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Person_Man
2010-08-31, 03:06 PM
Working on a Binder/Tenebrous Apostate build for a friend, and apparently there's some rules confusion over the Apostate's class abilities:

1) Tenebrous Rebuke: Strait forward. Your Turn/Rebuke ability (which you can use once every 5 rounds) deals or heals extra damage against all undead within 30 ft. Notably includes the sentence, "You can still use these turn attempts in conjunction with divine feats, as normal"

2) Destroy/Empower Undead: At 3rd level the Tenebrous Apostate can "use two turn or rebuke dead attempts as a single standard action, each dealing (or healing) damage as per the Tenebrous Rebuke ability (see above), except that the damage only applies to mindless undead." So, can a Tenebrous Apostate use this ability to fuel divine feats that require 2 Turn/Rebuke Undead uses, like Travel Devotion? Or does it simply deal extra damage against mindless undead? If the latter is true, why didn't they just say "Your Tenebrous Rebuke ability deals double damage against mindless undead" instead of the convoluted "two turn attepts as a single standard action" language?

3) Umbral Body: Unclear as to how often you can use this ability. The first sentance states "once per day" whereas the last sentence states that "Once you return to physical form, you cannot use this ability again for 5 rounds." Implying that it can be used once every 5 rounds like most other Binder abilities. Which is it?

If the answer to 2 and 3 are Yes and once every 5 rounds, then Tenebrous Apostate is a worthwhile and awesome PrC. If the answers are No and once per day, then it's garbage.

I'm at work and so blocked from reading the errata right now (if there is one) and have frankly always sucked at pure RAW arguments. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Quirp
2010-08-31, 03:12 PM
to 3) As I read it you can use that power for twice your class level rounds per day, but if you donīt use all those rounds at once you have to wait for five rounds until you can reactivate the ability

edit: errata says nothing about these things

I have read the texts again and would say that you can use the second ability to fuel travel devotion every five rounds

Maerok
2010-08-31, 03:16 PM
Most of the errata for ToM located here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) is fluff-based, :smallconfused:, where the description to Savnok/Leraje had errors.

For (2), I'd imagine that the Turn Undead uses intended are coming from the divine casting class that gets advanced by the PrC but isn't required to enter it. I would think binder and cleric turn attempts could be combined for multi-attempt uses as well.

Quirp
2010-08-31, 03:24 PM
I have looked domain feats up again and have to say that sadly by raw they donīt have the [divine] tag so you canīt fuel them with the abilities from Tenebrous Apostate.:smallmad:

Person_Man
2010-08-31, 03:33 PM
For (2), I'd imagine that the Turn Undead uses intended are coming from the divine casting class that gets advanced by the PrC but isn't required to enter it. I would think binder and cleric turn attempts could be combined for multi-attempt uses as well.

True.

But binding Tenebrous (a pre-req for the PrC) requires Binder 5 with the Improved Binder feat (or Binder 7 without it). The "natural" build would then be Cleric 1/Binder 5/Tenebrous Apostate 5. Since your Cleric casting is going to be 6 levels slow at that point and there is no other PrC that progresses divine casting and Binder, taking the Cleric level is pretty much pointless.


I have looked domain feats up again and have to say that sadly by raw they donīt have the [divine] tag so you canīt fuel them with the abilities from Tenebrous Apostate.:smallmad:

:frown:

Well then, the PrC seems pretty much useless. It's a shame. Because Travel Devotion + Flicker + Etherel Body + vestiges would be awesome.

Quirp
2010-08-31, 03:41 PM
Yes, itīs pretty useless. If you can use the adaptation for anima mage for divine casters you get a much better PrC to advance binding and casting. The only time I considered using it was, when I was building a binder/sorcerer/ur-priest. That at least gets 6th level arcane and divine spells and 8th level vestiges.

Maerok
2010-08-31, 07:25 PM
If you're up for homebrew:

Make a Tenebrous Rising vestige (sunrise, onset of divinity) and the original Tenebrous into Tenebrous Falling (sunset, darkness, Orcus bails). Each possesses the special requirement that only an Apostate can bind them both at the same time. The Rising vestige could possibly grant some domains and domain abilities from Darkness, Death, Repose, etc. at effective binder level to cleric/binders.

The Rising vestige occurs at a lower level and doesn't give out quite the same goodies (Turn/Rebuke would still be useful) but still qualifies. Replace one of the so-so class abilities for one that provides a synergy between the two vestiges when bound together.

Otherwise:

Still probably more effective than Truenamer. :smallbiggrin: