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View Full Version : Ideas for a lvl 5 zombie apocalypse character (3.5)



fracas
2010-08-31, 04:31 AM
As the title says. All books allowed, but the DM did put the kibosh on my original idea for a teleport-happy warlock because it didn't fit the world (teleporting breaks dungeons).

I've got several ideas that sound appealing, just need some help deciding and setting up a build. My CO skills are a bit out of date...

Note that this setting is full-on zombie apocalypse. We're part of an underground thieves' guild that survived. Lots of sewers and such (so no large races/minions/cohorts). I only have one regular companion, who is a weakly optimized gloaming rogue4. Her only big saving grace is that she can sneak attack undead. The campaign is set up for 4 players and as such is high mortality - thus, high-powered builds are great, bordering on mandatory.

My current favored ideas are:

-Monk1/Pally2/Favored Soul w/ practiced caster, possibly into Malconvoker. High saves, especially Fort, are really important for obvious zombie-related reasons.
-Dread Necromancer, no idea on a PrC for that one.
-Changeling Paladin/Warshaper/Exotic Weapon Master possibly Trollblooded.
-Cleric focused on necromancy with buff/melee secondary goals. This is a great setting to justify some DMM shenanigans. Is there a better way to build a cleric to fight undead?
-Gnome artificer. Blasty wands blast zombies good. Too bad it's a glass cannon and would probably get pinned down or ambushed pretty fast especially since we have no party tank.
-Ranger w/ undead favored enemy, possibly ACFs to aid in undead killing. Probably split feats between bow and TWF to keep versatility.

Primary goals:

-Must be a reliable out-of-combat healer, ie be able to use a wand of cure light or whatever. This probably means divine spell access.
-MUST have a high Fort save... even my previous druid was failing Fort saves due to the sheer number of them.
-Area effect a plus.
-MUST have high survivability. Favored Soul elemental bonuses/DR/saves would be a huge help. Good touch AC and random immunities never hurt either.
-Must be able to operate independently for extended periods. The rogue needs regular healing and the more my character can live without it the better (limited resources). We're frequently away from base for several days or simply encounter so much combat that my druid was out of spells very quickly and depending on animal companion and a mobile wild shape to stay alive... until he got pinned down by a wraith.
-Cannot be a traditional tank. We occasionally need to swim and deal with tight spaces. Fullplate is a death sentence.
-Wonky builds, monster races, etc are fine with DM approval.
-Undead-targeted abilities are a big plus.
-No large races. We spend too much time in small sewers.
-Must have some way of dealing with less common threats like incorporeal creatures. This probably means at least half caster, divine considering the need for healing.
-Must be playable and powerful starting at level 5. If he's weak at 5, he won't reach 6.

Well, there you have it. A tall order, especially for a lvl 5 character (though close to lvl 6) but I'm confident it's doable. If nothing else, this is a good place to throw out a bunch of all-the-wall, borderline-abusive builds... anything short of planar shepherd brokenness is welcome.

I'd particularly like feedback on the dread necromancer since I'm mostly unfamiliar with it and the Monk/Pal/FS since I know the build isn't generally optimal but our circumstances might make it worth it. Thoughts?

fracas
2010-08-31, 04:42 AM
Forgot to mention, spiked chain for tripping is an obvious choice for melee-happy characters but I've been pondering a charger build as well. Leaping charge, mounted charge with a nifty mount, something based on a less ridiculous ubercharger... possibilities abound...

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-31, 05:33 AM
Damn full on zombie apocalypse? I'd say... optimize the HELL out of a cleric... I don't know what's the best early 'fight a whole ton of undead' cleric at low levels, but a cleric cheesed to the hilt seems mandatory.

Caliphbubba
2010-08-31, 07:28 AM
Have you considered a Dragonfire Adept? I think it would cover a lot of what you're asking for. All of it's DCs are con based, so you can pump it out the ying-yang. they have UMD in class. a reusable AoE breath weapon, built in armor bonus via scales, a high fort save, plus all the nifty invocations. take Entangling Exhalation as one of your feats, and you've got a strong battlefield control option too.

you can take a level of Dragon Shaman too maybe for the Vigor Aura for some healing. *shrug*

Edit: You might be able to take the Vigor Aura from Dragon Shaman from the feat Draconic Aura instead of taking a level of Dragon Shaman. I think I'd do that.

Dragon Wings might be cool too, get the improved version at 6th level for non-magical flight.

JeminiZero
2010-08-31, 11:33 AM
Edit: You might be able to take the Vigor Aura from Dragon Shaman from the feat Draconic Aura instead of taking a level of Dragon Shaman. I think I'd do that.

Most DMs intepret that the Vigor Aura cannot be obtained through the Draconic Aura feat, since the Vigor Aura is not listed among the auras in the book. However, you should ask your DM if you can, because it helps take care of a boatload of healing. Even if he disallows Vigor Aura from feat, you could still pick it up by splashing 1 level in Dragon Shaman.

A more readily available alternative to the Vigor Aura is the Touch of Healing reserve feat (Complete Champion), but that requires to be able to cast level 2 cure spells from your own slots, which mostly means a divine caster.

Don't forget about Bards. CLW is on their spell list. Additionally, they are arcane casters and can qualify for Precocious Apprentice. You can even use Precocious Apprentice to pick up CMW, and then use that to power Touch of Healing, with just a 1 bard splash. More feat hungry than a Dragon Shaman splash, but you retain the ability to use wands. Watch out for negative levels though, since that strips off your one level 2 spell.

Look up the Warforged Race. Immunity to exhaustion, nausea, starvation, poison, disease, suffocation and energy drain will make your life much easier. However there is a feat tax to get optimal armor, and healing will be a problem unless you have some means of unlimited partial healing (Touch of Healing or Vigor Aura) or unlimited full healing (Tomb Tainted Soul + Dread Necromancer or Setting Sun Ninja).

Consider the Amphibious Template in Stormwrack. Humanoid only, lose 2 Dex in exchange for the ability to breath water, might help solve your drowning issues.

Greenish
2010-08-31, 11:33 AM
Have you considered a Dragonfire Adept? I think it would cover a lot of what you're asking for. All of it's DCs are con basedThe breath weapon is con-based. The invocations are cha-based.

I wouldn't bother blowing feats into non-magic flight unless the setting includes lots of AMF generator zombies and dispel-zombies.

Caliphbubba
2010-08-31, 11:58 AM
Most DMs intepret that the Vigor Aura cannot be obtained through the Draconic Aura feat, since the Vigor Aura is not listed among the auras in the book. However, you should ask your DM if you can, because it helps take care of a boatload of healing. Even if he disallows Vigor Aura from feat, you could still pick it up by splashing 1 level in Dragon Shaman.

I wondered about that. I thought it might fly because the feat itself just says "Draconic Aura" and the auras for DS are labeled the same.

to Greenish good catch on the invocations being cha-based.

still think Dragonfire Adept is a strong choice for this type of campaign. maybe a Dragonborn Water Orc Dragonfire Adept for extra crunchy cheese, and to help with the drowning too

Greenish
2010-08-31, 12:04 PM
maybe a Dragonborn Water Orc Dragonfire Adept for extra crunchy cheese, and to help with the drowning tooWater orcs can't actually breathe water, or even hold their breath any longer than other races, and even if they could, they'd lose it to the bahamut process. Still a decent choice at +4 con, though the +4 strength doesn't do much for a DFA.

For a zombie apocalypse, I'd probably go with warforged crusader. Only weaklings need to sleep, eat and breathe.

Caliphbubba
2010-08-31, 12:14 PM
Water orcs can't actually breathe water, or even hold their breath any longer than other races, and even if they could, they'd lose it to the bahamut process. Still a decent choice at +4 con, though the +4 strength doesn't do much for a DFA.

For a zombie apocalypse, I'd probably go with warforged crusader. Only weaklings need to sleep, eat and breathe.

I meant more for for the swim speed rather than the breathing water. I believe they keep the swim speed, and the ability to take a 10 on a swim check.

Ajadea
2010-08-31, 12:40 PM
Cleric of Pelor with Sun/Healing Domains, off the top of my head. Full-on apocalypse means that your cure spells are both healing and artillery, and you can prepare a lot of hide from undead spells too.

Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterHalflings) or Enhanced Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) Variant Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) 5, if your Wild Shape is that hindering. Kobolds (according to a fluff page from RoTD) eat anything, including dirt, bugs, and gravel. No rations. Ever. As a bonus, you could totally whine at your GM to let the kobold ride it's eagle companion. Flying tiny kobold is awesome.

If you want a really weird tank, what about a Tomb-Tainted monk/dread necromancer with Ascetic Mage? Charisma to AC instead of full plate is not a bad thing, and Tomb-Tainted Soul means that you are healed by negative energy like an undead, so Charnel Touch pulls you back to full HP out of combat no problem.

Is this a forum game or a real life game?

subject42
2010-08-31, 12:41 PM
A binder with the feat that improves your Binder level would get you access to both Karsus and Buer. That would give you infinite out of combat healing as well as several bonuses to UMD and magical workings.

Additionally, it would give you two floating bonuses that could be used to boost saves, hp, DR, or energy resistance.

It also gets a bonus feat by level 5.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-31, 02:31 PM
Races of Water may get a swim speed, but Races of Air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir) don't have to breathe. They're not limited to the examples given, i.e. you could have an Air Human who gets all the typical Human racial abilities but also gains the general traits of all air races, including the Breathless trait.

I'd go with an Air Human Cleric of Pelor, Sun and Healing domains, PH2 ACF for Healing. If you can use flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) get Extend Spell and Persistent Spell with DMM: Persist. Take Improved Turning and Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), and you'll need to get Extra Turning at 6th. Go Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 5/ Morninglord 9, Radiant Servant is in CD and Morninglord is in PGtF.

Your Item Familiar should start as a +1 Heavy Mace which you pay full price for, and then you can upgrade it yourself for half price to a Rod of Defiance in MIC. That ends up costing you only 4,812 gp and 200 XP, but you'll be getting a 10% XP bonus just for having it. Your other items should include a Sun Disk of Pelor (CC, 100 gp), an Ephod of Authority (MIC, 800 gp), a Healing Belt (MIC, 750 gp), a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC, 1000 gp), Full Plate (1500 gp), a Heavy Steel Shield (20 gp), and 18 gp remaining for mundane supplies.

Hopefully you'll have enough turning attempts to DMM: Persist a Mass Lesser Vigor to give the entire party Fast Healing 1 for 24 hours, so a short break between encounters tops off everyone for free. At 7th you'll get plenty of Greater Turnings to deal with the undead, which will be treated as 4 HD lower thanks to your Rod of Defiance. Try to pick up Night Sticks (LM), a Phylactery of Undead Turning, a Lesser Rod of Extend for Magic Vestment x2, a standard Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed (only 9,000 gp as per DMG), a Scepter of the Netherworld (LM), and a Circlet of Persuasion (turning checks are Cha-based checks). Try to save up enough gold to put a special purpose and dedicated power on your Item Familiar at 10th level, at half price of course. I'd make its purpose to destroy undead, and give it the 10d6 Lightning Bolt at will, or the 10d6 Fireball at will if you think wouldn't do much collateral damage to your party. Remember that being intelligent the item gets actions on its turn, and it would activate its dedicated power on any undead it's aware of with no effort on your part, and it will only cost you 30,000 gp and 2400 XP to give it that.

dgnslyr
2010-08-31, 07:50 PM
Martial Spirit, a 1st level Crusader stance, gives infinite out-of-battle healing. It heals 2 hp to you or an ally within 30 ft whenever you hit something. Just find something to smack, or use a tiny weapon that deals 1 damage, and you can heal as much as you want. Spike Chain for controlling sounds fun, too.

true_shinken
2010-08-31, 08:15 PM
Mystic Ranger. Sword of Arcane Order. Wild Shape.

Go to town.

fracas
2010-08-31, 08:37 PM
Great options guys. I like the PH2 ACF for cleric, but what the point of applying it to the healing domain? I can convert my spells to heals anyway.

EDIT: you did link me to the item familiar rules. My bad. Request deleted.

I'm also wondering about favored soul vs cleric. Seems to me like cleric's defining advantage is DMM/persistent buff abuse, which is nice but won't be horribly powerful until later levels. Also, at the moment we can't buy any items over 800gp due to limited resources (we can start with better equipment using WBL but not purchase in-game) - so no crazy nightstick shenanigans.

Favored soul, on the other hand, meets or beats the cleric in pretty much everything aside from casting and DMM. Spontaneous healing isn't that much better than carrying a wand of cure light until I get Heal for massive undead nuking. FS also gets that huge pile of spells per day which are actually useful with the amount of combat we routinely see between rests. Tack on Pal2 and Mnk1 and it'll have ridiculous defense against everything but touch attacks. Actually... does the Monk AC/Wis to AC bonus apply to touch attacks? Air race template would keep me from drowning but no need for armor would actually make me decently mobile. Tempting. I don't suppose there's any way to get those crazy save bonuses and such without losing caster levels via ACFs or whatnot?

EDIT: Warforged vs Air race. Hmm... Warforged is obviously less cheesy since the air race is something for nothing whereas warforged makes you lose the human feat in exchange for nice defenses. I'd lean toward warforged if for no other reason than to avoid cheese. Also, we may be hitting the underdark soon and I don't really want -2 saves vs duergar or umber hulks or whatever is waiting for us there...

What book is Binder in?


If you want a really weird tank, what about a Tomb-Tainted monk/dread necromancer with Ascetic Mage? Charisma to AC instead of full plate is not a bad thing, and Tomb-Tainted Soul means that you are healed by negative energy like an undead, so Charnel Touch pulls you back to full HP out of combat no problem.

Is this a forum game or a real life game?

Real life game. Where do I find Tomb-Tainted Monk and Ascetic Mage? Cha to AC sounds great - like I said, I'd like to avoid the heavy metal approach if possible. What's Charnel Touch?

Where is Dragonfire Adept? If the invocations are cha-based perhaps it would mesh well with Favored Soul/Paladin?

Thanks all!

subject42
2010-08-31, 08:56 PM
Binder is in Tome of Magic. It's the best thing to come out of the book.

Also, you'll eventually get to bind a vestige that grants you pretty good turn undead capabilities.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-31, 09:56 PM
DMM isn't exactly necessary apart from the one spell I mentioned, Mass Lesser Vigor, which you can Persist every day from the start. You can pick up Craft Rod at 9th level and make your own Night Sticks if you want more out of it, but realistically you'll want to be using your turning attempts to one-shot one encounter after another with Extra Greater Turning from Radiant Servant. Apart from that just save your wealth to dump it into your Item Familiar later on.

Duergar, Umber Hulks, etc. don't have the earth subtype, so air races wouldn't take a -2 to saves against their abilities and spells. You'll only be at a disadvantage against spells with the [earth] subtype (example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm)) and creatures with the [earth] subtype (example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xorn.htm)). It won't even matter except in a very, very small fraction of your encounters, even if you're in the Underdark.

fracas
2010-09-01, 12:17 AM
I don't have ToM; will have to see if the DM does.

Remaining questions:
1. FS vs Cleric?
2. Air race vs warforged? Warforged seems superior aside from the loss of human feat and skill points, especially if combined with unarmored defenses to AC (no need to take a feat for optimal armor). I'm also concerned that clerics tend to have awfully low touch AC... especially considering that it was incorporeal undead that killed my previous druid (a wraith).
3. Dragonfire Adept and Binder both sound interesting (assuming I can get access to Tome of Magic). When do all these ideas start to take off? If any of them are going to be really potent around level 5-8ish that would be optimal since I doubt if my character will survive more than 3 levels even with high optimization. If any don't really take off till later levels I'll just save the idea for my next character...
4. No dice on adding Pally2 or Monk1 for extra defense? I'm also eyeballing Champion of Corellon as an off-tank beater that retains high mobility and touch AC. Thoughts on that?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-01, 03:33 AM
Your highest touch AC tank will probably be in heavy armor with the feat Deflective Armor in Races of Stone. It's a psionic feat so it requires either a psionic race, psionic class, or spending a feat on Wild/Natural Talent. It also requires Heavy Armor Optimization, which requires a +4 BAB, so to have it starting out you'll probably need to go something like Fighter 4/ Psychic Warrior 1, you'll get bonus feats at exactly the earliest levels you can qualify for those.

A Wraith has 5 HD and +2 Turn Resistance, effectively 7 HD for Turn Undead. That Cleric of Pelor counts as 7th level for turning, and the Wraith will count as -4 within 30 feet of him. Without even using a Greater Turning you'll destroy it in a single attempt guaranteed. The best defense is a good offense, and in this case you're guaranteed to outright destroy it in a single shot. Turn Undead doesn't suffer an incorporeal miss chance, you don't need to make an attack roll. In an undead heavy campaign, a turn undead focused Cleric can strut around confident that nothing stands a chance against him.

Once you've gained one level, at 6th level, you'll count as 8th for turning, and a Greater Wraith at CR 11 has 16 HD. Within 30 feet it will count as 12 HD, so a Greater Turning and a decent roll on the turning check and you'll outright destroy that in a single attempt. In just a few more levels, once you may actually start encountering those, you'll be able to do more Greater Turnings than your number of daily encounters should be, and even with an average roll on the turning check you'll succeed in destroying that.

Add to that 24-hour Fast Healing 1 for your entire party, from the time the character enters play, and you've got the party's new MVP.

JeminiZero
2010-09-01, 04:00 AM
Note that the above only applies while you still have turn attempts. From the sound of your DM it wouldn't surprise me if he decided to send 20 Wraiths at you, one at a time, just so you'll run out of turns. :smallyuk:

Greenish
2010-09-01, 04:05 AM
Remaining questions:
1. FS vs Cleric?Hmm, Favored Soul's MAD, spontaneous casting a level behind cleric's, FA lacks Know: Religion for identifying (and knowledge devotion vs.) undead, FA gets no domains or turn undead…

Oh sorry, was there a question there? :smallcool:

fracas
2010-09-01, 04:06 AM
Yeowch. And to think I figured turn undead was sub-optimal for non-DMM uses. There's my go-to area effect for zombie crawls... now watch, we'll get sent to fight mind flayers in the underdark for the next 10 levels :p

The high touch AC suggestion you mentioned is one I'm familiar with; was actually pondering doing something alone those lines as a modified horizon tripper. I just keep going the caster route instead... combination of nobody else wanting to play them and generally high utility I guess. Not sure I can fit it into this Cleric build though; it's already feat-starved.

Opinion on air human (worried about it being banned as cheese) vs warforged? Is favored soul just no good for a build like this? Elemental resistance, DR, three good saves, and gobs of spontaneous casting is a pretty tempting list... adding in free WF/WS is just icing.

I guess after those questions are cleared up I'm ready to build. Woohoo!

fracas
2010-09-01, 04:21 AM
Greenish - just saw your post after I hit Reply. All valid criticisms of the FS, and lacking k.religion is a sting in an undead/underdark campaign. It already cost my druid some useful information.

I don't see a huge problem with MAD. Considering how many spells a FS gets, it seems pretty save to optimize for DCs rather than extra spells. Items should be enough to get me at least one extra spell at each level by the time I get access to that level. Also, having so many spontaneous slots means I can re-buff as needed. All that DMM persist is great until I get hit with a dispel... then not so much. With FS I can happily re-buff after combat and never worry about spell selection.

And you have to admit the stuff they get is pretty darn good. Free energy resistance against half the elements? DR/silver or cold iron? Three good saves? Cha synergy with Paladin for completely ridiculous saves? Free proficiency, focus, and specialization in deity's weapon? Cleric BAB? Lots of free feats in stark contrast to cleric DMM builds? At very least, it completely curb stomps the Sorc. It may not have the offensive oomph of a cleric, but it's a pretty impressive tank without needing a complicated build or heavy item support or cheese dependency. Give credit where due :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-01, 04:39 AM
Note that the above only applies while you still have turn attempts. From the sound of your DM it wouldn't surprise me if he decided to send 20 Wraiths at you, one at a time, just so you'll run out of turns. :smallyuk:

The build I posted gets +3 turning attempts from the Reliquary Holy Symbol on top of 3 + Cha bonus. Assuming an easy Cha 14, that's eight turning attempts, seven of which are spent on DMM: Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor. He probably won't face another wraith right away, and he already has a +1 weapon so at least he has a chance of hitting incorporeal creatures. Don't forget he gets Searing Light in his 3rd level domain slot, and positive energy such as Cure spells don't suffer the incorporeal 50% miss chance. Once he does run into a wraith or similar opponent, he could hold off on using that turning attempt and instead just Protection from Evil himself and duke it out. It would still need a really poor roll to miss him, but he'd get a +2 vs the DC 14 Fort save to avoid its Con drain, so he should only fail on a poor roll.

Save that turning attempt for a multiple creature encounter, and hopefully he'll hit 6th level before the DM realizes what he's capable of. At that point he'll get Extra Turning and have at least five turning attempts per day, one of which can be a Greater Turning which should destroy anything the DM is willing to throw at them. They'll likely face the strongest undead creature that he thinks they could beat, and it gets destroyed by a Greater Turning. Upon learning that he can do that only once/day (at this level), they'll encounter another one and defeat it the traditional way. That's double the loot and double the XP for an encounter much higher than their party level, so it will power level them and he'll get even more powerful turning abilities that much faster. Once he gets Extra Greater Turning at 7th level he can set about eradicating the entire undead plague, and in just a few days game time they'll be high enough level to take on anything.

I should mention that the spontaneous casting ACF for the Healing domain is good because you get more options than just Cure spells, so you won't have to spend prepared spell slots on Heal.

Greenish
2010-09-01, 07:06 AM
And you have to admit the stuff they get is pretty darn good. Free energy resistance against half the elements? DR/silver or cold iron? Three good saves? Cha synergy with Paladin for completely ridiculous saves? Free proficiency, focus, and specialization in deity's weapon?Pretty minor stuff, compared to having faster casting progression and prepared casting (clerics have plenty of situational spells you wouldn't want to waste a known spell slot for). Cleric focusing on wisdom pumps both save DCs and daily spells up.

And then, you get everything cleric gives on the first level, so you'll PrC, PrC, PrC. I agree DMM can eat quite a few feats, but even without it I'd say cleric is better than favored soul, and cleric + PrCs is much better.

At very least, it completely curb stomps the Sorc.Actual class features are nice, but I'd say sorcerer has at least a bit better spell list (and runestaves, om nom nom). Without PrCs, a favored soul might be a bit better off, but not by much.


So yeah, I'm not a big fan of favored souls (even though I usually prefer spontaneous casters), but they are a strong class, no denying it.

fracas
2010-09-01, 07:09 AM
Very convincing post, Biff :D

Despite my temptation to use FS as a highly defensive poor lazy man's cleric (no extensive spell list to deal with), I don't see a good Ref save and resistances as being worth it.

Are you still endorsing air human or is there a good case for warforged or some +Wis race? Of course, with a full caster no LA is highly preferred...

I doubt if flaws are acceptable but I'll ask. In the meantime, how's this look?

Cleric5 (Mlord/RS coming at 6+)
Abilities: Str 15 (+1 = 16), Dex 13, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 14
Domains: Sun, Heal
ACF: Spontaneous Heal domain
H: Extend Spell
1: Persistent Spell
3: DMM: Persist
6: Extra Turning? Improved Turning? Item Familiar? Postpone DMM till 6th to get one of these sooner?

I could put a 14 in Str or Con and bump my Cha to 16 but I don't think I can justify that for a single extra turn attempt.

Items... depends on whether I should prioritize Item Familiar over DMM Persist. I'm thinking yes, since I'll otherwise be stuck with a so-so weapon at best, and extra XP is super-candy.

fracas
2010-09-01, 07:13 AM
Greenish - Ok, you and Biff convinced me. I will play one at some point though. With ability scores to stats left and right through Monk and Pally and Champion of Correllon and absolutely no levels left for FS... but man will he be hard to hit. :p

Quietus
2010-09-01, 07:35 AM
I'd pick up the DMM : Persist early. Reason being : If you don't have it, that's 7 additional Turns you get per day. Either you're not going to need them (and thus have wasted at least one feat on persist, possibly two if you don't use extend), or you'll blow through all of them on undead, setting up expectations with both yourself and your DM.. which you'll then dash against the rocks at level 6. When your DM expects you to be using 7+ more turn attempts per day, and you've only got one, that doesn't go over so well. Better to drop fast healing 1 on everyone now, and expand your options later.

fracas
2010-09-01, 08:38 AM
Makes sense. Of course, an early rod of defiance makes sense too. Decisions, decisions...

Also, is the Sun domain really that good? A single greater turning is nice, but it's only 1/day and the spell selection is only decent. Heat metal is meh. Endure elements is scroll fodder. Searing light is nice vs undead... but I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better served by Good or Glory? +2 on turn attempts and +1d6 damage isn't bad. Neither is a bunch of fun abjurations at +1 CL with Good. I could persist a pretty powerful magic circle against evil...

And finally it occurs to me that the wording on Plant and Elemental domains says that you get 3+Cha turning attempts vs Plants or Elemental subtype critters or whatever. The wording sounds like those turning attempts might be in addition to the turn undead attempts... and DMM wording doesn't sound picky about what kind of turn attempt you fuel it with. So could I take, say, Plant and Earth domains and go around with a total of 9+3xCon mod turning attempts and persist like crazy? There's probably some reason that doesn't work or it'd be all over the forums, but I'm not seeing it.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-01, 10:15 AM
Dragonfire Adept is in Dragon Magic.

Tomb-tainted Soul is a feat from Libris Mortis I believe. It lets you be healed by negative energy instead of positive.

Charnel Touch is the main touch attack a Dread Necromancer gets. It deals negative energy damage at will.

At this point I'm just answering the questions you asked that I didn't see answered, the others have probably better ideas than what I suggeste, tho I do think a Draonfire Adept would do pretty good in a campaign like this...just not as well as a DMM: Persist cleric :-)

Edit: Consider getting the Planning Domain...that gives Extend Spell as it's granted power doesn't it? freeing up a feat for extra turning early.

Person_Man
2010-09-01, 12:05 PM
Aquatic Dwarf Whatever 2/Incarnate 3

Aquatic Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm) gets a Swim speed and Con/Str bonus.

Whatever should be Rogue if you want Skills and Evasion, Crusader if you want unlimited healing from Divine Spirit, Totemist if you want to tear zombies apart with 6 natural weapons and pounce, or more Incarnate if you want to focus on Necrocarnum Circlet and Vitality Belt.

Incarnate gets soulmelds. Notable options:

Crystal Helm: Adds Deflection bonus to AC. When bound to Crown, melee attacks all gain Force descriptor.

Keeneye Lenses: Spot bonus. When bound to Brow, grants See Invisibility.

Mage's Spectacles: UMD bonus. High enough that you can hit the DC 15 needed to activate wands by level 5ish pretty easily if you don't dump Cha, or mid levels if you do.

Necrocarnum Circlet: Detect Undead at will. When bound to Crown, you can animate dead at will. Although you are limited to 1 necrocarnum zombie at a time and it's HD are limited by your Incarnate level (making this a better option for strait Incarnates)

Impulse Boots: Uncanny Dodge. Evasion when bound to Feet chakra.

Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6*essentia invested) retributive damage whenever someone hits you, so 3d6 at level 3.

Apparition Ribon: Blind Fight. At high ECL you can bind it to your Throat to gain the Incorporeal subtype for limited rounds per day.

Vitality Belt: Meldshaper level * essentia invested bonus hit points. So Incarnate 5 * 3 essentia = 15 bonus hit points. Incarnate 13 * 5 essentia = 65 bonus hit points. A huge deal, especially when you consider that Incarnates tend to have sky high hit points and defense.

Astral Vembraces: 2 + (2*essentia invested) DR/magic. So DR 6/magic at level 3. Very useful at low levels, though not so much at higher levels.

Spellward Shirt: 5 + (4 * essentia invested) Spell Resistance. So SR 13 at level 3. But I've seen this buffed up to SR 40+ at high levels.

This is pretty much the tip of the iceberg though. You can get area of effect attacks, buff almost any Skill, etc. All soulmelds are "all day" effects unless dispelled.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-01, 02:28 PM
You have to get the Sun domain for Radiant Servant, which at its first level allows you to use Greater Turning 3 + Cha bonus times per day instead of just once/day. Heat Metal makes opponents drop their weapons, because logically you wouldn't just hang onto a searing red hot sword. There's nothing that says they have to drop it, but in-character there's not really any alternative. You'll get the Glory domain for free at Radiant Servant 5, and you can always swap those out for Cure spells. Divine Metamagic does specifically say you can only use the energy from turning or rebuking undead, not plants or elementals.

You have to get Improved Turning before taking Morninglord, and you have to get Extra Turning before taking Radiant Servant. If you can't use flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) then you won't have enough feats to also include DMM: Persist. I'd originally assumed a human with two flaws, but without flaws you'll need Improved Turning at 1st, Item Familiar at 3rd, and Extra Turning at 6th. If you go with Air Human you could move Extra Turning to 1st and get Touch of Healing from Complete Champion at 6th, or get Extend Spell in preparation for DMM: Persist. Definitely start out with Item Familiar, otherwise you won't even be able to afford the Rod of Defiance.

fracas
2010-09-01, 05:48 PM
Dragonfire Adept is in Dragon Magic.

Tomb-tainted Soul is a feat from Libris Mortis I believe. It lets you be healed by negative energy instead of positive.

Charnel Touch is the main touch attack a Dread Necromancer gets. It deals negative energy damage at will.

At this point I'm just answering the questions you asked that I didn't see answered, the others have probably better ideas than what I suggeste, tho I do think a Draonfire Adept would do pretty good in a campaign like this...just not as well as a DMM: Persist cleric :-)

Edit: Consider getting the Planning Domain...that gives Extend Spell as it's granted power doesn't it? freeing up a feat for extra turning early.

It might not be as crazy-powerful as the DMM Cleric but it sounds like great fun to play. I am actually saving these ideas since I've been going through characters pretty fast and I have no doubt that even a semi-broken cleric will be overcome well before level 10 at this rate :p

Tomb-tainted dread necro vs Dragonfire Adept... hmm. I don't have Dragon Magic but I'm pretty sure the DM does. Will look into that... thanks!

subject42
2010-09-01, 07:14 PM
If there's any possible way that you can survive until level 6, a Warforged Warlock could also be a good option.

Once you get flight all you need to do is stay about 290' above the field of battle and be very, very patient.

fracas
2010-09-01, 08:22 PM
If there's any possible way that you can survive until level 6, a Warforged Warlock could also be a good option.

Once you get flight all you need to do is stay about 290' above the field of battle and be very, very patient.

LOL, unfortunately the DM already banned warlocks because they can fudge up his dungeons. Also, since we're mostly crawling around sewers at the moment and will probably be hitting the underdark in a session or two I doubt if I'll have all that many chances to fly.


<Incarnate>

Awesome. Reading up now. I may recommend one of these builds to the other regular character if/when that gloaming rogue dies. Level 4 (LA+1) and 21hp... she can't last that much longer :p

fracas
2010-09-01, 08:38 PM
Caliph - Forgot to mention, the planning domain trick for free Extend spell sounds good except that Planning isn't associated with Pelor and I assume I need to worship Pelor to become a radiant servant of him. :)

subject42
2010-09-01, 09:05 PM
Caliph - Forgot to mention, the planning domain trick for free Extend spell sounds good except that Planning isn't associated with Pelor and I assume I need to worship Pelor to become a radiant servant of him. :)

You can get around that by taking a level of Contemplative.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-01, 09:58 PM
Aquatic Dwarf Whatever 2/Incarnate 3

Aquatic Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm) gets a Swim speed and Con/Str bonus.

Whatever should be Rogue if you want Skills and Evasion, Crusader if you want unlimited healing from Divine Spirit, Totemist if you want to tear zombies apart with 6 natural weapons and pounce, or more Incarnate if you want to focus on Necrocarnum Circlet and Vitality Belt.

Incarnate gets soulmelds. Notable options:

Crystal Helm: Adds Deflection bonus to AC. When bound to Crown, melee attacks all gain Force descriptor.

Keeneye Lenses: Spot bonus. When bound to Brow, grants See Invisibility.

Mage's Spectacles: UMD bonus. High enough that you can hit the DC 15 needed to activate wands by level 5ish pretty easily if you don't dump Cha, or mid levels if you do.

Necrocarnum Circlet: Detect Undead at will. When bound to Crown, you can animate dead at will. Although you are limited to 1 necrocarnum zombie at a time and it's HD are limited by your Incarnate level (making this a better option for strait Incarnates)

Impulse Boots: Uncanny Dodge. Evasion when bound to Feet chakra.

Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6*essentia invested) retributive damage whenever someone hits you, so 3d6 at level 3.

Apparition Ribon: Blind Fight. At high ECL you can bind it to your Throat to gain the Incorporeal subtype for limited rounds per day.

Vitality Belt: Meldshaper level * essentia invested bonus hit points. So Incarnate 5 * 3 essentia = 15 bonus hit points. Incarnate 13 * 5 essentia = 65 bonus hit points. A huge deal, especially when you consider that Incarnates tend to have sky high hit points and defense.

Astral Vembraces: 2 + (2*essentia invested) DR/magic. So DR 6/magic at level 3. Very useful at low levels, though not so much at higher levels.

Spellward Shirt: 5 + (4 * essentia invested) Spell Resistance. So SR 13 at level 3. But I've seen this buffed up to SR 40+ at high levels.

This is pretty much the tip of the iceberg though. You can get area of effect attacks, buff almost any Skill, etc. All soulmelds are "all day" effects unless dispelled.
Person_Man you forgot the soul meld we all love to discuss about the Strong Heart vest which gives you a kind it reduces the Ability Damage by 1+ Essentia invested, and when you bind it to the waist chakra it works againts energy drain and finally when bound to the Heart Chakra you gain immunity to energy drains and death effects(a rather high level ability though IIRC the soonest you can get it is through ironsoul forgemaster at ECL 15)

mabriss lethe
2010-09-01, 10:43 PM
I'm going to second the binder. I'm even going to give you a rather fun trick.

Be Neutral or Evil

Take the feats Improved Binding and Healing devotion.

At level 5, with the IB feat, you can bind Level 4 vestiges. Bind Tenebrous.

This nets you an unlimited number of turn/rebuke attempts. (If you're N or E, those can be Rebukes. much tastier for you) Healing Devotion burns up a single turn attempt to utilize. Now look at the description of the feat

Taken from Realmshelp, emphasis mine:

Benefit: Once per day, you can gain fast healing 1, +1 for every five character levels you possess (maximum fast healing 5 at 20th level). This effect lasts for 1 minute.
You can activate this feat as an immediate action or, if you have a daily available, it automatically activates if you are reduced to 0 hit points or below (but not killed).
Special: As a full-round action, you can transfer this ability to a willing recipient as a touch spell. Doing so counts as one daily use of the ability.
You can select this feat multiple times, gaining one additional daily use each time you take it.
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend.

The ability you transfer isn't simply fast healing. You transfer the ability to activate fast healing as an immediate action for 1 minute. You have infinite rebukes. You could theoretically layer any arbitrary number of Healing devotions on your allies that *they* can activate using their actions in or out of combat for infinite healing without binding Buer.

On top of this, you can still rebuke undead as a cleric of your binder level. Minions minions minions.

Even better, with Tenebrous bound, you have other options. You gain a piddly ability to augment your attacks with cold damage, not wonderful, but it can be useful. The real goodies Mr. T gives you is access to the Flicker shadow mystery, a long duration sort range defensive teleport effect, and a permanent deeper darkness effect surrounding you (that you can shave down to a single 5 ft square.) that you can see through.

Ashiel
2010-09-01, 11:13 PM
As the title says. All books allowed, but the DM did put the kibosh on my original idea for a teleport-happy warlock because it didn't fit the world (teleporting breaks dungeons).

I've got several ideas that sound appealing, just need some help deciding and setting up a build. My CO skills are a bit out of date...

Note that this setting is full-on zombie apocalypse. We're part of an underground thieves' guild that survived. Lots of sewers and such (so no large races/minions/cohorts). I only have one regular companion, who is a weakly optimized gloaming rogue4. Her only big saving grace is that she can sneak attack undead. The campaign is set up for 4 players and as such is high mortality - thus, high-powered builds are great, bordering on mandatory.

My current favored ideas are:

-Monk1/Pally2/Favored Soul w/ practiced caster, possibly into Malconvoker. High saves, especially Fort, are really important for obvious zombie-related reasons.
-Dread Necromancer, no idea on a PrC for that one.
-Changeling Paladin/Warshaper/Exotic Weapon Master possibly Trollblooded.
-Cleric focused on necromancy with buff/melee secondary goals. This is a great setting to justify some DMM shenanigans. Is there a better way to build a cleric to fight undead?
-Gnome artificer. Blasty wands blast zombies good. Too bad it's a glass cannon and would probably get pinned down or ambushed pretty fast especially since we have no party tank.
-Ranger w/ undead favored enemy, possibly ACFs to aid in undead killing. Probably split feats between bow and TWF to keep versatility.

Primary goals:

-Must be a reliable out-of-combat healer, ie be able to use a wand of cure light or whatever. This probably means divine spell access.
-MUST have a high Fort save... even my previous druid was failing Fort saves due to the sheer number of them.
-Area effect a plus.
-MUST have high survivability. Favored Soul elemental bonuses/DR/saves would be a huge help. Good touch AC and random immunities never hurt either.
-Must be able to operate independently for extended periods. The rogue needs regular healing and the more my character can live without it the better (limited resources). We're frequently away from base for several days or simply encounter so much combat that my druid was out of spells very quickly and depending on animal companion and a mobile wild shape to stay alive... until he got pinned down by a wraith.
-Cannot be a traditional tank. We occasionally need to swim and deal with tight spaces. Fullplate is a death sentence.
-Wonky builds, monster races, etc are fine with DM approval.
-Undead-targeted abilities are a big plus.
-No large races. We spend too much time in small sewers.
-Must have some way of dealing with less common threats like incorporeal creatures. This probably means at least half caster, divine considering the need for healing.
-Must be playable and powerful starting at level 5. If he's weak at 5, he won't reach 6.

Well, there you have it. A tall order, especially for a lvl 5 character (though close to lvl 6) but I'm confident it's doable. If nothing else, this is a good place to throw out a bunch of all-the-wall, borderline-abusive builds... anything short of planar shepherd brokenness is welcome.

I'd particularly like feedback on the dread necromancer since I'm mostly unfamiliar with it and the Monk/Pal/FS since I know the build isn't generally optimal but our circumstances might make it worth it. Thoughts?

This might sound odd but I'd recommend a Lawful Neutral Cleric of Wee Jass with the Death and Magic Domains. Seeing that all the balance of the world is about to get hosed by the zombie apocalypse, you in turn use your mastery over undeath to turn to tide back in favor of the living since Wee Jass sees that destroying the world and all the living creatures within it will stagnate it - and you need living creatures to have more undead so a balance must be struck.

As a LN Cleric of Wee Jass you can enjoy the following pros.

You have a decent hit dice along with weapon and armor proficiencies.
You have perfect Fortitude and Will saves.
You have Knowledge: Religion as a class skill for identifying undead.
You can animate people into skeletons under your control before they rise as apocalypse undead.
You can take control of undead with Rebuke/Command undead.
You come pre-packed as a healer and party buffer.
You have access to arcane spells through the magic domain, allowing you to cast wizard/sorcerer spells through items; allowing you to get command undead easily enough.
The best way to fight undead is with other undead. Skeletons and zombies are immune to the negative levels, fear, ability damage, disease, poisons, and other nasty things undead frequently make use of.
At higher levels, if a party member dies, revive them using create undead or create greater undead, bringing them back as free-willed undead with ghoul, mummy, or even just skeletons with Awaken Undead cast on them to restore most of their abilities (doesn't work well for wizards though since your Int is capped at 8). They gain the benefits of the corpsecrafter feats if you have them which helps a lot.
Combine the above with the spell in Libris Mortis which allows you to resurrect undead (which is surprisingly efficient for a raising spell) and you can keep them in the game better.
You have access to magic item creation feats.
You have access to spells like magic weapon for incorporeal undead, as well as spells such as Halt Undead and so forth which can help.
Later you have access to death ward which is a godsend against undead, especially ones armed with negative levels or necromancers.

fracas
2010-09-02, 04:20 AM
Ideas logged: Dragonfire Adept, Dread Necromancer w/ Tomb-tainted soul, Incarnate+extensive toy collection, Binder of Tenebrous, Cleric of Wee Jas, Cleric of Pelor.

I don't have access to Dragonfire Adept unfortunately but I'll see about acquiring it for a future character. Dread Necro seems like a poor option for this game since he has no front line to hide behind (the rogue is likely even more frail than he is due to the LA) and the infinite healing trick basically just mimics an infinite wand of cure light - not enough to build a front-line character around. Would be excellent with better party support though. Will save for later.

That leaves Incarnate, Binder, and Cleric of Wee Jas/Pelor.

Binder: Is there any reason the unlimited turn attempts wouldn't power DMM if multiclassed with Cleric? Just a thought. 5 rounds between turn attempts might be a problem if DMM requires them all to be spent at the same time I guess? As a low-level binder with Tenebrous it looks like I have the saves and BAB of a cleric, but substantially less power. Granting at-will healing is neat, but again can be duplicated by wand or two. The supernatural abilities and turning are neat, but against an enemy I can't turn (either because they aren't undead or their power level is too high) all I can do is beat them with the effectiveness of an unbuffed cleric. This might be an option to explore at higher levels? Combining deeper darkness with assassin abilities and such could be good - but it doesn't seem like the overall power is there yet.

Incarnate looks interesting but it'd take me a while to figure out all the mechanics and how to play it effectively (I have Magic of Incarnum but haven't gone through it yet). I'll definitely look into it for a future character though.

Cleric of Wee Jas is tempting but would require more investment to figure out optimal minion management and such. Saved for the future.

So, Cleric of Pelor it is. The suggested dip into Contemplative for Planning can't happen until 10th level since Contemplative requires 13 (!) ranks in K. Religion, which is a bit late for grabbing an early Extend Spell although if I'm putting off DMM it looks like a good option. Divine Health would be pure gold considering the amount of diseases we're being exposed to, and the Religion ranks and 1st level divine spellcasting requirements are things I'd get anyway, making a one-level dip almost a no-brainer. Only question is whether it's ever a better option than the abilities I'd get from RS/Morninglord.

fracas
2010-09-02, 07:08 AM
Actually, looking at Morninglord and RSoP, I'm wondering how valuable Morninglord really is. At 5th level when I take it I'm trading the following vs going straight Cleric:

-1 BAB, -1 Ref, -6 skill points (required Craft and Perform) for +1 Fort and Will. This seems like I break even. Certainly Ref is the least important save and -1 BAB won't matter when I persist the full BAB buff (whatever it's called), but it stings in the meantime and the loss of 6 skill points stings more since they're coming out of Sense Motive... fairly important in this game. Hurts even more since I need to blow 5 more points on Heal for RSoP = no sense motive and points coming out of Diplomacy and K. Religion. The doubled light spell radius is nice but I don't see it being all that valuable. If I need more light I cast light on a rock and toss it wherever I need to see.

Biff recommended Morninglord 9 after RSoP 5, but again it looks like RSoP is arguably stronger.

Morninglord:

+2 Will before noon in bright sun. How many intelligent undead (capable of Will attacks) or underdark residents will be attacking me in these conditions?

Prayer to heal/remove disease/remove ability damage: Nice, but 1/tenday isn't very often, being interrupted for 1 round kills the effect, and it's easily duplicated with low-level spells/scrolls by the time you get it. Heck, it's less useful than the low-level Pally remove disease ability since it requires extended prayer and has infrequent use.

2 additional Greater Turnings: Nice. The Maximized turning is great, but since it's hard to tell how many HD a nasty undead/BBEG has anyway and if they have too many it's wasted. Great idea, wonderful if I need to clear a room but iffy as a BBEG nuke since it has no effect if his HD are too high.

1/day Daylight and Searing Ray: Nice, but I can cast those two anyway

Color Darkvision: Yippie? Not mechanically better than the 2nd level spell Darkvision. +2 AC vs undead and +2 saves vs darkness spells are solid, but...

RSoP: Free Empower, then Maximize, then Empower+Maximize all healing? Awesome. Pushes healing spells much closer to being useful in combat and makes them a decent backup weapon against undead especially if they have high AC and a touch attack is called for.

Positive energy burst: Expected 30-40ish damage to all undead within 100'. Not sure if this is really better or worse than greater turning. It does damage even to BBEGs too powerful for turning and with no HD limit and a huge radius it's a ridiculously good way to clean up low level mobs and infested areas. Especially since the line 'all undead within 100' of the character' implies that it isn't stopped by walls.

Turning has more chance to kill fewer enemies and a good chance of failing against BBEGs. In the end I think PEB is the better option just because I can use it so many more times. Undead tend to have crummy Ref saves so it's reliable and repeatable. Liches for example have low to average HP, can spawn tons of minions, probably have lots of permanent minions, and most everything related to them will have low Ref saves. I could run out of Greater Turnings easily just trying to clear minions or summons (and even the Maximized Turning will likely only affect the Lich's underlings), but pulling 10 PEBs (each doing their damage to the Lich and all his minions) in a row wouldn't be difficult.

Well, there's my amateur analysis at least. Thoughts?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-02, 10:29 AM
Radiant Servant 6 is actually a downgrade. Empower Healing is great, Maximize Healing replaces that and is far weaker, then you're waiting four levels to combine the two. Never take more than five levels of Radiant Servant, more Cleric levels would be more beneficial.

The Planning domain is in Complete Warrior, and it's only available to Clerics of Halmyr, Boccob, Vecna, and Wee Jas. Pelor can't grant the Planning domain, so if you were to take a level in Contemplative you would have to pick a different one.

If you really don't like Morninglord, a stronger choice would be Sacred Exorcist in Complete Divine. Go Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 5/ Sacred Exorcist 9, and include qualification for the 'special' prerequisite in your character's background. It gives you full Turn Undead advancement, abilities to fight evil outsiders as well, and a continual Consecration effect.

jguy
2010-09-02, 10:55 AM
Well first I think that you should ask your DM to use the damage variant for Turn Undead from Complete Divine. Instead of consulting a table and rolling twice to see how much and what you turn, it becomes a simple 1d6 per cleric level of damage with a save for half in a 30ft radius and no AoO. It's a will save but the save is 10+cleric level+charisma score. Even with a charisma score of 14 thats a DC 17 at level 5. Even though it doesn't say it, you can interpret that having 5 ranks in Knowledge: Religion gives you a +2 to the DC since it gives you a +2 bonus to turning checks.

Once you do that, take the Quicken Turning Feat. In an undead campaign, it is awesome with this variant rule. It is effectively a larger fireball centered on you that only hurts your enemies with no drawback and it is free.

Take Sun Domain. Your DM could logically conclude that with the damage variant, a Greater Turning would deal 2d6 per cleric level. At level 5, this is a full blown fireball. If this is allow, take Radiant Servant of Pelor and go to town.

You'll have to again talk to your DM about this, but if it's allowed, it is wonderful. Consecrate is a level 2 cleric spell that last 2 hours/level. In a 20 radius spread, it gives all undead a -1 to attack, damage and saves and increases your turning save by +3. It blesses an area and when you look at Daylight and Darkness, you could say you bless that area of your holy symbol and carry around the bonus all day. The only problem is it costs 25g per casting but honestly it is worth it. Spend 500g right away in material components (holy water) and get 20 castings of it which will last you awhile. At level 5 it'll last 10 hours, or extend it to 20 hours. Even if your DM doesn't allow it this way, it is a great way to start the fight off. Consecrate then quicken turning will hurt your enemies pretty bad.

Person_Man
2010-09-02, 11:37 AM
Person_Man you forgot the soul meld we all love to discuss about the Strong Heart vest which gives you a kind it reduces the Ability Damage by 1+ Essentia invested, and when you bind it to the waist chakra it works againts energy drain and finally when bound to the Heart Chakra you gain immunity to energy drains and death effects(a rather high level ability though IIRC the soonest you can get it is through ironsoul forgemaster at ECL 15)

Actually my favorite soulmeld is the Brood Keeper's Heart. It provides a 2 + (essentia * 2) bonus to Concentration checks. When bound to Heart chakra (ECL 15 for Ironsoul Forgemaster, 16 for Incarnate, 17 for Totemist, or 18 for Necrocarnate), it grants you the Swarm subtype (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Swarm_Subtype), although you still count as your normal size. How awesome is that. Dragon Magazine 350, pg 86.

Incarante builds tend to get a bum rap because of the 1/2 BAB thing. But if you know what you're doing, they're one of the more fun Tier 3ish classes out there.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-02, 02:39 PM
Binder: Is there any reason the unlimited turn attempts wouldn't power DMM if multiclassed with Cleric? Just a thought. 5 rounds between turn attempts might be a problem if DMM requires them all to be spent at the same time I guess? As a low-level binder with Tenebrous it looks like I have the saves and BAB of a cleric, but substantially less power. Granting at-will healing is neat, but again can be duplicated by wand or two. The supernatural abilities and turning are neat, but against an enemy I can't turn (either because they aren't undead or their power level is too high) all I can do is beat them with the effectiveness of an unbuffed cleric. This might be an option to explore at higher levels? Combining deeper darkness with assassin abilities and such could be good - but it doesn't seem like the overall power is there yet.

Yes, and no. Yes, you may use them to power/offset the costs of divine metamagic and No, it's only infinite to a certain extent. You can use one of these turn attempts as many times as you like but you only have 1 from tenebrous that refreshes every 5 rounds. It meshes very well with cleric and there's even the Tenebrous Apostate PrC that works as an undead themed dual progression prestige for binder/cleric. In terms of pure potential power, yes, The cleric, hands down, is the more powerful of the two. The binder has other things going for it.

-Any binder ability is an (su) supernatural ability. It automatically bypasses SR. Using it never provokes attacks of opportunity. almost all attached save DC scales with HD (or in this case, Binder level) Instead of being 10 + spell level + ability mod, It's 10+1/2 Binder level+ Cha mod. Lower level abilities stay viable longer.

The abilities I listed are just for when your binder is hosting Tenebrous. You're by no means limited to just Tenebrous' abilities. At 5th level with the expenditure of a feat, you can bind any one Level 4 or lower vestige for 24 hours. Tenebrous just happens to be one of the better level 4s. When you reach binder level 8, you can bind two vestiges at once.

fracas
2010-09-02, 03:13 PM
Radiant Servant 6 is actually a downgrade. Empower Healing is great, Maximize Healing replaces that and is far weaker, then you're waiting four levels to combine the two. Never take more than five levels of Radiant Servant, more Cleric levels would be more beneficial.

If you really don't like Morninglord, a stronger choice would be Sacred Exorcist in Complete Divine. Go Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 5/ Sacred Exorcist 9, and include qualification for the 'special' prerequisite in your character's background. It gives you full Turn Undead advancement, abilities to fight evil outsiders as well, and a continual Consecration effect.

I've heard before that Maximize is worse than Empower, but how does that work? Maximize a Cure crit and you get 4d8 maximized =32 points. Empower a Cure crit and you get 6d8 average =6*4.5=27.

Sacred Exorcist doesn't seem to have a whole lot of use until Consecrate at 5th and my character probably won't live that long... especially with Exocist having a poor Fort save.

It isn't that I don't like Morninglord; it just looked like RSoP was a bit stronger. Morninglord definitely > Exorcist for this game. If anything, I'll probably end up needing power vs aberrations and drow and such more than outsiders.

I'll probably go with the build you suggested; just trying to understand it better.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-02, 04:35 PM
Actually my favorite soulmeld is the Brood Keeper's Heart. It provides a 2 + (essentia * 2) bonus to Concentration checks. When bound to Heart chakra (ECL 15 for Ironsoul Forgemaster, 16 for Incarnate, 17 for Totemist, or 18 for Necrocarnate), it grants you the Swarm subtype (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Swarm_Subtype), although you still count as your normal size. How awesome is that. Dragon Magazine 350, pg 86.

Incarante builds tend to get a bum rap because of the 1/2 BAB thing. But if you know what you're doing, they're one of the more fun Tier 3ish classes out there.

hmmm I might need to re-check SinFire Titan's Incarnate handbook, this stuff looks nasty and tasty.....

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-02, 04:56 PM
I've heard before that Maximize is worse than Empower, but how does that work? Maximize a Cure crit and you get 4d8 maximized =32 points. Empower a Cure crit and you get 6d8 average =6*4.5=27.
Empower Spell increases the entire variable numeric portion by 50%, so Xd8+CL would become (Xd8+CL)x1.5, your example wouldn't be 6d8 empowered, it would be 6d8 + 150% of CL.

Maximized vs Empowered (average result for 1d8 is 4.5)
CLW 1d8+5, maximized 13, empowered 14.25 average
CMW 2d8+10, maximized 26, empowered 28.5 average
CSW 3d8+15, maximized 39, empowered 42.75 average
CCW 4d8+20, maximized 52, empowered 57 average

At Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 6 with the Healing domain you'll be at Caster Level 13. CLW and CMW won't be any different, let's look at CSW and CCW at that level:
CSW 3d8+13, maximized 37, empowered 39.75 average
CCW 4d8+13, maximized 45, empowered 46.5 average

As you can see, you would have to roll extremely poorly on the dice for Empower to not be better than Maximize. You don't want more than five levels in Radiant Servant unless you can jump directly to the 10th level, and most games won't be starting at 16th+ level. There aren't many prestige classes out there that progress Turn Undead and don't lose any spellcasting levels. Your best options are Radiant Servant, Morninglord, and Sacred Exorcist, otherwise you'll just have to settle with more Cleric levels. I wouldn't worry too much about saving throws, by level 12 you should be casting Superior Resistance every day for a +6 bonus to all three. This is probably one of the most survivable character builds for an undead heavy campaign, but if you still don't think he'll live very long then don't really stress out about what you're going to take in the later levels. If you do make it that far, either Morninglord or Sacred Exorcist will definitely be good enough to take levels in, otherwise just take more Cleric and call it good. For Morninglord I'd get two ranks in Perform: Dance early on, it's sure to come in handy for RP.

Nick_mi
2010-09-02, 05:02 PM
Dragon Wings might be cool too, get the improved version at 6th level for non-magical flight.

Can someone elaborate on this please?

Greenish
2010-09-02, 05:15 PM
Can someone elaborate on this please?Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings are RotD feats which require Dragonblood subtype and gradually (like dragonborn) give you flight.

Nick_mi
2010-09-02, 05:54 PM
ffs. Thank you. Been trying to figure that out for like a week now -.-;

fracas
2010-09-02, 06:14 PM
Empower Spell increases the entire variable numeric portion by 50%, so Xd8+CL would become (Xd8+CL)x1.5, your example wouldn't be 6d8 empowered, it would be 6d8 + 150% of CL.

Maximized vs Empowered (average result for 1d8 is 4.5)
CLW 1d8+5, maximized 13, empowered 14.25 average
CMW 2d8+10, maximized 26, empowered 28.5 average
CSW 3d8+15, maximized 39, empowered 42.75 average
CCW 4d8+20, maximized 52, empowered 57 average

At Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 6 with the Healing domain you'll be at Caster Level 13. CLW and CMW won't be any different, let's look at CSW and CCW at that level:
CSW 3d8+13, maximized 37, empowered 39.75 average
CCW 4d8+13, maximized 45, empowered 46.5 average

As you can see, you would have to roll extremely poorly on the dice for Empower to not be better than Maximize. You don't want more than five levels in Radiant Servant unless you can jump directly to the 10th level, and most games won't be starting at 16th+ level. There aren't many prestige classes out there that progress Turn Undead and don't lose any spellcasting levels. Your best options are Radiant Servant, Morninglord, and Sacred Exorcist, otherwise you'll just have to settle with more Cleric levels. I wouldn't worry too much about saving throws, by level 12 you should be casting Superior Resistance every day for a +6 bonus to all three. This is probably one of the most survivable character builds for an undead heavy campaign, but if you still don't think he'll live very long then don't really stress out about what you're going to take in the later levels. If you do make it that far, either Morninglord or Sacred Exorcist will definitely be good enough to take levels in, otherwise just take more Cleric and call it good. For Morninglord I'd get two ranks in Perform: Dance early on, it's sure to come in handy for RP.

I feel sad when I think how much healing I've wasted by not including the CL in my Empowerings. *facepalm*

Alright, I'm convinced. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Also, a thought: By this build I can't get DMM Persist until lvl 12. Given high risk of death, I'm wondering if it's better to try something with more short-term benefits. Taking any divine feat would net me another turn attempt at 6th through the reliquary symbol, and a few of them look really good.

Domain spontaneity, with what will be 13 turn attempts at lvl 6? Wow. That puts Sorc spells per day to shame.

Divine Spell Power. 3 bonus from the feat + 3 cha mod (another +2 if I bump Cha first) = expected 16, 17 with boosted cha. Average +3 CL for a single turn attempt.

I could benefit from either or both of these immediately and leave Persist for higher levels or throw it in as an add-on if I can get flaws. Thoughts?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-02, 07:45 PM
It's probably a good idea to get something you can use now than work toward a DMM: Persist that you'll never even get to use. Note however that Domain Spontaneity doesn't grant additional spells/day, you use up one of your already prepared spells and one turn attempt to cast a spell from your domain. It's just like the PH2 ACF but it also costs turn attempts. Divine Spell Power is amazing, especially if you can get an extra +1 out of Magic Vestment. Note that if you roll poorly, you can just not cast a spell that round and use another turn attempt to try again the next round. There are divine feats in PH2, CW, CC, and a few others so check around for something you'd really like.

fracas
2010-09-02, 09:06 PM
Ahh, I thought Spontaneous was too good to be true. Oh well.

The PH2 and CW feats look pretty Paladinish with mediocre stat boosts here and there. Really paltry compared to the utility of DMM Persist or Divine Spell Power. +cha mod to AC for half your level in rounds (and eating a standard action to cast likely in the middle of combat) vs persistent greater magic vestments? Not even close... at least it shows that the feat tax is going to a good cause in this case ;)

Side thought: DMM Extend would make a lot of spells last long enough to cast as soon as there's a risk of combat and occasionally refresh throughout the day. Refreshing low level spells for 1+spell level turning attempts is probably more cost efficient than persisting them for 6+spell level turning attempts anyway. At 6th level I could persist a single spell... maybe two 1st level spells if I pushed the optimization hard enough. At 9th I could maybe manage 2 2nd level spells at best. If I just extended spells and refreshed a couple times I could have quite a few going at once... and save myself a feat in the process. The only spells I'd miss out on are the ones measured in rounds like Divine Power - which is a great spell, but for 10 turning attempts I wouldn't be able to persist anything else for a long time.

The +4 stat buff spells are measured in minutes and would therefore be cheap to spam as needed...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-02, 09:22 PM
A Lesser Rod of Extend is only 3,000 gp, and doesn't cost any feats.

fracas
2010-09-03, 02:10 AM
True... that might be a better use of funds. Speaking of which, here's the deal with money: I have 9k starting gold WBL. The party has just under 14k in credit with the survivors we're working with. I can buy anything I want with my 9k starting gold but the party treasury can only buy items 800gp or below due to limited supplies and no trade.

This character could easily inherit my druid's recently-vacated darkwood heavy shield and dragonhide fullplate and periapt of wis +2 to save some cash. The druid was just using a MW club + shillelagh since he spent most of his time buffing and healing while his war dog did his dirty work - worth turning in for store credit but that's about it.

I could save some more cash by getting the healing belt, sun disk, and ephod from the party treasury.

That means I'm blowing 4812gp on the rod of defiance and 1000gp on the reliquary holy symbol and probably 3000gp on a rod of lesser extend. That leaves me with 188gp, just enough to start with the sun disk and a little cash left over. I suppose I could drop the extend rod and holy symbol for an item of Str+2 since 18 str is kind of a landmark but it seems like I get more for my money by just extending a bull str and getting +4 instead. Granted it'll only last 10m but refreshing is easy enough and when you think about it you can crawl a lot of dungeon in 100 rounds.

Sound good?

FYI I'm sitting at 13900xp with the item familiar - with any luck I'll level next session :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-03, 02:27 AM
Any stat boosting item other than Wisdom would be a bit of a waste, you'd definitely get a lot more mileage out of the Lesser Rod of Extend and self-buffing.

It's a good thing there are so many cheap, efficient items. Everyone in the party should get a Healing Belt just so they'll be more self sufficient. An Amber Amulet of Vermin (MIC) would also come in handy for anyone, particularly the giant wasp since it gets a strong attack and can even be used briefly as a flying mount. There are also quite a few inexpensive footwear choices in MIC, definitely worth taking a look at.

Shalist
2010-09-03, 04:32 AM
Could you fit Necropolitan into your build at all? You lose 1 level (as if you'd just been raised) and 1000 exp, but you get all those delicious undead immunities--the best fort saves are, after all, the ones you never have to make.

CREATING A NECROPOLITAN
“Necropolitan” is an acquired template that can be added to
any humanoid or monstrous humanoid (referred to hereafter
as the base creature).
A necropolitan speaks any languages it knew in life, and it
has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except
as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead, and
it gains the augmented subtype. Do not recalculate base attack
bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
Hit Dice: Increase to d12.
Special Qualities: A necropolitan retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.

Resist Control (Ex): Necropolitans have a +2 profane bonus on their Will saving throws to resist the effect of a control undead spell.
Turn Resistance (Ex): A necropolitan has +2 turn resistance.
Unnatural Resilience (Ex): Necropolitans automatically heal
hit point damage and ability damage at the same rate as a living
creature. The Heal skill has no effect on necropolitans; however,
negative energy (such as an infl ict spell) heals them.
Abilities: Same as the base creature, except that as undead
creatures, necropolitans have no Constitution score.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature. (Becoming a
necropolitan involves losing a level—see Ritual of Crucimigration,
below—so the advantages of the undead type cancel out
what would other wise be a larger adjustment.)

And other stuff:

Divine energy focus (feat) +2 level +2 damage +2 check (Ghostwalk)
Improve turning feat +1 level
Extra turning feat 4 extra attempts, stacks wonderfully with multiple pools of turn attempts (ie pally/cleric, or stuff that gives "turn elemental/whatever" attempts) (there's some handbook out there that lists all the classes that grant turning, vice just improving existing turning)

---

Also, there's some nice stuff in the Ravenloft books for you, like trading 'turn undead' for 'destroy undead' as a 1st level cleric of the Lightbringer's Guild:

(hold ctrl, and use your mouse wheel to zoom in/out if its hard to read)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee480/123456laugh/Lightbringer.jpg?t=1283505277

Needless to say, there's some good stuff for other classes in there too, if you can use it.

edit: Ah, 14k to throw around...here's some stuff from another 'turn undead' thread:


There's also the 'Light of ---' spells in the complete champion...they last rounds/lvl, or until discharged, so you can cram a few on your holy symbol.

(2) Light of Faith: 1/2 your CL as a sacred bonus to your next turn check (max 5)
(3) Light of Wisdom: +1 effective level / 3 CL's (doesn't affect turning damage, also, no upper limit)
(4) Light of Purity: Increase turning damage by 1d6 /4 CL's (max 5d6)
(6) Light of Courgae: All undead targeted by your turn take 1d8 damage (as in HP) / 2 CL (max 10d8), regardless of its success.
Sacred armor/shield +2 level each
Greater holy symbol (emp. turn feat) +2d6 damage -2 check

edit: more item stuff, with costs/references.



Sunlight stone 30’ of actual sunlight, +2 sacred bonus to turn checks 10000 LibMort84

Goggles of lifesight Instantly know if something is dead, undead, or neither 2000 LM78

Sceptre of the netherworld Turn undead as if 3 levels higher when held 9000 MIC

Rod of defiance +1 light mace, also undead w/in 30’ have 4 fewer HD for turn/rebuking 7312 MIC56

Lyre of restful souls 15dc ‘string instrument’ check for 60’ –4 turn resistance for 10 rounds 3000

Greater holy symbol Allow ‘empowered turning’ at will 5040 DoF27

Moonfriend ring +3 level for turning undead 9000 Exp.rav.213

Crystal of true death +1d6 damage to undead, acts as a ‘ghost touch’ weapon. 3000 (MIC27ish)

Crystal of screening, gtr Incorporeal creatures take -10 penalty to hit you 3000 MIC27 (for armor)

Armor Millenial chainmail +1 mithril chainmail, also (relic) fast heal 3 in normal lighting 8150 MIC20

Vest Ebonsilk vestment (relic) +2 resist to saves, Spiderclimb and Freedom of movement 5000 MIC


With a few of those items, You could easily afford +8 or more damage to every one of your 5d6 (or 8d6, or however much you pump it) turn attempts if you wanted . The 'true death' crystals would be perfect for everyone--they let you attack ghosties, and even SA undead, with equal ease.

Person_Man
2010-09-03, 09:07 AM
hmmm I might need to re-check SinFire Titan's Incarnate handbook, this stuff looks nasty and tasty.....

It's not as strong as magic, and it requires a very high level of rules mastery to use. But like Dragonfire Adepts, Binders, Crusaders, Warblades, and Swordsages, it tends to shine in "World's Biggest Dungeon" type games where you can't rest very due to DM fiat.

Another low level Incarnum combo - Thereputic Mantle: Whenever you are "the target of a spell or effect that heals hit point damage, the spell heals additional damage equal to it's spell level" + (2 * essentia invested). So a 1st level Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8 + 1 + caster level (max 5) + (2*essentia invested). The normally useless 0th level Cure Minor Wounds heals 1 + (2*essentia invested). If a DM is nice, they will allow it to improve all effects which heal hit points (as the first part of the sentence I quited implies, instead of the second half of the sentence which implies that it only effects spells). So Fast Healing 1 would become Fast Healing 1+ (2*essentia invested).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-03, 01:40 PM
It's not as strong as magic, and it requires a very high level of rules mastery to use. But like Dragonfire Adepts, Binders, Crusaders, Warblades, and Swordsages, it tends to shine in "World's Biggest Dungeon" type games where you can't rest very due to DM fiat.

Another low level Incarnum combo - Thereputic Mantle: Whenever you are "the target of a spell or effect that heals hit point damage, the spell heals additional damage equal to it's spell level" + (2 * essentia invested). So a 1st level Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8 + 1 + caster level (max 5) + (2*essentia invested). The normally useless 0th level Cure Minor Wounds heals 1 + (2*essentia invested). If a DM is nice, they will allow it to improve all effects which heal hit points (as the first part of the sentence I quited implies, instead of the second half of the sentence which implies that it only effects spells). So Fast Healing 1 would become Fast Healing 1+ (2*essentia invested).

I pride myself to have some degree or rules mastery and I have played a totemist before so the intrincancies of incarnum are not that of a problem, it is that I have never played an incarnate.

Masgic doesn't shines as much as it can in the games I play in, due having a more Role playing and low optimization group, we usually just have 1 or 2 encounters per session, and the DM is big on Rule 0 so I have to rein in my optimization impulses,and as such optimizing tiers 3 is the best I can do without starting receiving glares and being called a munchking