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Brainstomper
2010-08-30, 02:37 PM
when you baleful polymorph 2 PCs into monkeys and then have one caged and tormented in the NPC's Zoo of Stupid Heroes.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 02:42 PM
Eh. I'm not big on using save or lose on PCs.

Another_Poet
2010-08-30, 02:43 PM
I however approve of this tactic.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 02:45 PM
As do I. The bad guys have access to all the abilities that the characters do, so why shouldn't they use them?

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 02:51 PM
I don't use them as a PC either, and my players tend not to.

Save or suck, yes. Save or be dead or close enough thereto? Not so much.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 02:55 PM
I don't use them as a PC either, and my players tend not to.

Save or suck, yes. Save or be dead or close enough thereto? Not so much.

It's all a matter of perspective. I'd use SoD's in a heartbeat, on either side of the DM screen, if it's a viable tactic.

Kaww
2010-08-30, 02:59 PM
Anything with which they hit you they may expect to be hit with.
A game should be fair. If not it is neither challenging, nor fun.
You should BP them if they use it on NPCs.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 03:02 PM
Well, yes. If players are using something, I will use it. They haven't been, though, and I have no need for it.

DaMullet
2010-08-30, 03:06 PM
I try not to use any tactic that can't be easily undone, unless it's a major battle. I would Baleful Polymorph a PC, but only if they were high enough level to change him back without some massive quest; With the exception of death (sometimes), things that target a player should take them out of the encounter, but not the session. I don't usually have monsters take the time to CdG downed PCs, but they're not against Flesh to Stoning them, assuming I can insert a scroll of Stone to Flesh into the treasure at the end.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 03:11 PM
Personally I prefer the extra lethality provided by SoDs. Don't get too attached to that piece of paper. I try to play to the strengths of the BBEGs. If they can use a SoD, and it would be effective in that circumstance, why wouldn't they use it? Do they not want to win? BBEGs are people (or monsters) with hopes and dreams too, and every right to defend them at their maximum level of ability, don't you think?

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 03:17 PM
Personally I prefer the extra lethality provided by SoDs. Don't get too attached to that piece of paper.

Piece of paper? What about character that one put work into making, and then was developing over time as the game continued? It's perfectly valid to get attached to that.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 03:26 PM
Piece of paper? What about character that one put work into making, and then was developing over time as the game continued? It's perfectly valid to get attached to that.

But yet, a player shouldn't care about all the hard work the DM put into making that BBEG? What about a recurring one that has developed over several adventures throughout the campaign?

If a BBEG is of an appropriate challenge level, there is a chance the characters will die. If the BBEG has access to a SoD, why wouldn't he (as a character) use it on the players to defend himself? The players would use one to defend themselves, right?

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 03:26 PM
The BBEG's death is typically expected, given the narrative role. Less so for a PC.

dsmiles
2010-08-30, 03:29 PM
The BBEG's death is typically expected, given the narrative role. Less so for a PC.

Less expected, but just as likely. When you first watched Armageddon, did you, in the beginning of the movie, expect Bruce Willis' character to die? When learning about the Alamo in history class, when you heard about it for the first time, were you shocked when the 'heroes' died? Realism. Sometimes the bad guys win.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-30, 03:30 PM
My willingness to one-splat PCs tends to vary directly on how well-developed they are. Someone who takes the time to make a backstory and RP has a thicker Plot Shield than one who has no backstory or RP ability.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 03:31 PM
Less expected, but just as likely. When you first watched Armageddon, did you, in the beginning of the movie, expect Bruce Willis' character to die? When learning about the Alamo in history class, when you heard about it for the first time, were you shocked when the 'heroes' died? Realism. Sometimes the bad guys win.
Why would I care about realism? This is heroic fantasy.

Bruce Willis died in a heroic sacrifice. That's a far cry from a random spell during a fight. The Alamo could also be considered a heroic last stand. Again, very different from just taking a bullet--a SoD spell--in the middle of a fight.

Caphi
2010-08-30, 03:36 PM
But yet, a player shouldn't care about all the hard work the DM put into making that BBEG? What about a recurring one that has developed over several adventures throughout the campaign?

If the BBEG dies early because the players planned and orchestrated a clever strategy to trap him or attack him in the weakness, I'd let that pass.

If the BBEG dies early because he failed his saves against someone's phantasmal killer, that's dull.

If the PCs die early because the BBEG decided to finger of death all of them on grounds of "defending himself", that's also dull.

That's my first point. My second one is a pretty easy one. BBEGs are generally higher level than the players, better informed, and, perhaps most importantly, better prepared. Firing a save-or-die at a BBEG is a long shot, and may be outright impossible if the GM rolls behind a screen. For exactly the same reason, firing a save-or die at a player is generally saying "let's play Russian Roulette" with your entire character.

Basically, your argument seems to be putting a higher priority on the BBEG's survival with respect to what resources he should "fairly" be able to use. It is my contention that not only does the BBEG not need explicit higher priority, but the principle of supporting player agency suggests that the players' characters should have a higher priority.

Esser-Z
2010-08-30, 03:47 PM
For protecting the BBEG, defenses are the key, not overwhelming defenses. He can cast things that are impractical for players, because he need not be prepared for an adventuring day.

And, of course, you can use set pieces. Disrupt the ritual, bring down the ceiling, destroy the demon bound to him, and so forth.