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View Full Version : [4e] New bard at-wills (PEACH)



DSCrankshaw
2010-08-31, 03:57 PM
I'm thinking of homebrewing some additional ranged weapon bard at-wills. Here's some ideas I had:

Graceful Opening Bard Attack 1
Your arrow whistles through the air, its music distracting your enemy as it soothes your ally.
At-will * Weapon, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: Charisma modifier psychic damage. One ally you can see can choose to make a saving throw or to make a basic attack against the target as a free action.

I originally wanted to make it a saving throw and a basic attack, but that seemed like too much for an at-will. When I decided to do it this way, I made it psychic, as Cha damage plus a save seems underpowered. I'm willing to be convinced to try it another way.


Rallying shot Bard Attack 1
Your arrow carries notes of courage to a nearby ally.
At-will * Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Charisma modifier damage. One ally within 2 squares of you or your target gains temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + 1/2 your level.

Fairly standard + temp hp attack, along the same lines as Sacred Flames or Energizing Strike.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-31, 04:20 PM
Graceful Opening should heal hit points equal to your CHA modifier, not grant a saving throw.

DSCrankshaw
2010-08-31, 05:18 PM
Graceful Opening should heal hit points equal to your CHA modifier, not grant a saving throw.

Could you share your reasoning?

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-08-31, 08:44 PM
Could you share your reasoning?

To powerful.

Krazddndfreek
2010-08-31, 08:47 PM
Yeah, at-wills shouldn't allow a saving throw, especially if you can just use it on anyone. An encounter power can do that, but being able to do that at-will is a little too powerful, especially for first level.

A.J.Gibson
2010-08-31, 08:48 PM
The second power I think is a little too good - but just a little. Compared to Energizing Strike, it grants a lot more temp hp, with the limitation being that the ally must be closer (2 squares instead of 5).

Nu
2010-08-31, 09:04 PM
Yeah, at-wills shouldn't allow a saving throw, especially if you can just use it on anyone. An encounter power can do that, but being able to do that at-will is a little too powerful, especially for first level.

There are at-wills that grant saving throws. The cleric's Sacred Flame (PHB) does so (also allowing Temporary HP to be granted instead), and the shaman's Spirit of the Tempest (PrP) grants a saving throw even on a miss.

However, perhaps there should be a range limitation rather than just "one ally you can see." Maybe "one ally within 5 squares" or "one ally within 2 squares of either you or the target."

DSCrankshaw
2010-08-31, 09:22 PM
There are at-wills that grant saving throws. The cleric's Sacred Flame (PHB) does so (also allowing Temporary HP to be granted instead), and the shaman's Spirit of the Tempest (PrP) grants a saving throw even on a miss.

However, perhaps there should be a range limitation rather than just "one ally you can see." Maybe "one ally within 5 squares" or "one ally within 2 squares of either you or the target."

Don't forget Focusing Strike (ardent level 1 at-will). And you'll note that Sacred flame does more damage (and it's radiant), as does Spirit of the Tempest (which is thunder), as does Focusing Strike (which allows you to use the saving throw yourself).

I actually think, as written, it may be a little underpowered (I was considering making it attack reflex). The range of the effect is the same as sacred flame, but it's easy enough to change if we decide it's too large.



The second power I think is a little too good - but just a little. Compared to Energizing Strike, it grants a lot more temp hp, with the limitation being that the ally must be closer (2 squares instead of 5).

Actually, the temp hp is exactly the same as Energizing Strike, which is "temporary hit points equal to one-half your level + your Charisma modifier." That's also the temp hp that Sacred flame grants as an option (though in Sacred Flame's case, Charisma is a secondary).

A.J.Gibson
2010-08-31, 09:26 PM
Actually, the temp hp is exactly the same as Energizing Strike, which is "temporary hit points equal to one-half your level + your Charisma modifier." That's also the temp hp that Sacred flame grants as an option (though in Sacred Flame's case, Charisma is a secondary).

I really should have checked before I posted. Yep. It is a bit underpowered then. Rather than simply duplicating Energizing Strike, though, I'd rather see a power that is unique.

DSCrankshaw
2010-08-31, 09:30 PM
I did try to keep these powers roughly equivalent to what's currently out there.

Rallying Shot is more my "bards ought to be able to do what others can do" power than anything unique. I probably wouldn't take it myself.

For Graceful Opening, I wanted an at-will that grants saving throws because bards are pretty weak on saving throw granting, and I wanted an at-will that grants basic attacks because there are darn few leader powers that aren't limited to melee basic attacks (Direct the Strike and Claws of the Eagle being the only ones I can think of). I tried combining them, since it was a combination I hadn't seen before, unlike if I combined the save and the temp hp, which sacred flame does. The problem is that I had to limit the damage on the attack granting power, and small damage + a save is weaker than equivalent powers. However, I think it works out well thematically. The idea is that it grants you an attack, either directly or by allowing you to shake off a debilitating condition before your turn.

The original idea, which I figured was overpowered, was to grant a save and an attack. Thematically, you shake off the nasty condition and strike back. But, that's more an encounter power.

Nu
2010-08-31, 09:40 PM
Don't forget Focusing Strike (ardent level 1 at-will). And you'll note that Sacred flame does more damage (and it's radiant), as does Spirit of the Tempest (which is thunder), as does Focusing Strike (which allows you to use the saving throw yourself).

I actually think, as written, it may be a little underpowered (I was considering making it attack reflex). The range of the effect is the same as sacred flame, but it's easy enough to change if we decide it's too large.

You should also note, however, that Spirit of the Tempest, Focusing Strike, and even Sacred Flame have sharply limited range compared to Graceful Opening. Spirit of the Tempest and Focusing Strike are melee (Focused Strike can extend to 2 squares with reach weapon), and Sacred Flame is Ranged 5, which is going to be a lot shorter than most ranged weapons a bard would use.

Therefore, I think limiting the range on Graceful Opening's ally boon might be fair, especially given the option to grant an ally a basic attack. In fact, it may be a bit over the line to have the option of either a basic attack or a saving throw on a single power, but since it's unique and interesting I don't think I'd recommend changing it in any significant manner. I certainly don't think it's underpowered, at any rate.

My only concern is that the lack of "saving throw" granting in the bard's power list may be intentional. Not all leaders are to be able to grant the same things with the same ease, after all.

DSCrankshaw
2010-08-31, 09:55 PM
You should also note, however, that Spirit of the Tempest, Focusing Strike, and even Sacred Flame have sharply limited range compared to Graceful Opening. Spirit of the Tempest and Focusing Strike are melee (Focused Strike can extend to 2 squares with reach weapon), and Sacred Flame is Ranged 5, which is going to be a lot shorter than most ranged weapons a bard would use.

Therefore, I think limiting the range on Graceful Opening's ally boon might be fair, especially given the option to grant an ally a basic attack. In fact, it may be a bit over the line to have the option of either a basic attack or a saving throw on a single power, but since it's unique and interesting I don't think I'd recommend changing it in any significant manner. I certainly don't think it's underpowered, at any rate.

My only concern is that the lack of "saving throw" granting in the bard's power list may be intentional. Not all leaders are to be able to grant the same things with the same ease, after all.
That's a fair point. I think if I limit the range, I'd prefer it to be one ally within 2 squares of either you or your target.

Yakk
2010-09-01, 10:04 AM
Have it grant a basic attack. If the attack hits, the ally gets a saving throw.

This is a 70% chance to grant a basic attack, then a 60% chance to get a saving throw from it (based off a baseline 60% hit chance)

At this point, the power is actually under-strength, practically.

How about some combined fire fun:
Hit: One ally makes a basic attack on the target as a free action. If the ally hits, the ally may make a saving throw, and you deal [W] psychic damage damage with this attack. If the ally misses, you deal your charisma modifier, plus your weapon enhancement bonus, psychic damage with this attack.

Call it Harmonious Coordination?

Hmm. That is possibly getting too complex, but I sort of like the give and take. And by making the damage a roll we boost damage massively at higher levels: by making it a [W], we don't over-value superior crossbows over other ranged weapons!


Rallying Shot is too generic and boring... Lets have fun with it!

The ally targeted should be between you and the target, along the line of fire. That gives it some positional fun, and weakens it a bit, and makes it more unique.

Next, slide the ally 1 square -- bards "Schick" is moving allies around.

Crossfiyah
2010-09-01, 11:26 AM
Ok, so SURGELESS healing is definitely way more powerful than a saving throw, I don't know what the original responder was thinking. The only other surgeless healing power does like no damage whatsoever it's that useful, and it was single-handidly responsible for a slew of errata to healing items.