Haleys hard times

[Caelis]

I was just thinking that Haley's been having some pretty rough times for the past 200 comics or so. First she had to deal with an out of control Belkar, then with a sick Belkar, and now with a way-too-lawful Durkon.

It's a rather good question which of these has been the hardest to deal with for her. On the one hand, Belkar is... well Belkar. Haley is at least strongly leaning towards the good and his evil behaviour was naturally a pain, especially with Celia hanging around. On the other hand, at least she his pragmatic and chaotic nature made it somewhat easier for her to deal with, while Durkon's extereme-lawfulness is entirely alien to her.

So, which one of her companions do you think is the biggest pain for our favourite rogue?

[SlayerScott]

I think Haley's biggest pain was Celia. She badly screwed up the Roy resurrection efforts losing his body and having him turned into a bone golem. She dragged her back to Greysky city where she renewed hostilities with Bozzok, Crystal and the Thieves Guild - all of whom are still alive and very angry with Haley. To top it all off she promised half of Haley's beloved treasure to the thieves guild - treasure she had been saving to free her father. That's to say nothing of their ladylike sniping vis-a-vis Haley's hair, clothes etc. I like Celia as a character but she was pretty much Haley's greatest obstacle thus far.

[Scarlet Knight]

Kissing Nale! :smallyuk:

[Swordpriest]

I'll agree on Celia. Negotiating a surrender to people that Haley had already defeated was about as boneheaded as it comes. I still can't see why Haley bothered to even listen, actually -- after all, Bozzok self-confessedly wants to kill her, and admitted to being directly responsible for her dad's fate.

[factotum]

She listened because she was born in Greysky City and considered the Guild to be a lesser evil than the MOBs--she didn't want to see the city plunged into chaos (well, more chaos than it was already in, anyway). Not to mention, of course, Celia carefully didn't tell her the bit about owing the Guild an enormous amount of money until after they got back to the guild house.

[Swordpriest]

SNot to mention, of course, Celia carefully didn't tell her the bit about owing the Guild an enormous amount of money until after they got back to the guild house.

That is true. I'd forgotten that Celia is not only an obnoxious jackass, but a deceitful obnoxious jackass. :smallbiggrin:

[JoeSkull]

That is true. I'd forgotten that Celia is not only an obnoxious jackass, but a deceitful obnoxious jackass. :smallbiggrin:

Shes a lawyer.

[Crisis21]

Shes a lawyer.

Yes, that makes it 'careful and strategic interpretation of facts'.

In all honesty, Haley's early time in Greysky was probably the hardest on her.

1)She had to deal with a sick Belkar.
2)She had to deal with a pacifistic NPC, Celia, who felt she knew the circumstances better than Haley (with varying degrees of correctness in that assumption).
3)She had to deal with the fact that she was in hostile territory with dangerous foes (Bozzak, Crystal, and the rest of the thieves guild) who wanted to kill her.
4)She had no backup. Remember that Belkar is incapacitated and Celia is a pacifist.
5)She had lost possession of Roy's body.
6)Elan was not with her. This is perhaps the most important point of all.

[zimmerwald1915]

Bozzok, Crystal and the Thieves Guild - all of whom are still alive and very angry with Haley.
Crystal's dead, unless she's been raised.

[Swordpriest]

Shes a lawyer.

Excellent point. :smallsmile:

[Crisis21]

Crystal's dead, unless she's been raised.

I think he's saying that she was still alive during the time he's describing.

[Ancalagon]

Crystal's dead, unless she's been raised.

Yes, now that's the problem that Crystal = |Alive> + |Dead> :smalltongue:

I guess it's 50/50... for now. Back then it was 100 and Haley surely can be "annoyed" with Celia...

[Alagaesian]

Haley? Having a hard time right now? Please. She's not sentenced to death in a gladiatorial arena. She's enjoying a gourmet feast as a guest of the General.

[Goosefarble]

Yeah, look how easy everyone else had it. Roy died and Vaarsuvius got divorced by its mate.

[Stmr5000]

I was just thinking that Haley's been having some pretty rough times for the past 200 comics or so. First she had to deal with an out of control Belkar, then with a sick Belkar, and now with a way-too-lawful Durkon.


I'm sorry, I disagree. The current disagreement with Durkon is completely Haley's fault. The group is being forced to pander to her inability to trust seemingly decent people who may be willing to help them.

[slayerx]

She listened because she was born in Greysky City and considered the Guild to be a lesser evil than the MOBs--she didn't want to see the city plunged into chaos (well, more chaos than it was already in, anyway).

Actually i think it ended up being less about the mobs and more about the fact that working with the guild made raising Roy and getting the party back together much simpler. Without the guild she would have had to hire Mercenaries to help her take Roy back; and if she could not find anyone to work with in greysky, that would mean needing to travel all the way to cliffport. However, even if she found local mercenaries to help her, she still would have to travel to cliffport to either contact Durkon or get Roy a raise... allying with the guild gave her access to the church of loki which could contact Durkon or resurrect Roy... All in all, the deal sounded like a great money/time saver

But again, as you mentioned, this was BEFORE she knew what this deal was gonna REALLY cost her

[Dr.Epic]

One could argue the entire comic has been hard times for Haley:

Her father was taken prisoner before it's start and she had to earn a ridiculous sum just so the guy keeping him in jail would think of letting him go.
She lost all the gold she was saving up just for that, and then her voice.
She finally gets her voice back and a guy she loved, but oh wait, there was this war and they got separated for months.
She had to deal with being in an underground resistance fighting goblins and other resistance group.
Then she dealt with Belkar and Celia.

Oh, and as for your question about who's worst, Belkar or Durkon, it's Belkar. Haley is the one who's being troublesome. Lying which would look bad if they're caught.

[sockmonkey]

Yanno, I'll bet Roy being unavailable is making Haley flash back to when he was dead and she had to bear all the burdens of leadership which drove her nuts.
So she hates the job, doesn't feel she can do it right, but feels she has to look out for everyone anyway so she's overcompensating to the point of stupidity in a way that she feels most comfortable with. Deception.

[Stmr5000]

Yanno, I'll bet Roy being unavailable is making Haley flash back to when he was dead and she had to bear all the burdens of leadership which drove her nuts.
So she hates the job, doesn't feel she can do it right, but feels she has to look out for everyone anyway so she's overcompensating to the point of stupidity in a way that she feels most comfortable with. Deception.

I read that last were as decepticon...

Anyway, it's still her fault, because unlike last time, when she had only a clueless sylph and a vomiting psychopath to work with, this time she has one of, it not the most sensible member of the team, giving her sound advice.

[sockmonkey]

I read that last were as decepticon...

Anyway, it's still her fault, because unlike last time, when she had only a clueless sylph and a vomiting psychopath to work with, this time she has one of, it not the most sensible member of the team, giving her sound advice.Fortunately, the sheer insanity that an OOTS/Transformer joke would entail, blew out the pun center of my brain thus preventing me from inflicting any upon you.
And yeah, Haley should be skilled enough at sizing people up to see past Durkon's dwarven eccentricites to the unassuming badass that he is.

[Souhiro]

I think that is Durkon who is facing a hard time.

For the sake of his companions, he must keep the masquerade, but he sees as Haley took Thor's worshipping rites as getting as drunk as possible. And he is getting pissed while haley is just high.

The lizzard put it clear: He is sruggling to mantain the party's HP ballance at positive!

[Nilan8888]

I'm sorry, I disagree. The current disagreement with Durkon is completely Haley's fault. The group is being forced to pander to her inability to trust seemingly decent people who may be willing to help them.

Mostly agree. I'm not sure you could really say the EoB could be described as 'seemingly decent people'. They've been mannered and courteous but there's been plenty of details to suggest they are not necessarily decent.

But you are largely right: whatever these doubts, Haley is seriously overplaying her hand. Mistrust is not such a blanket term that if you meet Charles Manson it makes sense to tell him you're Canadian when you're actually American. Yes: you don't want to tell him your street adress or your bank account number. But there's no sense lying about details that the subject can't make much use of. It's just going to make Manson's reaction unpredictable if you tell him the above lie and he later sees you with a US passport. In order to make the best play, you have to make your lies very small and very vital, and otherwise tell the truth.

[Zevox]

I'm sorry, I disagree. The current disagreement with Durkon is completely Haley's fault. The group is being forced to pander to her inability to trust seemingly decent people who may be willing to help them.
Er, Haley has very good reasons for distrusting Tarquin. Aside from his pushing her out the window, there's the fact that he serves a Red Dragon and helps run what appears to be an evil empire (which she knows openly uses slavery), she knows that his last wife died of "mysterious circumstances" (which is pretty suspicious if you're smarter than Elan), and for unknown reasons he's refusing to offer them whatever help he might be able to until after this festival. Plus she also knows he raised Nale, and if she were around when Tarquin explained his backstory, she'd know he openly admits to raising him to be ruthless and efficient, and that Tarquin himself came to this region of the world in order to conquer a kingdom for himself.

Yeah, there's plenty of reasons not to trust Tarquin and friends. Trouble is, between Elan's obliviousness and Durkon's lawfulness and limited information on the matters that point to his untrustworthiness, two of the others around her don't seem to realize it (what V thinks of the matter is unknown at this point).

Zevox

[slayerx]

Er, Haley has very good reasons for distrusting Tarquin.

So what? just because she doesn't trust them does not mean lying to them is the best way to deal with them.

i might ask what Roy would do in this situation. I doubt he would trust them anymore than Haley does but i don't think he would try to keep together a lie because of it... He told them that they should remain good guests until they could get the info they needed about Girard... LYING is NOT a part of being a good guest... Roy also knows well enough that Elan is too stupid to be trusted to maintain a lie (he's already slipping up) and that Durkon has serious issues with lying and may even have difficulty fooling people with mistruths(or coming up with convincing lies should he try); so the chances of getting caught in their lie is pretty good and THAT would jeopardize their attempts to get info on Girard

Frankly i think the only bit of info they should keep hidden, if anything, is only roy and belkar since those two are effectively at Tarquin's mercy

[Nimrod's Son]

Frankly i think the only bit of info they should keep hidden, if anything, is only roy and belkar since those two are effectively at Tarquin's mercy
This sums it up for me. Durkon's already told Malack he came to the palace to enquire about a few prisoners. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html) Where's the harm in just saying, "Oh! Never mind then. These are the folks I was looking for; they're my friends."

The fact that they have lied is surely going to bite them on the ass later on. Makes for a good story and all of that...

[Morty]

Haley hasn't been worse off than most other Order members since the Azure City arc. Yes, a lot of stuff happened to her. But in comparison, Roy got killed, V made a deal with the Lower Planes and got divorced and Belkar got hit with Mark of Justice - the difference in Belkar's case being that he deserved it.

[slayerx]

This sums it up for me. Durkon's already told Malack he came to the palace to enquire about a few prisoners. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html) Where's the harm in just saying, "Oh! Never mind then. These are the folks I was looking for; they're my friends."

The fact that they have lied is surely going to bite them on the ass later on. Makes for a good story and all of that...

Indeed, one thing i've brought in the past is what will happen when Durkon is asked about the prisoners he came looking for... Thanks to Haley's lies he can't mention that he came for Elan, Haley and V... He would have to try and work is way around Roy and Belkar, but how long can he keep up that line of mistruths before he actually has to name them and thus link Roy and Belkar to himself.

[Stmr5000]

Er, Haley has very good reasons for distrusting Tarquin. Aside from his pushing her out the window, there's the fact that he serves a Red Dragon and helps run what appears to be an evil empire (which she knows openly uses slavery), she knows that his last wife died of "mysterious circumstances" (which is pretty suspicious if you're smarter than Elan), and for unknown reasons he's refusing to offer them whatever help he might be able to until after this festival. Plus she also knows he raised Nale, and if she were around when Tarquin explained his backstory, she'd know he openly admits to raising him to be ruthless and efficient, and that Tarquin himself came to this region of the world in order to conquer a kingdom for himself.


But look at it this way. The way the Order rolls, they're lucky that the EoB doesn't want to kill (most) of them out of hand. The fact that Tarquin is even a little willing to help is better then they could expect, and a reason for some level of trust. As for why he will only tell after the festival, I always assumed that it was simply because Tarquin wanted an excuse to keep his recently discovered son around for his party, not because of dangerous ulterior motives.

[Zevox]

But look at it this way. The way the Order rolls, they're lucky that the EoB doesn't want to kill (most) of them out of hand.
Er, what? And what exactly have they done that would cause that reaction? The Empire of Blood knows basically nothing about them, and outside of entering the place without the proper papers - which Durkon proved was easily fixed anyway - they've done nothing that would draw any ire from the nation or its leaders.


The fact that Tarquin is even a little willing to help is better then they could expect, and a reason for some level of trust.
No, no it is not, especially considering he is Elan's father.


As for why he will only tell after the festival, I always assumed that it was simply because Tarquin wanted an excuse to keep his recently discovered son around for his party, not because of dangerous ulterior motives.
A foolish assumption to make considering the rest of the reasons to be suspicious and wary of him that there are.

Zevox

[Souhiro]

Tarkin was eager to help, and don't kill Elan, nor his friends the very same moment he recognices his son.

He will try to make profit of him? Sure. But I think he will avoid making any harm to progeny. And for everything he knows, Haley could be bearing a little Tarkin, so she can be safe, too.


In other hand, Durkon has the sympaty of the Lizarfolk Cleric, so I think that in a battle, those two would avoid fighting each other, or if forced, end in a chivalrous fight and posibily won't kill themselves, but leave to 0HP and let the other flee or try to convince to defect to the other side (I had one of these in a game)

[Kish]

While I consider Tarquin and the Empire blatantly evil--they haven't even made any efforts to pretend they aren't! Elan could probably just ask his father what his alignment is and get the reply, "Why, Lawful Evil."--and blatantly untrustworthy, I don't sympathize with Haley's reflexive distrust of absolutely everyone. People would be more likely to listen to her when she's right if she wasn't the proverbial stopped clock, always pointing to "don't trust" whether she's dealing with a waiter, a marsupial, or an evil overlord.

(I probably wouldn't sympathize with Durkon's motives either. I don't know, because he hasn't said what they are.)