PDA

View Full Version : Avatar: TLA System



Samurai Jill
2010-08-31, 05:12 PM
I was inspired by this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165944) to give some thought to the general question of a dedicated system for RP in the world of Avatar:TLA. I don't have anything really organised together yet, but I thought I could just give a rundown of various points I reckoned were important, and/or nascent mechanics associated with them. I'd probably inclined toward something based on Mouse Guard, in terms of conflict resolution and chargen procedures.


* Emotional metrics. Each Bending discipline seems to be associated with specific emotions or attitudes- Rage for Fire, Stubbornness for Earth, Empathy for Water, and Freedom for Air. However-
* There might be secondary passions for each element (e.g, Zest for Fire, Passiveness for Earth, Sorrow for Water and Fear (?) for air,) to represent the 'flip side' of each attitude (maybe tied into positive/negative chi?)
* These primal emotions benefit and empower basic techniques (based on the positive or negative chi used for offence and defence,) but the most powerful techniques rely on neutral chi, which requires a capacity for emotional detachment or 'balance'. In other words, the passions that aid Bending at first can actually inhibit it later.

"Fire is the element of power. The people of the Fire Nation have desire and will, and the energy and drive to achieve what they want. Earth is the element of substance. The people of the Earth Kingdom are diverse and strong. They are persistent and enduring. Air is the element of freedom. The Air Nomads detached themselves from worldly concerns, and found peace... ...The people of the Water Tribe are capable of adapting to many things. They have a deep sense of community and love that holds them together through anything."
-General Ihro

"Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source. True humility is the only antidote for shame."
-General Ihro

The point I'm making here is that mastering Bending has built-in support for character development. If your character is going to build up anger or stubborness or yearning for freedom, the player has to role-play situations that exhibit the quality. If the PCs are going to develop emotional discipline, they have to develop that discipline through scenes in which they overcome or master those passions.

* Combat Interactions I already mentioned positive/negative chi as the basis of offence/defence, but are things modelled on a finer level here? Are there emphatics blocks, strikes, evasions, parries, etc?

* Science. This is technically a steampunk setting- the Fire Nation makes huge use of industrial production, Sokka has turned it to his advantage on occasion, and Legend of Korra seems to be taking this idea much further.

* Techniques. Every form of bending has a set of associated techniques. I guess the simplest thing to do here would be to have them modify offensive/defensive values during various combat maneuvers, treating them as something like 'feats' rather than skills.

* Martial Synergies. Different forms of Bending are based on real-life martial arts, and it would be interesting to provide some mechanical support for combining weapon-based or hand-to-hand combat techniques with different styles of Bending.

* Tuition and Masters. Bending techniques can usually only be learned from an experienced teacher. (You can theoretically try to invent your own or learn in isolation, but it's far more difficult.) This also raises the opportunity for introducing teacher-figures into the story that naturally carry their own emotional baggage, and hence present further opportunities for drama/character-development.

* Secondary Skills. All I really have to say here is that (A) you probably don't need a whole pile of them, because most of the show is focused on either combat or relationships-related dialogue, and (B) it would be nice to be able to base them off a similar system to Bending: a few core metrics, modified by 'Techniques' (e.g, Seduction, Deceit, Intimidation as 'techniques' for the 'Social' attribute.) In other words, keep things simple.

I reckon that's about 90% of what you need to reproduce the feel of the show, to be honest. So, I guess a prototype character sheet might look something like this:


Prince Zuko, heir presumptive to the Firelord

Goal: I will regain my father's approval by capturing the Avatar.
Belief: Reliance on others makes you weak.
Instinct: Never back down without a fight.

Reflex: 7
Balance: 3
Talent and Passion: Firebending 5, Rage 6

Talent Techniques: Flame Dagger, Firelance, Maelstrom, Cleave Force
Social Techniques: Intimidation, Rank and Station
Martial Techniques: Twin Swords, Climbing, Gymnast, Blade Parry, Ride

Traits: Brash, Prideful, Scarred, Tough, Youthful, Bitter, Impatient.
Assets: Twin swords, Mask, Fire nation ship, Sailing crew
Conditions: Infamous (major), Injured (minor), Ashamed (major)

Xefas
2010-08-31, 05:20 PM
I was inspired by this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165944) to give some thought to the general question of a dedicated system for RP in the world of Avatar:TLA. I don't have anything really organised together yet, but I thought I could just give a rundown of various points I reckoned were important, and/or nascent mechanics associated with them. I'd probably inclined toward something based on Mouse Guard, in terms of conflict resolution and chargen procedures.

I like it. The more that thread went on, the less I felt like using Fate 2.0 to do an Avatar game. I like Fate's simplicity, but I think you can do so much more with something as rich as Avatar.

Wanna make a hack of Mouse Guard for Avatar? :smallsmile:

I got some ideas...

EDIT: Samurai Jill, where'd your forum Avatar go? D=

Holocron Coder
2010-09-01, 11:21 AM
Personally, I've been thinking lately that a slight reworking of the Dresden Files RPG (based on FATE), would be a good basis for an Avatar:TLA system.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-01, 01:42 PM
Wanna make a hack of Mouse Guard for Avatar? :smallsmile:

I got some ideas...
Sure, I'd love to hear 'em. :)

The only trouble I see with Mouse Guard is that there's no clear equivalent to the Guard itself that can send coherent parties off on predefined missions (which is quite handy.) Might want to give some thought to the general historical period too.

Uh, I was going to restore my forum avvie, I just never got around to coming up with a replacement...


Personally, I've been thinking lately that a slight reworking of the Dresden Files RPG (based on FATE), would be a good basis for an Avatar:TLA system.
Can't say myself, since I don't own it, but what features did you find appealing?

Xefas
2010-09-01, 02:26 PM
The only trouble I see with Mouse Guard is that there's no clear equivalent to the Guard itself that can send coherent parties off on predefined missions (which is quite handy.) Might want to give some thought to the general historical period too.

Musing on Mission Structure
Well, in this case, we'd cut out the Guard ranks, and instead of the "Mission" structure, we could make it an "Adventure" or even an "Episode" structure, to preserve the Checks mechanic, and the GM/Player turns. I think that the model could actually work pretty well for Avatar.

Try to imagine an episode of Avatar using the Mouse Guard 'mission' model. On the player's turn - that's the happy-go-lucky town time. Sokka goes shopping for a hand-bag. Katara looks for a Waterbending scroll. Aang continuously fails Resource checks.

And then, there's generally a notable shift. Suddenly, they don't have time to do any of that stuff. Pirates all up in the hell right now. Zuko is trying to murder them again. There's a horrible owl-beast ruining Sokka's vacation time. Etc. That's the GM's turn.

Alternatively, you could just scrap that whole thing, but in my experience, it really keeps the action flowing. No one spends too long away from the action, and sometimes you really have to choose between "Alright, is it more important to my character to spend their last check on solving their Angry condition, or to spend it getting another test in on bringing up my Waterbending skill? 'cause I only got so long before Pirates all up in the hell right now." It makes for some interesting decisions.

Ideas About Nature
I think Nature could make a great mechanic for Avatar. You could have a set Nature depending upon the Nation you hail from. Of course, Nature has to be something at-odds with adventuring (Mouse Guard has something like foraging, running away, and hiding).

So, we could pick some decidedly negative or non-adventuring traits of each nation, and that would be Nature. Water Tribe Nature could be something like "Fishing, Sailing, Preserving Tradition". So, everyone from the Water Tribe is going to be somewhat competent at Fishing and Sailing (heck, even the Foggy Swamp Tribe was good at these things) and they can invoke Nature when someone is trying to convince them to violate their customs (pretty heavy usage by Pakku, Yue, and even Gran-Gran; she did exile the Avatar for messing with an old ship).

Samurai Jill
2010-09-01, 03:58 PM
Well, in this case, we'd cut out the Guard ranks, and instead of the "Mission" structure, we could make it an "Adventure" or even an "Episode" structure, to preserve the Checks mechanic, and the GM/Player turns. I think that the model could actually work pretty well for Avatar.
I agree entirely on the usefulness of a turn structure and checks mechanic, and it absolutely fits with the feeling of the show, but my point is that Mouse Guard has very clear procedures and justifications for putting together a coherent patrol and sending it off to do something, rather than relying solely on the players to answer:

(A) What do the characters want to achieve, and
(B) What motivates them to work together?

In other words, Mouse Guard uses Situation-based Premise- there's a specific, local problem to solve that you're dispatched to handle, and (while there are certainly some knock-on effects,) you then generally move on to another problem in an episodic fashion. Avatar, on the other hand, seems to rely on Setting-based Premise- there's some very large-scale looming crisis which provides a long-range problem that 'squeezes' the PCs into action, but how you go about tackling it, and what motivates the characters to work together, is much more open-ended.

It works in the show (which is, after all, episodic!) because Aang's needs are paramount and he has a highly specific 'todo list' that Sokka and Katara are willing to help with that drags 'em all hither and yon over several continents, getting them into all sorts of delightful trouble (which is of course the point, storywise.) But it might be hard to replicate that with arbitrary characters made by players that all want an equal say in the story direction.

I mean, remember that episode where K & S have to decide between sticking with Aang or going to meet with their father? If you present real players with that kind of decision, there's no guarantee they'll give the same answer. (And if you don't, there's no drama.)


This is why I think the historical period for the game could also be quite important- If you set it during the hundred years prior to Aang's discovery, sooner or later the Fire Nation is going to get up in your biznez. If you set it during the time of Avatar Kyoshi, Warlord Chin and the Dai Li will refuse to butt out. There was supposedly a 25-year period during the time of Avatar Yangchen with no wars whatsoever that mostly extended through the reign of Avatar Kuruk, so pretexts for Epic Fury will be hard to come by there.

I'm not saying that this is an insoluble problem, or that there's a single "best" way to solve it, but the question needs more conscious attention than it's given under the basic Mouse Guard rules.

I think Nature could make a great mechanic for Avatar. You could have a set Nature depending upon the Nation you hail from. Of course, Nature has to be something at-odds with adventuring (Mouse Guard has something like foraging, running away, and hiding).

So, we could pick some decidedly negative or non-adventuring traits of each nation, and that would be Nature. Water Tribe Nature could be something like "Fishing, Sailing, Preserving Tradition". So, everyone from the Water Tribe is going to be somewhat competent at Fishing and Sailing (heck, even the Foggy Swamp Tribe was good at these things) and they can invoke Nature when someone is trying to convince them to violate their customs (pretty heavy usage by Pakku, Yue, and even Gran-Gran; she did exile the Avatar for messing with an old ship).
That's quite similar to what I was suggesting with Rage/Passiveness/Fear, etc- the idea being that this would be equivalent to 'Nature' for a specific Nation. It would be easy to expand the range of descriptors a bit, of course. (I'd argue that one of the main themes of Pakku and Yue's story was that adhering to tradition was actually harmful here, but that's another question.)

The idea of tying in various practical skills sounds good, and there are definitely other traits that could easily run counter to adventuring inclinations. Why don't you put together a list of all the qualities you'd associate with each nation, and we can look over that?

Mouse Guard has other attractive features, too- support for modelling different seasons of the year, which itself ties into the elements and ambient weather conditions, plus an extensive bestiary that could be adapted to the various wierd fauna of Avatar, what with Moose-Lions and wotnot. :)

Xefas
2010-09-01, 05:32 PM
(A) What do the characters want to achieve, and
(B) What motivates them to work together?

These sound like fine questions for the system to require a group of players to answer before they make their characters. Step 1 of character creation could read something like "Alright, everyone decide, collaboratively, to everyone's satisfaction, the following points. 1) What period will the game take place in. 2) What themes would you like to see presented and explored most of all. 3) What is a single goal all of your characters share, that somehow relates to the period and themes decided upon."


It works in the show (which is, after all, episodic!) because Aang's needs are paramount and he has a highly specific 'todo list' that Sokka and Katara are willing to help with that drags 'em all hither and yon over several continents, getting them into all sorts of delightful trouble (which is of course the point, storywise.) But it might be hard to replicate that with arbitrary characters made by players that all want an equal say in the story direction.

I mean, remember that episode where K & S have to decide between sticking with Aang or going to meet with their father? If you present real players with that kind of decision, there's no guarantee they'll give the same answer. (And if you don't, there's no drama.)

Well, this is a problem that can arise in any RPG, whether its based off of Mouse Guard, or Avatar, or whatever. You can be playing a Star Wars game in Primetime Adventures and find out that someone decided they'd make an amoral Hutt that is too obese to participate in adventures, and will constantly attempt to undermine the other players who all made extreme do-gooder Jedi.

The only way to fix it completely is to have the players communicate before they make their characters, and share some of their expectations with each other.

Although, Burning Wheel's use of the Duel of Wits to solve "Split the Party" situations is quite exquisite. There's no reason you couldn't do it with Mouse Guard's conflict system, and just use social skills.

As for the situation you cited, there comes a time where a player must ask themselves "Would it be more fun for me to take this one course of action and destroy the party dynamic we've had up until this point and almost certainly cause the game as we know it to fall apart, or would it be more fun for my character's priorities to change, as every real person's does now and again, and take the action that has everyone stick together and continue the game?"

At that point, I think, is when Sokka and Katara decided that saving the world was more important than seeing their Father slightly earlier than they would otherwise.


The idea of tying in various practical skills sounds good, and there are definitely other traits that could easily run counter to adventuring inclinations. Why don't you put together a list of all the qualities you'd associate with each nation, and we can look over that?

Alright, I'll give it a try. Some possible non-adventuring-centric traits, and possible measuring sticks for what constitutes high nature in one's field:

Earth Kingdom
Mining
Climbing
Masonry
Pottery
Stubbornness
Conformity
Cautious
Reserved

(Prospective Earth Nature 7: Tyro)

Fire Nation
Honorbound
Pride/Hubris
Confident
Aggressive
Emotional

(Prospective Earth Nature 7: Ozai)

Water Tribe
Sailing
Fishing
Swimming
Tradition
Community-Minded
Xenophobic

(Prospective Water Nature 7: Pakku)

Air Nomads
Detached
Introverted
Cold-Hearted
Exclusively Big Picture Thinking

(Prospective Air Nature 7: Yang-Chen)


Mouse Guard has other attractive features, too- support for modelling different seasons of the year, which itself ties into the elements and ambient weather conditions, plus an extensive bestiary that could be adapted to the various wierd fauna of Avatar, what with Moose-Lions and wotnot. :)

Definitely.

endoperez
2010-09-02, 05:55 AM
* Emotional metrics. Each Bending discipline seems to be associated with specific emotions or attitudes- Rage for Fire, Stubbornness for Earth, Empathy for Water, and Freedom for Air.

I'm not familiar with the Mouse Guard system, but I'll comment on the emotions and attributes. I don't know if this makes sense in the system, by I don't think you need positive, negative AND neutral aspects. More Rage means less control over the fire - it's rage vs control and not rage vs control vs zest.
Also, is it necessary to have Firebending and the emotions?
Firebending (rage) 6, Firebending (control) 2 or
Firebending (6), Rage (6), Control (2)

Rage (the negative) would power simple firebending, but Control (the positive) would be required for the advanced stuff. When Zuko tries to create lightning in Bitter Work, it explodes on his face. He could make it, but not control it. Control could be the sign of master firebender.

Without a bender, a rock will not throw itself, but fire will spread and destroy everything in its path if one does not have the will to control it. That is destiny, you are not ready. You are weak.
- Jeong Jeong, firebending master and deserter

Lightning is a pure expression of firebending without aggression. It is not fueled by rage or emotion the way other firebending is. Some call lightning the cold-blooded fire. It is precise and deadly like Azula. To perform the technique requires peace of mind.
-General Iroh


If the positive attribute of Airbending is Freedom, then the negative aspect could be Aloofness or Distance or Separation. They turned away from the world. Aang lacks backbone, doesn't want to commit to things and has a hard time accepting responsibility. The way he literally turned away from the world when he lost Appa could be made another part of this negative aspect.

Unless airbender stands his place and faces his problems, he will just delay the inevitable. Freedom (perhaps renamed Change) could be the sign of a master airbender, and the positive counterpart to the negative Separation/whatever. Change is a key word in bagua, the style it's based on, so you could use it instead of Freedom.

No! That's the problem. You've got to stop thinking like an airbender. There's no different angle, no clever solution, trickety-trick that's going to move that rock. You've got to face it head on. And when I say head on, I mean like THIS!
- Toph Bei Fong, blind earthbending master

I thought I was trying to be strong... but really I was just running away from my feelings.
- avatar Aang


Earth is about being stubborn and strong, but it also risks becoming static and stale. I'm not quite sure how the differentiate that from airbending's passiveness and the upkeeping of traditions suggested for waterbenders. One option would be to use neutrality, paraphrasing Bumi's comments from Return to Omashu:

Listen to me Aang, there are options in fighting called Jing. It's a choice of how you direct your energy. There's positive Jing when you're attacking and negative Jing when you're retreating - and Neutral Jing, when you do nothing. Neutral Jing is the key to earthbending, it involves listening and waiting for the right moment to strike. You need to find someone who waits and listens before striking.
- Bumi, King of Omashu and master earthbender

The positive aspect of earthbending would be Stability, or perhaps Balance, or Integrity, a state in which you don't move and can't be moved. I'm not sure what the negative aspect could be. Fixedness or inadaptability, perhaps, or forwardness, over-commitment and inability to change direction. Ooh, perhaps single-mindedness!
However, in the show sensing was a big specialty of Toph's. If you feel like it was a feature of earthbenders in general, Sensing could be the posivite side of earth. In that case waterbending needs a new trick.


Waterbending is based on Tai Chi, and sensing is a big thing on that. It's a bit like training for a physical empathy, learning to read your opponent's moves, usually trained through touch instead of sight. The goal is to enhance your reactions and reflexes. Sensing or Empathy could be the positive side of its emotional spectrum, or Adaptability, but I don't know about the negative.

The negative aspect of waterbending could be tradition or history, in some form. Seeking revenge was a very Water Tribe thing to do. Zuko helped Katara give up on her revenge, IIRC. Then there's Yue, for whom duty was more important than love, or her life. Sokka and Katara don't fit in very well, though... that might explain why Katara became a master waterbender and Sokka a general. Also, it's the water tribes, and their nation doesn't seem to have anything resembling an industry. Or metalworkers.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-02, 06:20 AM
Discussion of inter-PC disagreements:


These sound like fine questions for the system to require a group of players to answer before they make their characters. Step 1 of character creation could read something like "Alright, everyone decide, collaboratively, to everyone's satisfaction, the following points. 1) What period will the game take place in. 2) What themes would you like to see presented and explored most of all. 3) What is a single goal all of your characters share, that somehow relates to the period and themes decided upon."
It sounds like a fine sentiment, and it's certainly doable.
* I'd incline toward offering a few examples by way of inspiration, and maybe a general rundown of the world's history.
* The common goal need not be shared directly. If you look at Firefly (which also runs on Situation-based Premise,) the people aboard all got on for different reasons, chief among them loyalty to other crew members. (Zoe to Mal, Wash to Zoe, Simon to River.)
* There may have to be some potential for violence in the setting/period, given that combat is a significant element of the show.

The thing is that players who come to the table with the expectation of something similar in feeling to the TV show may be... surprised?... when they play a bunch of Air Nomads after Roku's death and wind up creating something that feels more like Dances With Wolves. What with the, uh, impending genocide, and all. Y'know, just a heads-up.

Another question to answer is whether you care about maintaining historical continuity- i.e, you start off in a given period, but after that, anything goes? Or, are you conscious of future events at all times, as an element of theme?

Although, Burning Wheel's use of the Duel of Wits to solve "Split the Party" situations is quite exquisite. There's no reason you couldn't do it with Mouse Guard's conflict system, and just use social skills.
Again, I'm in full agreement here. And I don't mean to imply that inter-PC disagreement or desertion is always no-no-bad-evil-wrong don't-ever-do-that, because under the right circumstances it can go a long way to highlight an emergent theme. (The Burning Wheel core rulebook gives at least two examples of PCs with Beliefs primed to trigger long-term mutual conflict. e.g "All sorcerors are evil creatures and must be destroyed", based directly on experiences with the party's sorceror.)

But drama comes, broadly speaking, from escalating disagreements with people (either directly or indirectly, individually or en masse.) If there's only a limited selection of people available to interact with, then drama has to come from splits within that group. This is the advantage of the approach you see in DitV or Mouse Guard (or Firefly)- by wandering from place to place you get a constant supply of new characters to interact with in a way that's natural, so that PC-to-NPC interactions can provide some or all of the drama. Similarly, by cutting up the story into bite-sized chunks, if any of the PCs defect or kill eachother (which is still quite possible,) there's a natural mechanism for replacing them in the roster. MG is very much designed around this assumption.

At that point, I think, is when Sokka and Katara decided that saving the world was more important than seeing their Father slightly earlier than they would otherwise.
Counterexample- different fiction, but same principle: Betrayal of Boromir in LotR, triggering Frodo's departure and capture of Pippin/Merry?

I mean, again, this doesn't happen in the show because there is literally nothing more important than getting Aang in one piece to the north pole, end of discussion. But if people can reasonably disagree over the best way to solve the large-scale problem embedded in the setting, then that's a recipe for inter-PC conflict. Again, not a bad thing, but a thing that needs attention. (Even the Duel of Wits still allows for escalation to violence.)
Uh... anyways. I guess that's all I can say about it for now without going in circles.

Alright, I'll give it a try. Some possible non-adventuring-centric traits, and possible measuring sticks for what constitutes high nature in one's field:
Some good examples there. I hadn't thought of some of the craft skills, especially.

I'm still a little leery of some personality descriptors. Remember Ihro's description: It's hard to reconcile Traditionalism with Water as the Element of Change. Air Nomads had a sense of humour and loved freedom. Earth Kingdom was 'diverse'. Aang is an Airbender himself- they're pacifists, apparently.

These were the proposals I had originally...

Water Tribe Nature: Empathy, Sorrow, Community, Adaptability, Deceit, Fishing, Swimming, Medicines.

Fire Nation Nature: Rage, Pleasure, Ambition, Competitive, Industry, Metallurgy, Engineering, Swordsman.

Air Nomad Nature: Freedom, Levity and Humour, Curiosity, Running, Fear, Gymnast, Climbing, Weather Lore.

Earth Kingdom Nature: Stubborn, Passive, Sincerity, Tough, Building, Farming, Geography, Empty Hand.
So, add in Sailing, Mining, and Ceramics at least...

Potential problem- if 'Nature' is linked to Bending ability in the way I suggested originally, it could go down as well as up. Does it make sense for Mining ability to go down once you master Metalbending?

Perhaps it might be better to use the Nations (and related skills) as the basis of a rudimentary Lifepaths system. (Which reminds me- another advantage of the Mouse-Guard-as-institution is that it greatly simplifies lifepath mechanics. *sighs*)


Also- I haven't actually seen all the episodes yet, so I'd appreciate any details you could fill in. In particular, what kind of craft skills cropped up over the course of the series?

Samurai Jill
2010-09-02, 07:11 AM
@ Endoperez:

What I had in mind is very similar to what you're suggesting- the idea is that each Element has a core emotion (or maybe a couple) that fuel the early techniques, but actually inhibit mastery of the more advanced techniques. This is the purpose of the 'Balance' attribute.

The example I gave of Zuko was intended to illustrate the problem- his Balance of 3 is insufficient to counter his Rage of 6, so that while he can do regular firebending with great proficiency, his attempts to learn Lightning are essentially doomed. He needs to raise his Balance and lower his Rage first. (Balance doubles as a social attribute.)

My hypothesis is that this actually extends across all 4 disciplines: i.e, when Bumi is talking about neutral Jing, he's referring to the same principle as Ihro when he talks about separating positive/negative Jing and releasing energy from the gap between them. In other words, the 'Tremor Sense' that Toph exhibits is actually a very powerful technique up there with Lightning, and similarly relies on neutral Jing.

Of course, this progression is more significant for some Benders than others. Waterbenders tend to fairly Balanced in any case, since Empathy is a core emotion for them, and that ties into social situations, but that hinders their initial progression for the obvious reason that Empathy and combat don't mix. Firebenders, on the other hand, can pump up their Rage easily by getting into fights, but it hinders their later progression, because looking for trouble eats away at their Balance. So that the challenge for a Waterbender is to find something worth fighting for, and the challenge for a Firebender is to find relationships to ground themselves with.

All that said, there's obviously no official endorsement for this in the canon, and I might be getting this completely wrong, but I think it fits reasonably well with the dynamics you see over the course of the show.


I'll try to comment on your suggestions in more detail, but for now- since you seem to know a bit about actual martial arts :) - I'd appreciate it if you could give some feedback on the combat system. Mouse Guard uses a system of pre-scripted maneuvers- a little like rock-paper-scissors- that eliminates the need for initiative rolls but requires 'guessing' your opponent's moves in advance.

The thought I had was actually to expand on that a little, and relate each Bending style to specific maneuvers:

* Strike is straightforward. (does damage, counters control, requires suitable weapon)
* Defend means staying in place but bracing yourself for an attack. (counters strike, +2 to next move, requires suitable weapon)
* Control means using pinning, tripping, locks, freezing, etc. on your opponent. (prevents next opponent move, -2 penalty, counters draw or close, requires suitable weapon)
* Feint means a deceptive opening to 'lure' your opponent out. (+2 bonus, counters defend or assess, does damage on counter, requires suitable weapon)
* Withdraw means retreating to another position. (counters strike, +2 bonus to next move if NOT a counter- needed for an escape)
* Assess means circling for advantage. (counters withdraw or defend, +2 bonus to next move)
* Evade means dodging out of the way. (counters strike or control, -2 to next move)
* Close means charging or stepping in well, closer. (counters defend or evade, +2 to next move)

+2 bonus if it's a specific counter. -2 penalty per extra opponent you're fighting at once. -2 penalty for an unarmed attack against an armed attack (Bending is always considered a 'weapon' for these purposes.)

Airbending tends to emphasise evasion, withdrawal, and assessment. Waterbending tends to emphasise control, feints, and withdrawal. Earthbending tends to emphasise strikes, control, and defence. Firebending tends to emphasise closing, strikes, and evasion.
Mouse Guard itself just uses 4 potential moves: attack, defend, feint and maneuver, and extends that to any conflict- social, military, tracking, journeys, etc. So, maybe this is more complicated than it needs to be, or just plain wrong, but it would be nice to apply a similar mechanic to other conflicts.

endoperez
2010-09-02, 11:24 AM
I'll try to comment on your suggestions in more detail, but for now- since you seem to know a bit about actual martial arts :) - I'd appreciate it if you could give some feedback on the combat system. Mouse Guard uses a system of pre-scripted maneuvers- a little like rock-paper-scissors- that eliminates the need for initiative rolls but requires 'guessing' your opponent's moves in advance.

I'd like to help, but I'm afraid I don't understand the Mouse Guard system.

Is there an opposed roll? Is it based on a skill or skills? What kind of a roll is it and how much does a +2 affect it?

Do you need to deal damage to finish a fight? If you do, I don't think your suggested system will work. If only two choices deal damage (strike, feint), everything will end up being about those two, any way, and the direct counters to them. Instead, various weapons and bending styles could give you different options for the choices. Say, Firebending gives you the option of using "hard counter" instead of defend; deals damage on a counter but gives no bonus/gives -2 to next action. That would have some weird consequences for social encounters...

If there are other ways of winning a fight, what are they? Some kind of self-sustaining control/immobilization would be in order, I think. Forced to move backwards, back against wall, sword held at throat could be one example, immobilizing in ice another. Think of Zuko in the first season finale, fighting against Katara, being pushed against a frozen wall and then covered in ice, only to melt it away. Several successfull Control checks, perhaps? With a difficult check needed to get free again?

Samurai Jill
2010-09-02, 02:02 PM
The basic system is dice pools based on skill ranks. (e.g, if you have Balance 6, you roll 6d2 (in effect) to determine a check result.) Every round you roll checks vs. an opponent, with various bonuses depending on the move you chose, technique, and perhaps bending discipline. A +/-2 modifier can be pretty substantial.

You basically get a form of "temporary Hit Points" called Disposition that gets worn down over the course of the struggle- depending on the kind of conflict and eventual margin of success, different conditions might result from the outcome (the ultimate 'stakes' are negotiated beforehand.) "Damage", IIRC, matches the margin of success on a check. Total disposition is generally 10.

"Freezing" is an example of Control, (sinking opponents beneath the earth would be another,) and could represent an indirect form of 'damage,' since it leaves the opponent helpless. Zuko vs. Katara was exactly what I was thinking of.

You make a fair point about Strikes and Feints, and I guess some changes could be in order- But what I'm really looking for is a kind of "guessing game"- e.g, you know I'll Strike, so you'll open with Defend, so I'll open with Feint, but you KNOW that I'll open with Feint, so you'll REALLY open with Close... etc. etc. etc.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-02, 02:34 PM
...this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU), basically.

Xefas
2010-09-02, 03:03 PM
Woah, a lot of text here since I left. I hope I catch everything. If I accidentally leave something out, it's not intentional.


Discussion of inter-PC disagreements:

I agree with everything you said here, but I'm not sure what action you're suggesting. This is an interesting discussion about roleplaying (one that I find fascinating and wouldn't mind discussing at length), but what are you suggesting needs to be done?

I think that if we explicitly state that the group should make their characters in such a way that they have at least some tenuous reason to stay together, and at least some tenuous reason to cause drama amongst themselves, and then give examples of exactly what we mean, and explicitly state that having a Social Conflict to resolve the direction the party goes in if a consensus cannot be reached, then there should be no problem. We've supported the dynamic of both party togetherness and party drama in words, and also mechanically.


I'm still a little leery of some personality descriptors. Remember Ihro's description: It's hard to reconcile Traditionalism with Water as the Element of Change. Air Nomads had a sense of humour and loved freedom. Earth Kingdom was 'diverse'. Aang is an Airbender himself- they're pacifists, apparently.

Well, not everyone of every group is going to have High Nature, and Nature doesn't necessarily have to represent the element itself, just the culture of the group of people based around the element. That's the point of Nature; it's the bland society that you, as an adventurer, lower so you can rise above the masses and do great things. A Nature 6-7 Airbender should be sitting alone in a temple eating unflavored tofu cakes pondering the meaning of the universe, and never even considering going adventuring. A Nature 1-2 Airbender should be full of excitement and wonder, constantly traveling the world to experience new things (who do we know like that?).

This is clearly paralleled by the Mouse Nature. Nature 6-7 Mice sit at home hoarding food for the winter and hiding from anything of interest. Nature 1-2 Mice are on the front lines, hungry and tired, trying to figure out how they're going to take down this Moose before it enters the Territories and wipes out a town.

Nature, as a mechanic, is meant to be a trade off. If you have, say, 6 or 7 Nature, even if you have no Fighter points, you can substitute in your huge Nature score and own just about anyone. The problem, of course, being that now your Nature gets knocked down a point. And the more cool stuff you do, the lower your Nature is going to get (and so the less useful it becomes).

So, I see what you're trying to do, and it's awesome, but I don't think Nature is the right way to do it. Nature ultimately penalizes you for being the big damn hero, to represent the struggle of a Mouse trying to not be a Mouse. You seem to want to reward someone for being the big damn hero in accordance with their culture, so maybe an entirely different mechanic is in order.


Potential problem- if 'Nature' is linked to Bending ability in the way I suggested originally, it could go down as well as up. Does it make sense for Mining ability to go down once you master Metalbending?

I don't think Nature and Bending should be linked if we do actually use Nature.


Perhaps it might be better to use the Nations (and related skills) as the basis of a rudimentary Lifepaths system. (Which reminds me- another advantage of the Mouse-Guard-as-institution is that it greatly simplifies lifepath mechanics. *sighs*)

This might actually be a better way to do it. Hmmm...


Also- I haven't actually seen all the episodes yet, so I'd appreciate any details you could fill in. In particular, what kind of craft skills cropped up over the course of the series?

Well, Season 1 had mostly fishing, sailing, fishmongering, etc. Season 2 had mostly mining, earthenwares, bomb-making, etc. Season 3 had submarines, airships, and Sokka did some swordsmithing. Does Hama crafting puppets count? Honestly they don't go into it terribly much.



The thought I had was actually to expand on that a little, and relate each Bending style to specific maneuvers:

Mouse Guard itself just uses 4 potential moves: attack, defend, feint and maneuver, and extends that to any conflict- social, military, tracking, journeys, etc. So, maybe this is more complicated than it needs to be, or just plain wrong, but it would be nice to apply a similar mechanic to other conflicts.

One of the big benefits to Mouse Guard, in my opinion, is specifically that the conflict resolution system is simple and the same across all conflicts. It lends itself to the system being very easy to pick up and learn, and for combats to go relatively smoothly. I think expanding combat to incorporate a lot of different moves would be a mistake in the long run. Just my opinion, though.

EDIT:

...this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU), basically.

I lol'd.

To go a little more in depth (for Endo's benefit) about the philosophy of Mouse Guard combat (and to an extent Burning Wheel's as well), if all you ever do is Attack/Strike/etc over and over, you're actually likely to win. It's not like rock/paper/scissors. Striking is the best move. The problem is that the system runs on Disposition. Sure you might get your opponent to 0 Disposition, but you leave yourself open. If they get you down to a low Disposition, it doesn't matter if you won, because you're not getting exactly what you wanted anyway.

Example:
Knight: "If I win this Social Conflict, I will have your beautiful daughter's hand in marriage!"
(strike strike strike)
King: "Well, I lost, but I got you down to 2 Disposition. So, I guess you can have my ugliest, filthiest, manliest daughter's hand in marriage instead."
Knight: "But that's just a lamp that you covered with manure and taped a sign that says "Daughter" to."
King:"Exactly"

Orzel
2010-09-02, 05:14 PM
Well you can steal an idea from one of my homebrew rpgs. It uses Seeds of Victory which are special longterm penalties certain characters can place on enemies who defeat them if they meet certain requirements. Like a anyone who deats a zombie but has less 5 physical health at the end of the fight, was bitten by the zombie sometime during the battle. Or you'll owe a debt to the king if you win with less than 2 social health.

For example, if you defeat a firebender but have less than X remaining, you are burnt. So spamming strike will often give you a victory, but it will cost you a lot.

Xefas
2010-09-02, 05:38 PM
Well you can steal an idea from one of my homebrew rpgs. It uses Seeds of Victory which are special longterm penalties certain characters can place on enemies who defeat them if they meet certain requirements. Like a anyone who deats a zombie but has less 5 physical health at the end of the fight, was bitten by the zombie sometime during the battle. Or you'll owe a debt to the king if you win with less than 2 social health.

For example, if you defeat a firebender but have less than X remaining, you are burnt. So spamming strike will often give you a victory, but it will cost you a lot.

That's exactly what Mouse Guard does. Depending upon the margin of success, the loser gets a "compromise".

So, two Firebenders fight an Agni Kai. Players A wins, with 2 Disposition left. Player B gets a major compromise. He could have forced Player A to resort to dishonorable tactics, so while Player A won, he is looked upon with disgrace by all who attended. Or he could have badly burned Player A in the process, taking him out of commission for a while (how long? long enough to majorly inconvenience something plot-relevant). Or maybe Player B lost, but he did so in such a badass way, that he ended up impressing a girl in the crowd who will show up as a positive side character for him in the future.

Possibly the best part is that what exactly happens has to be agreed upon by everyone at the table (its an explicit rule and everything). It tends to mitigate a lot of bad vibes people get from losing, especially when two player characters are fighting. The situation seems more like the group is telling an awesome story, where the character you like happens to have lost, rather than you lost.

endoperez
2010-09-02, 09:30 PM
Okay, that description helps a lot. I'll have to think about the implications, but that does seem rather interesting.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-03, 06:10 AM
I agree with everything you said here, but I'm not sure what action you're suggesting. This is an interesting discussion about roleplaying (one that I find fascinating and wouldn't mind discussing at length), but what are you suggesting needs to be done?

I think that if we explicitly state that the group should make their characters in such a way that they have at least some tenuous reason to stay together, and at least some tenuous reason to cause drama amongst themselves, and then give examples of exactly what we mean, and explicitly state that having a Social Conflict to resolve the direction the party goes in if a consensus cannot be reached, then there should be no problem. We've supported the dynamic of both party togetherness and party drama in words, and also mechanically.
I'm not really certain about the exact 'precautions' you could take here, or even if they're neccesary, but I guess I could suggest the following:

1. Provide a reasonably comprehensive outline of the setting and it's history, and maybe some sample 'missions.' More than in MG, but perhaps fewer sample characters(?)
2. Provide support for a 'Journey' structure of some kind, perhaps divided into 'Books' and 'Chapters'. Something that involves travel, damnit, or at least transgressing various 'territorial boundaries' with respect to different power blocs in the setting.
3. Provide a metagame mechanism that grants bonuses to chargen if you're last character 'dies well' (similar to what you'd see in The Riddle of Steel or Agon.) That is, if a player's character died for their Beliefs and burnt plenty of artha in the process, their next guy will be more badass for it. The drawback is that you need to keep track of that kind of activity- though it's possible you could co-opt Circles into a 'Renown' attribute that does the job(?)


So, I see what you're trying to do, and it's awesome, but I don't think Nature is the right way to do it. Nature ultimately penalizes you for being the big damn hero, to represent the struggle of a Mouse trying to not be a Mouse. You seem to want to reward someone for being the big damn hero in accordance with their culture, so maybe an entirely different mechanic is in order.
Not precisely... The idea behind the passions here is something similar to Nature, in that it's helpful for beginners, but has to go down eventually if you're going to progress very far in Bending. The idea is that passions fuel basic Bending, but inhibit the more advanced techniques. This relates back to Ihro's comment that the most powerful Benders are those who can combine aspects of each culture to supplement their own discipline and understanding.

To give an example, Empathy penalises you for doing adventuring-style things, because it means leaving your community and using violence to defend yourself, which tend to drive Empathy down. (Of course, in the long run, that's actually beneficial for the Waterbender, since it makes it easier to access the neutral Jing needed for advanced techniques.)

Firebenders have the opposite problem. Rage fits in easily with an adventuring lifestyle, but unless it's tempered by self-control and compassion, it'll eat away at Balance and make advanced techniques difficult.

The other change I'd probably make is that Passions of 0 or 10 don't make the character unplayable per se- instead, they raise the risk of losing self-control. e.g, a character with Fear 10 is liable to run for cover at the slightest provocation.

Well, Season 1 had mostly fishing, sailing, fishmongering, etc. Season 2 had mostly mining, earthenwares, bomb-making, etc. Season 3 had submarines, airships, and Sokka did some swordsmithing. Does Hama crafting puppets count? Honestly they don't go into it terribly much.
My inclination would be to model them as Techniques applied to the the Craft attribute (i.e, Resources.) You can get some diversity that way, without having advance skills separately.

One of the big benefits to Mouse Guard, in my opinion, is specifically that the conflict resolution system is simple and the same across all conflicts. It lends itself to the system being very easy to pick up and learn, and for combats to go relatively smoothly. I think expanding combat to incorporate a lot of different moves would be a mistake in the long run. Just my opinion, though.
No, it's a fair point.

I'll probably shelve expanded combat for the moment, then. Actually, it would be simple enough to assign an Element to each of the major 'moves'-

Attack (fire), Defend (earth), Feint (water), Maneuver (air)

Ooh- and I forgot all about the four (http://www.typology.net/symbols/point1.gif) temperaments (http://www.fisheaters.com/fourtemperaments.html)! ...Though if anyone counts as 'Sanguine', it's Ihro.

"Sanguine. Hopeful. Point of interest- it also means 'bloody'."
"...Well that about covers the options, don't it."

Samurai Jill
2010-09-03, 09:35 AM
Possibly the best part is that what exactly happens has to be agreed upon by everyone at the table (its an explicit rule and everything). It tends to mitigate a lot of bad vibes people get from losing, especially when two player characters are fighting. The situation seems more like the group is telling an awesome story, where the character you like happens to have lost, rather than you lost.
*nods* It's a story-focused ruleset, in the sense of making a story, rather than suffering through one.

At any rate, I think I have a second draft for the character sheet at this point:


Name and description

Goal
Belief
Instinct

Relations: Kindred, Masters, Friends and Rivals.

Body: Physical attribute, aids some techniques, used to recover from physical conditions.
Craft: General cunning- used for manufacture, purchases, wilderness survival.
Reflex: Used for stealth, sense checks, and most combat, including in Bending.
Balance: Used for self-control and social situations, needed for advanced Bending.

Talent: Innate Bending ability, (if any.)
Passions: Basic emotions that fuel particular conflict maneuvers and basic Bending.

Bending Techniques:
Martial Techniques:
Social Techniques:
Craft Techniques:

Traits: Distinguishing physical characteristics and psychological quirks.
Assets: Personal possessions or accoutrements.
Conditions: Setbacks and penalties afflicting the character.
Karma: Personal connections and general fame, earned through heroism- feeds into next character.


So, Karma takes the place of Circles (with a dash of Deeds Artha) and Craft takes the place of Resources. Body, Craft, Reflex, Balance, Talent and Passions all advance (roughly speaking) as skills based on practice.

Edit: Revised Sokka Sample-


Sokka, a son of the Southern Water Tribe

Goal: Protect Aang and Katara.
Belief: Science is the key to understanding reality.
Instinct: Always have my weapons to hand.

Relations: Aang (kindred,) Katara (kindred,) Suki (friend,) Piandao (master)

Artha: Fate 2, Persona 3
Checks: 2

Body: 5
Craft: 5
Reflex: 8
Balance: 6

Bending: Water 3
Passions: Lover 4
Rage 2
Karma: 6, +2 among Water Tribes

Bending Techniques:
Martial Techniques: Melee, Longsword, Blade Parry, Thunderstroke, Steel Whorl
Social Techniques: Sarcasm, Interrogate, Accusation
Craft Techniques: Metallurgy, Engineering, Tactics, Hunting, Sailing

Traits: Skeptical, Confident, Joker, Inventive, Complaining, Handsome
Assets: Boomerang, Shortsword, Starmetal Sword
Conditions:



If the positive attribute of Airbending is Freedom, then the negative aspect could be Aloofness or Distance or Separation. They turned away from the world. Aang lacks backbone, doesn't want to commit to things and has a hard time accepting responsibility. The way he literally turned away from the world when he lost Appa could be made another part of this negative aspect.
I agree very much with your analysis here. What I was inclined toward was that the flip side of Freedom would be fear, or cowardice, or running.

He loses Appa?!? *cries*

The negative aspect of waterbending could be tradition or history, in some form. Seeking revenge was a very Water Tribe thing to do. Zuko helped Katara give up on her revenge, IIRC. Then there's Yue, for whom duty was more important than love, or her life. Sokka and Katara don't fit in very well, though... that might explain why Katara became a master waterbender and Sokka a general. Also, it's the water tribes, and their nation doesn't seem to have anything resembling an industry. Or metalworkers.
Good point about metallurgy, or the lack thereof. It might explain why Firebending has better weapon synergy.
Hmm. I still find 'Tradition' tricky to reconcile with change, but it might be viewed as a natural extension (or fossilisation) of 'community'.

The thing is, all the nations have strict rules and traditions. The FN has the Agni Kai, Aang gets pretty steamed at the treatment of the second Air Temple, and Kyoshi's institutions have been going strong for well over a century. What I find interesting is that the Fire Nation has probably undergone the most change, since it's in the full throes of industrialisation.

One other thing I've noticed- not sure if it's relevant, but I found it interesting- was that Ba Gua (air) and Tai Chi (water) are 'internal' or Naijian arts, focused initially on mental and spiritual development, whereas Northern Shaolin (fire) and Hung Gar (earth) are 'external' martial arts, focused initially on physical and athletic development.

EDIT: Hang on, actually. The wiki (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Jing) seems to support the idea that neutral Jing is particularly important to Earthbenders. Maybe once we get down to some specific techniques, we can start to think about how to model that.

Xefas
2010-09-03, 12:29 PM
I'm not really certain about the exact 'precautions' you could take here, or even if they're neccesary, but I guess I could suggest the following:

1. Provide a reasonably comprehensive outline of the setting and it's history, and maybe some sample 'missions.' More than in MG, but perhaps fewer sample characters(?)
2. Provide support for a 'Journey' structure of some kind, perhaps divided into 'Books' and 'Chapters'. Something that involves travel, damnit, or at least transgressing various 'territorial boundaries' with respect to different power blocs in the setting.
3. Provide a metagame mechanism that grants bonuses to chargen if you're last character 'dies well' (similar to what you'd see in The Riddle of Steel or Agon.) That is, if a player's character died for their Beliefs and burnt plenty of artha in the process, their next guy will be more badass for it. The drawback is that you need to keep track of that kind of activity- though it's possible you could co-opt Circles into a 'Renown' attribute that does the job(?)

I like all of those suggestions. Especially #3. The only problem I could foresee from it is having to tell someone that "No, I don't think you died quite epically enough to qualify". The solution, I think, would be to make the bonus itself good, but not *enormous*, and give some pretty epic guidelines/examples.



Not precisely... The idea behind the passions here is something similar to Nature, in that it's helpful for beginners, but has to go down eventually if you're going to progress very far in Bending. The idea is that passions fuel basic Bending, but inhibit the more advanced techniques. This relates back to Ihro's comment that the most powerful Benders are those who can combine aspects of each culture to supplement their own discipline and understanding.

I'm still not sure I completely understand. It sounds good, but I think I'll have to wait for a full on official rules-speak write up with numbers and such before I can wrap my head around it (even if it's a very basic, makeshift write up).


Ooh- and I forgot all about the four (http://www.typology.net/symbols/point1.gif) temperaments (http://www.fisheaters.com/fourtemperaments.html)!

D= ...y'know, I've never seen an alignment system where "Yellow Bile" was an option. New experiences every day.



Sokka Character Sheet
1) Instinct: Always have my weapons to hand
2) Prince Zuko (rival)

It's funny, because that Instinct is so perfect for Sokka. I can even recall an episode where he totally would've gotten Artha for denying it.

Sokka: "You're saying all of your stuff is important enough to go back for, but not my boomerang?!"
Katara: "That's correct!"
Sokka: "=("

And then, later in the episode, Sokka is reunited with Boomerang in one of the funniest parts (to me) of the show, because it's an intrinsic part of his character (seriously, he had to stick massive amounts of character points into that thing for what he does with it).

For 2) I don't think Sokka really had a rival, other than for that brief period at the North Pole. If you *had* to shoehorn a rival in, I'd say he would constitute his own rival - his struggle and competition against his own feelings of inadequacy is what spurned him forward, rather than competing with someone else.

I think Katara's rival might qualify as Toph, you think? There's at least two episodes about it.

The biggest problem with this character sheet, however, is there's nothing to represent just how inexplicably attractive Sokka is. The majority of recurring female characters have explicitly stated they were attracted to Sokka, and its been implied at least a little bit for every single one of them. Not to mention, he's the only character in the history of the Nickelodeon channel to have gotten laid mid-show.

I think that this is what his player traded bending for.


He loses Appa?!? *cries*

What?! Where are you at in the show?! Oh ****, have I been spoiling things? Oh god, you have to tell us where're you're at in the show so we don't spoil anything!

endoperez
2010-09-03, 03:02 PM
What?! Where are you at in the show?! Oh ****, have I been spoiling things? Oh god, you have to tell us where're you're at in the show so we don't spoil anything!

Nothing we can do, really, since he's been reading the thread where people discuss the relative bending prowess of people at the end of the show.

I like the character sheet, but I don't know the system so I can't really say if there's anything missing. One thing, though: Sokka's definitely not a waterbender. Bending power may run in families, but not everyone has the gift.

Xefas
2010-09-03, 03:38 PM
Sokka's definitely not a waterbender. Bending power may run in families, but not everyone has the gift.

This actually brings up a fairly interesting thing about bending that I've been thinking about for a while. In the world's creation myths, each bending was taught to man by a different entity (Dragons, Sky Bison, Badger Moles, and the Moon). Somehow, amidst these disparate situations, an Avatar arises with the knowledge and ability to use all four kinds of bending, and the phenomenon that allows them to do so is reincarnated into the world in a set cycle of cultures, but the individuals themselves seem to be chosen randomly.

In the time before the Avatar, and before the time of the supposed tutelage of man by the four elemental spirits, there were apparently entities that could bend pure energy and spirit.

However, in the time that The Last Airbender takes place in, there seems to be heavy evidence that bending is not a spiritual or purely knowledge-based phenomenon. It appears to have a heavy genetic component. For instance, all members of the Fire Nation's Royal Family are Firebenders (very powerful firebenders at that - every single one of them). If bending potential were non-genetic, this would have to be a situation of ridiculous coincidence.

This brings about a few interesting potential settings for a game of Avatar to explore.

Idea 1) All Air Nomads are Airbenders. If Bending is genetic, there must have been some kind of genetic singularity event in the culture's past, whereby all non-benders of the Air Nomads were wiped out by something that benders could survive, leading to a certain genetic purity among the survivors, whereby no Air Nomad is even a "carrier" for the gene - every single one of them shows it as a dominant feature. It could be interesting to play a game that tells the story of the singularity.

Idea 2) Primordial Game. The time before the Avatar. How did we get from manipulating pure matter and energy, to the point where you could rewrite someone's genetic code with a touch (as Aang did in the final episode), to the relatively unimpressive point of mankind needing to be taught how to throw rocks by Badger Moles? Something had to have happened. It's fertile ground for an awesome story.

Orzel
2010-09-03, 05:15 PM
I believe bending ability is a mixture of genetics and spiritualism. One's spirit determines whether a person can bend and which element. But I believe your generics determines how likely your personality and spirit match your element in order to unlock your bending ability. Sokka can't bend because he has no belief/trust in the unseen, the spiritual, and emotions. He is this way because he has the same genes and personality as his father.

All Air Nomads are Airbenders. This because they share many of the pools of genes, and they are very spiritual. Any non-bender genes have been weeded out or completely dominated by very strong airbender genes. No airbender has a personality that would halt his bending abilities either due to strong monastic teaching.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-03, 07:25 PM
Nothing we can do, really, since he's been reading...
*coughs* ...Jumping to conclusions much? Uh, I have been browsing the various wikis in any case, so while I appreciate the thought, I guess most major spoilers are unavoidable at this point.

Also, Word of God has it that Sokka did have Bending potential, but never developed it. Hence, the Bending attribute, but no techniques. :P

The biggest problem with this character sheet, however, is there's nothing to represent just how inexplicably attractive Sokka is. The majority of recurring female characters have explicitly stated they were attracted to Sokka, and its been implied at least a little bit for every single one of them. Not to mention, he's the only character in the history of the Nickelodeon channel to have gotten laid mid-show.

I think that this is what his player traded bending for.
Great Scott, you're right. Just caught up on the 4 episodes after Bitter Work. Scary Avatar is scary, but not as frightening as Sokka's apparently magnetic effect on the opposite sex. (Even Toph, who has nothing to go on but vibrations.)

I'll probably reply more tomorrow, but I'll just say those ideas on 'origins of Bending' sound very cool.

Xefas
2010-09-03, 11:08 PM
I won't have internet for the next few days, so no input from me for that time.

Britter
2010-09-04, 12:10 PM
If you are using Mouse Guard as a base, just represent Sokka's appeal to women with a trait, something like "Actually, he's kind of cute" or a similar thing. Done and done.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-05, 08:17 AM
However, in the time that The Last Airbender takes place in, there seems to be heavy evidence that bending is not a spiritual or purely knowledge-based phenomenon. It appears to have a heavy genetic component. For instance, all members of the Fire Nation's Royal Family are Firebenders (very powerful firebenders at that - every single one of them). If bending potential were non-genetic, this would have to be a situation of ridiculous coincidence.
It's possible we're looking at a case of Lamarckian Inheritance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism) here, where the degree to which a person trains themselves in Bending feeds into the 'talent' of their offspring. (Heck, it could be something as simple as acclimatisation in the womb.)

I believe bending ability is a mixture of genetics and spiritualism. One's spirit determines whether a person can bend and which element. But I believe your genetics determines how likely your personality and spirit match your element in order to unlock your bending ability. Sokka can't bend because he has no belief/trust in the unseen, the spiritual, and emotions. He is this way because he has the same genes and personality as his father.
That's also possible, and probably a significant factor. That said, there do seem to be people basically unable to Bend however hard they try, and it's hard to explain the existence of prodigies like Toph and Azula if raw talent isn't a factor. (Though an interesting possibility is that some non-Benders in, say, the Earth Kingdom are actually natural Water, Air, or Fire Benders who just never get the right training.)

If you are using Mouse Guard as a base, just represent Sokka's appeal to women with a trait, something like "Actually, he's kind of cute" or a similar thing. Done and done.
Rakish Charm, perhaps? Girls-wise? :p

Samurai Jill
2010-09-05, 09:59 AM
Okay. Further ideas for combat and bending...

Basic Conflict Mechanism
What I'm suggesting here is a *slightly* expanded version of the basic MG combat system, which I think is both intuitive and abstract enough that it can applied to just about any kind of conflict.
The basic Moves would be:

Charge (trumps Stand, lowers enemy disposition, -1 disposition if beaten)
Press (trumps Evade, lowers enemy disposition, -1 disposition if beaten)
Stand (trumps Press, +2 bonus to next move and +1 disposition if not beaten)
Evade (trumps Charge, +2 bonus to next move and +1 disposition if not beaten)
Counter (works ONLY if enemy Move is known, trumped otherwise OR by Stall, lowers enemy disposition, enemy cannot defend)
Stall (trumps none, BUT permits change and +1 bonus to next move, raises disposition)

Charge means to use a powerful but somewhat reckless attack or strategem. To Press is a little more careful and precise. Stand means to take a firm position and hold it- a direct rebuttal or a skilled parry. Evade means to dodge or avoid an opponent's thrust- to change subjects or look for cover. A Counter requires anticipating your enemy's move and exploiting the weakness revealed- a shortcut or precise diagnosis. Stalling allows you time to circle warily, think and reflect, or stock up supplies.


Mastering Bending
Every technique has a Place and Time where it may (typically) be used, and other Techniques or Traits with which it is in Harmony (ForKs, basically.)

Techniques have three levels: Learning, Adept, and Mastered. Learning must be performed under the supervision and instruction of a tutor who has already mastered the technique. Each successful learning test raises the level by one, and until the technique is mastered, successful learning tests are needed to use the technique, whatever the situation.

To learn a Bending technique, you roll the appropriate Bending talent against the Power and Jing of the technique. If the technique's Jing is positive or negative, you may spend a Persona point to add an appropriate Passion to the roll. If the technique's Jing is neutral, you add your Balance dice to the roll, but your strongest Passion is added directly to the obstacle of the check.

Here's a selection of hypothetical Firebending techniques:


Courage
Place and Time: Stand or Press (Combat or Social)
Harmony: Impatient
Power and Jing: Positive 1

Dancing Tongues
Place and Time: Evade or Stall (Combat or Social)
Harmony: Deceit
Power and Jing: Negative 1

Outburst
Place and Time: Press or Charge (Combat)
Harmony: Gymnast
Power and Jing: Positive 2
Requires: Courage

Firelance
Place and Time: Charge (Combat)
Harmony: Marksman
Power and Jing: Positive 3
Requires: Outburst

Crimson Blade
Place and Time: Press (Combat)
Harmony: Melee, Dagger, Restraint
Power and Jing: Positive 3
Requires: Outburst

Forge Steel
Place and Time: Press or Stall (Craft)
Harmony: Metallurgy, Resolve
Power and Jing: Neutral 3
Requires: Outburst

Maelstrom
Place and Time: Stand (Combat)
Harmony: Melee
Power and Jing: Negative 4
Requires: Crimson Blade, Repulse

Breath of Fire
Place and Time: Press or Charge (Survival)
Harmony: Endurance
Power and Jing: Positive 4
Requires: Outburst, Bend Chi

Lightning Bolt
Place and Time: Press or Counter (Combat)
Harmony: Marksman, Confident
Power and Jing: Neutral 5
Requires: Bend Chi, Firelance


Example:
In his youth, Prince Zuko has Balance 4, Reflex 4, Bending 3, Rage 3, and wants to learn Firelance (Power 3, Positive Jing.) He spends a Persona point to add Rage to the roll, for a total of 6D, and succeeds. The success counts toward both Bending and Rage.

Later, he has Balance 3, Reflex 7, Bending 6, Rage 6, and wants to learn Lightning Bolt (Power 5, Neutral Jing.) His obstacle is 5+6 = 11, and he rolls 6+3 = 9D- not enough to have a chance at success. The failure does not count toward Rage.

Bending in Combat:
Bending techniques add their Power directly to the result rolled from Reflex in combat. In the above example, Zuko would roll 7D+3 when using Firelance. Until the technique is Mastered, he may not teach it to others, or use it without making a successful learning test.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-05, 03:57 PM
Revised and updated Sokka now available (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9282647&postcount=19) for consideration. I guess I'm going to try and come up with a hack for the chargen/lifepath system over the next few days.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-07, 08:51 AM
As promised, here's an outline of a rudimentary lifepaths system, crossed with the 20-questions game used in Mouse Guard.

THE NATIONS

EARTH KINGDOM
The character of Earth is: Stubborn, Impassive, Strong, Sincere, Tolerant, Oppressive, Traditional, Industrious, and Geography-wise.

The Earth Kingdom's vocations include: Beureaucrat, Hunter, Tenant, Tradesman, Domestic, Performer, Shopkeeper, Aristocrat, Merchant, Scholar, Physician, Secret Service, Martial Artist, Soldier, Sailor and Ruffian.

If the player wishes, characters from the Earth Kingdom may change vocation after apprenticeship twice, rather than just once. This requires taking an extra Master.


FIRE NATION
The character of Fire is: Angry, Brave, Proud, Industrious, Ambitious, Competitive, Ruthless, Hopeful and Honour-wise.

The Earth Kingdom's vocations include: Engineer, Monk, Tenant, Tradesman, Domestic, Performer, Shopkeeper, Aristocrat, Merchant, Scholar, Physician, Secret Service, Martial Artist, Soldier, Sailor and Ruffian.

If the player wishes, characters from the Fire Nation may be promoted twice in their vocation after apprenticeship, rather than just once. This requires taking an extra Rival.


AIR NOMADS
The character of Air is: Spontaneous, Curious, Fearful, Hopeful, Humourous, Spiritual, Evasive, Irresponsible and Weather-wise.

The Air Nomads' vocations include: Tenant, Tradesman, Monk, Healer, Domestic and Performer.

All Air Nomads gain 2 ranks in Bending and Mastery of the Swift Wind technique. They gain the Pacifist and Bison-wise traits, and may choose 2 techniques from: The Spirit World, Ride, Gymnast, Climbing, Running or Flight. You may not learn Explosives, Armour Use, any weapon technique but Staff, or take the following traits: Poor, Wealthy, Ambitious or Politics-wise.


WATER TRIBES
The character of Water is: Compassionate, Grieving, Calm, Perceptive, Selfless, Lazy, Traditional, Adaptable and Lover-wise.

The Water Tribes' vocations include: Hunter, Healer, Tradesman, Domestic, Sailor, Soldier and Chieftain. Northern Water Tribe characters may also choose the vocations of Martial Artist, Performer and Shopkeeper.

All Water Tribe members are at least Adept in the following techniques: Swim and Sailing. They may also choose 1 technique from: The Spirit World, Hunting, Medicine, or Fishing. You may not learn Explosives, Mining, Armour Use, or Ceramics. Water Tribe members must have at least one Friend.


VOCATIONS

Each vocation lists associated techniques on the first line, and associated traits or wises on the second. When choosing a vocation, you must take the first technique and trait (or wise) associated with each, if you do not have them already.


Hunter: | Hunting, Tracking, Traps, Spear, Throwing, Tanner, Ride
| Beast-wise, Geography-wise, Endurance, Patient
Ruffian: | Any weapon, Intimidation
| Ruthless, Town-wise, Poor, Bitter, Coward, Unkempt, Disreputable
Tenant: | Hard Labour, Mining, Farming, Fishing
| Herb-wise, Beast-wise, Earth-wise, Building, Poor, Humble, Strong
Tradesman: | Hard Labour, Bargain, Ceramics, Carpenter, Weaver, Mason, Metallurgy, Explosives
| Respected, Skilled, Connected
Domestic: | Hard Labour, Cookery, Flattery, Medicines, Tailor
| Poor, Child-wise, Gossip, Soft Spot, Stern
Performer: | Any instrument, Disguise, Poetry, Taunt
| Geography-wise, History-wise, Poor, Charismatic, Disreputable
Shopkeeper: | Bargain, Suasion, Perfumes, Tea-making, Alchemy, Tailor, Cookery
| Perceptive, Any wise
Engineer: | Engineering, Metallurgy, Bending** (Earth or Fire only), Architect, Explosives, Account
| Meticulous, Inventive, Ambitious
Sailor: | Sailing, Any weapon, Bending** (Air or Water only)
| Weather-wise, Geography-wise, Competitive, Crude, Tough, Bold, Savvy
Soldier: | Any weapon, Bending**, Marksman, Explosives, Melee, Ride, Armour Use, Tactics
| Tough, Town-wise, Honour-wise, Obedient, Corrupt
Secret Service: | Disguise, Perceptive, Town-wise, Intimidation
| Loyal, Torture-wise, Charismatic, Corrupt, Ambitious
Martial Artist: | Empty Hand, Bending**, Any weapon, Anatomy and Chakra, Disguise, Stealth, Gymnast
| Loyal, Perceptive
Healer: | Medicines, Anatomy and Chakra, Aphorisms,
| Benign, Solitary, The Spirit World, Child-wise
Monk: | Bending**, Staff, Gymnast, Empty Hand, Statement, Aphorisms
| The Spirit World, Stern, Patient, Respected
Physician: | Medicines, Anatomy and Chakra, Alchemy, Statement
| Herb-wise, Earth-wise, Respected, Curious, Calm
Scholar: | Astrology, Poetry, Architect, Artist, Account
| Any Wise, The Spirit World, Curious, Meticulous, Absent-minded, Unkempt
Merchant: | Bargain, Accounting, Acumen
| Geography-wise, Politics-wise, Perceptive, Wealthy, Portly, Connected
Bureaucrat: | Etiquette, Flattery, Deceit, Account
| Obedient, Corrupt, Ambitious, Petty, Politics-wise
Aristocrat*: | Etiquette, Artist, Poetry, Perfumes, Tea-making, Tactics, Sword
| Politics-wise, Arrogant, Wealthy, Delicate, Polite, Connected
Chieftain: | Suasion, Etiquette, Bargain, Statement, Affirmation
| Politics-wise, Bored, Solitary, Stoic, Ruthless, Charismatic

* You may only become an Aristocrat through birth or marriage. Aristocrats may only take up the Soldier, Sailor, Martial Artist, Scholar or Engineer vocations.
** If taken, raises Bending level by 1. This is not considered a technique in itself. You must learn an appropriate Bending technique to gain this benefit.

You can always change to a vocation appropriate to your Nation of birth that has at least 1 technique in common with your previous knowledge. However, sometimes drastic experiences can shunt you into another life entirely. See 'Questions for the players, below.'


QUESTIONS FOR THE PLAYERS -Note: Haven't worked out the full effects of these yet...

0. General concept- what kind of character do you want to play? What is their specialty within the group? What motivates them to work together?

1. Into which Nation were you born?
2. Did you have Bending potential?
3. Who were your parents? What was their vocation? Where did they live?
4. Which parent did you take after most?
5. What vocation were you apprenticed to? Who was your Master?

6. After apprenticeship, were you promoted within your vocation, or did you change to another vocation?
7. Did you have a sustained romantic interest? Did they come from a different town or even another Nation?
8. Did you marry? Were you betrothed? Was it to the same person?
9. Have you ever travelled widely and met peacefully with people from other towns and Nations?
10. Did you ever lose a loved one to, or flee your homeland because of, war, famine, or pestilence? What was the cause?
11. Have you ever been exiled or disgraced over a personal feud, break with tradition, crime committed or significant failure?
12. Have you ever suffered the untimely death, betrayal of, or falling out with a Friend, Kindred, or Master?
13. Have you ever been forced to hide your identity or live as an outlaw?

14. How did you first learn to fight?
* -professional vocation
* -ravages of war, needed for self-defence
* -tournaments and competitions
* -pursuit of self-perfection
* -taught by friend or learnt as hobby
* -recognised Bending potential

15. How do you primarily relate to others?
* -you demand respect. (Intimidation, Confidence, Accusation, Taunt)
* -you search for the truth. (Interrogate, Accusation, Acumen, Statement)
* -you see things from their perspective. (Deceit, Affirmation, Suasion, Acumen)
* -you negotiate for what you want. (Bargain, Suasion, Confidence, Flattery)
* -you try to relax and enjoy yourself. (Levity, Taunt, Flattery, Aphorisms)

16. How do you manage to slip about unnoticed? (Disguise, Stealth, Hiding, rely on Friends?)
17. How are you skilled with your hands or mind?
18. What have you gained life experience (wises) with?
19. How do you like to relax and have fun?

Samurai Jill
2010-09-07, 09:08 AM
Oh- a thought just occurred to me. It's possible you could use the Avatars themselves as the basis for a 'central organisation' of some kind- at least during the times of Avatars Yangchen, Kuruk, or Kyoshi. (Well, at least during Kuruk's later years or Yangchen's youth- periods entirely devoid of major conflict tend to be tough material for action-packed stories.) However powerful the Avatar may be, they can't be everywhere at once.

It's not hard to imagine him or her dispatching a semi-formal gathering of PCs on missions that (A) require a more delicate touch than the raw power of an Avatar can bring to bear, (B) demand a better understanding of local problems, (C) aim simply to gather information or (D) support larger Goals from which the Avatar can't afford to be distracted at the time.

The drawback to this approach is that- unless a PC plays the Avatar themselves- the players will never be the primary movers and shakers of world events. If any local conflict gets seriously out of hand, the Avatar will eventually swoop in to kick ass. Instead, tension revolves around the constant tension between their almost limitless power and the tendency of that power to corrupt even their best intentions. With friends and kindred on the opposite side, you may not want the Avatar to intervene. (In addition, some tweaks to Vocations might be in order, given that scientific knowledge is probably less advanced.)


The other prospective 'higher authorities' that are likely to organise a 'quest' of some variety are the various political organisations of the world- the heads of government, Dai Li, royal families or governing councils, possibly the Kyoshi Warriors, etc. This would work best during the time of Avatar Roku (who never got around to large-scale intervention) and the interregnum before Aang re-appeared. The drawback to this approach is that the history is more detailed and the Air Nomads go extinct about halfway. But, if the group is okay with the idea, you could just play out an alternative history that takes a different course entirely.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-08, 07:20 AM
So... are the folks familiar with Mouse Guard/BW okay with this so far? I can switch back to the old Attack/Defend/Feint/Maneuver system pretty easily, but I don't want to charge ahead with lists of techniques prematurely. The lifepath system could probably be pared down significantly if I thought about it some. I'm afraid I tend to err on the side of complexity...

On the subject of Nature- the use of Passions here is a little more similar to the emotional attributes used in BW 'classic'. In Mouse Guard, the typical expectation is that Nature starts high-ish and goes down over time, whereas in BW, the typical expectation is that Elvish Grief or Orcish Hate will start low-ish and advance over time in a self-destructive spiral. And like these, Passions can occasionally compel the character to act in a particular way- something like Steel checks for surprise or the "I must have it!" rule for Dwarven Greed.

The other twist that might be interesting to include is that you can drive down one Passion by raising another. I mean, I reckon you could see this in several cases over the course of the series.

Toph: Stubborn vs. Trust/Dependant
Zuko: Rage vs. Hopeful/Pleasure
Aang: Fear vs. Strength/Responsible
Ihro: Compassion/Strength vs. Grieving
Katara: Compassion vs. Rage

The difficulty here might be assigning concrete examples of 'obstacles' for a given Passion, since there's likely to be a lot of overlap, and reactions can be very subjective. A perceived threat could trigger anger, fear, or grief, witnessing suffering could trigger either grief, anger or compassion (Ihro's reaction to the death of Lu-ten being a prime example.) ...On the other hand, maybe that's a good thing.

Also, if Balance represents the character's overall self-control and assurance, you could include a system where you take 'Balance damage' from isolation, grief, betrayal or other emotional duress resulting from emotional investment in others, to cover situations like Azula's insanity, Aang's unwilling slips into the Avatar State, Zuko's shame, etc.

Xefas
2010-09-08, 11:20 AM
So... are the folks familiar with Mouse Guard/BW okay with this so far?

Sorry, I've been hesitating responding because there's quite a lot to respond to.

I suppose, first of all, I still don't think you need separate moves or techniques for bending combat. Unlike, say, a Shounen Fighting Anime, where a secret or powerful technique is focused on specifically because of how powerful it is, or how useful it will be in combat for a character, it seems to me that techniques came in two varieties in Avatar. The first, and more often used one - the awesome secret technique learned off camera during downtime that no one calls attention to (see: Everything Katara learned other than Bloodbending). The second, is the awesome secret technique that is really a backdrop for drama and character development. Zuko learning Lightning wasn't about Zuko learning Lightning. It was about Zuko slowly coming to terms with his anger and shame, and an opportunity to learn more about the 'Four Nations As One' philosophy; an attempt by Iroh to groom him to be a good leader. When Zuko instead learned how to redirect lightning, it was both a poignant statement about him, a way of connecting with his uncle, and a set-up for his sacrifice at the end of the show. It wasn't ever about the technique itself. Katara learning Bloodbending was similar - it wasn't about the Bloodbending. It was foreshadowing to the choice that Katara would later have to make, and gave her a warning of what she might become (Both Waterbenders from the Southern Water Tribe, both were wronged by the Fire Nation, both became consumed by revenge, one is handed this secret technique and becomes a monster, the other is handed this secret technique...and what will she become? The answer is 'almost a monster').


The other twist that might be interesting to include is that you can drive down one Passion by raising another. I mean, I reckon you could see this in several cases over the course of the series.

Toph: Stubborn vs. Trust/Dependant
Zuko: Rage vs. Hopeful/Pleasure
Aang: Fear vs. Strength/Responsible
Ihro: Compassion/Strength vs. Grieving
Katara: Compassion vs. Rage

We already kind of have this, though. Toph could easily have the Belief "I carry my own weight, and don't need anything from anyone" and the Goal "I want to make (keep my) friends". That's her struggle between Stubborn and Trust. Aang could easily have the Instinct "Run away if things get too hard" and the Belief "I am the Avatar, therefore I am responsible for the safety of the entire world". Katara could have "I will never ever turn my back on people who need me" as an...Instinct? And "Get revenge on the Fire Nation for ruining my nation and killing my mother" as a Goal. Honestly, I can't think of many good examples of Zuko or Iroh. Iroh doesn't grieve all that much. That's not really his main struggle. And I wouldn't say Zuko is Rage vs Hope. It seems to me more a "Rage vs Self Esteem", although that sounds kind of awkward.

The Lifepath system you drew up is awesome. I dunno if its necessary, but it's well done. I'm of the opinion that as few things as possible should be changed from the original system. But that's just me. This is your project, so far be it for me to quash something that you really like. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm right.

Holocron Coder
2010-09-08, 02:32 PM
Can't say myself, since I don't own it, but what features did you find appealing?

Sorry for never getting back and replying, but I've had a busy week.. haha.

But it looks like you have other ideas well in hand, so I'll just leave my statement :smallsmile:

Samurai Jill
2010-09-09, 12:23 PM
...But that's just me. This is your project, so far be it for me to quash something that you really like. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm right.
Well, ultimately I do want other people to playtest this, so... I mean, if you don't particularly want an emphasis on lifepaths, craft skills, or bending techniques, then I'm not certain there's really a whole pile to add, here.

I will say, though, that I tend to think of specific techniques as analagous to choosing different weapons in combat- it's not that the conflict is about axe vs. shield vs. bow- it's about the larger stakes you negotiated beforehand- but it helps to add a dash of tactical interest/verisimilitude in a way that's mostly harmless. Otherwise everyone would fight- or Bend- in essentially the same way.

Mouse Guard isn't about economic simulation, but it still has over 20 skills devoted solely to crafting-related pursuits. I'm sure the selection could be pared down a bit, but is it, by comparison, really excessive to imagine, say... Three? ...combat-related Bending techniques per discipline? With luck, they could be described in a way that's more improvisational, but you probably need to distinguish tuition (and hence the search for new Masters) from practice-based advancement.

The problem is that certain things about the system basically have to be changed. Mouse Nature is not going to work because Benders aren't Mice. Fire's nature doesn't make it's Benders cringe and hide and flee, it makes them charge and beat their chests and look for trouble. You need a fundamentally different mechanism to make that dramatically interesting.

I mean, what level of complexity would you be comfortable with, if and when you felt inclined to get some playtesters together? How much new material would they put up with? I'd genuinely like to know, because that gives me a useful 'budget' to work within.

Sorry for never getting back and replying, but I've had a busy week.. haha.

But it looks like you have other ideas well in hand, so I'll just leave my statement :smallsmile:
Thanks :)

Xefas
2010-09-09, 12:57 PM
I mean, what level of complexity would you be comfortable with, if and when you felt inclined to get some playtesters together? How much new material would they put up with? I'd genuinely like to know, because that gives me a useful 'budget' to work within.

Well, here's what I think needs changing from Mouse Guard's base mechanics first and foremost, before we add anything additional.

-Inapplicable skills and traits: Stuff like "Insectrist" and "Long Tail" don't seem to have that clear of an analogue (Whereas something like "Big Paw" just becomes "Big Hands"). They should be altered or cut.

-Weapons: In Mouse Guard, wielding a weapon is just a straight increase over bare-handed, but in Avatar, being bare-handed is the norm for bending combat. This needs change. (Although, I think we may have already solved this with your idea of adding +1D to Attack/Defend/Feint/Maneuver for Fire/Earth/Air/Water bending in combat)

-Nature: As you pointed out, Mouse Nature isn't appropriate. The fact is that the Nature mechanic, itself, simulates the "Ordinary Shmuck struggles to become a Hero" theme: it gives you an extra mechanical kick to catapult you from the mundane to the heroic. Avatar characters tend to already be heroic, and the story is about them being heroic while also dealing with their own personal problems (which is better simulated by beliefs/goals/instincts than Nature). So perhaps a revamp of Beliefs/Goals/Instincts? Like, you need to have a Cultural Belief, Goal, and Instinct, a Personal Belief, Goal, and Instinct, and a Bender/Non-Bender Related Belief, Goal, and Instinct. And perhaps do the Burning Wheel thing and fuse Beliefs/Goals.

A shot at doing Sokka this way:
Cultural
Belief: A man's worth is proven on the battlefield; I must prove my worth as a warrior to my father and my tribe.
Instinct: Always take the side of a Water Tribe member before anyone else

Personal
Belief: Family is worth doing anything to protect; I must make sure Aang and Katara do not come to harm.
Instinct: Assume a woman is weak and needs protecting

Bending
Belief: Bending is so much more amazing than anything I can do; I must prove to myself and everyone around me that I'm still useful
Instinct: Always take cover when benders start bending

-Artha: By extension of the previous point, the Persona and Fate point stuff needs to be revamped.

-Creatures: We needs statblocks for Avatar creatures and characters.

-Setting Information: Even if it requires making some educated assumptions here and there, it would be nice to have some defined information about each nation, some important cities, a vague timeline perhaps, some speculation about spiritual mumbo jumbo, etc.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-09, 01:28 PM
Well, here's what I think needs changing from Mouse Guard's base mechanics first and foremost, before we add anything additional.

-Inapplicable skills and traits: Stuff like "Insectrist" and "Long Tail" don't seem to have that clear of an analogue (Whereas something like "Big Paw" just becomes "Big Hands"). They should be altered or cut.

-Weapons: In Mouse Guard, wielding a weapon is just a straight increase over bare-handed, but in Avatar, being bare-handed is the norm for bending combat. This needs change. (Although, I think we may have already solved this with your idea of adding +1D to Attack/Defend/Feint/Maneuver for Fire/Earth/Air/Water bending in combat)
Well, sure. That's pretty trivial, though. Realm Guard: Rangers of the North (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?9572-Realm-Guard-Rangers-of-the-North-%28v1-6%29) might be an interesting comparison point, actually.

-Nature: As you pointed out, Mouse Nature isn't appropriate. The fact is that the Nature mechanic, itself, simulates the "Ordinary Shmuck struggles to become a Hero" theme: it gives you an extra mechanical kick to catapult you from the mundane to the heroic. Avatar characters tend to already be heroic, and the story is about them being heroic while also dealing with their own personal problems (which is better simulated by beliefs/goals/instincts than Nature). So perhaps a revamp of Beliefs/Goals/Instincts? Like, you need to have a Cultural Belief, Goal, and Instinct, a Personal Belief, Goal, and Instinct, and a Bender/Non-Bender Related Belief, Goal, and Instinct. And perhaps do the Burning Wheel thing and fuse Beliefs/Goals.
I agree that under normal circumstances you could model character growth through BITs, but I'd still like some way to rate relevant emotions in a way that gives numeric bonuses to Bending. That definitely seems to happen over the show.

Your examples seem a great fit for Sokka, but I'm afraid getting some folks to think up even 3 good Beliefs can be like pulling teeth, leave alone 6 of 'em...

A possible alternative to having Rage/Stubborn/Free/Compassion etc. as independant metrics is to base them off the number of traits the characters can maintain that match the 'nature descriptor' for a given element. e.g, if you can remain Hopeful, Determined, Bold, and Proud, you can spend Persona points to get a +4 bonus to Firebending.

-Artha: By extension of the previous point, the Persona and Fate point stuff needs to be revamped.
Not neccesarily- I reckon the basic mechanisms for earning artha remain perfectly valid, it's just tapping Nature that has to be revamped.

-Creatures: We needs statblocks for Avatar creatures and characters.
...I've actually been contemplating the idea of creating a 'creature burner' that lets you mix-n-match qualities from any two random beasties you like. I haven't been been able to find a truly comprehensive bestiary on the web.

Katara: The King is throwing a party at the palace tonight for his pet bear.
Aang: Don't you mean platypus bear?
Katara: No, it just says, 'bear'.
Sokka: Certainly you mean his pet skunk bear?
Toph: Or his armadillo bear?
Aang: Gopher bear?
Katara: Just... 'bear'.
(short pause)
Toph: ...This place is weird.

As regards the characters... yeah, we can probably put together some overall stat blocks with regard to basic competencies, and the like. They might have to be revised later, natch.

-Setting Information: Even if it requires making some educated assumptions here and there, it would be nice to have some defined information about each nation, some important cities, a vague timeline perhaps, some speculation about spiritual mumbo jumbo, etc.
Ooh, speaking of which, just saw the second episode with Guru Pathik...

I think some definite mission samples might be more immediately useful. Are we talking about entirely new characters here, or using existing ones?

Xefas
2010-09-09, 09:13 PM
Well, sure. That's pretty trivial, though. Realm Guard: Rangers of the North (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?9572-Realm-Guard-Rangers-of-the-North-%28v1-6%29) might be an interesting comparison point, actually.

Realm Guard looks pretty cool. Kinda wish they'd put some more support for playing other characters in LotRs besides the Dunedain, but I still have to give them props.

And yes, I know it's trivial, but it still needs doing. Although, to make it less trivial and possibly more interesting, we could add a whole list of new Avatar-ish traits, and take a few of the more Mousy or only-interesting-when-you're-playing-a-tiny-woodland-creature traits out.


I agree that under normal circumstances you could model character growth through BITs, but I'd still like some way to rate relevant emotions in a way that gives numeric bonuses to Bending. That definitely seems to happen over the show.

A possible alternative to having Rage/Stubborn/Free/Compassion etc. as independant metrics is to base them off the number of traits the characters can maintain that match the 'nature descriptor' for a given element. e.g, if you can remain Hopeful, Determined, Bold, and Proud, you can spend Persona points to get a +4 bonus to Firebending.

What about something like for every point of Bending Skill you have, you must have a corresponding Trait Level from a pre-constructed list of emotion-related Traits. You can rearrange the traits you've chosen, but during that time, you have to break the traits from you as normal, your bending goes down, and then you have to build new traits up again, and your bending returns to normal. Then have some sort of threshold like "If you don't use at least 50% of your traits to gain artha during an episode, your bending starts burning out". So, i.e., Zuko has Firebending 5, and the L2 Rage, L2 Determined, and L1 Pride traits. He trains Firebending to 6, and acquires L3 Rage in the process. Because, during one episode, he doesn't use his L3 Rage (which constitutes 50% of his Firebending traits), his Firebending goes down to 3 for the next episode. He decides that he doesn't want to use Rage as his source of Firebending anymore, so he goes another episode without L3 Rage, reducing his Firebending to 0, and then a third episode, followed by a stirring emotional monologue, and breaks himself of Rage altogether, instead replacing it with L3 Hope (or whatever). In the next episode, he is back to Firebending 3, and the next he is back to his full 6.

(Just a rough idea)


Your examples seem a great fit for Sokka, but I'm afraid getting some folks to think up even 3 good Beliefs can be like pulling teeth, leave alone 6 of 'em...

What I find helps, and we could institute this as a rule, is having the player just start with one Belief, and work out the rest in play. So, for instance, have the player choose either Culture, Bending, or Personal to flesh out during character generation. And then, at any point in the next 2 episodes, they can add on any of their other Beliefs or Instincts, but they must have at least one other category finished by the end of the third episode. By the end of the 5th episode, they should have all six of their Beliefs/Instincts done.

That way, character generation is faster, and the character can become more fleshed out in response to the way the game is going, so they'll organically develop to fit the tone. At least, that's the intent.


I think some definite mission samples might be more immediately useful. Are we talking about entirely new characters here, or using existing ones?

I figure we could lay down the bones of the setting using only canon characters and things that are explicitly stated to be factual in the canon. And then, extrapolate a little bit on things that aren't as fleshed out (maybe a little bit on Airbender culture?) with a big [Not Canon] sign overhead. Some things can just be an educated guess, like applying some of the tenets of Buddhism to features of Airbender culture.

As for mission samples...I suppose I could try to just take an episode and write it in 'mission' (I've been saying 'episode') style. It'd probably take a really long time to relate each individual thing to a player's check, or conflict or skill roll or whatever, but it could be done (and would be fun to do). If that's what you meant, that is.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-10, 11:16 AM
Realm Guard looks pretty cool. Kinda wish they'd put some more support for playing other characters in LotRs besides the Dunedain, but I still have to give them props.

And yes, I know it's trivial, but it still needs doing. Although, to make it less trivial and possibly more interesting, we could add a whole list of new Avatar-ish traits, and take a few of the more Mousy or only-interesting-when-you're-playing-a-tiny-woodland-creature traits out.
What I mean is that I've already done that, more or less, when coming up with the vocations/chargen system. I can write out the traits/techniques/wises as big lists if you prefer, but I'm not sure they need a great deal of felshing-out (given that MG encourages you to make up your own self-descriptive traits and wises anyways.)

Where do we stand on chargen, anyways? Do you want to keep the vocations system, or try to blend it into the standard Q&A session?

What about something like for every point of Bending Skill you have, you must have a corresponding Trait Level from a pre-constructed list of emotion-related Traits...
(Just a rough idea)
The danger I see in tying performance directly to traits, and their level, is that it may actually punish character development, rather than rewarding it. e.g, "Uh-oh, I'd better stay Ruthless or I'll lose 2 points from my Bending", as opposed to "Okay, I can switch from Ruthless to Honour-wise, keep the same emergency bonus, and earn Moldbreaker artha in the process. Cool."

That said, it could be argued that the show gives some support to the 'punishment' idea- when Zuko released Appa it made him physically ill, and joining Aang's party really nerfed his Bending, since he was so 100% committed to hunting the Avatar.

What I find helps, and we could institute this as a rule, is having the player just start with one Belief, and work out the rest in play... ...That way, character generation is faster, and the character can become more fleshed out in response to the way the game is going, so they'll organically develop to fit the tone. At least, that's the intent.
Hmmm. It could work.

I figure we could lay down the bones of the setting using only canon characters and things that are explicitly stated to be factual in the canon. And then, extrapolate a little bit on things that aren't as fleshed out (maybe a little bit on Airbender culture?) with a big [Not Canon] sign overhead. Some things can just be an educated guess, like applying some of the tenets of Buddhism to features of Airbender culture.
Sure. Feel free to go ahead. A compilation of known beasties might be useful too.

As for mission samples...I suppose I could try to just take an episode and write it in 'mission' (I've been saying 'episode') style. It'd probably take a really long time to relate each individual thing to a player's check, or conflict or skill roll or whatever, but it could be done (and would be fun to do). If that's what you meant, that is.
It doesn't neccesarily need to be an existing episode, just a developed example of some fleshed-out characters with coherent reasons to work together, and how they could handle a couple of sample conflicts.

I'm still a little leery about leaving out bending techniques entirely, even if we do adapt the Attack/Defend/Feint/Maneuver system for the purpose...

Samurai Jill
2010-09-11, 06:12 AM
Well, I'll try to put together a preliminary list of the various 'known' critters, based on what I can dredge off the web and my own observations. Any info I can find on the web has missed a couple, as far as I can tell, and I haven't even seen all the episodes yet, but I guess it's better than nothing...

An interesting possibility here would be to link particular elements' emotional agendas to different aspects of the personality model: e.g, Firebending would be boosted by pursuing/fulfilling Goals, Waterbending by siding with Friends and Masters (or against Rivals?), Airbending by changing Beliefs/Instincts, and Earthbending by not changing them. Just a thought.

Also, some rough guidelines for 'ambient bonuses' to Bending might be in order. e.g, Waterbending is most effective near large bodies of water to manipulate, and/or during the full moon, Airbending is weaker deep underground, Firebending is (slightly) stronger by day and weaker in intense cold, and then there are the seasons, solstices, and equinoxes to consider...

Samurai Jill
2010-09-11, 01:26 PM
Ah, wait a second- this list looks reasonably complete. There's also a rough historical timeline onsite (though there's definitely something screwy about the dates associated with Kuruk.)

http://www.avatarspiritmedia.net/creatures.php

Xefas
2010-09-12, 10:19 PM
Where do we stand on chargen, anyways? Do you want to keep the vocations system, or try to blend it into the standard Q&A session?

I'm not really sure. I love the idea of the kind of Q&A session Mouse Guard does, but on the other hand, your vocations system is very good as well. I would say lets stick with vocations until we find a problem with it.


The danger I see in tying performance directly to traits, and their level, is that it may actually punish character development, rather than rewarding it. e.g, "Uh-oh, I'd better stay Ruthless or I'll lose 2 points from my Bending", as opposed to "Okay, I can switch from Ruthless to Honour-wise, keep the same emergency bonus, and earn Moldbreaker artha in the process. Cool."

That said, it could be argued that the show gives some support to the 'punishment' idea- when Zuko released Appa it made him physically ill, and joining Aang's party really nerfed his Bending, since he was so 100% committed to hunting the Avatar.

It's only 'punishing' character development in the same way that Burning Wheel rewarding you for making the situation more dramatic (i.e. worse) for the party in compliance with roleplaying one of your traits is 'punishing' character development.

Rearranging your whole world-view should not be easy, it should not be pretty, and no one should want to do it. And then you do, and it's awesome. Kind of like pulling a sword on the king because you have the Instinct "I always pull my sword when I feel uncomfortable", should not be something anyone wants to do, but then you do, and you get artha, and awesome **** happens.

Part of the Burning Wheel motto, as I understand it, is "Losing should be fun".
The entire motto, as I understand it, being "Balance is stupid, flavor and mechanics should be the same thing, losing should be fun, and Fight For What You Believe In!" (i.e. the exact opposite of everything D&D stands for)


It doesn't neccesarily need to be an existing episode, just a developed example of some fleshed-out characters with coherent reasons to work together, and how they could handle a couple of sample conflicts.

Mmkay, I'll work a bit on it.


An interesting possibility here would be to link particular elements' emotional agendas to different aspects of the personality model: e.g, Firebending would be boosted by pursuing/fulfilling Goals, Waterbending by siding with Friends and Masters (or against Rivals?), Airbending by changing Beliefs/Instincts, and Earthbending by not changing them. Just a thought.

Also, some rough guidelines for 'ambient bonuses' to Bending might be in order. e.g, Waterbending is most effective near large bodies of water to manipulate, and/or during the full moon, Airbending is weaker deep underground, Firebending is (slightly) stronger by day and weaker in intense cold, and then there are the seasons, solstices, and equinoxes to consider...

I love both of these things. I'll think on them a bit.


(though there's definitely something screwy about the dates associated with Kuruk.)

Yeeeah...I doubt Kuruk lived to be 500+.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-14, 02:00 PM
I'm not really sure. I love the idea of the kind of Q&A session Mouse Guard does, but on the other hand, your vocations system is very good as well. I would say lets stick with vocations until we find a problem with it.
Fair enough. I will see what I can do to slim it down anyways.

It's only 'punishing' character development in the same way that Burning Wheel rewarding you for making the situation more dramatic (i.e. worse) for the party in compliance with roleplaying one of your traits is 'punishing' character development.
I didn't mean to be dismissive, and I understand your point- that drama involves obliging the character to choose between things they value, in a way that might be considered a 'lose-lose situation'. So that, offhand, "choose between your (X+Bending) and your Y" could be a perfectly legitimate 'Bang' for the character. However, in practice I find that systems which directly tie character-effectiveness to sticking with a particular personality-model tend to encourage stereotyped behaviour, because the "price" you paid for a single decision goes on hurting you in all subsequent conflicts. (e.g, Paladins and falling mechanics.) This is particularly true if and when you'd like members of a party to be (approximately) balanced.

I guess you can level the charge against my own suggestions (albeit to a milder degree,) but I *was* hoping to offset this by providing advanced techniques with different Jings...

On the subject of techniques, though- on reflection, you may have a point. There's at least 40 listed for Waterbending (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Waterbending) alone, and I doubt anyone wants to go into that much detail. It's possible we could just describe different aspects of each Bending discipline in a way similar to how weapons are outlined (e.g, Deadly, Taxing and Poor Defence for Fire, or Blown Away, Gentle and Evasive for Air.) However, we still need some method for distinguishing tuition from practice-based advancement.

Rearranging your whole world-view should not be easy, it should not be pretty, and no one should want to do it. And then you do, and it's awesome. Kind of like pulling a sword on the king because you have the Instinct "I always pull my sword when I feel uncomfortable", should not be something anyone wants to do, but then you do, and you get artha, and awesome **** happens.

Part of the Burning Wheel motto, as I understand it, is "Losing should be fun".
The entire motto, as I understand it, being "Balance is stupid, flavor and mechanics should be the same thing, losing should be fun, and Fight For What You Believe In!" (i.e. the exact opposite of everything D&D stands for)
Well, it's not that BW has anything against Balance per se, it's just that, beyond a certain point, pursuing Balance comes at the expense of other things that it considers more important. (Even it has some rough recommendations about giving Orcs an extra lifepath or two to round 'em out, for example.)

The other point I'd make about the BW system is that it is deceptively attentive to balance in certain respects: The lifepath system makes it easy to create characters that are superficially screwed over by their own traits (including the 'paying to suck' rule,) but the trick is that you only earn Artha for expressing traits when they're inconvenient. Consequently, the most 'harmful' traits are the easiest to milk!

I'm going to be a little busy for the next week, so my posts will be less regular. No rush, in any case...

Samurai Jill
2010-09-15, 03:23 PM
Well, for what it's worth, here are the descriptors I thought might be applied. Again, they might need some trimming down, but it should at least be suggestive. I'll see if I can come with some creature-specific stat blocks next.

Firebending:
Searing- +1s to successful Attack or Feint IF your Goal includes killing or injuring the opponent.
Taxing- -1s from successful Defend or Maneuver, -1D to recovery from being Angry or Tired if Firebending was used in last turn.
Dangerous- +1D to all Attack, or +2D if you know the Whip, Dagger, or Marksman techniques.

Airbending:
Gentle- -1D to Attack or Feint UNLESS your Goal does NOT involve killing or injuring the opponent.
Swift- +2D to Maneuver, upon success may not disarm, but may always gain position.
Blown Away- opponents may only Defend with Bending, +1D to Attack versus Defend.

Waterbending:
Whelming- +1s to a successful Maneuver, successes in Attack may instead apply as Maneuver.
Retaliation- successes in Defend reduce opponent disposition, -2D to Feint.
Flexible- +2D bonus for inventive description (rather than just +1D.)

Earthbending:
Shield- +2D to Defend.
Waiting- -1D to Maneuver, +1D to Feint, may Defend against Feint.
Brute Force- -1D to Attack unless you are Strong, +1s to a successful Attack.

Samurai Jill
2010-09-19, 09:07 AM
Well, this is the most comprehensive bestiary listing I've been able to put together so far. I still need to research different habits, weapons, maneuvers, etc., but I guess it's a start. (These are the just the potentially dangerous critters, I've left out all the smaller animals that might show up but can't pose a significant threat to humans. Not everything listed here is hostile, though...)


Earth kingdom:

Badger-Mole (Nature 10)
Wolf Bat (Nature 4)
Bear (Nature 4)
Boar-q-pine (Nature 7)
Bull Antelope (Nature 5)
Shirshu (Nature 8)
Sabre-toothed Mooselion (Nature 7)
Rabbaroo (Nature 5)

Pygmy Panther (Nature 3)
Purple Pentapus (Nature 1)
Platypus Bear (Nature 6)
Ostrich Horse (Nature 5)
Hog Monkey (Nature 4)
Giant Fly (Nature 3)

Fox Antelope (Nature 4)
Elephant Mandrill (Nature 6)

Si Wong Desert:

Buzzard-wasp (Nature 6)
Library Fox (Nature 3)
Giant Beetle (Nature 5)

Near Kyoshi Island/Misc(?)

Unagi (Nature 10)
Elephant Koi (Nature 6)

Lion Turtle (Nature 12)

Eelhound (Nature 4)
Cat Gator (Nature 5)

Northern water tribe:

Buffalo Deer (Nature 4)
Turtle Seal (Nature 2)

Southern water tribe:

Tiger Seal (Nature 4)
Polar Bear (Nature 4)

Air temples:

Badgerfrog (Nature 2)
Winged Lemur (Nature 3)
Air Bison (Nature 9)
Hermit Crab (Nature 1)

Fire Nation:

Anteater-sloth (Nature 2)
Sea Lion (Nature 3)
Raven Eagle (Nature 4)
Mongoose Dragon (Nature 5)
Komodo Rhino (Nature 6)
Hippo Cow (Nature 4)
Green Sea Iguana (Nature 3)
Dragon Moose (Nature 3) (beast of burden)