Shadowrun advice

[caden_varn]

I'm thinking of starting up a Shadowrun game. I have played and DMed it a little about 15 years ago, but strangely enough I seem to have forgotten most of the rules since then :smallbiggrin:

So I am looking for some advice to get started. Digging through my stuff, I have editions 1 and 3 available - from some previous threads, I think the rules are better in 3? (I intend use the original fluff, as I am more familiar with it). I am not planning on buying any new stuff for it, so it would be one of those editions.

Based on other threads, I am looking at the following:


No PC deckers (as they slow the game for everyone else ) - they can hire NPC deckers if required for off-screen actions
I think I saw something about allowing drone Riggers but not vehicle Riggers - is this right, and what is the issue here?
Encourage characters to have a good speciality, but at least one backup skillset
Encourage mages not to take the blaster route


Are these reasonable? Anything else I need to consider?
I'm planning on using the First Run module to ease them (and me) into it gently - any comments about the module?

How compatible are the editions stats-wise? Can I take some of the stuff I have from 1st edition and use it in 3rd without a lot of work?

[huttj509]

The issue with vehicle riggers is similar to that with deckers in 3E.

Simply put, when they're doing their thing, others tend to be bored, and vice versa.

Drone riggers can have either themselves or a drone in with the group, while vehicle riggers are more likely to be waiting outside for the getaway.

Now it doesn't always play out that way, but for vehicle escapes and such, the other characters can be literally "along for the ride", though there may be opportunities for firing out windows, etc, if they wanna get crazy.

[Satyr]

3rd edition core rules, 2nd edition magic works pretty well in combination. Otherwise, there are few compatibility problems with a little feel for the system.

I never got the "no Deckers" rule. It isn't that bad after all, and you could just as well prohibit mages (or at least astral projection). If you know that your players are particularly impatient, deckers can be a problem, but otherwise they work just fine. Otherise you usually need a GMPC to follow the group, and that's just annoying. Just assume that most secure systems have no direct contact to the Matrix in itself and require an access to the mainframe within the compound, so that the Decker just doesn't sit on his arse back in security

Pure drone riggers can be annoying as hell, when they suffer pretty much no risk while they can be very efficient. Real vehicle riggers are always awesome if you like something like elaborate chase scenes. Ideally, the rigger should cover both aspects so that the character can offer direct support in the run and cover the exit strategy (drive like hell) afterwards. There is a reason why car chases are a staple of action movies; they are really spectacular, and thus it is foolish to leave them out when your game is effectively a reminiscence of said movies.

[Kurrel]

I've never played a game so effective at splitting a group as Shadowrun. Without the absolute strictest attention and time management, whole game sessions can be gobbled up by systems that a small part of the group has access to and the rest of the party has absolutely no relation to.

In the three games I've run, the two more recent ones have had no astral projection and no VR immersion. This led to a protracted argument with and the eventual departure of one of my players but the rest of the group has made clear that they have never had as much satisfaction from an SR game.

If the group were entirely awakened or entirely wired it would be a different matter and, as with all things, opinions vary. A full astral game is something I've been wanting to do but have yet to have the group to fulfill.

[Oracle_Hunter]

No PC deckers (as they slow the game for everyone else ) - they can hire NPC deckers if required for off-screen actions
I think I saw something about allowing drone Riggers but not vehicle Riggers - is this right, and what is the issue here?
Encourage characters to have a good speciality, but at least one backup skillset
Encourage mages not to take the blaster route


Are these reasonable? Anything else I need to consider?
Looks fine, though I just get rid of PC Deckers & Riggers in my games - but that's because I don't have any of the Rigger books.

In the interest of refocusing the game from combat, my SR3 game has a tweaked Skill List which combines several of the combat skills and expands some of the non-combat skills. My theory is that this makes the game somewhat less combat-focused and clarifies some game mechanics that novices may not notice the first time out (such as Stealth being used to detect hidden people).

I can post it if you're interested.

[Asheram]

A little question about you all who've played the different editions. Which is best best? The third or the fourth? Or are they about the same in the end?
As well, what are the differences in the rules?

[Oracle_Hunter]

A little question about you all who've played the different editions. Which is best best? The third or the fourth? Or are they about the same in the end?
As well, what are the differences in the rules?
The rules in SR4 are cleaner, but they violate the fluff of earlier editions. Yes, the fluff in SR is tied that tightly to the rules - particularly in terms of Magic.

Also, the feel of SR4 is more Diamond Age (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDiamondAge) than Neuromancer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Neuromancer). For me, SR is all about Gibsonian Cyberpunk so I prefer SR3 to 4; YMMV.

[Satyr]

A little question about you all who've played the different editions. Which is best best? The third or the fourth? Or are they about the same in the end?

SR4 is not exactly bad, but very different from the previous editions; as such, I found it a bit disappointing; the lack of pools and the more streamlined but also more restrictive and less flexible mechanisms seemed to be a step backwards for me; but I guess that for someone who has no previous experiences with the game would not have the same problems, as these are mostly the result of expectations and as such are quite subjective.
SR4 is also no cyberpunk game any more; it is basically a fluffier, softer and lighter take of the setting, and as usual, there are little ways which can so thoroughly reduce the quality of anything than making it softer and lighter.

[Autolykos]

No PC deckers (as they slow the game for everyone else ) - they can hire NPC deckers if required for off-screen actionsIt is possible to integrate deckers in the run, but it requires a lot of effort from the DM. Ideally the decker has to go inside and/or needs to "follow" the group to unlock doors, trick security systems and do all other kinds of creative mischief. This, however, requires the DM to shift attention between matrix and reality. The main problem with deckers I encountered was the DM not knowing the matrix rules good enough (since they are quite different from the rules in the physical world). But once you get used to it, deckers work just as well as astral mages.

I think I saw something about allowing drone Riggers but not vehicle Riggers - is this right, and what is the issue here?Pure vehicle riggers should be NPCs - Player riggers should either have drones or specialize on electronic warfare (and capture their drones/turrets/whatever). I favor the latter because that saves a lot of money on repairs, ammunition and new toys - pure drone riggers usually have very little left after paying for the repairs. This does not mean that riggers should not use vehicles at all - they should just be able to do something else.

Encourage characters to have a good speciality, but at least one backup skillsetThe rules do that pretty well by themselves. A team of specialists can solve a lot of problems the same number of generalists can't. However, some skills should be on any character sheet, namely Stealth, Athletics, Etiquette, Pistols, Unarmed Combat (having to default on Strength in melee sucks hard).

Encourage mages not to take the blaster route
No need to. The only worthwhile blaster spells are Stun Bolt and Energy Bolt (and perhaps the Ball versions). Also, a specialized blaster mage is just a streetsam with low initiative - there are much better uses for magic.
(Although blaster mages with some Bioware - especially Trauma Dampeners - sure are a scary thing)

[BobVosh]

I actually don't know the fluff for 1st ed SR, but the mechanics for 3rd are ok. Avoid the 10(or is it 100) to 1 matrix passes to meatspace passes, and you don't need to stop it. Also encourage the rigger to do vehicles as a secondary for his drones or whatever.

In 4ed a rigger can also double up as a decker to cover both angles. Get a drone with some plugs for terminals and deck it up after getting in with the drone. The mage and rigger can be unconscious in the get away car as close as they really felt like coming.

This worked well with our group, I can't guarantee its good for everyone.

[Hawriel]

The best way to make SR more of a kaper/espianage move is to enforce resonable and logical consiquences to kick in the door rambo behavior.

Be upfront on how a real shadowrunner wants to do the mission with out any one knowing he was ever there. So no evidence like, dead guards, stolen items not on the mission contract, or clothing that makes you look like the Leagon of Doom.

Dont ban blaster mages. After all the opposition mages, shamans, guardian spirits, and the number one rule of geek the mage first, will keep them in line. Needing to soke the drain from a 6+ force deadly fireball will also teach the player moderation in his magic use.

Deckers dont need to be banned. If you can run a drone rigger you can run a decker. Just make the decker run in real time. Or you could say one round meat world equals two/three rounds in the matrix. Having runs whare the decker needs to be on sight helps with this too.

[caden_varn]

Thanks for the advice everyone - now I need to read the manuals (and dig some of them out of the loft...)

I think I'll stick with the no deckers/no riggers for the first adventure at least, while I attempt to get my alcohol-soaked brain around the rules (as all the players will be new to SR too afaik) - after that, we can see where the group wants to go. Since they are all new to the game, they'll need a bit of guidance on chargen. (although I think most have played Cyberpunk at least, which is something)

#

In the interest of refocusing the game from combat, my SR3 game has a tweaked Skill List which combines several of the combat skills and expands some of the non-combat skills. My theory is that this makes the game somewhat less combat-focused and clarifies some game mechanics that novices may not notice the first time out (such as Stealth being used to detect hidden people).

I can post it if you're interested.

That would be great. Woukld be interesting to see where more experienced peeps have made changes...

[Autolykos]

In the interest of refocusing the game from combat, my SR3 game has a tweaked Skill List which combines several of the combat skills and expands some of the non-combat skills. My theory is that this makes the game somewhat less combat-focused and clarifies some game mechanics that novices may not notice the first time out (such as Stealth being used to detect hidden people).I agree on the "clarifies the mechanics" part, but this fix should make combat characters stronger (since they need less Karma to boost their skills, get more bang for the buck with Reflex Recorders, ...
The only combat skills that can be safely merged IMHO are all the off-hand skills. Just say that your off-hand skill for a specific weapon is the same as the primary skill, but not higher than the (now universal) off-hand skill. I usually also merge all Firearms B/R skills into one, but splitting off all the exotic stuff like tasers, flamethrowers, squirt-guns, etc.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I agree on the "clarifies the mechanics" part, but this fix should make combat characters stronger (since they need less Karma to boost their skills, get more bang for the buck with Reflex Recorders, ...
The only combat skills that can be safely merged IMHO are all the off-hand skills. Just say that your off-hand skill for a specific weapon is the same as the primary skill, but not higher than the (now universal) off-hand skill. I usually also merge all Firearms B/R skills into one, but splitting off all the exotic stuff like tasers, flamethrowers, squirt-guns, etc.
Are we talking about SR3? :smallconfused:

Anyhoo, I'll post the full rules when I am both home and conscious, but in short my fixes were:
- Get rid of B/R skills. I only use the base book, and aside from Electronics B/R (which I treat specially) it's not really all that clear when you'd bother using them, much less how they'd work.
- merge or remove esoteric skills (e.g. underwater combat); they so rarely come up that they only serve as traps.
- Reshuffle CHA skills into the Bluff/Insight/Diplomacy/Intimidate paradigm (easier to adjudicate)
- expand the physical skill list & add Perception
- Rejigger the defaulting system

[Autolykos]

Okay, that makes sense. I thoght you'd merge all Firearms skills into one like SR2 does...
B/R skills will be useful once you have Riggers/Deckers in your group - otherwise they are pretty much NPC only.
And yes, Underwater Combat is probably the most useless skill on the list - good riddance.

[Grommen]

If you cut out the deckers, in my own opinion, you greatly limit one of the more interesting avenues in the game. They are a bit harder to handle on a run, but if you read the basic rules for the matrix, and play around with it a wile it become pretty easy to handle. Now as for the DM making security sheaths. Those be a bugger. I use a random matrix generator. Then I save the file off on my computer and reuse them. You only need to tweek a few things to change a host after that.

Riggers are also one of my more favorite avenues of the game. Probably because they are a good NPC character. I can use the drones (Just like our real world drones but controlled by the rigger) to support a team, or harass the snot out of them. And they use the vehicle rules so all is good.

Those of you that say riggers have no risk...All I can say is that you have apparently not crashed a quarter million neuyn drone. Not to mention dump shock is not a pretty thing.

I still have not figured out the 3ed vehicular chasing rules so I have to fake that stuff all the time.

I did not like splitting all the gun skills up at first. However after putting 50 karma on a character you see why this is a better idea. Mages suck up karma like a sponge and they never....ever have enough. The rest of your players will be looking for something to blow their excess karma on. Trust me on this one. Only thing we changed with all the gun skills is Shotguns. If you know how to load a weapon, aim in a general direction, and pull the trigger. You are now an expert in Shotgun-Fu. Shotguns default to what ever your highest firearm skill is without dice steps. Merry Christmas chummers!

O and "Never trust and Elf"
"Don't make a deal with a Dragon"
"Incoming fire is never to be considered friendly"
"If someone tries to kill you. You try to kill them right back"

[Oracle_Hunter]

I did not like splitting all the gun skills up at first. However after putting 50 karma on a character you see why this is a better idea.
If you follow the Karma award guidelines in the SR3 book, no character is getting more than 2-3 Karma a session; the Karma costs for advancement for Attributes and Skills higher than Linked Attribute mean you're going to be waiting 5+ sessions to raise any skill to 7 once it hits 6.

Heck, I've taken to treating SR as a no-XP system, with rewards showing up through IC actions. If I ever get a steady campaign going I might fix the advancement rules as well.