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View Full Version : Why don't clerics and druids fall much?



Kami2awa
2010-08-31, 04:42 AM
From these boards, there is a repetitive theme of fallen paladins, with long discussions of the paladin code. I've very rarely seen a mention of fallen druids and clerics, both of whom can get stripped of their powers for breaking their own moral codes.

Anyone have any experience with interesting characters like these?

gomipile
2010-08-31, 04:55 AM
Probably because the code of conduct for paladins is easier to break, especially with an unforgiving DM.

dsmiles
2010-08-31, 04:57 AM
From these boards, there is a repetitive theme of fallen paladins, with long discussions of the paladin code. I've very rarely seen a mention of fallen druids and clerics, both of whom can get stripped of their powers for breaking their own moral codes.

Anyone have any experience with interesting characters like these?

Yeah, some deities have pretty stringent moral codes even for their clerics.
Druids, on the other hand, revere nature, not deities (unless your in FR, where not revering a deity gets you a bad afterlife). So falling isn't much of an issue with them.

Reynard
2010-08-31, 04:57 AM
And because a paladin falling is a 'great twist.'

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 05:09 AM
Druids, on the other hand, revere nature, not deities (unless your in FR, where not revering a deity gets you a bad afterlife). So falling isn't much of an issue with them.

There's one druid in FR who gets his power from "nature" rather than nature deities- and is teaching his followers to do so, since the gods they'd prefer to worship, strongly disapprove of their behaviour and won't grant them any spells.

He's an elven lich, in Champions of Ruin, and is a senior member of the elf-supremacist organization- the Eldeth Veluthraa or "Victorious Blade of the People".

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-31, 05:30 AM
Where does it say that all FR druids get their powers from nature GODS, rather than Nature + they have to generally ALSO worship a god to not get to that wall when they die, and its generally prudent if they worship a nature god?

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 05:32 AM
In FRCS, it states that anything with divine spells (including druids) needs to worship a deity to get those spells. And if it's a druid, the deity must be on the list of "nature deities".

This CoR druid, however, appears to be an exception.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-31, 05:34 AM
Can you give me some page numbers? This is Very Relevant to me currently.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 05:38 AM
I think in FCRS, either the section on deities, or the section on druids, has this. I don't have the book to hand right now.

In Champions of Ruin, under organizations, the backstory on the sample character for the Eldeth Veluthraa, explains how he's teaching his followers to draw direct from "nature".

Are you planning on playing a non-worshipper druid? If so, CoR can be cited as precedent, but it's the only source that has the idea of such druids existing.

jmbrown
2010-08-31, 05:45 AM
Something else to note is that because mortals can't directly contact their deity, it's not 100% certain their deity is even granting spells. I think it was Heroes of Horror or something that had a cleric to a good aligned deity turn into a serial killer. He still worshipped his deity but it was an evil god that granted his spells without his knowing.

In pretty much every setting, people pray but they have no idea who is actually granting their spells. A paladin's powers come straight from their code. A cleric's powers come straight from whoever decides to answer them.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-31, 05:51 AM
No, I'm planning on playing a worshipper druid, but knowing this sort of thing might help with flavor 'bones' that I throw the DM.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 06:00 AM
Champions of Ruin has some interesting stuff besides that druid- a description of various types of evil character, a discussion of whether evil characters see themselves as evil (mostly, no)

and a few words on what it takes to be evil-aligned (committing evil acts deliberately and repeatedly, for whatever reason). It does say that Good an Neutral characters might be "driven to these acts from time to time".

So, a character who routinely tortures people- even if they only ever torture evil people- is likely to be Evil-aligned by these rules.

Psyx
2010-08-31, 06:28 AM
"Something else to note is that because mortals can't directly contact their deity, it's not 100% certain their deity is even granting spells. I think it was Heroes of Horror or something that had a cleric to a good aligned deity turn into a serial killer. He still worshipped his deity but it was an evil god that granted his spells without his knowing."


That is genius and needs -as an idea- stealing more often in fantasy games.

Our world often deals with 'my god made me do it' or 'god says it's ok for me to kill [insert name here]' nut-cases of all creeds. However, we have nothing that can either prove or disprove their delusions.

The concept that -in a fantasy game- their delusions could be made apparently even more truthful and further reinforced by them still retaining obvious 'signs' of diefic approval (such as granted spells), despite being corrupted and inherently abhorrent to the god whose name they claim to be acting in is just... brilliant.

/yoinked for plot.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 06:37 AM
In Tome of Magic- the fallen paladin (blackguard) and witch hunter Michael Ambrose, is aware that his god is no longer in contact with him, but he still thinks its a test of character, and nothing to do with his acts.

Similarly, he rationalizes being kicked out of his witch hunting group for excessive brutality as "they are corrupt".

Gareth Cormaeril in Waterdeep: City of Splendours, is a similarly deluded ex-paladin.

On clerics like this- in Exemplars of Evil there is an elven cleric of Corellon who was transformed into a drow via her foe's dying curse. She's managed to keep up the masquerade, in the hope of destroying the organization she's now in charge of- but has fallen, and (unknown to her) Lolth now grants her spells.

This works because, thanks to an alternative class feature, she only ever had one domain- the Chaos domain- which both deities have.

Tyrmatt
2010-08-31, 06:49 AM
If a cleric falls into a different moral code, there's often another god he can worship who fits his new alignment better. The Heroes of Horror example given is just one of the ways it can happen, though admittedly the coolest to my mind.

Druids who fall are pretty rare as they have to start defiling nature. It's perfectly acceptable for druids to venerate the Survival of the Fittest principle of nature and be vicious in it.

The few who do begin polluting and burning become Blighters. Mechanically unsound but an awesome class idea.

Greenish
2010-08-31, 06:55 AM
Clerics can't fall. ECS pg. 35-36. :smallwink:

Curmudgeon
2010-08-31, 06:55 AM
D&D Clerics have some flexibility. They only need to be within 1 alignment step of their deities, rather than strictly following one alignment. That could mean up to 5 different acceptable alignments (out of 9 total) for Clerics of a single god. As for Druids, they always have 5 allowed alignments, and no deities at all.

I don't see much of an issue here.

Clerics in Eberron can't fall. ECS pg. 35-36. Fixed that for you.

Greenish
2010-08-31, 07:01 AM
Fixed that for you.Thank you, Cpt. Obvious. :smallamused:

AslanCross
2010-08-31, 07:58 AM
Something else to note is that because mortals can't directly contact their deity, it's not 100% certain their deity is even granting spells. I think it was Heroes of Horror or something that had a cleric to a good aligned deity turn into a serial killer. He still worshipped his deity but it was an evil god that granted his spells without his knowing.

In pretty much every setting, people pray but they have no idea who is actually granting their spells. A paladin's powers come straight from their code. A cleric's powers come straight from whoever decides to answer them.

I thought this was particularly true only in Eberron, where the gods are distant and it's very plausible to be an agnostic cleric, or even be the complete opposite of one's deity's alignment. In core and other settings that don't state otherwise, however, clerics can contact their deities directly (see: Contact Other Plane, various divination spells).

If the gods walk/have walked the Material plane physically (FR, for example), it's even clearer where they get their power (although gods masquerading as other gods is not unheard of).

Conversely, I remember seeing somewhere that clerics who ascribe to philosophies instead of deities might actually be getting their powers from gods who are like-minded.

Now to answer the OP's question: the paladin code has a lot to do with specific actions and conduct, and is very easy to challenge.

Clerics only need to maintain a certain alignment in core, though specific deities will have varying degrees of stringency.

Druids are only really forbidden from wearing metal armor (despite being able to use arrows or spears with metal heads, sickles and scimitars; this is one of the most bizarre distinctions I've seen in D&D <_< ), teaching Druidic to others, changing alignment, or ceasing to revere nature. Of course, reverence of nature can range from being a hippie to being an eco-terrorist, so that part doesn't really matter. A druid who eats babies can justify it as easily as a druid who scolds children for pulling bugs apart can.

Violet Octopus
2010-08-31, 08:02 AM
Something else to note is that because mortals can't directly contact their deity, it's not 100% certain their deity is even granting spells. I think it was Heroes of Horror or something that had a cleric to a good aligned deity turn into a serial killer. He still worshipped his deity but it was an evil god that granted his spells without his knowing.

In pretty much every setting, people pray but they have no idea who is actually granting their spells. A paladin's powers come straight from their code. A cleric's powers come straight from whoever decides to answer them.

Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark did this with a paladin. Then again it is Forgotten Realms, maybe paladins only get their powers from deities there too.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 08:04 AM
According to to the FRCS rulebook- paladins there can only get their power from deities.

Rangers can start off with no deity- but must choose one if they want to be able to cast spells.

dsmiles
2010-08-31, 08:05 AM
According to to the FRCS rulebook- paladins there can only get their power from deities.

Rangers can start off with no deity- but must choose one if they want to be able to cast spells.

And not get stuck in the wall of souls when they die.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 08:08 AM
I like the way Manual of the Planes Deities & Demigods (written after FRCS) handled it- only those who "actively oppose the worship of the gods" get the Wall- those who didn't pick a deity simply wander the Fugue plane until something picks them up.

Sometimes it's a particularly compassionate deity, but more often it's wandering fiends.

dsmiles
2010-08-31, 08:12 AM
I like the way Manual of the Planes (written after FRCS) handled it- only those who "actively oppose the worship of the gods" get the Wall- those who didn't pick a deity simply wander the Fugue plane until something picks them up.

Sometimes it's a particularly compassionate deity, but more often it's wandering fiends.

Must have missed that part in that book. Unless you're talking 4e, I don't have the 4e Manual of the Planes.

Violet Octopus
2010-08-31, 08:13 AM
According to to the FRCS rulebook- paladins there can only get their power from deities.

Interesting. She got her spells from Mephistopheles. Oh well, it made for a better plot than if, say, Cyric randomly showed up and gloated. If Cyric does that sort of thing.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 08:13 AM
Must have missed that part in that book. Unless you're talking 4e, I don't have the 4e Manual of the Planes.

Sorry, that should have been Deities & Demigods.


Interesting. She got her spells from Mephistopheles. Oh well, it made for a better plot than if, say, Cyric randomly showed up and gloated. If Cyric does that sort of thing.

Computer games occasionally chuck out some of the rules. Archdevils don't so much "grant spells" as "act as conduits to the Lower Planes, which grant spells"

So, a cleric of Mephistopheles, would actually be drawing on the plane of Baator for his spells, with Mephistopheles acting as a conduit, and thus determining what domains the cleric gets.

I think Power of Faerun, Players Guide to Faerun, and Faiths and Pantheons, explain that this is an exception to the general rule that a cleric must draw on a deity.

dsmiles
2010-08-31, 08:17 AM
Sorry, that should have been Deities & Demigods.

Believe it or not, that's one of the 3.5 books I never picked up. I like my deities to be mysterious and untouchable. "No stats = can't kill" in my campaigns.

Greenish
2010-08-31, 08:19 AM
Druids are only really forbidden from wearing metal armor (despite being able to use arrows or spears with metal heads, sickles and scimitars; this is one of the most bizarre distinctions I've seen in D&D <_< ), teaching Druidic to others, changing alignment, or ceasing to revere nature.Wearing metal armour doesn't really cause the druid to fall, in the way the others do.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 08:20 AM
Believe it or not, that's one of the 3.5 books I never picked up. I like my deities to be mysterious and untouchable. "No stats = can't kill" in my campaigns.

It's mid-3.0. There's other stuff besides deity stats though- discussions of how a deity might interact with the campaign- what roles the deities might play, how characters might become deities, and so on.

"mysteries, unfathomable deities" is mentioned as a possibility though.

Yuki Akuma
2010-08-31, 08:35 AM
The druids in metal armour thing isn't a philosophical restriction - encasing themselves in metal literally interferes with their powers.

Druid magic is magnetism?

dsmiles
2010-08-31, 08:43 AM
The druids in metal armour thing isn't a philosophical restriction - encasing themselves in metal literally interferes with their powers.

Druid magic is magnetism?

Druid = Magneto?

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 08:46 AM
Clerics don't fall because they don't have a strict code. A paladin doesn't even have to change alignment to fall only perform a single questionable act. I can't say I've ever had a paladin fall, or a cleric fall. In my settings clerics can fall (there are no clerics of ideals only gods), druids are closer to nature-archivists who parasitically/symbiotically draw magic from Gaia, and paladins... probably need their alignment restrictions reduced (as there is no fluff reason for it since they get their power from gods the same as clerics).

Morty
2010-08-31, 08:49 AM
I agree that clerics and druids don't fall because their codes are rather vague - don't change alignment to one incompatibile with the deity and don't "grossly violate the deity's code of conduct". They don't have a lengthy paragraph describing what they can and can't do that can be interpreted in various ways.

hamishspence
2010-08-31, 09:33 AM
The problematic bit is probably most often "committing an evil act" since the other factors say "grossly violating the code causes paladin to fall."

As to what counts as an evil act- opinion is very divided on what constitutes a valid source.

EvilJames
2010-09-01, 01:26 AM
In Tome of Magic- the fallen paladin (blackguard) and witch hunter Michael Ambrose, is aware that his god is no longer in contact with him, but he still thinks its a test of character, and nothing to do with his acts.

Similarly, he rationalizes being kicked out of his witch hunting group for excessive brutality as "they are corrupt".
Funny thing is IIRC he is a LE blackguard and his deity is St Cuthbert who is LN. So he is still in some ways acting in St Cuthbert's interests. Also I do not believe he was ever extradited from his church so he still acts as an official representative in his new witch hunting outfit.

Safety Sword
2010-09-01, 01:43 AM
Clerics don't fall because they don't have a strict code. A paladin doesn't even have to change alignment to fall only perform a single questionable act. I can't say I've ever had a paladin fall, or a cleric fall. In my settings clerics can fall (there are no clerics of ideals only gods), druids are closer to nature-archivists who parasitically/symbiotically draw magic from Gaia, and paladins... probably need their alignment restrictions reduced (as there is no fluff reason for it since they get their power from gods the same as clerics).

Deities refuse to grant spells to clerics when they are unhappy with them. Nothing says it's all or nothing though, they might refuse to grant spells above a certain level as a warning (and a sign to atone, you jerk cleric).

W3bDragon
2010-09-01, 02:30 AM
Clerics don't fall because they don't have a strict code. A paladin doesn't even have to change alignment to fall only perform a single questionable act. I can't say I've ever had a paladin fall, or a cleric fall. In my settings clerics can fall (there are no clerics of ideals only gods), druids are closer to nature-archivists who parasitically/symbiotically draw magic from Gaia, and paladins... probably need their alignment restrictions reduced (as there is no fluff reason for it since they get their power from gods the same as clerics).

The fluff/system reason for the paladin strictness is buried deep in the older D&D editions. Paladins are supposed to be special, very special. Their rarity even among the ranks of adventurers was remarkable (due to minimum required stats).

With the loosening of their stat requirements in 3rd ed on one end, and remaking all magic items to look like they're coming out of a factory, rather than being special items, like a Paladin's Holy Avenger, the special rare and unique qualities of the paladin class are lost, as such, the codes would benefit from being loosened a bit.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-01, 02:41 AM
Deities refuse to grant spells to clerics when they are unhappy with them. Nothing says it's all or nothing though, they might refuse to grant spells above a certain level as a warning (and a sign to atone, you jerk cleric).

Fun fact: deities can refuse to grant spells, but they cannot revoke spells already prepared by their Clerics.

Which means a cleric can technically fall and retain some of his spellcasting - it just becomes a limited resource until he atones or finds a new deity.

hamishspence
2010-09-01, 02:44 AM
Funny thing is IIRC he is a LE blackguard and his deity is St Cuthbert who is LN. So he is still in some ways acting in St Cuthbert's interests. Also I do not believe he was ever extradited from his church so he still acts as an official representative in his new witch hunting outfit.

Nope- according to Deities & Demigods, St Cuthbert does not allow LE clerics, despite being LN himself.

Michael Ambrose is not an official representative of St Cuthbert- and whatever force he draws his blackguard powers from, it's not that deity.

I think he was kicked out of not just his old witch hunter outfit, but the church of St Cuthbert as a whole. Though he sees those that kicked him out as having succumbed to corruption.

AslanCross
2010-09-01, 02:44 AM
Ah yes, I realized that after looking at the druid entry again. They don't fall, but it still does hamper their powers.

tiercel
2010-09-01, 06:45 AM
Well for clerics it's probably a matter of .. what deity/ethos does the cleric follow? If the DM+player don't come up with much of a code of conduct for that character's particular worship, it's going to be pretty hard to justify the cleric "falling" unless the player is almost blatantly trying.

For druids, it's the general vagueness of the code, though I'd argue it's certainly possible if the character acts with little or no disregard for natural surroundings/allies:

sending animal companion ahead into combat to attract enemies/tank while the druid hangs back and buffs self, with little regard for animal companion's welfare ("I can just call another one")

repeated fire-based castings and summonings in heavily wooded areas ("so that's two Huge fire elementals, some flame strikes and call lightning, and all this in an area heavily wooded enough for me to put squares of cover on the map and with enough underbrush to mark difficult terrain, and you don't see a problem here?")

Still, whether we are talking about druids or clerics or paladins I don't like the idea of just dropping "whoops, that's it, you just Fall" on a player's head; I will supply Very Bad Portents when such a character is taking actions that, if continued, could lead to a Fall (a druid in trouble starts withering plants whenever he casts, leaves a trail of sooty/ashen/smoldering footprints when he walks, animals begin to shy away from him, etc, even before he starts losing access to spells). I think a player would have to take a really blatant, major, entirely-opposed-to-the-character's-general-ethos action for me to just drop a Fall on a character with no warning period.

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-01, 06:51 AM
Basically, Paladins have an actual paladin rulebook.

Clerics have to not piss off their god too much.

That means in order for a cleric to fall he

1. The DM has to write up rules for a deity
2. The cleric has to break the rules
3. The deity has to care

hamishspence
2010-09-01, 06:54 AM
Some books have more detailed lists of duties for clerics of a particular god, and things the cleric is forbidden from doing, but players and DMs might not use them- since they are "not core".

dsmiles
2010-09-01, 06:58 AM
Some books have more detailed lists of duties for clerics of a particular god, and things the cleric is forbidden from doing, but players and DMs might not use them- since they are "not core".

I like my clerics to be able to "fall." It adds that element of "crap, I better do this right," to the game.

Telonius
2010-09-01, 07:30 AM
The druids in metal armour thing isn't a philosophical restriction - encasing themselves in metal literally interferes with their powers.

Druid magic is magnetism?

Magnetism is a natural force, after all.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-01, 07:43 AM
Magnetism is a natural force, after all.
So is the weak atomic force.:smallamused:

Thane of Fife
2010-09-01, 08:10 AM
Interesting. She got her spells from Mephistopheles. Oh well, it made for a better plot than if, say, Cyric randomly showed up and gloated. If Cyric does that sort of thing.

As I recall, it's not actually certain whether that's the case or not. Certainly, Mephistopheles claims that it is, but he's not exactly a reliable source.

Duke of URL
2010-09-01, 09:27 AM
I think the most likely reason that paladins fall and others don't is simply that for some reason, in many groups, a paladin seems to kick off a "mingame" within the game of the DM trying to make the paladin fall.

It might not even be intentional... but that paladin's code... it's just such a big, fat juicy target that even subconsciously, the DM arranges for events to put the paladin in "no win" situations regarding his/her code. And then there are the DMs who seem to take delight in doing it intentionally.

It's one of the reasons I hate paladins -- not for what the class is supposed to be (I heartily approve of the "knight in shining armor" archetype), but for what it tends to do to a game.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-01, 10:39 AM
There ARE two PrC for fallen Druids and Cleric (sorry for the names, once again french player here): the Ur-Priest (in CD and BoVD), the sample character is a fallen priest) and the Blighter (in CD), an ex Druid who takes his power by defiling Nature around him.

Okay, the first one does not need for a fallen priest, but it's the same for the Blackguard. But the Ravager does need some "fallen druid" in the background.

Edit: thanks for the correct names!

hamishspence
2010-09-01, 10:42 AM
The Ur-Priest and the Blighter, yes.

Some druid spells in Spell Compendium are a bit blight-ish already though.

dsmiles
2010-09-01, 10:43 AM
There ARE two PrC for fallen Druids and Cleric (sorry for the names, once again french player here): the Godlsayer Priest (in CD and BoVD), the sample character is a fallen priest) and the Ravager (in CD), an ex Druid who takes his power by defiling Nature around him.

Okay, the first one does not need for a fallen priest, but it's the same for the Blackguard. But the Ravager does need some "fallen druid" in the background.

I believe the english BoVD has your example listed as: Ur-Priest, and it's got a load of fluffy goodness for fallen priests, IIRC.

hamishspence
2010-09-01, 10:45 AM
Hmm- how many PRCs have the same names as perjorative terms?

There's the blighter, the blackguard- any others?

Greenish
2010-09-01, 10:49 AM
Hmm- how many PRCs have the same names as perjorative terms?

There's the blighter, the blackguard- any others?According to wikipedia, "Swashbuckler Ö is a term that developed in the 16th century to describe rough, noisy and boastful swordsmen".

[Edit]: Rogue, obviously. The first entry for the word in OAD: "a dishonest or unprincipled man : you are a rogue and an embezzler."

dsmiles
2010-09-01, 10:50 AM
Hmm- how many PRCs have the same names as perjorative terms?

There's the blighter, the blackguard- any others?

Anything with 'witch' in it could be considered derogatory by a certain portion of the populace.

hamishspence
2010-09-01, 10:50 AM
And "warlock" derives from a word meaning "oathbreaker".

Mustn't forget "mountebank" from Complete Scoundrel & Dragon Compendium.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-01, 12:41 PM
So is the weak atomic force.:smallamused:

Eh, I'd rather be a Druid who worships Hydrogen bonds. Now that is a weak force, but very common in nature.

Telonius
2010-09-01, 12:56 PM
This is all starting to inspire me to write up a "natural philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosopher)" Druid. Turning into a bear - FOR SCIENCE!

Prestige class option:
Seeker of the Boson

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-01, 01:15 PM
Scientist bear iz making science

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/81948/81948,1194650118,1/stock-photo-doctor-bear-6826849.jpg

Optimator
2010-09-01, 01:39 PM
Now an HF bond on the other hand, that I can get behind!

snoopy13a
2010-09-01, 04:15 PM
I think the most likely reason that paladins fall and others don't is simply that for some reason, in many groups, a paladin seems to kick off a "mingame" within the game of the DM trying to make the paladin fall.

It might not even be intentional... but that paladin's code... it's just such a big, fat juicy target that even subconsciously, the DM arranges for events to put the paladin in "no win" situations regarding his/her code. And then there are the DMs who seem to take delight in doing it intentionally.

It's one of the reasons I hate paladins -- not for what the class is supposed to be (I heartily approve of the "knight in shining armor" archetype), but for what it tends to do to a game.

To be fair, that's more of a fault of the DM than the paladin class. Of course, having a paladin in the party does impose restrictions so a player shouldn't play a paladin unless the other players are alright with it. For example, a paladin would fit right in with a group of goody-two-shoes neutral good and lawful good characters but not in an anti-hero true neutral/chaotic neutral group.

Plus, if the players want to play a goody-two-shoes group, the DM should have a "black and white" campaign with no moral dilemenas. Thus, paladins are best played in certain groups with certain campaigns. After all, if the players want to be noble heroes then they ought to have the opportunity. However, it doesn't work when one player wants to be Sir Galahad and the rest want to be The Punisher.

Finally, the "knight in shining armor" archetype can be fulfilled by a good aligned fighter or cleric.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-01, 04:51 PM
To be fair, that's more of a fault of the DM than the paladin class. Of course, having a paladin in the party does impose restrictions so a player shouldn't play a paladin unless the other players are alright with it. For example, a paladin would fit right in with a group of goody-two-shoes neutral good and lawful good characters but not in an anti-hero true neutral/chaotic neutral group.

Plus, if the players want to play a goody-two-shoes group, the DM should have a "black and white" campaign with no moral dilemenas. Thus, paladins are best played in certain groups with certain campaigns. After all, if the players want to be noble heroes then they ought to have the opportunity. However, it doesn't work when one player wants to be Sir Galahad and the rest want to be The Punisher.

Finally, the "knight in shining armor" archetype can be fulfilled by a good aligned fighter or cleric.

The other problem is the DM: he is the one who decides if what you do is against your code or not. I had two different DMs in the past who teached me to first learn how is the DM before even thinking playing a Paladin:

DM1: You see a beggar on the corner
Me: I give him some pieces, he should be able to eat and sleep under a roof for a few days. I intended to go to make some donation to build a shelter, anyway...
DM1: Your Holy Sword tells you that you are wealthy enough to give more to the beggar: half your belongings would be fine.
Me: Errr... I quite NEED this money. The shelter will be costy, and anyway we need to refill ourselves since the last adventure.
DM1: Okay, your sword strips you of all your Paladin power. You need to atone.
Me: ...

DM2: The road is filled with mushrooms which launch poisonous gazes. Make your saves.
Everybody suceed, except Rangers' pet
DM2: Okay. Reis, you will have to heal the Ranger's dog.
Me: Err... Haven't you said this road is the only road to the village?
DM2: Yes, but that's not the point.
Me: It is! If it is the only road, then people travels here, and surely there MUST be poisonned villagers by now. I can heal disease only once per week, I will not use it on a dog instead of a villger.
DM2: It is a living being; heal it or lose your Paladin power...
Me: This absolutely stupid but fine...

Later... No, it is not finished, the BEST will come

DM2: So, the village is ruined, people starts re-building it, and you learn dragon hunters are after a gold dragon.
Me: Mmmh, let's see... The dragon is a creature of good, but he can defend himself. These villagers are defensless and without any roof above their head. I suggest we stay here and help them.
DM2: So you will INTENIONNALY abandon a creature of good?
Me: To help the villagers!
DM2: That doesn't change the outcome.
Me: Okay, fine, we will help the dragon.
DM2: So you abandon the villagers.
Me: ... What?
DM2: If you do this, you'll lose your Powers.
Me: And if I help the villagers?
DM2: You'll have to atone for not helping a powerful good creature, and lose your power during this time.
Me: THIS IS B*LLSH*T!!
DM2: Playing a Paladin is hard; if you can't play one, you should have told so!

Suffice to say I use the special Paladin power: Leave The Stupid DM and Enjoy My Nintendo.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-01, 04:53 PM
Suffice to say I use the special Paladin power: Leave The Stupid DM and Enjoy My Nintendo.

Wow you've had some pretty bad DM luck... but at least it isn't the worst I've seen on some boards...

Lord Vampyre
2010-09-01, 04:55 PM
Honestly it seems like the worst crime a druid can commit is to teach the druidic tongue to a non-druid.

Duke of URL
2010-09-01, 05:59 PM
To be fair, that's more of a fault of the DM than the paladin class. Of course, having a paladin in the party does impose restrictions so a player shouldn't play a paladin unless the other players are alright with it. For example, a paladin would fit right in with a group of goody-two-shoes neutral good and lawful good characters but not in an anti-hero true neutral/chaotic neutral group.

Plus, if the players want to play a goody-two-shoes group, the DM should have a "black and white" campaign with no moral dilemenas. Thus, paladins are best played in certain groups with certain campaigns. After all, if the players want to be noble heroes then they ought to have the opportunity. However, it doesn't work when one player wants to be Sir Galahad and the rest want to be The Punisher.

Finally, the "knight in shining armor" archetype can be fulfilled by a good aligned fighter or cleric.

Hence why I said "one of the reasons". The other main reason is that it it doesn't do the job it's supposed to do very well. I mean, it's better than a monk, but that's not hard, is it?

dsmiles
2010-09-01, 06:16 PM
This is all starting to inspire me to write up a "natural philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosopher)" Druid. Turning into a bear - FOR SCIENCE!

Prestige class option:
Seeker of the Boson

Really? It kind of inspires me to write up the "Atomic Druid" with the prestige class options of "Nuclear Physicist," and "Quantum Physicist."

Oslecamo
2010-09-01, 06:23 PM
Honestly it seems like the worst crime a druid can commit is to teach the druidic tongue to a non-druid.

Using the usual "paladin falls" logic around the net, you ever speaking on the special druid language or leting anyone see a glimpse of any writing of it would count as teaching and making you fall!:smalltongue:

But yes, it's ridiculous that paladins seem to get so much hardships put on their path, but aparently a druid can justify everything he does.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-01, 06:36 PM
Using the usual "paladin falls" logic around the net, you ever speaking on the special druid language or leting anyone see a glimpse of any writing of it would count as teaching and making you fall!:smalltongue:

But yes, it's ridiculous that paladins seem to get so much hardships put on their path, but aparently a druid can justify everything he does.
Some people seem to get a sadistic kick out of making someone who is supposed to be a paragon of idealistic virtue suffer.

Safety Sword
2010-09-01, 06:58 PM
Fun fact: deities can refuse to grant spells, but they cannot revoke spells already prepared by their Clerics.

Which means a cleric can technically fall and retain some of his spellcasting - it just becomes a limited resource until he atones or finds a new deity.

I can't see a cleric with one day of prepared spells actually holding out long against people determined to get to him and make him repent. Not if they really try...

Safety Sword
2010-09-01, 07:04 PM
"Quantum Physicist."

Not a playable class, you can never know where he is and his speed at the same time. Would make combat hell to DM.

derfenrirwolv
2010-09-01, 07:14 PM
He's an elven lich, in Champions of Ruin, and is a senior member of the elf-supremacist organization- the Eldeth Veluthraa or "Victorious Blade of the People".

arch enemy of the Elf Liberation Front, the Peoples victorious blade, and the blade of the victorious people.


Paladin is a narrow road to walk. Clerics, and even moreso druids, have a wider path to trod. There are a lot of aspects of nature, the kind gentle caring of a mother for her cubs (ng), the selfish practicality of most animals (and humans ) (tn), and the violence nature red in tooth in claw struggling to kill and dominate or be oppressed and die (ne), the precision clockwork order of nature and the concordant opposition of predator and prey (LN) the constant conflict of the wild, bound to no rules fettered to nothing and answerable to no laws (cn)


Clerics can worship their deity with any number of acceptable alignments, at least 3. A LG god can have LG, ng, and LN followers. A Ng deity can have LG NG CG , TN followers, and a TN god can gave clerics of ng tn ne, Ln CN alignments.

Esser-Z
2010-09-01, 08:03 PM
[stories]
.
That IS BS. The Paladin doesn't have to help a powerful good creature!



Additionally, a paladinís code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
His code demands protection of the innocent and helping those in need. It does not demand he aid powerful creatures that do not need his aid. Recommendation: next time, throw the code right back at the DM.

Furthermore, nothing there says he cannot perform triage, to determine whether he needs to save his curing or not. Nor does it say he has to *always give money*. Protecting the kingdom/world/etc from evil is *more helpful* than a simple donation to a beggar!


*argues with a guy who's not here. XD*

Aran Banks
2010-09-01, 11:11 PM
Not a playable class, you can never know where he is and his speed at the same time. Would make combat hell to DM.

Well, technically no, since quantum physics actually determines "The more exactly you know a position, the less you can predict its actions".

So the quantum physicist could actually be incredibly cool, performing multiple actions in a turn at the cost of a % chance of the action failing and/or giving your opponents a free AoO on you (maybe a free standard action?).

Then the quantum physicist could declare his/her actions ahead of time, but can be invisible for the duration of the time (+1 round?).



Wow... this actually sounds awesome.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-09-01, 11:27 PM
I like the way Manual of the Planes Deities & Demigods (written after FRCS) handled it- only those who "actively oppose the worship of the gods" get the Wall- those who didn't pick a deity simply wander the Fugue plane until something picks them up.

Sometimes it's a particularly compassionate deity, but more often it's wandering fiends.
If that's true, then Kaelyn the Dove (from the Mask of the Betrayer campaign in Neverwinter Nights 2) didn't have her facts straight. She implies that anyone who does not carry out the proper rituals to a deity, from avowed atheists to children who had the misfortune of dying before they learned what the gods were and why they should be worshiped to tribal peoples who never came into contact with the faiths of the various gods, got stuck in the wall.

EvilJames
2010-09-04, 04:16 AM
Nope- according to Deities & Demigods, St Cuthbert does not allow LE clerics, despite being LN himself.

Michael Ambrose is not an official representative of St Cuthbert- and whatever force he draws his blackguard powers from, it's not that deity.

I think he was kicked out of not just his old witch hunter outfit, but the church of St Cuthbert as a whole. Though he sees those that kicked him out as having succumbed to corruption.

Huh. That's kind of lame actually. It also kills a few character concepts I was thinking of along that line. Oh well maybe I can play an Ex-paladin/ blackguard of Wee jas. It's just that Cuthbert made more sense, since his followers are known for zealotry.

Clovis
2010-09-04, 06:40 AM
Eh, I'd rather be a Druid who worships Hydrogen bonds. Now that is a weak force, but very common in nature.

Hydrogen bombing-druid? :smallbiggrin:

Clovis
2010-09-04, 06:42 AM
At one point of our 3.5 D&D game my LG god refused to grant spells until we atoned for the near-genocide we caused. An honest mistake, we thought them lizardfolk were the baddies!

Greenish
2010-09-04, 06:58 AM
A Ng deity can have LG NG CG , TN followersClerics of an NG deity can't be Neutral (except in Eberron).

ericgrau
2010-09-04, 07:00 AM
Because jerks, including jerk DMs, are easily distracted, and paladins have all their attention right now because they're simpler. I mean how many people even figure out the code of conduct for clerics required by each of the gods?

If you want to keep your paladin from falling, give your DM a shinier target. Or game with one of the many decent DMs and don't be lawful stupid.

As for Druids, they don't fall because they autumn instead.

DarkEternal
2010-09-04, 09:10 AM
Some books have more detailed lists of duties for clerics of a particular god, and things the cleric is forbidden from doing, but players and DMs might not use them- since they are "not core".

Which books are these, I would like to read them. I want to make life a bit more difficult for my clerics, since they seem to take their powers for granted.

Greenish
2010-09-04, 09:22 AM
Which books are these, I would like to read them. I want to make life a bit more difficult for my clerics, since they seem to take their powers for granted.Well, their powers are granted to them. :smalltongue:

DarkEternal
2010-09-04, 09:30 AM
That be correct.

Still, I would like to show them that gods don't take pissing about just like that. Seems to me that a lot of the clerics don't follow their God's dogma in the slightest, but just chose it due to the alignment or domains. So yeah, those books would be grand for some divine retribution.

Kish
2010-09-04, 09:36 AM
Interesting. [Paladin Aribeth in Hordes of the Underdark] got her spells from Mephistopheles.
Erm...no, no she didn't. You're confusing "what Mephistopheles told her at the end in a bid to get her to Fall again" with "the truth."