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View Full Version : [3.5] What rules interactions led to this?



fortesama
2010-09-01, 09:38 AM
Sword of the Arcane Order requires at least 4 levels of Paladin or Prestige Paladin.

A build I saw pulled it off at PrC Pally 1.

What gives?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-09-01, 09:41 AM
The build could have met the requirements via Ranger 4.

fortesama
2010-09-01, 09:44 AM
I didn't see ranger 4 there either. Took a look. Something about Dragon Magic doing that.

jmbrown
2010-09-01, 09:56 AM
Not every PrC is limited to level 6. There's one in Complete Mage I believe that can be taken at level 4 (3rd level wizard, 1st level prc).

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 10:01 AM
A build I saw pulled it off at PrC Pally 1.

What gives?
It's probably an error. Lots of builds overlook requirements and just don't hold together when examined closely.

Private-Prinny
2010-09-01, 10:03 AM
If he doesn't have Paladin or Ranger spell slots that draw from the Paladin or Ranger list, then he can't take the feat. Prestige Paladin does not allow you to take SotAO, since it merely advances another casting class.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-01, 10:33 AM
Prestige Paladin does not allow you to take SotAO, since it merely advances another casting class.
Actually that's not right. Prestige Paladin would allow you to qualify to take the feat with 4 levels; it just wouldn't provide any benefit because Prestige Paladin has no spell slots.

Vangor
2010-09-01, 10:38 AM
Sword of the Arcane Order requires at least 4 levels of Paladin or Prestige Paladin.

A build I saw pulled it off at PrC Pally 1.

What gives?

Assuming no Paladin or Ranger 4 to qualify, they likely erroneously believe the prerequisites necessitate Paladin or Ranger casting rather than a strict level amount. Absolute levels are fairly rare for prerequisites, so this is easy to see happening.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-01, 10:47 AM
If he doesn't have Paladin or Ranger spell slots that draw from the Paladin or Ranger list, then he can't take the feat. Prestige Paladin does not allow you to take SotAO, since it merely advances another casting class.

I'm not sure what the feat in question is from and don't know anything about it, but there are ways of getting spells from other class's spell lists.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-09-01, 11:01 AM
Sword of the Arcane Order necessitates that you have four levels of Paladin or Ranger and then follow a certain deity while being a member of a certain order. It then lets you use paladin or ranger slots to prepare wizard/sorcerer spells.

Considering everything said here, I'd put my money on the person who made the build going by gut and/or memory, resulting in the mistake. That or houserules.

Greenish
2010-09-01, 11:04 AM
there are ways of getting spells from other class's spell lists.Yeah, such as Prestige Paladin or Sword of Arcane Order.

fortesama
2010-09-02, 07:45 PM
found a link to the feat. (am I allowed to do this? I dont remember seeing in the forum rules i cant.)
{Scrubbed}

personally, i doubt that this would practically work. while you did pull the ranger/paladin list into your list, thus qualifying you ala Dragon Magic the spell slots are based on the class that qualified for it so SotAO wont do you any good. Unless of course the DM rules that your slots also count as paladin/ranger slot due to PrC Paladin/Ranger. In that case...:smallbiggrin:

Thefurmonger
2010-09-02, 07:53 PM
No, as that is not OGL then you can not link to it IIRC

Fax Celestis
2010-09-02, 08:06 PM
To be frank, you can't early-entry it as it specifically states "Paladin 4" or "Ranger 4". You could if it said something like "Ability to cast paladin spells or ranger spells."

You could make an argument for something like Paladin 1/Legacy Champion 5 qualifying due to the +existing class feature, but even that's a stretch.

...or Paladin 4/Prestige Paladin 1, I guess? But why on earth would you want to do that?

Thurbane
2010-09-02, 08:44 PM
Not sure about the reqs for SotAO, but how about an ex-Paladin Blackguard who swaps out his Paladin levels for Blackguard levels, as per the DMG?

fortesama
2010-09-02, 09:13 PM
No, as that is not OGL then you can not link to it IIRC

Point taken. Back on topic.

SotAO is from Champions of Valor.

One part of that build included this: (Qualifying Class combination) 11/PrC Paladin 1. don't ask why it took that long.

Page 15 of Dragon Magic was the reference for that. Took a look and i'm still skeptical whether the combo works. It appears that the ruling applies only for initiate feats. Even if it did qualify, you don't have any paladin slots unless your DM considers it so its so.

Let's say the qualifying class was an archivist. as per dragon magic, it would qualify for Initate of Mystra, among other things since it shares the cleric spell list. SotAO isn't an initiate feat so i'm not sure if the aforementioned build would qualify for it with or without the PrC Pally even though it could has the Paladin spell list. unless of course i missed something... again.

Hmm... with that in mind, i think i'll try out an archivist with initiate of mystra if something unpleasant happens to my current character.


Not sure about the reqs for SotAO, but how about an ex-Paladin Blackguard who swaps out his Paladin levels for Blackguard levels, as per the DMG?

Hmmm... assuming you still have at least paladin 4, i guess you could technically qualify. if not: you're not using the paladin spell list anymore are you?

Curmudgeon
2010-09-03, 01:20 AM
Page 15 of Dragon Magic was the reference for that. Took a look and i'm still skeptical whether the combo works.

Any character of a class that must select a deity and that uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting can treat his level in that class as if it were a cleric level for the purpose of qualifying for an initiate feat. Entirely bogus.

Sword of the Arcane Order requires 4th level Ranger or Paladin, not Cleric, so being able to simulate a higher Cleric level doesn't help.
It's all irrelevant anyway, since Sword of the Arcane Order isn't an initiate feat.

fortesama
2010-09-03, 01:47 AM
Entirely bogus.

Sword of the Arcane Order requires 4th level Ranger or Paladin, not Cleric, so being able to simulate a higher Cleric level doesn't help.
It's all irrelevant anyway, since Sword of the Arcane Order isn't an initiate feat.


Thank you. Now I can rest in peace. (and cry as my dreams are shattered)