PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Battle Bard Build



Volomon
2010-08-30, 02:09 PM
I have a fellow player really interested in playing a Bard. I have absolutely no knowledge of a bard and general consensus (in my group) is that Bards suck. However knowing that prestige classes make for the best optimization, I'm looking for what kinds of prestige really make a powerful build.

With my limited knowledge I have no idea what kind of builds are even possible. Ultimately I'm looking for a buffer/fighter kind of build. I'd appreciate it if anyone can direct me to a build or can put one together.

Eldariel
2010-08-30, 02:21 PM
I have a fellow player really interested in playing a Bard. I have absolutely no knowledge of a bard and general consensus (in my group) is that Bards suck. However knowing that prestige classes make for the best optimization, I'm looking for what kinds of prestige really make a powerful build.

With my limited knowledge I have no idea what kind of builds are even possible. Ultimately I'm looking for a buffer/fighter kind of build. I'd appreciate it if anyone can direct me to a build or can put one together.

Bards are rather amazing. Not Wizard-amazing, but they'll put a Barbarian or a Fighter to shame any day of the week. The keys to efficient Bards are:
Inspire Courage Optimization (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization) - Simple Song of the Heart [ECS], Inspirational Boost [SC] & Words of Creation [BoED] would give you +8 to hit and damage on level 8. Items can enhance it further, and Dragonfire Inspiration [DM] makes than +8d6 damage instead and stacks with normal Inspiration.
Snowflake Wardance [Frost] allows using Charisma for attacking when using light weapons. Great, especially with Slippers of Battle-Dancing [DMGII] and Travel Devotion [CC] where you get Cha to Hit twice & Damage once and can go to town.
Song of the White Raven [ToB] allows Bard 3-4/Warblade (or Crusader) 16-17 that has maxed Inspire Courage, martial maneuvers and so on.
Sublime Chord [CArc] gives you 9th level spells even if you lose few levels of casting, great for warrior/caster Bards and such. Gets few nice songs too.



Warrior Bard...well, Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) has its uses as a 2-3 level dip and so on. Mostly tho, Bard/Sublime Chord, straight Bard, or some such (can also acquire Divine Power through Arcane Disciple [CDiv] if necessary) works well enough.

mcl01
2010-08-30, 02:34 PM
Nitpicks:
1) Snowflake wardance works with 1-handed slashing weapons, not light weapons.
2) Slippers of Battle-Dancing specify that you must take a move action to gain it's benefits, so it doesn't work with travel devotion, which allows you to move as a swift action.

Otherwise, yeah. Bards are rather amazing.

Eldariel
2010-08-30, 02:52 PM
Nitpicks:
1) Snowflake wardance works with 1-handed slashing weapons, not light weapons.

Close but no cigar; it applies to any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand, be it one-handed, light or even two-handed if you can somehow wield it in one hand.


2) Slippers of Battle-Dancing specify that you must take a move action to gain it's benefits, so it doesn't work with travel devotion, which allows you to move as a swift action.

You're right. I forgot all about that little limitation; guess you need Lesser Celerity/Quicksilver Motion/similars to make it work. Swiftblade would work too, I suppose, and there's of course Polymorph-type effects but...yeah, it's not quite as easy as I remembered.

thorgrim29
2010-08-30, 03:24 PM
Hey, I'm currently making a character like that, and I was looking at dragonfire inspiration, what's the least feat intensive way to get sonic damage with dragonfire inspiration?

Greenish
2010-08-30, 03:28 PM
Hey, I'm currently making a character like that, and I was looking at dragonfire inspiration, what's the least feat intensive way to get sonic damage with dragonfire inspiration?Half-dragon bard. Hey, you didn't ask for the best way but for the least feat intensive. :smallcool:

thorgrim29
2010-08-30, 03:31 PM
Shoulda specified for a human.... Because, yeah, I was thinking about a human with a bard/warblade mix.

true_shinken
2010-08-30, 03:35 PM
Snowflake Wardance [Frost] allows using Charisma for attacking when using light weapons. Great, especially with Slippers of Battle-Dancing [DMGII] and Travel Devotion [CC] where you get Cha to Hit twice & Damage once and can go to town.

Actually, Snowflake Wardance requires one-handed slashing weapons.

EDIT: Nevermind, ninja'd.

Lyric Thaumathurge is a good PrC for bards, as well.

Haarkla
2010-08-30, 03:41 PM
I have a fellow player really interested in playing a Bard. I have absolutely no knowledge of a bard and general consensus (in my group) is that Bards suck. However knowing that prestige classes make for the best optimization, I'm looking for what kinds of prestige really make a powerful build.

With my limited knowledge I have no idea what kind of builds are even possible. Ultimately I'm looking for a buffer/fighter kind of build. I'd appreciate it if anyone can direct me to a build or can put one together.

For a Combat Bard. Good simple build.

Go St 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 14. You need good physical stats.

Take a level of Barbarian, gives you rage, hp and good weapon proficiencies. Wield a Greatsword.

Your best 1st lvl spells are Cure light wounds, Grease and Sleep.

Your best 2nd lvl spell is Invisibility. Alter self is a good if complex buff spell.

Optimator
2010-08-30, 03:53 PM
War Chanter is a good PrC if the rest of the party is melee focused as well.

One of my favorite things about a battle-bard (at least at higher levels) are the spells. Things like Bladeweave, Greater Mirror Image, Dolorous Blow, Snowsong, Emperyal Ecstasy, Greater Blink, Ray Deflection, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Allegro, Whirling Blade, Swift Fly, and Warcry are some of my favorites.

Dragonfire Inspiration and Snowflake Wardance go very well together, but boosting Inspire Courage and Power Attacking away all the bonus works very well too. Kind of a toss-up.

Optimator
2010-08-30, 04:03 PM
One of my favorite characters I've ever made was Half-Battle Dragon Warblade 4 Bard ~16 (currently he's only Warblade 3 Bard 13 but 4/16 is the plan). The strength buff goes a long way toward making the blows connect. The best part about the Battle Dragon heritage is the sonic damage along with the fluff lining up perfectly. We use LA buy-off so it's all good. Even without it, the Battle Dragon is tempting for the feat-free sonic damage and strength bonus.

My DM allows actions to be traded down like in Saga Edition so he can use Inspirational Boost (and the occasional Badge of Valor charge) and Song of the White Raven without conflict. Sometimes I'll throw in an Inspire COurage and a Dragonfire Inspiration on the same round. Throw in all the crazy gish-spells Bards can obtain and you have yourself a character who is an absolute blast to play and boosts his allies to high-heaven.

Charge in while in Leading The Charge stance, throw on Warcry for the chance to frighten, then follow up by seeing the enemy driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women.

Also, if it's a war campaign, use the spell Resounding Voice from HoB for maximum carnage. Drums Of War from the same book is a good spell as well IMO.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-30, 04:05 PM
Hey, I'm currently making a character like that, and I was looking at dragonfire inspiration, what's the least feat intensive way to get sonic damage with dragonfire inspiration?

You'd need Draconic Heritage, which would mean either Dragontouched or a Sorcerer level. A Sorcerer dip or Sorcerer with Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) could work out. Dragonfire Adept 1 gets Dragontouched for free and you can get a useful all-day buff like See the Unseen, Beguiling Influence, or Draconic Knowledge to use with Knowledge Devotion.

The best part about a DFI Bard is that you get all the bonuses at a relatively low level. You can get Melodic Casting and Dragonfire Inspiration at level 1, learn Inspirational Boost at level 2, take either Song of the Heart or Snowflake Wardance at level 3, and Words of Creation at 6. You could use two flaws to get Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage at 1st level, or use the one-level dip if you're not going to take Song of the Heart at 3rd. There is the possibility of using bonus feats from taint, detailed in Heroes of Horror, but that may not be agreeable with Words of Creation.

You could gradually gain (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) half-dragon, since you're not forced to (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) gain all three levels of that at the earliest opportunity. If you can buy off a level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) you could start with one level in half-dragon, gain three class levels, buy off that +1 level adjustment, gain the second half-dragon level, gain three class levels, buy it off, gain the third half-dragon level, gain three more class levels, and buy off that one to be at 9th level and behind by 18,000 XP with no level adjustment. You would eventually catch back up to everyone else, especially with a little help (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) or even Thought Bottle shenanigans. Your DFI wouldn't necessarily be anything but fire until you gained the entire half-dragon template, but this is probably the least costly way to get half-dragon. Get the feat Dragon Breath and take Sublime Chord to learn Blinding Breath and it'll be totally worth it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-08-30, 05:30 PM
A Silverbrow Human is considered to be a Dragontouched, saving you a feat.

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-30, 05:34 PM
A build I've been batting around in my head for a while is Marshal 1/Bard 7/Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) X.

The idea is a self-buffing lance charger. Mobile, devastating, and packs a variety of tricks for emergencies (fear, illusions etc). By boosting Cha as high as possible, you can really make good off that one marshal level. Also marshal gives weapon profs and ride.

Volomon
2010-08-30, 05:34 PM
Any body willing to lay out a step by step leveling guide? Assume total noobhood. Also the races that can be used should have no more than +1 or +2 LA. The books allowed are all Complete (arcane, divine, ect,.), Core, MIC, SpC, Frost.

Like Bard 4/X/X

cdrcjsn
2010-08-30, 05:38 PM
If you want a melee bard, then Power Attack is a must. As others have said, it's easy to get tons of bonuses to hit with a bard. You just need to find ways to turn that into damage.

The Harmonize spell is also very useful once you get to 9th level so you can throw multiple inspire greatness as move actions for the temp HPs.

Also, keep in mind that most of the defensive gish spells fighter/wizards use are available as well (mirror image, displacement, alter self, etc).

Arcane Strike is also nice to have (I think that's what it's called). It's a feat that allows you to trade spell slots for bonus damage.

The main limitation for bards is the low number of spells slots available. When I played a single classed melee bard, I found a way around that by getting spell preparation (the feat that allows spontaneous casters to memorize spells instead), and used pearls of power to recall commonly used spells (crafted via craft wondrous item).

UMD can also play a significant role for your bard. You can use scrolls of low level spells to make some really useful items. You can also use class restricted spells or items (imagine a bard wielding a holy avenger).

Keld Denar
2010-08-30, 05:53 PM
A Silverbrow Human is considered to be a Dragontouched, saving you a feat.

Not quite. Silverbrow Humans are considered to be Dragonblooded, not Dragontouched (hehehe, touched. Show me on the doll where the bad dragon touched you...).

Technically, a Silverbrow Human with just Dragonfire Inspiration would add fire damage, despite being distantly decendend from SILVER dragons that breath FROST. The only 2 things that can change this, by RAW, are by being a half-dargon, or taking the Draconic Herritage feat, which requires either the Dragontouched feat or 1 level in Sorcerer.

Doesn't matter since the OP doesn't seem to have access to Dragon Magic, where Dragonfire Inspiration is from. It seems he also doesn't have Tome of Battle, which cuts out any attempt at making a Bardblade or Bardscader. Maybe a Bardadin? Or just straight Bard.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-08-30, 06:03 PM
War Chanter would be a good option, then, as well as using a couple of ways to optimize IC without DFI. +x to hit/damage is still nothing to sneeze at. Particularly when you get more than you'd get out of a GMW, and stacks with it. If opponents AC is high enough that the bonus to-hit is generating more hits, it would actually be doing more damage than DFI, on average.

Then we get to War Chanter. Basically, the capstone means everyone effectively has full BAB. So go ahead and dip and blow your BAB, as long as someone in the party has a full BAB, so does everyone else. Including iterative attacks.

Keld Denar
2010-08-30, 06:08 PM
Actually, you could probably do some fun things with Harmonious Knight Paladin headed straight into Warchanter. HK Pally is in the Champions of Valor web enhancement (do a google search, you'll find it shortly), so you don't even have to OWN Champions of Valor. In fact, even if you did own Champions of Valor, its not in there. Its on the WotC site. Anyway, it gives you Inspire Courage and a couple other bardics, which are what you really need to get going. Then you could try to see if your DM will allow you to pick up Inspirational Boost as a Pally spell to go with the variant, so you can buff your IC. Boost up your IC with the power of lovesong, get a nice big 2-hander, and Power Attack for the house.

You won't have the more social aspects of Barddom, but you'll definitely max out the battle aspect.

Build would be pretty easy. Just straight Pally, or Pally5/Warchanter10/Pally+5 would be ok. Get a handful of Pearls of Power1 to recall your Inspirational Boost between combats and you'll be good to go all day.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-08-30, 06:15 PM
Actually, you could probably do some fun things with Harmonious Knight Paladin headed straight into Warchanter. HK Pally is in the Champions of Valor web enhancement (do a google search, you'll find it shortly), so you don't even have to OWN Champions of Valor. In fact, even if you did own Champions of Valor, its not in there. Its on the WotC site. Anyway, it gives you Inspire Courage and a couple other bardics, which are what you really need to get going. Then you could try to see if your DM will allow you to pick up Inspirational Boost as a Pally spell to go with the variant, so you can buff your IC. Boost up your IC with the power of lovesong, get a nice big 2-hander, and Power Attack for the house.

You won't have the more social aspects of Barddom, but you'll definitely max out the battle aspect.

Build would be pretty easy. Just straight Pally, or Pally5/Warchanter10/Pally+5 would be ok. Get a handful of Pearls of Power1 to recall your Inspirational Boost between combats and you'll be good to go all day.

You have a point, and you can also get Pal2 for Cha to all saves in the bargain, making it more difficult to hurt you.

The only problem is that the HK ACF doesn't advance IC beyond +1, so it's best as a dip.

El Dorado
2010-08-30, 06:31 PM
Lots of good suggestions here---I used many of them when playing my own bard. :smallwink:

Random suggestions:

Bread and butter spells: grease, inspirational boost, alter self, bladeweave, glitterdust, haste, displacement*, freedom of movement, cure critical wounds**.

*miss chance is awesome.
**While casting cures in combat is generally frowned upon, this spell saved my bacon more than once.

Mithral buckler: Good shield bonus and doesn't mess with your casting.

Crystal echoblade: My DM hated this weapon. Enough reason to get it. :smallsmile:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-08-30, 06:32 PM
Lots of good suggestions here---I used many of them when playing my own bard. :smallwink:

Random suggestions:

Bread and butter spells: grease, inspirational boost, alter self, bladeweave, glitterdust, haste, displacement*, freedom of movement, cure critical wounds**.

*miss chance is awesome.
**While casting cures in combat is generally frowned upon, this spell saved my bacon more than once.

Mithral buckler: Good shield bonus and doesn't mess with your casting.

Crystal echoblade: My DM hated this weapon. Enough reason to get it. :smallsmile:

Mirror Image > Displacement. 1:8 odds of being hit vs 1:2...

El Dorado
2010-08-30, 06:34 PM
Mirror Image > Displacement. 1:8 odds of being hit vs 1:2...

What he said. Forgot about that one.

Optimator
2010-08-30, 07:39 PM
Mirror images are still a finite resource though. The images have a longer duration though... Images still come out on top I think.

As for the Paladin/Bard stuff, I remember it can be fairly potent, but I don't remember the specifics. There's Initiate of Milil, Devoted Performer... I guess one wouldn't need anything else. Those two feats give you full bardic music progression tacked on top of Paladin. From Smite to Song seems redundant if one takes Devoted Performer. Cleric/Bard with Initiate of Milil also gets full Bardic Music advancement, but without Devoted Performer it doesn't get many uses per day. Are there more Bard/Paladin feats out there other than those three?

Heh, a Bard/Paladin with a Leadership-boosted Mount/cohort being song buffed and share-spells buffed seems like a potentially awesome build. Swapping for Charging Smite seems even better with the Bard music thrown on top (don't forget Rhino's Rush!). Win/win!

Anyone know of a solid cookie-cutter Bard/Paladin build? My first thought was Bard 1 / Paladin 19 or Bard 2 / Paladin 18 and focus on mounted shenanigans or do the charging holy cruise missile of doom (now with music).

true_shinken
2010-08-30, 08:03 PM
What he said. Forgot about that one.

You could just use BOTH.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-30, 08:21 PM
In a game I'm currently playing we have the following characters:
Savage Bard 6, DFI, Words of Creation, Wild Cohort, uses a shortbow and Glitterdust
OA Samurai 2/ Harmonious Knight Paladin 4, Wild Cohort
Cleric 5/ Divine Oracle 1, likes Summon Undead
Druid 6, Augment Summoning, Natural Bond, likes Mass Snake's Swiftness
Druid 6, VoP, Celestial Companion, Natural Bond, companion has VoP, Greenbound Summoning
Harmonious Knight Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4, Draconic Heritage: Sonic, DFI, Cloud of Knives

With the Badges of Valor we get +2 from the Samurai/Paladin, +7d6 fire from the Bard, and +2d6 sonic from the Paladin/Sorcerer. With four Magebred Warbeast animal companions/wild cohorts, four casters summoning/CCing/SoSing, and two primary melee characters, we've just been trampling through the Underdark obliterating everything we've come across. We fought a Young Adult Black Dragon (CR 9) at level 5, it used its breath attack on the four companions who all made the save with Evasion, it failed its save vs Glitterdust, and one of the wolf wild cohorts managed to trip it. Nobody in our party took even a single point of damage from it. Inspire Courage is awesome!

gorfnab
2010-08-30, 11:20 PM
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 7/ Paladin of Freedom 3/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Chamion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 7/ Fighter 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3

El Dorado
2010-08-30, 11:33 PM
You could just use BOTH.

You're MAD! :smallcool:

KitTheOdd
2010-08-31, 12:26 AM
I've got a Bard 4/Warblade 9/ Jade Phoenix Mage 5.

Without cheese we've got +6 Inspire Courage, 8th level manuevers (last 3 levels have been warblade), Mithril Full Plate of Speed (Battlecaster feat), mirror image, whirling blade, etc, etc.

He may not be "optimized" but he keeps up even in a party with a cheesy psionic head squisher, a Radiant Servant of Pelor, an archer with 3-rd party feats that is just sick, and some others.

Soranar
2010-08-31, 12:56 AM
The way I see it, a battle bard concentrates more on fighting then casting spells (and bard spells are not that strong to start with, unless you optimize them through sublime chord and the like)

but a Bard Warblade is basically a Warblade that also inspires courage (which makes and already decent class far stronger through song the of white raven)

I prefer warblade since you get better HP but a Crusader is just as good (smite also works well in charging builds)

If that's what you go for, then it all comes down to which breaking point you like and whether you intend to use a prestige class or not.

With nonmagical prestige classes I like the progression: Bard 1/Warblade 4/ Dread Pirate 9 (10 if leadership isn't banned)/ Warblade 6

a dread pirate's abilities (rally) is a free action
song of the white raven is a swift action
they stack (you also give diehard, you give your Charisma bonus to dodge to everyone and all kinds of other goodies if you go for 9 levels but you can stop at 7 if you don't think you'll need them or if you dump your charisma, you don't even need to cast at all)

the result is you inspire courage for free and you can still charge and make maneuver attacks all while pumping everyone in your party through your stance+ your inspire courage

the only downside is that rally (dread pirate's ability) is limited / day compared to the unlimited inspire courage

dextercorvia
2010-08-31, 11:19 AM
Technically, a Silverbrow Human with just Dragonfire Inspiration would add fire damage, despite being distantly decendend from SILVER dragons that breath FROST. The only 2 things that can change this, by RAW, are by being a half-dargon, or taking the Draconic Herritage feat, which requires either the Dragontouched feat or 1 level in Sorcerer.




There is one more way. There is a sidebar/footnote on page 18 of Dragon Magic which says that Dragon Shamans use their totem dragon for any feat which refers to Draconic Heritage. Unfortunately, Dragon Shamans don't get Battle Dragons as a totem option. But it is a feat free way to change your DFI to something like Cold or Acid. It's probably not a lot worse than dipping DFA.