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Silverking
2010-08-31, 05:45 PM
I'm a newish player, and I see so many blanks in my sheet that I feel must have some point! So, If you see anything missing, or that can be made better, tell me. Opinions are fine, and I don't need background. My characters are in my sig.

Please don't hurt me.

onthetown
2010-08-31, 07:10 PM
Your bard needs his save DCs for spells, if you like having them written down. It's 10 + spell level + prime casting ability modifier (Charisma mod, in his case).

Edit: Spells per day and bonus spells, as well. PHB or SRD should have all of that in it for you.

Marnath
2010-08-31, 07:13 PM
I'm a newish player, and I see so many blanks in my sheet that I feel must have some point! So, If you see anything missing, or that can be made better, tell me. Opinions are fine, and I don't need background. My characters are in my sig.

Please don't hurt me.

We don't bite. :smallsmile:
Well, Roland does but only if you deserve it. :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2010-08-31, 07:38 PM
I don't bite. I swallow whole. Yum yum! :smallbiggrin:

zimmerwald1915
2010-08-31, 07:44 PM
I don't bite. I swallow whole. Yum yum! :smallbiggrin:
Do you then cleave afterwords, grab, and swallow whole a second time?

Ilmryn
2010-08-31, 08:34 PM
Writing down your speed might be useful. Also, your rogue should probably have a bow, or take weapon finesse.

Silverking
2010-08-31, 09:36 PM
I was planning on finesse once I leveled and got a BAB. I'm not sure about a bow though.

Also, what is his speed?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-31, 09:40 PM
I was planning on finesse once I leveled and got a BAB. I'm not sure about a bow though.

Also, what is his speed?

Normally 30 ft per round but some races can have more or less speed

Edit: Both of them should have 20 speed.

Greyfell
2010-08-31, 09:43 PM
as a halfling? unless you've got something crazy going on with feats, 20 ft a round (4 squares)

edit: NINJA'd!.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-08-31, 09:46 PM
as a halfling? unless you've got something crazy going on with feats, 20 ft a round (4 squares)

edit: NINJA'd!.

Swordsage'd actually :smalltongue:

Leon
2010-08-31, 09:55 PM
Every PC should have a ranged weapon and a back up weapon of a different damage type.

So a Light mace and a Light Crossbow.

Silverking
2010-08-31, 10:08 PM
Every PC should have a ranged weapon and a back up weapon of a different damage type.

So a Light mace and a Light Crossbow.

wait, a mace?

Ajadea
2010-08-31, 10:38 PM
For the bard. Your dagger is piercing or slashing, but if you come up against a skeleton, for example, let alone something like a lich, you may have problems. You should always be able to do bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.

grarrrg
2010-08-31, 10:38 PM
wait, a mace?

Yes, MACE! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(spray))

Leon
2010-09-01, 08:19 AM
wait, a mace?

I'd normally suggest a Morning Star but he's planning on taking Finesse at a later stage and a light mace is a finessable weapon

Haarkla
2010-09-01, 09:52 AM
I'm a newish player, and I see so many blanks in my sheet that I feel must have some point! So, If you see anything missing, or that can be made better, tell me. Opinions are fine, and I don't need background. My characters are in my sig.

Please don't hurt me.
Your rogue seems pretty good.

Your bard needs a better melee weapon, you haven't specified which perform skill you have ranks in, and while your spell selection is pretty good, I always like to take detect magic.

kaptainkrutch
2010-09-01, 03:20 PM
Rogue:
You forgot to put in your attack bonuses, it looks like. Also, I wouldn't put two different entries for your two short swords. I would just make one that says "2 Short Swords" with "-1/-1 or +1" in the total attack bonus (TAB) box. Short swords for small sized characters deal 1d4 damage, not 1d6. A sap does not do 1d6 cubed damage, the hypertext 3 was to indicate that it deals nonlethal damage. It is also 1d4 for small guys. It's TAB would be +1. Also, Tumble is really useful for rogues.

Bard:
Light crossbow should have +3 TAB, dagger is +2.

EDIT: That rogue is LOADED for a level 1 character.

Ormagoden
2010-09-01, 03:24 PM
I don't bite. I swallow whole. Yum yum! :smallbiggrin:

Thank god I have claws! Take that AC 10 BELLY FLESH!

Keld Denar
2010-09-01, 03:35 PM
I don't bite. I swallow whole. Yum yum! :smallbiggrin:

Lil Cthulu eats his followers first. Their souls make his tummy happy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHJUrcVdJk)

Meschaelene
2010-09-01, 04:03 PM
I notice that the bard does not have diplomacy, bluff or sense motive. Every bard I have ever played has all three at maximum, as bards are commonly the party's faceman. I don't know what you are planning with this character, so it's hard to say what you might drop, but this is how I would typically designate skills for a bard: Step 1, max out perform. Step 2, max out diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and concentration. Step 3, spend other skills as desired.

The rogue has diplomacy at max. On rogues, if I am going for a faceman rogue, I max out bluff and sense motive, too. If I am spending most of my skills on trap disarming and lockpicking and sneaking around and such, I might only only hit one of those "people" skills, but I think that bluff is then the most appropriate.

Silverking
2010-09-01, 05:14 PM
Rogue:
You forgot to put in your attack bonuses, it looks like. Also, I wouldn't put two different entries for your two short swords. I would just make one that says "2 Short Swords" with "-1/-1 or +1" in the total attack bonus (TAB) box. Short swords for small sized characters deal 1d4 damage, not 1d6. A sap does not do 1d6 cubed damage, the hypertext 3 was to indicate that it deals nonlethal damage. It is also 1d4 for small guys. It's TAB would be +1. Also, Tumble is really useful for rogues.

Bard:
Light crossbow should have +3 TAB, dagger is +2.

EDIT: That rogue is LOADED for a level 1 character.

Thank you for the complements, but your words made me dizzy, make them english. Or perhaps french, I need the practice.

And the reason I'm loaded is because I just got paid for killing a giant spider. What my DM didn't take into the cost was that we had to burn a poor tailor's shop down to kill it.







Your bard needs a better melee weapon, you haven't specified which perform skill you have ranks in, and while your spell selection is pretty good, I always like to take detect magic.


What weapon should I get? And my preform skill, you mean instrument? I was thinking whistling, since it doesn't need a heavy instrument, or an extra spell.

Greenish
2010-09-01, 05:18 PM
Thank you for the complements, but your words made me dizzy, make them english. Or perhaps french, I need the practice.loaded |ˈlōdid|
adjective
• informal having a lot of money; wealthy : she doesn't really have to work—they're loaded.

kaptainkrutch
2010-09-01, 07:18 PM
Thank you for the complements, but your words made me dizzy, make them english. Or perhaps french, I need the practice.

Clarify, please.

Silverking
2010-09-01, 07:55 PM
Clarify, please.

Thats what I was asking. As I said, I'm kinda inexperienced with this, and have trouble taking what you said, and turning it into something I can put on my sheet.

Swooper
2010-09-01, 08:15 PM
The bard is missing Armour Check Penalty (ACP) in the skill list. The studded leather armour gives you a -1 penalty on all skills where ACP applies, double for Swim. Apparently Mythweavers doesn't mark the ACP skills, but you can look it up on a standard D&D charactersheet (there should be one in the back of your PHB) or just the skill list in the book/SRD.

Silverking
2010-09-01, 09:39 PM
And where do I put check pen?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-01, 10:09 PM
And where do I put check pen?

I usually put the misc penalties and bonus on the misc column of the skill part:smalltongue:

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-02, 01:09 AM
I'm assuming "DMG / Monster Manual / Player's Handbook / SRD" are your available books?

Small short swords are 1d4 damage. Make sure to double check the small damage for EVERYTHING!

Good weapons for level 1 rogues, that can be finesseable later:

Light Mace (for bludgeoning)
Handaxe I mean Sickle (for slashing)
Dagger or Gauntlet (for grappling)
Shortbow (for ranged)

A good level 1 feat for a core bard isn't something that improves a skill that is already good for you... Bards in Core can't do things that well, but a self-buffing bard can make a decent melee character, or a decent archer.

Consider using a SHORTBOW rather than a light crossbow. Faster reload. Also consider point blank shot and precise shot. Also consider being a human.

Remember, Core, or at least the SRD, has more feats than are just in the Player's Handbook.

Here are some lists...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

In Core+SRD, consider a Strength based bard, with a spiked chain, and Stand Still and Power Attack. Act like a fighter, but be able to do other things too, like cast useful buffing spells. Maybe take a level or two of fighter after your first level, and then go back to bard. You will probably want to consider being a Human...

Also look at other races:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm

Also look at the Paragon classes in the SRD.

Greenish
2010-09-02, 09:27 AM
Good weapons for level 1 rogues, that can be finesseable later:

Light Mace (for bludgeoning)
Handaxe (for slashing)
Dagger or Gauntlet (for grappling)
Shortbow (for ranged)I don't think using handaxe over dagger is worth it. The -4 to hit is a bit rough for a first level character. :smallamused:

Silverking
2010-09-03, 05:28 PM
First, I have already started the games with both characters. Just so everyone knows that. Also, I have trouble understanding everything. I am stupid.

Keld Denar
2010-09-03, 05:35 PM
Little more info required than "I am stupid".

What don't you get? You've got the attention of a couple hundred people, I'm sure one of them can help you...

Just make sure you are as clear and concise about what you are asking about as possible. The more effort you put in to your questions, the more likely we'll be able to help.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-03, 07:53 PM
No the SICKLE (sorry, I meant sickle instead of handaxe; my bad!) and light mace are backup to your short sword!

Say, a Masterwork Cold Iron Short Sword would be your primary finessable weapon, for example, with a Sickle and Light Mace as backup (for slashing and bludgeoning).

Silverking
2010-09-04, 08:27 AM
Well, first of all, I have already started both games, so I don't need help with making them. I don't think I can buy equipment unless the DM offers it to me, so all I really needed was to make sure I didn't make any mistakes in the box filling that costed my characters.

kaptainkrutch
2010-09-04, 09:05 AM
Thats what I was asking. As I said, I'm kinda inexperienced with this, and have trouble taking what you said, and turning it into something I can put on my sheet.

How's this?

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm102/kaptainkrutchpimpin/halflinghelp.png

Silverking
2010-09-04, 09:11 AM
That is perfect. I now expect all suggestions to include a graphic.

And what is the -1/-1 for?

Leon
2010-09-04, 01:19 PM
Dual wielding penalties.
Although the damage listed looks like its for a Dagger on the second one as its a d4

Silverking
2010-09-04, 01:31 PM
Why is one medium and one small? Also, I though my feat took that away!

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-04, 02:12 PM
They both have to be small 1d4/1d4. And nope, there really isn't any way to take away dual wielding penalties. There's a prestige class that does it, but you should really ignore that class, as it completely sucks. Just get pounce from Barbarian variant or an item, and charge lots, and flank lots, and get an animal that you train to flank and aid another in combat (there is a specific animal trick that does this), if you are worried about the penalties.

Anyway, your damage should be 1d4 + (1d6 sneak attack), 1d4 + (1d6 sneak attack).

Greenish
2010-09-04, 04:16 PM
There's a prestige class that does it, but you should really ignore that class, as it completely sucks.I've always thought it's rather decent. Easy entry requirements, decent class features, maneuver progress. A good two level dip.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-04, 04:20 PM
I've always thought it's rather decent. Easy entry requirements, decent class features, maneuver progress. A good two level dip.

I was thinking of Tempest.

That's the one that's probably easiest to find for a newbie, being in a much older Complete book.

kaptainkrutch
2010-09-04, 04:21 PM
They both have to be small 1d4/1d4.

Short swords are light weapons. If you make it one size category larger, it's a one-handed weapon. There really is no reason for him not to have a medium weapon in his main hand, because he does not have Weapon Finesse.

Greenish
2010-09-04, 04:24 PM
Short swords are light weapons. If you make it one size category larger, it's a one-handed weapon. There really is no reason for him not to have a medium weapon in his main hand, because he does not have Weapon Finesse.Well, the -2 to hit from inappropriately sized weapon isn't really worth the average damage increase of 1.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-04, 04:26 PM
Short swords are light weapons. If you make it one size category larger, it's a one-handed weapon. There really is no reason for him not to have a medium weapon in his main hand, because he does not have Weapon Finesse.

I think that's a house rule, or a 3.0e rule, or an unearthed arcana VARIANT rule... it certainly isn't a 3.5e rule!

If he wants the highest to hit possible with two weapons (-1/-1), he needs two small short swords, for 1d4!

His second level should definitely be Fighter (there is a Fencer variant somewhere...) or Swashbuckler, so he can get Weapon Finesse, though!

Greenish
2010-09-04, 04:29 PM
I was thinking of Tempest.

That's the one that's probably easiest to find for a newbie, being in a much older Complete book.I'm not sure why an older book would be easier to find. :smallconfused:

If he wants the highest to hit possible with two weapons (-1/-1), he needs two small short swords, for 1d4!Or a longsword/shortsword.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-04, 05:22 PM
I'm not sure why an older book would be easier to find. :smallconfused:
Or a longsword/shortsword.

You mean a Morningstar and a shortsword? No longsword proficiency... And when he gets weapon finesse, a Rapier and Shortsword?

Or, I guess, a morningstar (2h) and armor spikes, or a longspear and armor spikes..

Silverking
2010-09-04, 06:16 PM
I sense a distinct lack of graphics and sense. Also, I am confused.

Math_Mage
2010-09-04, 06:47 PM
Heh, maybe it's just me, but I clicked on the thread title expecting to read a discussion of character backstory rather than character sheet. That was probably illogical. All the same, I'd like to see more along those lines. The rogue's history is...sparse. The bard doesn't have anything. Do you have other notes that you haven't put on the sheet?

EDIT:

Why is one medium and one small? Also, I though my feat took that away!

Without the feat, you would take more penalties than you are taking. See the rules for fighting with two weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting).

As for why one med and one small, it's because a medium weapon does more damage and doesn't change the two-weapon penalties, so is strictly better.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-04, 07:31 PM
No it is NOT strictly better, a medium weapon gives you a penalty for weilding an oversized weapon!

mootoall
2010-09-04, 07:42 PM
However, if it's the difference between having a 1 handed weapon and a light weapon, it should be a longsword and a shortsword.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-04, 07:46 PM
No it shouldn't; level 1 rogues are not proficient in longswords unless they are some kind of elf or something!

Thus, it should be a Morningstar and shortsword, and then at level 2 when he gets weapon finesse from Swashbuckler or Fighter, it should be a Rapier and shortsword!

Leon
2010-09-04, 09:14 PM
Once you get level 3 you can take Exotic Weapon Prof - Elven Courtblade and that will give you a d8 damage weapon that's finessable and has a large threat range.

Greenish
2010-09-04, 09:17 PM
Once you get level 3 you can take Exotic Weapon Prof - Elven Courtblade and that will give you a d8 damage weapon that's finessable and has a large threat range.If you want to burn a feat for a two-hander, spiked chain is probably better.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-04, 09:22 PM
If you want to burn a feat for a two-hander, spiked chain is probably better.

Maybe he is thinking of the elven thinblade? IIRC they are a d8 high crit light weapon.

Edit: For the record if I am right I think it is a worthy exotic weapon, specially on dual wielders.

Greenish
2010-09-04, 09:32 PM
Maybe he is thinking of the elven thinblade? IIRC they are a d8 high crit light weapon.

Edit: For the record if I am right I think it is a worthy exotic weapon, specially on dual wielders.Thinblades are one-handed (though Finessable), Elven lightblades are light weapons with 1d6 (medium) and 18-20/x2. Dipping swashbucklers gets one martial weapon proficiency (right?) so kukris are a better option.

Even without martial weapon proficiency, rapier/shortsword is better than burning a feat for dual lightblades, I should think.

Silverking
2010-09-04, 10:04 PM
I didn't know I could actually get more lost than I am now.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-04, 10:15 PM
Thinblades are one-handed (though Finessable), Elven lightblades are light weapons with 1d6 (medium) and 18-20/x2. Dipping swashbucklers gets one martial weapon proficiency (right?) so kukris are a better option.

Even without martial weapon proficiency, rapier/shortsword is better than burning a feat for dual lightblades, I should think.

My comment was assuming they were light weapons, but since they are 1 handed now I know they are not worth it.

Silverking, what is that you don't understand, we were discussing some extra weapon options you might want to take.

Silverking
2010-09-04, 11:12 PM
I know, thats the problem. That rogue is my first character, so I have no point of reference.

Leon
2010-09-05, 12:23 AM
Only thing i see the chain having in its favor is reach and costing less gold to buy - the Courtblade has a higher dice, more threat range and dual damage types.



Maybe he is thinking of the elven thinblade? IIRC they are a d8 high crit light weapon.

Edit: For the record if I am right I think it is a worthy exotic weapon, specially on dual wielders.

No, I'm Thinking of the Courtblade - the 2hander of the family which does d8 for a small PC

Kukri are quite good but are a d3 in the hands of a halfling so your really going to be hedging your bets on getting sneak attack as often as possible

Greenish
2010-09-05, 07:02 AM
Only thing i see the chain having in its favor is reach and costing less gold to buy - the Courtblade has a higher dice, more threat range and dual damage types."Only" reach? :smallamused:

Kukri are quite good but are a d3 in the hands of a halfling so your really going to be hedging your bets on getting sneak attack as often as possibleThat's what you'd do anyway. Small rogue with poor strength doesn't exactly have other options, even with a mighty 1d8 weapon.

Math_Mage
2010-09-05, 07:27 AM
No it is NOT strictly better, a medium weapon gives you a penalty for weilding an oversized weapon!

I'm sorry, I think I mistook a discussion of oversized weapons for a discussion of one-handed melee weapons vs. light weapons.

Silverking, keep your weapons simple if it's your first character. Stick with a pair of daggers (or rapier and dagger) for your main weapons. As was mentioned previously, carry a light mace as backup in case you run into something that's only vulnerable to bludgeoning damage (daggers deal piercing and slashing--read more about weapons here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)), and carry a bow as backup in case you run into something you can't reach. Everything else is needless complication.

Silverking
2010-09-05, 10:16 AM
I'm sorry, I think I mistook a discussion of oversized weapons for a discussion of one-handed melee weapons vs. light weapons.

Silverking, keep your weapons simple if it's your first character. Stick with a pair of daggers (or rapier and dagger) for your main weapons. As was mentioned previously, carry a light mace as backup in case you run into something that's only vulnerable to bludgeoning damage (daggers deal piercing and slashing--read more about weapons here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)), and carry a bow as backup in case you run into something you can't reach. Everything else is needless complication.

Now, this I get. For my rogue, keep what I have, but also get a light mace, and some sort of bow when I get the chance. Should I keep my sap? What kind of bow should I get?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-05, 12:38 PM
Saps are good. Get the nicest bow your proficiency allows. Are you going to take a level of fighter or swashbuckler for the weapon finesse feat at level 2?

kaptainkrutch
2010-09-05, 02:57 PM
Now, this I get. For my rogue, keep what I have, but also get a light mace, and some sort of bow when I get the chance. Should I keep my sap? What kind of bow should I get?

Actually, Math_Mage wants you to have this:
Replace "2 Short Swords" with "2 Daggers"
Replace "1d6/1d4" with "1d3"
Replace "piercing" with "piercing or slashing"
Replace "M/S" with "S"
Replace the "n/a" under range with "10 ft"
Replace "4 lbs" with "2 lbs"

And now that I remember the oversized weapon penalty, I think you should do this:
Replace "1d6/1d4" with "1d4"
Replace "M/S" with "S"

It's your choice, daggers or short swords.

EDIT: Right now you can get a light crossbow or a heavy crossbow. They each take a full round action to reload, so if I were you, I'd go with javelins instead.
-Heavy crossbows cost 50 gp, do 1d8 damage for small characters, 19-20/x2 crit, 120 ft range increment, weigh 8 lbs, and do piercing damage.
-Light crossbows cost 35 gp, do 1d6 damage for small characters, 19-20/x2 crit, 80 ft range increment, weigh 4 lbs, and do piercing damage.
-Crossbow bolts come in sets of 10 that cost 1 gp.
-Javelins cost 1 gp apiece, do 1d4 damage for a small character, have a crit of x2, range increment of 30 ft, weigh 2 lbs, and do piercing damage.
DISREGARD THAT I'M STUPID

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-05, 06:11 PM
Geez kaptainkrutch, your new post *still* has an error.

Rogues are proficient with shortbows. Shortbows are a free action to reload. He should consider a shortbow! It's not like ranged weapons are going to be his main schtick. Maybe some throwing weapons once in a while, but core (and close to core) twf rogues are generally meleeists.

And there are LOTS of options for a 'rogue 1' or a 'rogue 3 with weapon finesse'!

Here are some interesting weapons that rogues are proficient in that might be useful, in general. Choose a few that seem like a good idea:

Dagger (this is extremely versatile -- throwable, finesseable, piercing, slashing, it does it all. also very easy to hide. but with a small character, you basically ignore the actual damage that the weapon itself does, and get almost all your damage from sneak attack!)
Light Mace (this is a great finesseable bludgeoning weapon)
Sickle (this is a great finesseable slashing weapon)
Club (this is a cheap and throwable non finesseable, bludgeoning weapon)
Morningstar (this is a great and powerful piercing and bludgeoning non finesseable weapon)
Spiked Gauntlet (this is a non disarmable piercing weapon, finesseable)
Gauntlet (this is a great non disarmable bludgeoning weapon, finesseable)
Longspear (this is a great non finesseable REACH piercing weapon)
Rapier (this is a great finesseable piercing weapon, but don't use one in your off hand!)
Light Crossbow (this weapon reloads fairly easily and doesn't care about your strength, so you could have a 6 strength and do the same amount of damage)
Dart (a pretty good throwing weapon!)
Javelin (a pretty good throwing weapon!)
Sling (a good weapon that counts as a throwing weapon)
Shortbow (a great weapon, fast reload)
Sap (knock them out without a -4! and finesseable!)
Short Sword (basically your best finesseable offhand piercing weapon without martial weapon proficiency)
Shortspear (a good throwable weapon, that isn't bad in melee, non finesseable)

And some weird stuff from dragon magazine:
Fauchard (Dragon 331) -- A way to get a slashing reach weapon, non finesseable
Prodd (Dragon 349) -- A way to launch slingstones and 'things about slingstone size' long distances, as from a light crossbow
Steel Light Crossbow (Dragon 349) -- a light crossbow that you can use as a simple melee weapon!

And once you get wealthy:

Elvencraft Shortbow (Races of the Wild, I think) -- a way to get your shortbow also work as a club for melee, which you are proficient in

And remember, as a SMALL character, you get a bonus to hit, and you get a damage penalty cause you have to use 'small' weapons.

If you do choose Swashbuckler as your level 2 class (and I would strongly suggest this!), here are some more weapons that become interesting to you, but many NON FINESSEABLE weapons are much *less* interesting to you. Remove the non finesseable stuff from your 'interested to use' list, and add these to your list of 'interested and capable of using':

Armor Spikes
Cutlass (Stormwrack, this is one of my favourite rogue weapons)
Handaxe
Throwing Axe
Kukri (this is another one of my favorite rogue weapons)
Poison Ring (Dragon 316 always be armed, hehehehe...)
Razor Armor (Underdark)
Longbow (including elvencraft version)

For your third level, I would consider some Fighter variant or other, or just going fighter for a few levels. It gets you shield proficiency, and enough bab that you might actually want to strap a buckler to your arm, even with the minor penalty. I wish Swashbuckler had buckler proficiency, seriously, WotC should have looked up the name. They Swashed their Bucklers, argh! Ending up with Fighter2/Swashbuckler3/RogueX is not a bad build for a core+complete, finesse and int based twf character.

Math_Mage
2010-09-05, 10:19 PM
Yah, I prefer daggers over short swords simply because I prefer having both piercing and slashing over the extra half-point of damage per weapon (on average).

Kaptainkrutch, small crossbows take a move action to reload. Just an aside.

Silverking
2010-09-06, 11:34 AM
Surprizingly enough, I could understand that. The commentary helped alot. I am thinking swiching to daggers, a mace, and either a short or light cross bow. What do y'all suggest?

Also, since I've already started the game, I'm not sure how I'm going to get them.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-06, 12:11 PM
Surprizingly enough, I could understand that. The commentary helped alot. I am thinking swiching to daggers, a mace, and either a short or light cross bow. What do y'all suggest?

Also, since I've already started the game, I'm not sure how I'm going to get them.

You get them by going to the nearest weaponsmith and buying them, of course!

That's a big aspect of D&D!

FYI, my starting rogue 1 weapons are usually a morningstar and short sword, then switching to a rapier and cutlass at rogue1/swashbuckler1, and if I am going for a telling blow build, and I have that feat, I switch to rapier and kukri. If I get improved critical (kukri), at some point, I switch to kukri and kukri.

Silverking
2010-09-06, 12:37 PM
And you lost me.

truekender
2010-09-06, 12:47 PM
I'm only checking the bard one lol

Bardic music and class features don't go under the spells section, they're under special abilities and feats.

Bonus spells, spells per day, save DCs are missing.

Select which perform skill you have ranks in (sing, etc).

Build advice:
If you don't have the melodic casting feat (Cmage) then I'd suggest maxing out your concentration skill, you can take ranks out of balance (which isn't as important). OR you can drop skill focus (perform) [not that great] for melodic casting [one of the best bard feats] I think you might need knowledge arcana (and you already have spellcraft) though for that...

(I don't see why you gave your character a 14 in strength (subtract 2 with racial). You use a crossbow, you can dump strength. Your inspire courage will make up for a low strength if you need to go into melee.

if you want to make the most of your illusion abilities captivating melody (Cmage) is a good choice for level 3. your illusion DCs will be spell level + Cha modifier + 1 racial + 2 feat

Silent Image DC 16.

Just my $0.02

Greenish
2010-09-06, 12:59 PM
FYI, my starting rogue 1 weapons are usually a morningstar and short sword, then switching to a rapier and cutlass at rogue1/swashbuckler1, and if I am going for a telling blow build, and I have that feat, I switch to rapier and kukri. If I get improved critical (kukri), at some point, I switch to kukri and kukri.3.5 kukri is a martial weapon and cutlass is just a short sword that deals slashing damage.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-06, 01:46 PM
And you lost me.

You can ignore most of the last part that says what I use in the games where I play a rogue swashbuckler type...

Oh heck, I'll just show you the build... lots of this stuff is from a good amount of very obscure books (including some obscure dragon magazine stuff), but this can be good for giving you an idea of what *sort* of things are possible for a precision and finesse, intelligence and dex focused melee character. Okay?

Human Bonus Feat - Able Learner (helps with skills)
1Rogue1 - Telling Blow Feat (helps with criticals) (take rogue as first level for the many extra skill points, hit points can be made up later) Start by fighting with a Morningstar, or a Longspear, or a Fauchard (a slashing longspear like weapon)
2Swashbuckler2 - gets weapon finesse, switch out to a Rapier.
3Fighter(Fencer variant)1 - Two Weapon Fighting bonus Feat, Keen Intellect -- helps with defenses and skills, you add a Kukri to the mix
4Rogue2
5Swashbuckler2
6Swashbuckler3 - Craven (feat), Insightful Strike class feature - int to damage and character level to sneak attack, all in one level! Your damage goes waayyy up.
7Rogue3 - take alternate class feature: penetrating strike, which lets you do 1/2 sneak attack damage on SA immune creatures on a flank
8Rogue4
9Fighter(Fencer)2 - Improved Critical-Kukri bonus feat, Daring Outlaw feat, you switch out your Rapier for a Kukri. Your telling blow now triggers very often, and rogue and swashbuckler stack very easily. You are fighting with two kukri's
10 Fighter(Fencer)3
11 Fighter (Fencer)4 -Fencer ability Encouraging Blow (helps with criticals, making critical hits more awesome)
12 Rogue5 Improved Buckler Defense Feat, add a Buckler to the mix, you now have some higher defense
13 Rogue6
14 Rogue7
15 Rogue8 Parrying Shield Feat -- you have even more good defense options
16 Rogue9
17 Rogue10 Crippling Strike rogue ability -- your sneak attack gets more badss
18 Rogue11 Staggering Strike feat -- your sneak attack gets more badass
19 rogue12 Replace Rogue Ability with Darkstalker -- you can now hide from lots of obscure abilities without invoking major amounts of spell support any more
20 Rogue13

Your highest two stats are Dexterity and Intelligence, which you use for most aspects of your character. By level 20, but probably MUCH earlier, you will want to be fighting with, at least, two +1 Blessed Solarian Truesteel Kukri's and a buckler, and you will want Gloves of the Balanced Hand. You will have 8d6 sneak attack, with gloves of the balanced hand you act as if you have improved two weapon fighting, getting you three extra attacks, and you have over 16 bab, getting you four attacks with the main hand and three with the off hand, in a full attack action EACH that can do 8d6 sneak attack. You also get intelligence to damage, and are also using a buckler that applies it's bonus to your touch AC as well as normal AC, because you are actually using it to parry things with! Also if you make a successful critical hit, you automatically also get your sneak attack damage. If you are flanking something sneak attack immune, you get half your sneak attack anyway. You threaten on a to hit roll of a 15 or better, which is 30% of the rolls you make. If you threaten an evil monster, you auto confirm. Otherwise, you get +1 extra to confirm from the truesteel. When you threaten a critical hit, you get a +3 morale bonus to AC against the creature you threaten for a round. When you confirm a critical hit, the bonus increases to +6. Whenever you do sneak attack damage, you stagger the creature for that round. Every blow that also does sneak attack also does 2 strength damage to that creature, which can rapidly make any creature you target that is not strength damage immune completely unable to do anything. You get intelligence to damage on each attack. You get dexterity to hit on each attack. Your rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for purposes of grace, dodge bonus, and sneak attack, improving your survivability and damage. You use your intelligence bonus instead of your wisdom modifier for your Will save, Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival. You get your character level to sneak attack damage on each attack that can get sneak attack from the Craven feat. You have lots of skills from high intelligence, good skill classes, able learner, and many rogue levels. You have a great fort and reflex save, terrible will save, and decent hit points. You are wearing light armor, probably some kind of Mithril Chain Shirt, since you get absolutely no penalty from using that. Also, you can hide even from scent, tremorsense, see invisibility, etc. because of the Darkstalker feat.

Silverking
2010-09-06, 10:23 PM
That sounds... just epic. My main problems are: A, I only have the srd for reference, and B, I already started him. I will, however, consider this for my next rogue, should I magically get access to every single book in existence.

And truekender, I'm not sure where to put that stuff, and I don't know what melodic casting does. Any chance you could make a picture? lol

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-06, 11:33 PM
Oh, the SRD version of this character is Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 16. It would start out using a morningstar or longspear, then switch to a rapier, and then at level four to a rapier and dagger or rapier and short sword or maybe rapier and kukri. Here's one example build:

Tallfellow Water Halfling
1. Rogue1 Combat Expertise
2. Fighter1 Weapon Finesse
3. Ranger1. Improved Feint
4. Ranger2 Two Weapon Fighting
5. Rogue2
6. Fighter2 Iron Will, Deadly Precision
7. Rogue3
8. Rogue4
9. Rogue5 Cloak Dance
10. Rogue6
11. Rogue7
12. Rogue8 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Rogue9
14. Rogue10 Crippling Strike
15. Rogue11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Rogue12
17. Rogue13 Improved Evasion
18. Rogue14 Two-Weapon Defense
19. Rogue15
20. Rogue16 Slippery Mind

Math_Mage
2010-09-06, 11:40 PM
And truekender, I'm not sure where to put that stuff, and I don't know what melodic casting does. Any chance you could make a picture? lol

That I can help with.


MELODIC CASTING
You can weave your music and magic together into a single
perfect voice.
Prerequisites: Perform 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, bardic
music class feature.
Benefit: Whenever a Concentration check would be
required to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability (such as
when you cast defensively or are distracted or injured while
casting), you can make a Perform check instead.
In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items
by command word or spell completion while using a bardic
music ability. Bardic music abilities that require concentration
still take a standard action to perform.
Normal: A bard can't cast spells or activate magic items
by command word or spell completion while using bardic
music.

The ability to cast spells while playing music is tremendously useful.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-07, 03:39 PM
So Silverking... what did you think of the SRD version?

Silverking
2010-09-08, 07:52 PM
Next time I make a rogue, you are going to be walking me through it. That will be my build.


And Math Mage, I'm going to try and convince my DM to let me change my feat to that.

Silverking
2010-09-12, 05:42 PM
Ok guys, I need a core focused Healer/cleric. Any suggestions?

Math_Mage
2010-09-12, 06:06 PM
Ok guys, I need a core focused Healer/cleric. Any suggestions?

A healer, or a cleric? What level? How much opti-fu?

Silverking
2010-09-12, 06:37 PM
Cleric, unless there is a better healer build of a different class. Level 1, and whats opti fu?

Big sixteen:

1.What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?
3.5e D&D

2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)? Generic Fantasy World. Greyhawk gods will be fine, though some new ones will be added (and if you'd like a god made around a concept you have I'm find with that)

3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?
4-6. Most likely 4 with a couple alternates.

4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?
These Forums.

5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?
First level, max class starting gold.

6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?
Max class starting gold

7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?
I'd prefer us having the "standard" Tank, DPS, Healer, Skill Monkey setup, and will be picking players based on that and background

8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?
Please keep things simple (Core rules and classes). I might be willing to stretch this, but raidyn wants noob friendly, and I don't recall using anything but the basics for a while as a new player. More lenient on feats from extra sources.

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
Full first hit die, and 1/2 hd after (d4 would be 3 on 2nd level, 2 on third, etc). Ability scores: Standard array of 17, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 arranged any way you like (before racial)

10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?
I'd prefer non-evil. I will not make that a requirement.

11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?
I'm not a big fan of multi-classing, especially dipping for one level for skills/feats/abilities/qualifying for a prestige class. Again, not going to ban it, but I'm not a fan.

12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?
The forum roller for anything the players want to roll. I will be using my own dice for my rolls.

13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.
Death Rule: You do not die until reduced to -Con hit points (minimum -10).

14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?
Backgrounds should be solid, but bear in mind you are first level.

15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?
Hack N Slash, exploration, puzzle solving, roleplaying and a cheese danish

16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?
Core books only please, I will allow feats and the like from other sources. No traits or flaws. Variant classes I will consider from published sources.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-12, 07:59 PM
Okay, so you want a PHB, MM, DMG, SRD healing focused character, who doesn't overshadow the classic tank and precision DPR/skill roles, and excels extremely well at keeping a party going over time with efficient use of resources?

Silverking
2010-09-12, 08:22 PM
Uhhh.. Darn you uncommon terms! Feels like my first few months of WOW.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-12, 08:36 PM
So you want a help that uses the three core books and the system resource document, with so the options are easily found online, that is good at efficiently healing, and doesn't overshadow well built characters ALSO using those resources that focus on one job in particular. In other words, a healing focused character that doesn't accidentally overshadow, say, the Barbarian at "being a combat monster".

Silverking
2010-09-12, 09:16 PM
Maybe not a complete healer, that will make a boring early game. Perhaps a build that gets more healing later on? And yes for the rest.

Math_Mage
2010-09-12, 09:34 PM
Do you anticipate this campaign running for several levels? That is, do you want to be considering how the character will play at level 8, or just, say, 1-3?

17 Wis
15 Str
14 Con
13 Cha
12 Int
10 Dex

...or something like that. Maybe Dex over Int if you don't need the skill points.

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) with any two domains (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm) from Good, Luck, or Strength. (You also get Knowledge as a bonus domain.) You don't need the Healing domain because you spontaneously cast cure spells--buffs work better. Human is fine for race--you could ask about Lesser Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm) but don't be surprised if the DM says no. Diplomacy, Spot/Listen, Spellcraft, Heal, Concentration, and the Knowledges are good skills to take.

That should be enough to start with.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-12, 09:36 PM
Okay. How important is it that the characters of your players are roughly of equal capability? With Core 3.5 it is VERY difficult to do the four roles (arcane utility and debuff and control, tanking, healing and buffing, and skills and precision damage), with each character contributing equally to the party, because, well, let's just put it this way. Here are the Core characters best able to solve those problems:

DPS: Cleric, Druid, Wizard
Tanking: Cleric, Druid, Wizard
Healing: Cleric, Druid
Solving things that's generally the realm of skills: Cleric, Druid, Wizard. Maybe Bard or Rogue or Ranger if you are feeling generous, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard can solve anything they can do as well.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

If you wanted to try and get things close to the same power level using the SRD and online classes...

Tank: Psychic Warrior
Skills and DPS: Psychic Rogue
Arcane and Utility spells: Bard
Healing: Items. No one wants to be stuck as a healer, that's not a real role.

Math_Mage
2010-09-12, 09:42 PM
Tanking: Cleric, Druid, Wizard

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Anyway, a Cleric can certainly play well in all four roles, but he doesn't have to, as I demonstrate above.

Silverking
2010-09-12, 09:48 PM
Being overpowered is absolutely fine. And what do you think of Math mage's start gavinfoxx? Wait, Wizard tank?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-15, 08:31 PM
Yes, Wizard Tank. It's called summoning, binding, alter selfing, polymorphing, buff spells. Wizards can tank just fine with good spell selection.

And as an PHB/SRD/Online classes Healer, Cloistered Cleric works great. Psionics might also be useful -- a Psychometabolist is a very interesting healer, with a unique subsystem.

As far as core races, Human is always a good choice. That extra feat is useful.

If going cloistered Cleric, take a look at BOTH SRD domain lists:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Silverking
2010-09-15, 10:29 PM
so you are saying that non-magic classes arn't good in battle?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-15, 10:50 PM
so you are saying that non-magic classes arn't good in battle?

There are a few that are! Crusader and Warblade come to mind. Barbarian can be a good one trick pony. Totemist is good and versatile. Ranger, with the right alternate class features, is good (though they use a ton of magic to get to their best). Swordsage is arguably "not magical", and is good in battle. Psychic Warrior is easy to reflavor to not seem all that overtly magical, and is good in battle.

But none of those are close to the potential power of the very overtly 'experts at magic' classes, no.

lsfreak
2010-09-16, 12:43 AM
Quick clarification:
In groups where people truly understand the power of the classes, nonmagic characters can have a hell of a time catching up, and oftentimes it's flat-out impossible (high-level wizards have, no joke, I-win buttons, which can only be countered by a wizard with the same I-win buttons). On the other hand, in such groups, the players playing magical classes should know how to keep themselves from stomping over the other players power-wise.

On the third hand, magical classes are such that you can accidentally make them zomgawesome, while it's very, very easy to make a mundane character suck hard. For example, if you take an SRD-only fighter, paladin, or ranger and try and play him at 15th level, he'll likely be either useless or dead, even if you know the system inside and out. On the fourth hand, 1-8th-ish levels aren't so bad as long as everyone in your group optimizes around the same level.

I really wouldn't worry about optimization yet. Come here, ask questions, take advice, read around. Then start looking at the long-term picture of class balance and party balance, base don how you and your friends play.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-16, 12:53 AM
However, as far as melee characters, the basic idea of how a spellcasting character can overcome a melee character, even with very little optimization, is simply following a few guidelines as a Core Druid:

1.) Wild shape into the biggest meanest animal you can, before the fight starts. If you don't like talking, there might not be any reason for the druid to be in human form ever past 8th level
2.) Use forms for combat. Look at the monster manual and SRD. Generally, a good idea is "be the biggest bear you can be".
3.) Make sure your animal companion is always traded up to the biggest meanest creature as often as possible.
4.) Make sure as many of your spells in your spell list are melee combat buffs, and cast them
5.) Get Natural Spell at level 6.
6.) Remember, you have Summon Nature's Ally. The situation can almost always be improved by Adding More Bears. Do so.

So consider this... at level 8, a Druid is potentially a Brown Bear, 24/7. His animal companion is a Brown Bear. Every Big Important Combat, he can open up by Summoning at least one more Brown Bear. In a few levels, he will switch to a Dire Bear for these three things.

THEN consider the class is a FULL CASTER with lots of buffs and lots of battlefield control and a massive amount of utility spells.

Now, consider how badass an appropriately equipped and relatively optimized FIGHTER is at melee combat compared to this. Compare what each of the two classes brings to the table for "being badass in melee", and "doing anything at all other than melee combat well". Look at this concept very, very closely...

And this is almost completely unoptomized, there are LOTS of ways to augment this or do this better, but this is the LAZY and CORE way of doing it.

lsfreak
2010-09-16, 01:17 AM
To be fair, druids are the single most obviously broken class, especially at low levels. Even moreso than wizards and clerics, druids fall into the category of 'accidentally breaking the game.' The solely magic-based classes aren't quite as intuitive to break the game, though by no means particularly hard once you understand the system.

Also, I have a habit of forgetting about druids, because they often go a bit ignored by the people I play with :smalltongue:

Math_Mage
2010-09-16, 03:18 AM
Yes, Wizard Tank. It's called summoning, binding, alter selfing, polymorphing, buff spells. Wizards can tank just fine with good spell selection.

At level 1? What do you do, summon a celestial monkey? And just about anything you do to that monkey (or yourself) would be better done to a party Fighter or Druid/AC or some such. That's where we're starting, remember.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-16, 03:56 AM
Eh, at level 1, the wizard can cast spells so the Mule can tank, and at level 3 they can take over, they are potentially better than the fighter at that point, if they do things right

Seriously, when an 8 gp animal can do a large part of the Fighter's job, what's the point??

Silverking
2010-09-17, 05:22 PM
*Drools and wants to be a druid* does this apply in Hackmaster too?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-17, 07:44 PM
*Drools and wants to be a druid* does this apply in Hackmaster too?

Nooo. Hackmaster is AD&D with some changes, and a specific, OVERT Player vs DM way of doing things.

And in hackmaster, what you play is determined by what you actually roll for stats. It is specifically, intentionally anti-player-empowerment. Hackmaster (and AD&D, and Gygaxian style RPG's) are more like an arcade game where you KNOW the character you are going to be playing is going to die horribly, but the point is to die with the most loot and glory and achievement.

Silverking
2010-09-17, 10:00 PM
So I am my group's magic user. Due to my indecision, I have become the class magic-user. I'm also a pixie. What do you suggest I get in the form of flaws, and skills and such?

Math_Mage
2010-09-17, 10:12 PM
So I am my group's magic user. Due to my indecision, I have become the class magic-user. I'm also a pixie. What do you suggest I get in the form of flaws, and skills and such?

Which magic-user? Why pixie?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-17, 10:14 PM
Cause he is playing Hackmaster maybe? I'm not quite sure on this, what games he is playing in now... Maybe he's playing in multiple games?

Silverking
2010-09-17, 11:50 PM
Yes, this one is hackmaster.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-18, 12:27 AM
Yes, this one is hackmaster.

Okay, so can you tell us what games you ARE in, or what you ARE running, or going to be running, or what??

Silverking
2010-09-18, 12:29 AM
uhh, I have the two in my sig, then one that I'm almost done making in real life for hackmaster. what else do you need to know?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-18, 12:30 AM
uhh, I have the two in my sig, then one that I'm almost done making in real life for hackmaster. what else do you need to know?

Weren't you going to be running?

Silverking
2010-09-18, 12:33 AM
No, I'm just playing.