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Umael
2010-08-31, 11:41 AM
I'm curious how people feel about this, from both sides of the fence.

I.e., as a GM, what is the longest backstory you'll accept (and under what conditions)? As a player, what is the longest bakcstory you've ever submitted / had accepted?

((I have a feeling I'll hold the record on this one, which is more a commentary of my neurotic nature than a brag...))

Snake-Aes
2010-08-31, 11:44 AM
It doesn't have to be very big. If it'll be shared with the players, something that doesn't take more than 3 or 4 lines is enough.
Example 1) I lived in <PLACE> for most of my life, but was not satisfied with it. Eventually I married a traveling merchant and, one year later, he killed my son and his father, then died. Since then I joined the church of <GOD> and travel the world.
You will probably want to flesh out some details, but don't overdo it or you won't be able to add impromptu traits.

Caphi
2010-08-31, 11:48 AM
I skeleton mine before the game starts, and then fill most of the details in during the first few sessions as I get a grip of the world, my character, and the rest of the party.

I also do most of this behind the scenes and tell it in-character as much or as little as the game warrants.

iDM
2010-08-31, 11:49 AM
Once I had a character whose backstory needed an index and a cross-reference... it was really more of a mini novel than it was a backstory. My GM read all 30+ pages and then I only played the character once or twice. Another time I actually drew up a ten page comic for a backstory. Our group loves long, elaborate backstories.

Satyr
2010-08-31, 11:51 AM
Long enough to get the basics across, not so long that it becomes cumbersome to handle. I usually assume 2 to 3 pages as a standard, but less can be okay; after all it's quality, not quantity which is important. More than four pages are a bit too much and the details become too difficult to remember.
Less than one page is usually too little to lay out a character, so that's the other extreme.

dsmiles
2010-08-31, 11:52 AM
As a DM, I require players to write a character backstory. In 15 years of DMing, I've recieved a complete, properly formatted essay, a few sentence fragments on a napkin, and everything in between. Each was equally acceptable, as long as I have notes to promote the character's future (IC) goals and desires/hopes and dreams.

As a player, I usually give a few paragraphs (no more than a page) that include a fairly detailed backstory and a paragraph on the character's hopes and dreams/goals and desires.

Dizlag
2010-08-31, 11:52 AM
As a DM I will not limit the length of a backstory and I will read every page because if the player puts that much effort into it I owe it to him to read it.

As a Player I tend to keep my backstory to less than a page.

Dizlag

The Glyphstone
2010-08-31, 11:54 AM
I wish my players would write backstories.

dsmiles
2010-08-31, 11:56 AM
I wish my players would write backstories.

I'll come game with you, and I'll write you an epic backstory that covers 15 pages front and back, single spaced, 8 point text, k?

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 11:57 AM
I'm never sure. I've had characters with no backstory (hey, you want to play? Roll up a character and join!) to characters with 10+ page backstories (I had a month of planning it with the DM who was also my room-mate). As a player and as a DM I prefer ones that have adventure hooks so even if mine is only a few paragraphs I will sometimes include notes like: "He's searching for his father, if he meets him then he'll decide whether the old man needs to die for abandoning his mom or not" or "he'd rush back home if he heard his mother was threatened" or "his brother is secretly evil and plotting to gain power" (okay these are simple ones made up on the spot; I've probably used them before but I normally have some better ones too).

I'd say a page or two is probably best. Although if I know the world well enough (like in the 10+ page story example it was a world I had made and my room-mate was taking over it) it will be longer, if I don't have information on the world it'll be pretty short.

Umael
2010-08-31, 12:00 PM
In my gaming group, I am notorious for my backstories being lengthy.

One GM told me that I could not write a story longer than 1500 words. I clocked it in at 1499.

The thing is, I am a good writer, so I wasn't just filling space.

The longest story I have submitted was 30+ pages. I am currently working on one that is a just a wee* bit longer.

* - Ever heard of NaNoWriMo?

Kiero
2010-08-31, 12:02 PM
2-3 paragraphs of relevant hook-fodder. No more than a page.

Strawberries
2010-08-31, 12:04 PM
I posted this on another thread, but it seems to fit here too. Hope it's okay if I quote:


That's fair, and that's why I usually do backstories like this:

-"Cliff's Notes" backstory: a paragraph or two, the basics of who the character is and where they come from. That's what I usually give the DM when I create a character

-Complete backstory, as I imagined it, with more in-depth description of events, some npcs etc. I don't write more than a couple of pages (I'm not a writer, and moreover, in pbps, I'm writing in a language not my own, so it gets a bit difficult for me). If the DM says they're interested in in-dephts backgrounds, I hand this over.

-NPCs: those are the people that are somehow important for my character, but that are not essential for his backstory (as in, the background makes sense also without them). I check with the DM before adding those, as some people may not like a player to detail that much of the world for them. If the DM is okay with them, then they become part of the character sheet.

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 12:05 PM
* - Ever heard of NaNoWriMo?

Yes, tried it once... but inspiration didn't hit in that month. Isn't it November?

I did write a 10,000+ word segment in the middle of a fake saga (I started with the birth of the main character so about 1/3rd through) in 6 days during college one time (which is why I tried NaNoWriMo) but rewarded myself with a bag of candy and then stopped...

Edit:
@Strawberries: I like that process it looks like it would be pretty good.

Umael
2010-08-31, 12:11 PM
Yes, tried it once... but inspiration didn't hit in that month. Isn't it November?

Yes, it is.

However, since writing is a serious hobby for me, when I set about doing serious writing, I write like I was in NaNoWriMo. Writing should wait for November.

@ Strawberry:

I plan on submitting the Summary (six paragraphs) to the GM. Once he has read it, I will submit the Synopsis (five pages). After that, the story (a lot more than five pages).

(Your method is good too. I was just commenting on how my method differs.)

valadil
2010-08-31, 12:12 PM
I think one page is the standard. I'll write more if I expect the GM to use it and less if I expect it to be glossed over and ignored. My longest came out to 14 pages and was supplemented by in character blogs, emails, and code samples. That said, I know the GM very well and he enjoys my writing. He returned the favor with an 11 page backstory that he said was only half done.

In case anyone is interested, here's my 14 page backstory (http://gm.sagotsky.com/?page_id=166). It's for a Mage game set in Boston. The game is still going on and if any of the other players accidentally stumble upon this, I'd appreciate them not reading it as there are spoilers (hence the tags!).

Where my opinion strays from the norm is on the content of the backstory. Most of the time, I don't need a name for parents and siblings unless they were especially close. I'm not interested in biographical information on the character.

I'm more interested in what the character is doing now. What makes him tick. Why does he adventure. That sort of thing. If explaining that requires mention of his upbringing, go for it. But if the upbringing is distant past it can be skipped over. What I really want to uncover with this is motivation. If I put a new character in town and said you have 3 weeks, what do you do, I want the player to be ready with something to work on.

I also think of backstory as a way to feel out the character. It always bothers me when I'm asked to introduce a character I've never played before. It feels like I have to make a first impression with a blank slate. I'd rather play the character a little and try out some dialogue without anybody watching before I have to introduce him. Describing how he talked his way out of getting mugged will give me that. Describing how his brother hit him on the head every day until he turned 15 and died of the pox won't.

As a GM I like to reward backstory. That said, I don't want to blindly reward length or quantity. At best that leads to me having to read fiction. At worst my players will plagiarize other writing just so they can get bonus points. I want to avoid both situations.

Here's the system I've come up with. I give everyone a flat reward if they write a backstory. Then, each time I use an element of their backstory in game I give another reward. The reward is higher if I use the backstory to hurt the party. Basically I'm a lazy GM and if my players give me free NPCs I'd rather use those than have to write my own NPCs.

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 12:20 PM
Here's the system I've come up with. I give everyone a flat reward if they write a backstory. Then, each time I use an element of their backstory in game I give another reward. The reward is higher if I use the backstory to hurt the party. Basically I'm a lazy GM and if my players give me free NPCs I'd rather use those than have to write my own NPCs.

Can I play in one of your games :smallbiggrin:?

I might be a masochist

Strawberries
2010-08-31, 12:25 PM
@Strawberries: I like that process it looks like it would be pretty good.


Yes, it is.
@ Strawberry:
(Your method is good too. I was just commenting on how my method differs.)

Er...thanks guys. :smallredface: I should mention that I began roleplaying in February, on those very forums, so I'm not the biggest authority in the matter. The three-step backstory seemed necessary in a contest like the online one, when I may not know the DM at all. If I was familiar with their preference, I'd tailor the submitted backstory to those, and keep all the other bits in my head, as roleplaying aid.

Ignition
2010-08-31, 12:27 PM
I've found "less is more" to be a pretty good rule of thumb for backstories; however, there's an extreme, almost post-modern level of "less is more" of which I remain wary.

Generally, when I sit down to create a character, I come up with three paragraphs, labeled as follows: Where They Were, Where They Are, Where They Are Going. This neatly covers 'far' history (birthplace, parents, lifestyle, education, etc.), 'near' history (events surrounding the impetus of the story told through the game, i.e. meeting the party/a party member, etc.), and 'foreseeable future' (goals, desires, wants, needs, probable tripping points and the likely outcome of his/her flaws). As long as these paragraphs are completed to my satisfaction, I'm informed enough to play the character, and the GM is informed enough to help make the game relevant to my character. It can help to have a "concept" statement, kind of like a mission statement, a single sentence/fragment to overall describe the character.

Frankly, no one is going to be as impressed with your character as you are, so if you're going to try and sell it, grab your audience's attention quickly. 15 pages, double-sided, single spaced, 8-point font, final destination isn't going to do that :smallwink:

Lord Vampyre
2010-08-31, 12:39 PM
All I really care about is the basic concept. I'll generally work with my players as to why their character would be in my world. Sometimes I will even go so far as to dictate what would've happened for them to be able to play their character.

For instance, the last time someone wanted to play an angel in my game set on the prime material, I told them their character would have had to have experienced some sort of fall from grace. They were using the Savage Species version so they could start at first level. Now I left it to the player to figure out why his character fell from grace and was sent to the prime material as punishment, but I had to find something that made sense to the current campaign.

kamikasei
2010-08-31, 12:42 PM
It depends entirely on the game. I've played one character where I never bothered to write out his backstory (though I had its outline in mind) and the rest of the group only got a paragraph of description of why he was with them. My longest (http://thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=7394) clocked in at over 2000 words. It's simply a question of how long it takes to lay out the important details of the story you have in mind - that longer backstory came to me as more or less a single idea that turned out to take surprisingly many words to lay out (and pin down all the details the DM or I might need to refer to later).

How important backstory is varies from game to game and thus its length is a function of how much information might be relevant.

Drascin
2010-08-31, 12:47 PM
As a GM, I don't mind as long as it had some thought or interest put into it - a set of questions and answers are easier to do for those with less literary inclinations, and serve to give an idea of the character just the same.

As a player... I will admit that I am hopelessly verbose and unless I'm especifically restraining myself, they end up being quite unreasonably long :smallredface:.

thompur
2010-08-31, 12:55 PM
For me, it depends upon how much game world information the DM has given me. If it's a complex world, with specific countries, cities, various political climates and/or a rich theological history, then I'll make a very rich, detailed character, with a history tied to a particular area. If it's more genaric, I'll usually stick to family history.

Erom
2010-08-31, 01:00 PM
As a DM: Your backstory should cover the following points. The shorter you can do that in, the better. 3-4 sentences is about ideal. I'm not going to read more than a page.

* Your background (Bob was born in <place>, educated at the mage accademy there.)
* Your personality (As an academy certified wizard, Bob is somewhat elitist and aloof, but is a good friend to those close to him.)
* Your "big picture" motivation (In his youth, Bob discovered partially complete notes on a formula for an immortality elixir, and has dedicated his life to completing this research.)
* Your "small picture" motivation as to why you are where you are when the campaign starts. (Bob is in the town market where the party meets because he is shopping for a new wand of cure light wounds.)

Umael
2010-08-31, 01:04 PM
Frankly, no one is going to be as impressed with your character as you are, so if you're going to try and sell it, grab your audience's attention quickly. 15 pages, double-sided, single spaced, 8-point font, final destination isn't going to do that :smallwink:

A few minor corrections:

It is likely that no one is going to be as impressed with your character as you are. 15 pages, double-sided, single-spaced, 8-point font, final destination isn't going to do that on its own.

Honestly, I love good backstories, mine or someone else's. The trouble is that with any story, you need someone who knows how to write. The rule of thumb is that you have 25-words to get their attention. Then, once you have their attention, you need to be able to keep it, all the way to the end.

Luckily, most people reading a backstory aren't that picky, which is good, because most people who write a backstory aren't that good. The GM is likely a friend, he or she is more probable to have ask the player to write the story than the player is to submit it on his or her own, and the purpose of the story is not for the story itself, but as support for something bigger. As such, there is generally a lot of leeway.

mucat
2010-08-31, 01:09 PM
Strawberries makes a good point: if you're going to write a huge character history, it's good to also write a much shorter summary.

Also, I suggest avoiding the "this happened, then this happened, then this other thing happened" format where you simply reel off important events and people in sequential order. Much more interesting to show a few key scenes that illustrate who a character is rather than a blow-by-blow list of events.

Usually, my first attempt at a story for a given character falls into that "dry, sequential history" trap. They're not usually terrible, but they're not a whole lot of fun either. If I have time to go back and rewrite the history, I usually reduce it to a few scenes, or even a single, written more as a short story than as a comprehensive history. Usually, this streamlined version is no shorter than the original -- often, it's longer -- but I always like it better.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-31, 01:15 PM
As a player and as a DM I prefer ones that have adventure hooks so even if mine is only a few paragraphs I will sometimes include notes like: "He's searching for his father, if he meets him then he'll decide whether the old man needs to die for abandoning his mom or not"
Was he named Sue? Did he recognize his father by his evil eye?

I try to keep the relevant information of my backstory fairly short, a paragraph or two. But since it's a story, I'll write it up as such. Excerpts from a journal for a more cerebral character are a good example.
A vaguely vikingish character, his backstory was written like my character was speaking at the wake for his best friend/blood brother/former adventuring partner. So you learned a lot about the dead person, but had to make guesses what my character was like using what I chose to say at the wake. I did a pretty poor job on that one, but it was a good idea.

As a DM, I've gotten backstories from the party where I swear they all sat down and wrote up the same backstory.
-Auspicious birth,
-loner during childhood (for reason X,Y, or Z),
-family slaughtered by monster X, Y, Z, swore revenge,
-trained under tutelage of a master in X,Y,Z,
-new master threatened by same monster as before,
-kill monster but fail to save masters life.
-Go on quest to stop it from ever happening again.

I've also gotten backstories that were technically very detailed, but the player must've been watching a soap opera while writing it, because the story was so poorly put together I couldn't follow it.

CakeTown
2010-08-31, 01:56 PM
I wish my players would write backstories.

Agree there. I've only run a couple games before, but my players haven't written any backstories. I'd prefer it if they at least wrote a paragraph or something.

As a player, I tend to write fairly long backstories. For my rogue, I don't quite remember the page length, but it was at least 1000 words. Since we can't play over the summer, our DM had us write a little bit on what our character did after defeating the BBEG(to allow for changes to our character). Mine turned out to be about 3 pages, with half a page of footnotes.

The rest of the group didn't write as much for their backstories. They ranged from a paragraph or two from the fighter to a single sentence from the ranger.

I think I write too much, but I really can't help it. I just get so involved with my character and I don't stop until I've got every last detail written down. Next time I DM, I'm going to require players to write at least 4 sentences. That's a good length for a backstory.

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 02:08 PM
-Auspicious birth,
-loner during childhood (for reason X,Y, or Z),
-family slaughtered by monster X, Y, Z, swore revenge,
-trained under tutelage of a master in X,Y,Z,
-new master threatened by same monster as before,
-kill monster but fail to save masters life.
-Go on quest to stop it from ever happening again.


I've hit all but the bolded two; and rarely in the same character. Loner during childhood I try to use for chaotic or low Charisma characters. Family slaughtered by monsters has been my character's motivation a few times (why is the wizard/druid fighting illithids? they killed his family, his best friend/teacher, and his whole village at the same time; actually that kind of falls under one of the bolded ones... in his defense his best friend only helped him with wizardry and they had roughly equal status). Trained under tutelage of master? Sometimes for fighters and rogues, usually for wizards, and other high training classes, and very rarely for sorcerers and other "hey it's natural' classes. Auspicious birth? Probably once or twice but I try to avoid this one, giving the DM a prophecy of how only I can stop great evil X or some such seems like cheating. I have had characters born under circumstances that could be taken as auspicious, or a sign that they would fall and become a great and terrible force of evil.

Edit: 4 sentences :smalleek: I rarely can write that little about a character that I actually care about.

Ignition
2010-08-31, 02:16 PM
Luckily, most people reading a backstory aren't that picky, which is good, because most people who write a backstory aren't that good. The GM is likely a friend, he or she is more probable to have ask the player to write the story than the player is to submit it on his or her own, and the purpose of the story is not for the story itself, but as support for something bigger. As such, there is generally a lot of leeway.

As a dyed in the wool pessimist (and to one degree or another, perfectionist), I'm not that charitable :smallwink:

I guess, though, I'm kind of a fringe case. When I do get around to making a character that isn't just a mechanical framework, I spend a lot of time on making a background that flows with the world, that plays with storytelling and character tropes, and in the process of making far more notes on the character than I will never ever show or explain to anyone, I then parse those notes down into the aforementioned three paragraphs of character concept. If it's worth doing - that is to say, if I think the GM's actually going to make use of that information, and that's not an assumption I can make universally - then I go through many drafts and combinations of concepts before I have something I'm happy to turn into the GM.

I'd rather not even bother if I think the concept isn't good enough, and/or if I think the GM's not going to do anything with the information. I'm fine with playing Figh Tor the swordsman, or Claire Ack the holy priest, just to get the game off the ground, but if pressed for background, I make what I turn in to the GM not only a presentation inandof itself, but also as high quality as I can make it. Again, though, I'm a fringe case.

Also, we're all our own worst critics - except for those of us with supreme delusions of grandeur, naturally :smallwink:

elpollo
2010-08-31, 02:48 PM
I'm confused as to why some people thing little/no backstory is a bad thing. In my mind backstory has one purpose - to communcate to the DM aspects of your character that you would like to pursue in game. It's nice to have an idea of what your character has done, but more than one or two pages seems extreme. Why bother? That's no longer backstory but fanfic for your character. Perhaps I'd understand longer in a game where you're playing experienced characters, but 30+ seems rediculous. The game isn't just about you, and shoving that much information at the GM either means they'll feel pressured into spending more time following your leads, or have to try and wade through to find what they think are the most important to you. If that's not clear then he follows up the wrong ones and you feel as if you've missed out, and if it is then why have you written the other 28+ pages?

Greyfeld
2010-08-31, 03:12 PM
I'm thinking anything more than a few paragraphs (or maybe a little over a page in extreme cases) is excessive. You're writing up a summary of your character's background, now writing a novel. The idea is to give the DM an idea of who your character is, where he's going, and to give you (the player) a backdrop to evolve your character around.

The way I see it, if you feel the need to write a 15+ page history for your character, you'd probably be happier just writing a book, rather than playing an RPG.

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 03:13 PM
I'm confused as to why some people thing little/no backstory is a bad thing. In my mind backstory has one purpose - to communcate to the DM aspects of your character that you would like to pursue in game. It's nice to have an idea of what your character has done, but more than one or two pages seems extreme. Why bother? That's no longer backstory but fanfic for your character. Perhaps I'd understand longer in a game where you're playing experienced characters, but 30+ seems rediculous. The game isn't just about you, and shoving that much information at the GM either means they'll feel pressured into spending more time following your leads, or have to try and wade through to find what they think are the most important to you. If that's not clear then he follows up the wrong ones and you feel as if you've missed out, and if it is then why have you written the other 28+ pages?

Well I agree that 30+ seems ridiculous, my biggest was ~10 and it had full description of all my character's gear, included descriptions of how he met/knew 3 important NPCs in his backstory (including a 500 word story written for a college class), included who he was, why he was there, what he intended to do, etc. And even then it was an exception and for a 9th level character.

I've gotten used to making characters at minimum 5th level which means I feel obliged to say how they learned what they know. How did the human become an anima mage? Or how did the warrior become a master of the nine? I like trying to answer those in my back story.

valadil
2010-08-31, 03:14 PM
It's nice to have an idea of what your character has done, but more than one or two pages seems extreme
...
why have you written the other 28+ pages?

First off, I don't treat the story as a resume. Characters have done things that aren't listed. I don't think anyone needs 28 pages of history.

The main purpose of writing it for me is to get into character. This isn't just for finding the character the first time around, but getting into character for subsequent game sessions. Probably not necessary if you're gaming every week, but if a game is only happening on a monthly basis I'll reread my notes between sessions.

I'll also point out that I wouldn't write an epic backstory for any old game. If the GM is just throwing monsters at you and doesn't care what characters show up, I'll write something between a page and a paragraph. A multipage tale would go to waste in that sort of game. It only really makes a difference in a game that focuses on character growth and development more than on telling a story or picking some fights. Characters who are dynamic, who grow over the course of the game, require more explanation than a single paragraph can provide.

valadil
2010-08-31, 03:18 PM
The way I see it, if you feel the need to write a 15+ page history for your character, you'd probably be happier just writing a book, rather than playing an RPG.

I can understand that sentiment, but I just can't agree with it. The difference between writing a novel and participating in an RPG (and I'm intentionally opening this up to include participating as a player and GM) is that in a novel you control everything. A player only has his own PC. A GM has everything but the PCs. I find it more interesting to write without full control. I wanted the other players to do things to me that I don't expect. I want to be surprised and have to improvise my way around situations I couldn't have planned for. As a writer, I am not able to surprise myself (and this may just be one of my failings as a writer). As a gamer, there's plenty of surprise.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-31, 03:19 PM
I'm curious how people feel about this, from both sides of the fence.

I.e., as a GM, what is the longest backstory you'll accept (and under what conditions)? As a player, what is the longest bakcstory you've ever submitted / had accepted?

As long as you need to describe your character. Volume does not imply quality.

The longest I've ever written is 1 page. I don't require written backstories, so I typically don't get anything beyond a brief verbal one.

Lord Loss
2010-08-31, 03:24 PM
My player once gave me 4 pages on his character, six or seven on his character's religion and the war between his gods and a 10-20 page notepad detailing every god and their goals, input in the Great War, which side they tooke (Light, Dark, Elders), a few important parts of the Inner World (from which his character originates) and some information on the Celestial and Damned weapons possesed by the heroes of Light and Dark and the abilities of the Dark heroes.

It was EPIC. :smallbiggrin:.

Cespenar
2010-08-31, 03:26 PM
In almost all PbP games, GMs tend to pick characters based on their backstories to gauge their writing prowess, so I can understand people coming up with longer and longer stories.

I usually keep mines about "normal" length (between 500-750 words), though, for better or for worse.

Umael
2010-08-31, 03:45 PM
The 1499-word story I wrote was for an Exalted character (I had never played Exalted before). When the GM was helping me make my character, we got to the martial arts section and he asked me, "What style would your character use?"

I convinced him to read my character backstory right then and there. He was a bit disgruntled, but he did so.

Once finished, he pointed to one of the styles. "That one."

It probably took just as long for him to read it as it would have been if I tried to explain it to him, given that I didn't know the system (or the setting that well).

herrhauptmann
2010-08-31, 03:50 PM
I've hit all but the bolded two;

I try to stay away from those tropes these days, but I've used most of them. Family slaughtered/go for revenge. Master/teacher killed- go for revenge. Loner as child/driven out from village as a teen.
I've never used 'auspicious birth' in a backstory. For a long time I was the worst optimizer, rarely even effective, let alone optimized, so the auspicious birth didn't seem to fit with a prophecy.


My issue with it was that all 3 used all of those tropes.
-Born during an eclipse, a witch's fortune at naming ceremony, and ditch delivered by a dead woman (hanged pregnant woman, baby came out shortly after she died).
All 3 had high charisma, but one was a loner, one obsessed with the dead, and one was kind in a village of mean people
Monsters: Orcs, giants, a dragon

Now match the characters with their backstory: (3.0 btw) 17 cha Paladin, 16 cha Necromancer, and 18 cha ranger1/sorcX

Paladin: Ditch delivered, kind, orcs
Necro: Eclipse, obsessed, giant
Sorc/rgr: Naming ceremony, loner, demon

kamikasei
2010-08-31, 03:50 PM
I'm confused as to why some people thing little/no backstory is a bad thing. In my mind backstory has one purpose - to communcate to the DM aspects of your character that you would like to pursue in game.
I can think of at least one other purpose - to set down some things that are true about the character that may be relevant to playing her. Some characters simply have complex pasts, or simple pasts from which details are important. There are some aspects of a backstory which may be very easy to explain in summary ("estranged noble scion") but which require a fair bit of expansion in order to be properly usable ("relationships with father, brother, and sister look like this, for these reasons"). It depends on the level of detail in the setting and campaign, and that employed by the other players as well.

Yes, if you look at cases where people essentially write short excerpts from their characters' pasts as stories, that's less "useful backstory" than "practicing the character's voice". But a lengthy description of how the character got to where she is today and what impact that journey had on her, even if 90% of it never translates in to plot hooks for the DM, can still exist without being fanfic or unrealistically epic.

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 03:58 PM
I try to stay away from those tropes these days, but I've used most of them. Family slaughtered/go for revenge. Master/teacher killed- go for revenge. Loner as child/driven out from village as a teen.
I've never used 'auspicious birth' in a backstory. For a long time I was the worst optimizer, rarely even effective, let alone optimized, so the auspicious birth didn't seem to fit with a prophecy.


My issue with it was that all 3 used all of those tropes.
-Born during an eclipse, a witch's fortune at naming ceremony, and ditch delivered by a dead woman (hanged pregnant woman, baby came out shortly after she died).
All 3 had high charisma, but one was a loner, one obsessed with the dead, and one was kind in a village of mean people
Monsters: Orcs, giants, a dragon

Now match the characters with their backstory: (3.0 btw) 17 cha Paladin, 16 cha Necromancer, and 18 cha ranger1/sorcX

Paladin: Ditch delivered, kind, orcs
Necro: Eclipse, obsessed, giant
Sorc/rgr: Naming ceremony, loner, demon

Got the necro, swapped 2 out of 3 on the Paladin and Ran/Sor.
Really though having the same monster slaughter your family and your mentor is just a little bit of overkill.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-31, 04:01 PM
Well not the exact same monster.
Like the orc one, it was just a random tribe each time.
The demon one, I'm pretty sure he was thinking of a balor, but the random magic object he grabbed from Master's dropped equipment to attack it was enough to banish the demon (this was for a level 3 character mind you)

Zaydos
2010-08-31, 04:03 PM
Well not the exact same monster.
Like the orc one, it was just a random tribe each time.
The demon one, I'm pretty sure he was thinking of a balor, but the random magic object he grabbed from Master's dropped equipment to attack it was enough to banish the demon (this was for a level 3 character mind you)

Still you only need one horrible incident with orcs in your backstory.

Edit: And I can say I have listed tropes to define my character before in case his backstory was too long. These were character traits, though, like Evilutionary Biologist (okay I like TVtropes).

Umael
2010-08-31, 04:30 PM
I'm confused as to why some people thing little/no backstory is a bad thing. In my mind backstory has one purpose - to communcate to the DM aspects of your character that you would like to pursue in game.

That's not the only thing a backstory can do; hence, whether it has one purpose is not is immaterial when it has several functions.

Writing a backstory lets you get into your character's head, as well as gives the GM an similar insight. Things like this are invaluable if your GM does things like dream quests, fears, and your Wraith's Shadow. You might write down something that hints at something deeper.

A backstory also gives a GM a chance to know a bit more about you as a player, which helps the GM tailor the game to your personal likes and dislikes. Certain details in the backstory can clue the GM into how well you personally know relevant information that your character would know - or how much you are just bluffing.

Finally, a good backstory can be entertainment on its own. One of the players in my gaming group draws a lot, including various characters. It adds to the game to have drawings or stories, not only as an entertainment, but as a way to measure how interested people are in the game.



It's nice to have an idea of what your character has done, but more than one or two pages seems extreme. Why bother? That's no longer backstory but fanfic for your character. Perhaps I'd understand longer in a game where you're playing experienced characters, but 30+ seems rediculous.

It is extreme, and it is a bit ridiculous.

But it doesn't hurt.

I write because I enjoy it. I am good at it. I also get into my character, know a lot about my character, and can even get away with things because I have such a solid reasoning behind what I am doing. If all goes well, my character in one game will start with a holy avenger, even though the party will be no more than 4th-level.

Why?

A good story - and a good reason in that story. Said holy avenger would never be used by my character, except as a plot hook and for character development.



The game isn't just about you, and shoving that much information at the GM either means they'll feel pressured into spending more time following your leads, or have to try and wade through to find what they think are the most important to you. If that's not clear then he follows up the wrong ones and you feel as if you've missed out, and if it is then why have you written the other 28+ pages?

Nope.

Well, yes, the game isn't just about me or any one person, but you are wrong in that you assume that by writing 30+ pages that I believe I will be making the game just about me and my character (mind you, I'm just speaking for myself).

Those pages aren't a laundry list of things that have happened as a way to pressure the GM into making it my campaign. Most of it is expository, qualities for an actual story. It is not:

"Jahz got the black sword and killed the wizard, freeing his sister."

But more like:

"Jahz froze. There is was, a black tear in blackness, impossible to see and impossible to miss. He could feel its presence like a second heart. All he had to do was run across the ice and snatch it up. Easy. Yeah, easy. Sure."

Remmirath
2010-08-31, 04:46 PM
Depends on the level of the game, for me. This all goes for whether I'm DMing or playing.

A first level game, I don't really need much at all - just sort of a 'where you came from, what your life was like' very brief sort of thing. I expect characters to grow and change and become more fleshed out in the first few sessions, so I'm never picky about having a detailed backstory so long as it's got promise.

At the other end of the scale, if the characters are 50+ level and certainly if they have prestige classes or anything that needs special explanations, I need a lot more. Then I'd like at least a general outline of the sort of things they did to become that high level, what their motivations are, why they haven't encountered this plot before and why they're seeking it now (if entering into an already existing game), things like that. The part about not expecting them to be fully fleshed out right off the bat still stands. I can almost never do that, so it'd be hypocritical of me to expect it of others.

I honestly don't really care if it's written down, though. The main point of the backstory is in my mind to get you thinking about roleplaying your character, and I tend to think it actually has more impact if the character reveals some things slowly as people get to know them rather than if you know it all off the bat. If there is something that either I would like the DM to be able to act on or that if I am the DM the player in question wants me to act on, than it should certainly be written down.

If I get into something like a dream sequence or characters being taunted about specific events from their past, I might ask for more detailed backstories off the bat for that campaign. I don't usually do things like that, though (and the times I have, the players have been really good about working with me for it and coming up with suitable stuff on their own with some prompting).

One long-running game I'm in is a bit different - the characters (and there are a lot of characters and very few players) have their own organisation, and as it is in a D20 Modern framework they run things from Earth. They interview possible future party members before hiring them, so there's a list of questions that people answer in writing in character and are then read. It works pretty well for us, but I've no clue if it'd work for anyone else.
We also take turns DMing in the same ongoing world in that group, so often one of us will work in a plot-hook for a future campaign into the backstory of a new recruit.

Ihouji
2010-08-31, 04:48 PM
Honestly it depends on the writing skill of the player. I have had players write 15 page back stories that after finishing I wanted them to write more because it was so interesting.

On the other hand I have had players hand me 2-3 paragraphs that I wanted to bash my head off the wall after reading as it was completely full of spelling mistakes and poor wording choices as well as being cliché and boring. My favorite quote from it "I was the only one that not flee or dead." the author was 28... I still face palm every time I think about it.

Generally I find that no one length is best, just write until you have conveyed your character concept and if possible provided a few plot hooks.

Greyfeld
2010-08-31, 05:04 PM
"Jahz froze. There is was, a black tear in blackness, impossible to see and impossible to miss. He could feel its presence like a second heart. All he had to do was run across the ice and snatch it up. Easy. Yeah, easy. Sure."

See, this is the kind of "backstory writing" that I feel is the problem.

This type of writing is akin to writing a book. You want to elaborate on every facial expression, thought, and feeling that the character went through in each section of his history.

But that's completely and utterly unnecessary. You're writing a synopsis, not a screenplay.

elpollo
2010-08-31, 05:37 PM
Well I agree that 30+ seems ridiculous, my biggest was ~10 and it had full description of all my character's gear, included descriptions of how he met/knew 3 important NPCs in his backstory (including a 500 word story written for a college class), included who he was, why he was there, what he intended to do, etc. And even then it was an exception and for a 9th level character.

I've gotten used to making characters at minimum 5th level which means I feel obliged to say how they learned what they know. How did the human become an anima mage? Or how did the warrior become a master of the nine? I like trying to answer those in my back story.

I can certainly understand more experienced characters requiring a longer backstory, and for class based systems prestige classes seem like a good idea to explain. A full description of gear, though? Do you mean a list or more like "tent - 1 peg missing, rip near the back there Puggy the boar got carried away chasing a shadow"?


Characters who are dynamic, who grow over the course of the game, require more explanation than a single paragraph can provide.

I disagree. I don't think a detailed backstory is required to create a deep character - these things often develop in game, and if you've already got a very definite idea of how you want to progress you close off developement that might occur more naturally in game.


I can think of at least one other purpose - to set down some things that are true about the character that may be relevant to playing her. Some characters simply have complex pasts, or simple pasts from which details are important. There are some aspects of a backstory which may be very easy to explain in summary ("estranged noble scion") but which require a fair bit of expansion in order to be properly usable ("relationships with father, brother, and sister look like this, for these reasons"). It depends on the level of detail in the setting and campaign, and that employed by the other players as well.

Yes, if you look at cases where people essentially write short excerpts from their characters' pasts as stories, that's less "useful backstory" than "practicing the character's voice". But a lengthy description of how the character got to where she is today and what impact that journey had on her, even if 90% of it never translates in to plot hooks for the DM, can still exist without being fanfic or unrealistically epic.

I would argue that this (at least partially) falls under communicating aspects that you want to develop.


That's not the only thing a backstory can do; hence, whether it has one purpose is not is immaterial when it has several functions.

Writing a backstory lets you get into your character's head, as well as gives the GM an similar insight. Things like this are invaluable if your GM does things like dream quests, fears, and your Wraith's Shadow. You might write down something that hints at something deeper.

This is a pretty rare occurance, though, and if the GM wants this information it makes more sense for him to ask for it on that occurance instead of it being something regularly supplied.


I write because I enjoy it. I am good at it. I also get into my character, know a lot about my character, and can even get away with things because I have such a solid reasoning behind what I am doing. If all goes well, my character in one game will start with a holy avenger, even though the party will be no more than 4th-level.

Why?

A good story - and a good reason in that story. Said holy avenger would never be used by my character, except as a plot hook and for character development.

But this puts a much higher focus on you than everyone else. Oh, sure, you don't use it, but you have it, and that's just as bad, if not worse. You're lugging around a McGuffin, and because you're lugging it around, it will be used for some story arc that the others won't be a large part of solving because it needs that sword. People feeling less important in the game is a bad thing.


Well, yes, the game isn't just about me or any one person, but you are wrong in that you assume that by writing 30+ pages that I believe I will be making the game just about me and my character (mind you, I'm just speaking for myself).

I didn't say you thought writing 30+ pages would make you more important - I meant that the GM might feel pressured into following up more of your leads, and thus spending more game time, on the player who has spent significantly longer than others writing stuff for his character. I never meant to insinuate that you were actively trying to be the most important, and I'm sorry if that came across.


Those pages aren't a laundry list of things that have happened as a way to pressure the GM into making it my campaign. Most of it is expository, qualities for an actual story. It is not:

"Jahz got the black sword and killed the wizard, freeing his sister."

But more like:

"Jahz froze. There is was, a black tear in blackness, impossible to see and impossible to miss. He could feel its presence like a second heart. All he had to do was run across the ice and snatch it up. Easy. Yeah, easy. Sure."

And that's perhaps where you and I differ in opinion - in my mind that stops being backstory and starts being fiction. Perhaps that's not a big difference to most people - hell, perhaps it's not a difference - but to me it doesn't matter that you twirled across nineteen chandeliers whilst shooting fire bolts at passing air turtles to rescue the princess. What's important is that you rescued the princess. I just think that the cool stuff should be left for in game, where backstory should be things that give fuel for the cool stuff.

edit - ok, I really need to stop doing stuff whilst posting - I keep having people say stuff I'm saying before I say it. I watched District 9 during this one, if anyone's keeping score.

On the plus side, it seems that at least Greyfeld agrees with me on this point.

Umael
2010-08-31, 05:43 PM
See, this is the kind of "backstory writing" that I feel is the problem.

This type of writing is akin to writing a book. You want to elaborate on every facial expression, thought, and feeling that the character went through in each section of his history.

But that's completely and utterly unnecessary. You're writing a synopsis, not a screenplay.

Read a little earlier.

I'm giving the GM a summary. After he reads that, I'll give a synopsis. Then I give the story.

If you were my GM, I give you the summary. If you want more, I give the synopsis. If you want the rest, then I give the story.

I don't have to give the GM all of it, and the GM doesn't have to read all of it.

And just in case you ask - why would I go through all that work?

Simple - I like to write. It's my hobby.

(So, no. NOT completely and utterly unnecessary. Also, kinda insulting to say that, just so you know.)

Umael
2010-08-31, 05:53 PM
But this puts a much higher focus on you than everyone else.

No.

It can put a much higher focus on me than everyone else.

Why?

Because I did more for my backstory than they did.

It doesn't necessarily mean that it will - and I know the GM in question will give everyone equal screentime.



Oh, sure, you don't use it, but you have it, and that's just as bad, if not worse. You're lugging around a McGuffin, and because you're lugging it around, it will be used for some story arc that the others won't be a large part of solving because it needs that sword.

The major flaw in your logic is the last sentence.

Who said that this story arc would be for me and me alone?

Look, the backstory sets up a higher potential for my character than it does for the other characters. And if not all of it gets used, that's fine. The GM has plenty to go on, so he can concentrate on coming up with storylines for the other PCs.

Why do you keep assuming that the extra I put into my character translates into me being selfish?



I didn't say you thought writing 30+ pages would make you more important - I meant that the GM might feel pressured into following up more of your leads, and thus spending more game time, on the player who has spent significantly longer than others writing stuff for his character. I never meant to insinuate that you were actively trying to be the most important, and I'm sorry if that came across.

Try it this way.

I create 10 plot hooks for my character. Everyone creates at most three. If the GM involves the other characters in my extra plot hooks, my character might be central to the game... but that doesn't mean that everyone else will suffer.

And as I said earlier, the GM might just spend the energy to create more plot hooks for the others, since he doesn't have to spend the energy to create plot hooks for me.

(Your point is valid - any GM might feel pressured. But that's not the point of my backstory.)



And that's perhaps where you and I differ in opinion - in my mind that stops being backstory and starts being fiction. Perhaps that's not a big difference to most people - hell, perhaps it's not a difference - but to me it doesn't matter that you twirled across nineteen chandeliers whilst shooting fire bolts at passing air turtles to rescue the princess. What's important is that you rescued the princess. I just think that the cool stuff should be left for in game, where backstory should be things that give fuel for the cool stuff.

Then if you were the GM, you can safely stop at the synopsis and tell me, "Okay, that's enough. If I need to look up the details, I'll read your story."

And that's fine with me.

(Also, it's more depth for the psychology of my character, not more action. Not that you would know.)

balistafreak
2010-08-31, 06:55 PM
See, this is the kind of "backstory writing" that I feel is the problem.

This type of writing is akin to writing a book. You want to elaborate on every facial expression, thought, and feeling that the character went through in each section of his history.

But that's completely and utterly unnecessary. You're writing a synopsis, not a screenplay.

There's "character summary", and then there's "backstory".

Character summary is what your DM will use to fit the character into the world and campaign. Backstory is what he reads for his personal amusement.

Anything that will have mechanical impact MUST be written into the character summary. Not everything in the summary will need explanation in the backstory, though - for example, I fall on the "classes are almost always a metagame concept" side of the fence, so I feel no need to explain in backstory why a character is a X1/Y2/Z6, although for obvious reasons I will write about the same archetype of character in both. (I believe none of us will really take a mechanical Wizard reflavored as a pure melee fighter who hates magic seriously. :smalltongue:)

If something is written in backstory but not the character summary, it should ZERO mechanical impact. Most of what I tend to write in backstories are nothing but "fanfic", as someone quite eloquently put it. I don't expect you to read it, but if you think my character is compelling and amusing to read, and you think I write well, you can have a shot at it.

The biggest use of huge backstories is to prove to a DM you are invested in the character and dedicated to the game, especially if you've taken the time to weave the character and the campaign world together tightly. While this has its usefulness in live tabletop games, huge backstories are priceless in PbP applications, because the medium you'll be playing in is writing over the internet, not spoken words over tables. If written in a similar style to PbP posts, it also (hopefully) gives the DM a compelling example of why to include you in his or her game.

I would never be caught dead doing a narrative-style character summary, but I would see nothing wrong with a backstory the size of Lord of the Rings. :smallbiggrin:

Remember, the most important thing when you play a game is the present, not the past. A backstory should enable and reflect your present-tense playstyle, but not creep into the present-tense gameplay and campaign much at all.

Huge tangent and self-complimenting ahead, only vaguely related to the original subject:
I have several years experience with live, freeform RP over the internet. There are a huge amount of good writers, but terrible roleplayers out there; they constantly have a character reference what he has done and who he is personally, but completely miss the point of what is currently going on and bog down the game. These people are no fun at all.

For example, when a fire randomly started in an inn, Terrible Online Roleplayer threw down a huge paragraph about how his character had been burnt out of his own house before having him describe how his character actually acted, burning five minutes of painful idle time for the rest of us. I threw down a concise paragraph of realistic panicking and searching for a way out in about one minute; shorter posts and no rambling keep the pace going and the action interesting for all involved.

An hour of RP later (elongated in no small part to Terrible Online Roleplayer's ramblings), another character asked my own why he was so knowledgeable about escaping fires, as I had played him. I simply had him shrug, and say something along the lines of "I've been in more than few burning buildings in my line of work" - no more than a tired, smoke-exhausted, in-pain-from-burns person would say after escaping a burning building in reality. I didn't suddenly launch into his history as a flamethrower in the army - although such a backstory reference wouldn't be out of line (no one would take offense to that fact in particular), it just wouldn't make sense to talk about it then.

You can apply the same logic to your live table too. It's harder to tangent into backstory here, due to group pressure and their ability to give you nonverbal cues that you're taking it too far, but it's still possible. Please don't be Terrible Online Roleplayer at the live table, that's just terrible.

onthetown
2010-08-31, 07:14 PM
They can be as long as you want them to be, but you should have an abbreviated list for when you start and character-affecting points written down.

For instance, if you have a ten-page story and you're asked to briefly explain your character at the start of a campaign, you should be able to do it in less than a minute. The ten-pager can come out when the DM needs some roleplaying fodder.

Sometimes it's nice to just have a short, sweet backstory and let the campaign build on the rest of the character's experiences, though. I started a Ranger fresh out of what was basically Adventurer's College (more or less a big training school for all core classes), we said she graduated at age 17 and I didn't have a clue about her backstory except that she had a younger sister who was my Bard. I brought the two of them from being bland teenagers to incredibly experienced, totally fleshed out and unique adults over 20 in-game years (about 2 years OOC), level 1 to 20. They're still two of my favourite characters.

Edit: I should also mention that they got married and had kids in this time, and those kids are our current characters. Since the kids were around for most of the first campaign, that shaped the kids' backstories for this campaign. :smallamused:

oxybe
2010-08-31, 07:27 PM
enough to get an idea of the character's past and what he did until the campaign began. just the key parts, if possible no long multi-pages/bad-fanfic please.

Drakevarg
2010-08-31, 07:37 PM
I only ask my characters for a basic storyline, with the understanding that any info they don't give is an invitation for me to make it up for them.

On the other hand, if someone literally handed me a book explaining their character's past, I would happily read the whole thing and probably give them bonus XP for it.

Jallorn
2010-08-31, 08:04 PM
Long enough to tell who your character is and why. Longer is usually not worse, though a book might be a bit long.

Swordguy
2010-08-31, 08:06 PM
Backstories should be as long as they need to be. Sometimes that's a paragraph. Sometimes it's a small novel. Depends on the character, the player, the starting level of the game, and a host of other factors.

Heck, I've gotten to the point where I require backstories out of players and require them to read them out loud, with a straight face, to the other players. From the written backstory, I build their PC according to what they'd like to be good at and what's appropriate to both the background and game world. It doesn't just make background really matter (since something needs to be justified - well - in their background to be granted to the character). It also significantly discourages munchkinness...when forced to justify a game-breaking build via backstory and having to read it out loud to the other players, I've found that people are a LOT less willing to do stupid stuff (stacking half-racial templates, for example, will tend to get food thrown at a player who starts off with something stupid like "I'm a half-dragon, half-demon, half-devil, half-vampire, half-elf warforged"). No Drizz't clone has ever survived the required "reading your backstory to the other players" test. And the guy who tried Pun-pun got about three lines of backstory out before the other players shouted him down. :smallamused:

Secondarily, the fact that one person (me) is building all the characters also goes a long way toward guaranteeing a level of mechanical evenness between characters, insofar as the system will allow. The PCs still get the character they want (since THEY wrote the backstory), and I get a more-balanced game at a power level at which I want to play than I would if I just let them go off and mine the CharOp forums willy-nilly. The idea's gotten fairly popular around here; I'm starting a Shadowrun game on Wednesday where my players grouped up and proactively asked me to do this, and a few other GMs; the MechWarrior RPG guys especially -since the system explicitly says it doesn't try to stop munchkinism - do this.

Mr.Moron
2010-08-31, 08:12 PM
Every time I've written a backstory longer than

He is [Name] from [Place]. He likes [Things] and doesn't like [Other Things]. He is [Personality Trait] and [Personality Trait], he hopes to [Personal Goal] and never [Personal Fear].

It just ends up feeling out of sorts with how the character winds up playing. For the life of me I just can't get a fix on who a character really is until at least a session or two of playing them. If I have a huge complex backstory there is no way I'm going to be able to keep it all in mind and play the character in a manner consistent with it.

valadil
2010-08-31, 08:31 PM
I disagree. I don't think a detailed backstory is required to create a deep character - these things often develop in game, and if you've already got a very definite idea of how you want to progress you close off developement that might occur more naturally in game.


No but it helps. I don't expect to forecast the character's development in a backstory. I put out some decisions the character will have to resolve. How the game goes determines which decisions the character makes. A multifaceted character will have several such decisions. If I'm being brief and summing things up, a page is reasonable. A paragraph is not.

Regarding a longer backstory putting focus on one player, I'm fine with that. As a GM I encourage it. I tell my players that if they want to be in the spotlight, they should wow me with backstory. In terms of plots I play favorites. Write my favorite backstory and I'll gravitate toward your character.

Erom
2010-08-31, 09:22 PM
Every time I've written a backstory longer than

He is [Name] from [Place]. He likes [Things] and doesn't like [Other Things]. He is [Personality Trait] and [Personality Trait], he hopes to [Personal Goal] and never [Personal Fear].

It just ends up feeling out of sorts with how the character winds up playing. For the life of me I just can't get a fix on who a character really is until at least a session or two of playing them. If I have a huge complex backstory there is no way I'm going to be able to keep it all in mind and play the character in a manner consistent with it.

This is exactly why I am a big fan of the "Background/Personality/Major Goal/Minor Goal you have 4 sentences" approach. It allows the character to flow much more organically from game play. It allows player to suggest things to each other ("Wow, how did the low-CHA barbarian just convince that knight that we didn't burn down the inn? Maybe he's like, his cousin or something.")

Long backstorys usually just result in one player having a wank fest about his background, and inflexible characters that can't roll with the punches in a campaign.

Greyfeld
2010-08-31, 09:40 PM
Read a little earlier.

I'm giving the GM a summary. After he reads that, I'll give a synopsis. Then I give the story.

If you were my GM, I give you the summary. If you want more, I give the synopsis. If you want the rest, then I give the story.

I don't have to give the GM all of it, and the GM doesn't have to read all of it.

And just in case you ask - why would I go through all that work?

Simple - I like to write. It's my hobby.

(So, no. NOT completely and utterly unnecessary. Also, kinda insulting to say that, just so you know.)

If you like to write, that's great. Good writers are a rarity, and the world could use more of them.

However, I stick by my statement of "unnecessary." Writing 10 pages of character history for a D&D campaign is, yes, unnecessary. The important information can be given in a few paragraphs, easily.

If you choose to go and write up a short novel on your character's history just for your own pleasure (or even because your DM asked you to), then by all means, knock yourself out. But please don't confuse "necessary" with "what I enjoy doing in my spare time."

Tyndmyr
2010-09-01, 07:28 AM
Honestly it depends on the writing skill of the player. I have had players write 15 page back stories that after finishing I wanted them to write more because it was so interesting.

On the other hand I have had players hand me 2-3 paragraphs that I wanted to bash my head off the wall after reading as it was completely full of spelling mistakes and poor wording choices as well as being cliché and boring. My favorite quote from it "I was the only one that not flee or dead." the author was 28... I still face palm every time I think about it.

Generally I find that no one length is best, just write until you have conveyed your character concept and if possible provided a few plot hooks.

Yes. Most people are terrible, terrible writers. It's unfortunate, but requiring minimums results in people doing just enough to meet the minimum standards. People who don't enjoy it won't do a good job of it. People who really want to write a backstory will regardless(though they are comparatively rare). Most of those will still suck terribly.

Knock yourself out if that's what you're into, but if it's 15 pages of utter junk, Im not gonna bother to read it. If you're into roleplaying, I should be easily able to pick up information about your character in game anyhow.

elpollo
2010-09-01, 08:09 AM
No.

It can put a much higher focus on me than everyone else.

Why?

Because I did more for my backstory than they did.

It doesn't necessarily mean that it will - and I know the GM in question will give everyone equal screentime.

Ok, so in your case it might not be the case (or perhaps it just doesn't seem to be the case), but if a character is carrying a powerful item and that becomes a key part of the story then it is very easy to have that player become The Bearer whilst everyone else becomes The Escorts. Other players can still resolve their story arcs, but it feels a bit like "Thanks for letting me stop to reunite me brother with his teenage sweetheart who was turned against him, now I suppose we can go on to slay the Demon Lord from the Seventh Layer of Hell". Not every player wants to play a character who is off to some epic quest from the start - indeed, I find it much more interesting to play a regular person who is thrust into such events. People shouldn't be penalised for not having an entire world being made up of people who have to save it.



The major flaw in your logic is the last sentence.

Who said that this story arc would be for me and me alone?

Nobody, least of all me. I'm not saying the others won't be involved, I'm saying they'll be bit parts.


Look, the backstory sets up a higher potential for my character than it does for the other characters. And if not all of it gets used, that's fine. The GM has plenty to go on, so he can concentrate on coming up with storylines for the other PCs.

But there's a huge difference between the potential for a GM to introduce a plot hook and the plot hook being on your back all day. It's the Chekhov's Gun of plot hooks.


Why do you keep assuming that the extra I put into my character translates into me being selfish?

Why do you keep assuming I'm calling you selfish?


Try it this way.

I create 10 plot hooks for my character. Everyone creates at most three. If the GM involves the other characters in my extra plot hooks, my character might be central to the game... but that doesn't mean that everyone else will suffer.

It doesn't mean the characters will suffer, but there's a chance the players will. If you have 10 plot hooks and the others have 3 and all of them are done then you've been the main character for the majority of the game. Even if you've not used all 10, having multiple "I've got to save the world from X, Y and Z using A" (or even one) quests means that you're Frodo whilst the others are Merry and Pippin (or possibly Sam, if they're lucky). They're present (ok, the Merry and Pippin metaphor already starts falling apart here), but they aren't there to resolve your plot hook. It's generally assumed that you will be resolving your own hooks, as you've made them, and so whilst the others can help you battle the demon lord and his minions, it's still you with the glowing sword that is the only weapon that can harm him. The others are just supporting cast.


And as I said earlier, the GM might just spend the energy to create more plot hooks for the others, since he doesn't have to spend the energy to create plot hooks for me.

The GM might, but they might not. They might create plots that involve the whole party equally so everyone feels like they've contributed equally. Sure, there will be moments where one character shines, but there'll be moments like this for all characters.


(Your point is valid - any GM might feel pressured. But that's not the point of my backstory.)

And I really don't mean to say it is - I'm just saying it's a possible effect. You say this doesn't happen in your game and that's great, but I'm commenting on long backstories as a whole.


Then if you were the GM, you can safely stop at the synopsis and tell me, "Okay, that's enough. If I need to look up the details, I'll read your story."

And that's fine with me.

But most people won't say that. If a friend has taken the time to write that much and then present it to you, you're probably going to read it.


(Also, it's more depth for the psychology of my character, not more action. Not that you would know.)

You're right, of course. I've got no idea how you as an individual write your backstory, so a lot of my complaints might not apply to you.


If you choose to go and write up a short novel on your character's history just for your own pleasure (or even because your DM asked you to), then by all means, knock yourself out. But please don't confuse "necessary" with "what I enjoy doing in my spare time."

This is kinda representative of my view point. What's handed to the GM should be relevant information. All the fiction and stuff should be "Oh, and if anyone's interested I've got some writing I've done about such-and-such". If you physically hand someone something it's a lot different to mentioning its existance - people can't really say "No", because it looks like they don't care about you or don't like your writing or whatever.

edit - which is apparantly what you do, so I apologise, I've missed that point.

Umael
2010-09-01, 11:33 AM
However, I stick by my statement of "unnecessary." Writing 10 pages of character history for a D&D campaign is, yes, unnecessary. The important information can be given in a few paragraphs, easily.

Pardon my nitpicking, but there is a fine but important distinction between saying something is "unnecessary" and saying that it is "unnecessary for a (D&D)* campaign".

(* - you said D&D, but I'm betting you could easily substitute any RPG)

This might seem like a minor thing to you, but that is why I bristled a little.

If I (or anyone else) wants to write a lengthy backstory because that's important to us, calling it "unnecessary" is insulting. When you put in the qualifier that you are referring only to the RPG campaign, then you are on firmer ground.

However, just because it is unnecessary does not mean it cannot be helpful, which is another important part of what I am saying.



If you choose to go and write up a short novel on your character's history just for your own pleasure (or even because your DM asked you to), then by all means, knock yourself out. But please don't confuse "necessary" with "what I enjoy doing in my spare time."

Just as long as you don't confuse "unnecessary" with "unhelpful".



Ok, so in your case it might not be the case (or perhaps it just doesn't seem to be the case), but if a character is carrying a powerful item and that becomes a key part of the story then it is very easy to have that player become The Bearer whilst everyone else becomes The Escorts.

True enough.

Although a few things to consider - the example I gave was for a low-level character to have a holy avenger. Powerful, yes. But not game-breaking, not an artifact.

It is also contingency on the GM giving the okay -and that part is critical.

After I spin my yarn, it has to be good enough, as a bonus to the game AND as a story, to convince the GM that allowing my character this item will improve the game for everyone.

If I write a 30+ page story, and I don't sell my GM on this concept - I'm out of luck.

Since a lot of what you were saying is more general than targetting me, let me rephrase as if *I* was the GM and you were submitting a 30+ page backstory.



Other players can still resolve their story arcs, but it feels a bit like "Thanks for letting me stop to reunite me brother with his teenage sweetheart who was turned against him, now I suppose we can go on to slay the Demon Lord from the Seventh Layer of Hell". Not every player wants to play a character who is off to some epic quest from the start - indeed, I find it much more interesting to play a regular person who is thrust into such events. People shouldn't be penalised for not having an entire world being made up of people who have to save it.

As GM, if you were submitting a 30+ page backstory that included a powerful magical item, I would weigh the benefit of having that item in the game and its cost on the other player's enjoyment of the game. If I felt that the story would be unbalanced in your favor, I would deny it.

If your story did not involve world-shattering events, I would feel more comfortable including it into the canon game history - where the smaller it is, the more likely I can fit it into my game world.

I should add that as a GM, I will be looking at your story from the eye of someone who is looking for plot hooks and holes and making sure everything will fit. However, I will also be looking at your story from the viewpoint of a writer - and if you submit a 30+ page backstory full of spelling mistakes, poor grammar, punctuation errors, and convoluted logic bombs, your story's toast.



Nobody, least of all me. I'm not saying the others won't be involved, I'm saying they'll be bit parts.

I will not deny that there is a concern that this CAN happen. However, I will deny that this WILL happen each time.



Why do you keep assuming I'm calling you selfish?

You accused me (indirectly) of having introducing a dominating character, who by weigh of McGuffin and length of backstory, becomes the most important character of the game.

You might not be aware of how easy it is to imply that, even without meaning, but look at what you said.
I'm not saying the others won't be involved, I'm saying they'll be bit parts.

That quote is a clear example of how you are implying this kind of behavior is selfish. "You get the spotlight, everyone else plays bit parts."

((For the record, I am not upset as I write this. It's more a matter of "hey, no, not me, okay?"))



It doesn't mean the characters will suffer, but there's a chance the players will. If you have 10 plot hooks and the others have 3... *snip*

A chance, yes, but you are also assuming that all plot hooks are just as important as others.

Let's say I created 10 plot hooks for my character, you created only 3. My plot hooks involve finding the man who murdered my father, visiting a particular exotic locale, reconcile with an old lover, get revenge on the thief who stole something of sentimental value to me, etc. Your 3 plot hooks involve defeating BBEG #1 with some powerful artifact (the only way to permanently slay BBBEG #1), winning the hand of the daughter of BBEG #2, and to become the Hero Reborn, the reincarnation of a legend.

A small, personal plot hook can be easily resolved, while the larger story-arc plot hooks will probably take longer.

Hence, I cannot deny that your concern over this possibility is real, I will deny that it is a foregone conclusion.



And I really don't mean to say it is - I'm just saying it's a possible effect. You say this doesn't happen in your game and that's great, but I'm commenting on long backstories as a whole.

I think this is the big issue.

Saying that it CAN does not mean that it necessarily WILL.

Ormur
2010-09-03, 02:56 AM
The verbal equivalent of a paragraph to perhaps explain how the character got here, provide a plot hook and a skeleton to fill in with once the game evolves and the DM gives you more information.

In my experience neither the characters nor the setting are fully developed in the first session and a long backstory kind of requires both of those things. If they are available from the start because of a long prep time I can understand it but it's not like that in the games I've played in.

With a less thorough backstory it's easier to say that you character should be able to relate to some setting history the DM provides you with in the middle of the campaign. "He's a solider so he could have fought in that war" or something like that.

prufock
2010-09-03, 07:09 AM
It depends on the planned length and depth of the campaign.

One-shot adventures require none, though I usually do some character notes on personality traits, philosophy, etc in the margin of my page, just as reference for myself. Hooks aren't really important here because there isn't time enough to develop them and the adventure is generally published or prepared in full by the GM.

2-5 session campaigns I write a page or two, half character notes, half backstory. Hooks may never come into play, but having one or two possibilities may help the DM.

Anything beyond that, I just start writing and stop when I feel it's complete. It can end up being anywhere from 2-10 pages.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-03, 08:57 AM
Pardon my nitpicking, but there is a fine but important distinction between saying something is "unnecessary" and saying that it is "unnecessary for a (D&D)* campaign".

(* - you said D&D, but I'm betting you could easily substitute any RPG)

This might seem like a minor thing to you, but that is why I bristled a little.

If I (or anyone else) wants to write a lengthy backstory because that's important to us, calling it "unnecessary" is insulting. When you put in the qualifier that you are referring only to the RPG campaign, then you are on firmer ground.

No, he's using unnecessary correctly, and not in a way thats inherently insulting. Plenty of people don't use backstories and do alright, so clearly, a lengthy backstory is not necessary.

If you enjoy writing, rock out and write whatever you want. Enjoying it doesn't make it necessary, though.

bokodasu
2010-09-03, 09:01 AM
You are all making me jealous; right now I'm playing with a group that doesn't even name their characters. :smallfrown:

When I DM, I ask for three paragraphs: early history, recent history, and goals (which should include at least two of the three: immediate, mid-term, and long-term). There should be at least one plot-hooky NPC in there somewhere. More is good, but lots more is discouraged. I mean, sure, have your own ideas and bring them out through gameplay, but I don't need to know every little thing that's ever happened to you.

I like compact writing; I'm sure it's possible, but I've never played with anyone who wrote a 10-page backstory that couldn't have been a better 2-page backstory.

mikej
2010-09-03, 09:11 AM
A few pages worth of backstory, motivations, and personality. My only big issue is that I write it out for far to long. Need to learn to make it shorter so I can print a few pages to attach to my character sheet and not a whole novel.

valadil
2010-09-03, 09:29 AM
No, he's using unnecessary correctly, and not in a way thats inherently insulting. Plenty of people don't use backstories and do alright, so clearly, a lengthy backstory is not necessary.


I think necessary needs to be qualified or we're headed for a lot more nitpicking.

For me, a backstory is necessary for good roleplaying. I can't go up there with a blank slate and play a character well. I find it to be necessary internally. I don't assume that it would benefit other people in the same way (although I do think other people should try it just to see what happens). But I've seen enough talented roleplayers get by without any semblance of a story that I know it's not necessary for everyone.

Greyfeld
2010-09-03, 09:51 AM
I think necessary needs to be qualified or we're headed for a lot more nitpicking.

For me, a backstory is necessary for good roleplaying. I can't go up there with a blank slate and play a character well. I find it to be necessary internally. I don't assume that it would benefit other people in the same way (although I do think other people should try it just to see what happens). But I've seen enough talented roleplayers get by without any semblance of a story that I know it's not necessary for everyone.

If you can't figure out what the term "necessary" means in this context, then you're already nitpicking. Just because it doesn't fall in line with what you, as a player or writer, enjoy doing doesn't make it insulting or incorrect.

Fact of the matter is, when the DM asks for a character backstory, all they really need is a few paragraphs giving the important information. "My character was born here, raised by X, Y and Z. These are the important bullet points of his life and how they are relevant to this campaign's setting, and this is what he is currently doing now."

Again, if you choose to write more for your own benefit, that's fine. But it's not necessary to write it as part of the backstory you feed to your DM for the sake of starting the campaign.

Gorgon_Heap
2010-09-03, 10:33 AM
I hate to add tinder to the samantic bonfire, but objectively speaking I must concur with Greyfeld.

As a player I tend to write 1-2 pages for any character, which includes history, personality, motivations, hooks, and NPCs. This is, I think more than is strictly necessary, but I enjoy doing it and I think eases the burden on GMs.

As a GM, I have never gotten more than a few spoken lines about a character's bio. That has been ebough for me to understand the PC and what it will take for me to involve him or her in the campaign and ground him/her in the world. Would a multi page background written out for me be enjoyed and helpful? Very likely to absolutely. Is it strictly needed? Certainly not.

What I am finding more and more is PCs without any story at all are becoming impossible to maintain. I simply cannot involve them when I don't know why they're in the picture to begin with nor why the're sticking around. It's causing havok in a current campaign and I'll not tolerate it again.

I have seen a number of ideas in this thread that I find quite good, though, and I thank y'all for sharing.

Umael
2010-09-03, 10:53 AM
No, he's using unnecessary correctly, and not in a way thats inherently insulting. Plenty of people don't use backstories and do alright, so clearly, a lengthy backstory is not necessary.

If you enjoy writing, rock out and write whatever you want. Enjoying it doesn't make it necessary, though.

Okay, what about "A backstory needs to be as long as it needs to be"?

That makes the length of a backstory subjective, and hence, as necessary as it needs to be.

(Note: No backstory = backstory with length 0.)

The Big Dice
2010-09-03, 11:01 AM
You are all making me jealous; right now I'm playing with a group that doesn't even name their characters. :smallfrown:
There's a player in my group that doesn't even finish his characters until he's been playing for at least two weeks. Longer if it's a GURPS game.

And then they're still pretty boring and vanilla.

bokodasu
2010-09-03, 12:40 PM
There's a player in my group that doesn't even finish his characters until he's been playing for at least two weeks. Longer if it's a GURPS game.

Well, yeah, if it's GURPS, he's probably been putting in 40-hour weeks just to get it done that fast.

Dirty n Evil
2010-09-07, 04:31 AM
I have to admit... sometimes I end up having more fun with the backstories than actually running my characters. :smalleek: But then it's simply because the DM didn't really pay attention to what I wrote before starting the campaign, and after the first two adventures it's clear they're not suited to the theme of the story. (As a surprise he had our group half-way through the first adventure travel to the Ravenloft campaign setting. We I was running a very bookish thief who's every instinct was contrary to the storytelling of the horror genre.)

I think that's an important element to keep in mind - that the backstory permits the elements for the DM to run the game as they see fit without conflict. An example of this problem is a friend I have who has a great character idea for a human ranger named Maeve. Maeve sounds like a great character, and I've wanted to come up with a good setting to include her... except my friend also wrote into Maeve's backstory that she's looking out for a small ecampment of good people driven out of their homes by the evil noble. (Very Robin Hood.) My problem is that he's written it into this character that she needs to address the issues of this evil noble and ensure the safety of this group of people before she ever leaves her current situation and starts adventuring elsewhere. As a DM, I prefer not to have my players decide for me where the adventure begins by the backstory of one character.

Another element I've found other DM's enjoy is when I put the "I really don't know myself" aspect of a character's backstory in there. For example, I created a Sorcerer who was born with a birthmark on the back of his neck that looked like a magical sigil - and he was told by the half senile sage that lived near his town that it was a sign he was cursed, with ill fortune to befall any who become close to him. And indeed, in his history he's had some lady friends with some unfortunate accidents. But I leave it up to the DM... is my character really cursed? Or was the old sage just a loon, and the sigil means something entirely different? Because I plan to run the character as though this is a problem he's dealt with all his life, I don't feel pressure for the DM to address in the first adventure (if he does at all). And half of the fun is when he does address it, finding out for myself what the "truth" of the matter is. :smallbiggrin:

Halaster
2010-09-07, 05:22 AM
Well, it depends. As a GM, I've never had anyone hand in written background stories, because most players I know develop their characters very much during playing the first few sessions. I usually ask a few questions about the character up ahead (where is he from, how did he become <class>, why does he worship <god>, any fictional character you based him on, stuff like that) and am done with it. The rest usually comes out in play.

As for me as a player, I like elaborate backstories, but as far as I recall, have only ever handed in a fully fleshed out once, that had about 6 pages (German, so a little less in English, I guess). Otherwise I've handed in short texts (often just bullet points), of 1-2 pages, and once gave my GM a formal CV for a modern character.
I never go to a game without a good idea of my character's background, though, even if it's all in my head. It helps me play him (or her) well. I know that other players don't need that, or are even hindered by it, so I never ask that as a GM.