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Bulwer
2010-09-01, 01:03 PM
Okay, so say I'm at a party, and I need someone to fall asleep. I'm not a spellcaster, and anyway, spells aren't subtle enough. Beating someone over the dead also seems likely to get me kicked out of the party.

Poison it is.

Contact poison is easy; I can just put some on something and subtly brush up against someone. Even better, wear gloves and don't take them off when shaking hands. Most of the time I won't even need to make a touch attack.

Ingested poison is fairly good; I just need to be alone with a drink.

The tricky bit is injury poison. I need to deal a point of damage to someone without them noticing. How can I go about this?

Eldariel
2010-09-01, 01:06 PM
I need to deal a point of damage to someone without them noticing.

Mosquito's Bite skill trick in Complete Scoundrel sorta-kinda works. Of course, arranging them to step on something sharp or get a shrapnel from wood or some such also works.

Kaww
2010-09-01, 01:26 PM
I think that a needle is also a good way to use poison. It should do nonlethal dmg, so the target may not notice it. If played right this might be the easiest way, difficult to spot too...

HMS Invincible
2010-09-01, 01:37 PM
There are actually DMs who allow easy access to lethal and easily usable poisons? Then again, I understand that having someone die of poison in their sleep the next day while the PCs have already left town is hardly heroic.

tiercel
2010-09-01, 01:37 PM
Well part of the answer to this question is also going to depend on how, mechanically, you're going to put them to sleep using poison. Either you can go straight for "unconsciousness" as a poison effect, or you will have to try to reduce one of their mental ability scores to 0 (Con will kill them and Str and Dex will leave them helpless but awake, which may or may not be good enough for your purposes).

Now we're into the "what poisons are accessible to you" territory, because if you want to go straight for "unconsciousness", drow poison (and hence injury) is your only Core choice for causing it up front.

If you don't mind waiting a minute, oil of taggit is right up your alley for what you're looking for, as a subtle ingested sleep poison, with a higher DC than drow poison to boot. (Plus, if the poison takes a minute to kick in, it may not be quite as obvious what the source of the poison is -- better for you.)

If you don't mind just trying to beat down one of their mental stats, id moss is a pretty good choice if they aren't a wizard or something. At least with the Core poisons, it seems like mental stat damage is pretty much the province of ingested or inhaled (don't forget those! -- though they are probably less discreet than ingested poisons, they're probably easier than sneaking in a point of damage) poisons.

Bulwer
2010-09-01, 01:43 PM
I think that a needle is also a good way to use poison. It should do nonlethal dmg, so the target may not notice it. If played right this might be the easiest way, difficult to spot too...

Good idea. I bet I could sell a DM on some combination of C.Scoundrel's false scabbard tip and surprise weapon, along with C.Adventurers weapon capsule. I'd still take normal poison application risks, but I could do the application and delivery with subtlety.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-01, 01:47 PM
There are actually DMs who allow easy access to lethal and easily usable poisons? Then again, I understand that having someone die of poison in their sleep the next day while the PCs have already left town is hardly heroic.

No one is claiming heroics here.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-01, 02:03 PM
Diminutive? fine? construct that looks like a big bug? Sleight of hand check and food? :)

Person_Man
2010-09-01, 02:46 PM
1) Use Disguise to make yourself look like your most bitter rival.
2) Use Diplomacy and/or Bluff to convince a patsy to poison your target for you.
3) Profit!!!

Daelen
2010-09-01, 02:50 PM
If you have access to classes out of Eberron and this isn't something that needs to happen before you can level up or anything... the Black Dog PrC is one of my favorite ways to poison people

Ravens_cry
2010-09-01, 02:55 PM
Attend a banquet as a servant, poisoning everything, but putting the antidote in everyone's bowl EXCEPT your target. This works best in a culture where everyone eats from their own dish and don't share a common bowl.
If you are lucky enough to have a target with a conveniently deadly allergy, make use of it. Could Bestow Curse give a food allergy?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-01, 02:56 PM
Poison the food! the food! :) :)

Ravens_cry
2010-09-01, 03:00 PM
More original idea. Put the poison, a contact poison, on the chair seat. If this person is the leader of the house, NO ONE is going to sit in that seat, EVER, except the target. Or on their private throne, if you take my meaning.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-01, 03:04 PM
More original idea. Put the poison, a contact poison, on the chair seat. If this person is the leader of the house, NO ONE is going to sit in that seat, EVER, except the target. Or on their private throne, if you take my meaning.

Poisoning his clothes would be a fun way if the guy dresses specifically for something.

Ormagoden
2010-09-01, 03:07 PM
I think the classic bucket on top of the door trick will work for this...


What should we fill it with? Oh I know! Aboleth mucus!

Ravens_cry
2010-09-01, 03:11 PM
Poisoning his clothes would be a fun way if the guy dresses specifically for something.
For a priest or courtly nobility with a special function, this would be brilliant.
I approve. :smallamused:

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-01, 03:16 PM
Remember if you want to KILL them, do con damage! lots and lots of con damage! from multiple sources!

Also read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

Kaww
2010-09-01, 04:33 PM
Then again, I understand that having someone die of poison in their sleep the next day while the PCs have already left town is hardly heroic.

I think that you can find the answer to that (and any moral dilemma too) in the tittle...


Poison the food! the food! :) :)

Don's waste food. Never, or you will make me kill a kitten.


I think the classic bucket on top of the door trick will work for this...

What should we fill it with? Oh I know! Aboleth mucus!

This owns, the only problem I can see is the rich guy having a pool...

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-01, 04:41 PM
Will the rich guy somehow have someone around him who can cast breathe water? And will he a.) get to the pool, and b.) get the casting of it in time?

herrhauptmann
2010-09-01, 04:48 PM
Didn't 1st/2nd edition have rules for multipart poisons? Like none of the ingredients of the poison was poisonous by itself (even made it through spells to detect poison), but if you mix them in some way, they become effective.
example: 3 part poison.
-Contact ingredient on his clothes
-Ingested ingredient in dinner (food, drink, whatever)
-Inhaled ingredient: Soak the candlewicks in his room in the ingredient, then as the night goes on, the burning candles fill the room with the ingredient.

Now if you've done it right, only someone who has received all 3 ingredient will be poisoned. Of course if your target is a rich man who decided to bed the maid who laid out his clothes, she could be in trouble. She'll have the contact from the clothes, and inhaled from the 'afterparty,' if she scrounges leftovers from the kitchen that night, she would also get poisoned.

mcl01
2010-09-01, 04:56 PM
Hire an NPC to do it. An adept with a scroll of True Strike should be able to pull it off well.

Kyrthain
2010-09-01, 05:08 PM
While not exactly subtle, I have just come up with a roundabout way to poison someone without getting blamed. Also involves casting, so might not be up your alley

Step 1: Find someone you dislike, preferably someone with a poor Will save. Dominate them.

Step 2: Have Neutralize poison cast on them immediately before the party.

Step 3: During the party, have the patsy smash an eggshell of Burnt othur fumes at the target's feet, and then consume half a vial labeled "Antidote". Have him declare that the target has been poisoned, and that he will only give him the antidote if X condition is met. If the target does what is requested, the patsy will indeed give up the 'antidote'

Step 4: The 'antidote' is Black lotus extract.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-01, 05:12 PM
Hire an NPC to do it. An adept with a scroll of True Strike should be able to pull it off well.
Yeah, but you need some way of making sure they don't talk.
As it is written, two may keep a secret when one is dead.

Rixx
2010-09-01, 05:18 PM
Poisoner Rogues from the Pathfinder APG trade Improved Uncanny Dodge for the ability to use Craft (Alchemy) to change a poison's delivery method.

MachineWraith
2010-09-01, 05:41 PM
Yeah, but you need some way of making sure they don't talk.
As it is written, two may keep a secret when one is dead.

I'm AFB at the moment, but can Delay Poison be cast preemptively? You could use the dominate-a-patsy routine, substituting Delay Poison for Neutralize Poison. It would run out, and they'd get nailed with the black lotus extract.

Dust
2010-09-01, 05:44 PM
Convince your target that you are a practicing acupuncturist - a ceremonial holistic healing and relaxation technique from the far east.

Hire a thug to attack your target.

Reinboom
2010-09-01, 05:46 PM
This owns, the only problem I can see is the rich guy having a pool...

Aboleth mucus doesn't say that you can suddenly breath in water. :smalltongue:

Kyrthain
2010-09-01, 05:52 PM
I'm AFB at the moment, but can Delay Poison be cast preemptively? You could use the dominate-a-patsy routine, substituting Delay Poison for Neutralize Poison. It would run out, and they'd get nailed with the black lotus extract.

Can do. (BTW, they'd be nailed with Burnt othur fumes and Black lotus. Both of which target con)

Force
2010-09-01, 06:21 PM
If you can get into shadows or have a convenient bit of invisibility, a blowpipe & darts might work.

fryplink
2010-09-01, 06:54 PM
Why do you need them unconscious? for interrogation? for capture? to be kept out of the way?

mcl01
2010-09-01, 07:25 PM
Yeah, but you need some way of making sure they don't talk.
As it is written, two may keep a secret when one is dead.

Indeed. Once they attack, you have a reason to retaliate and silence them.

Ernir
2010-09-01, 07:36 PM
Hmm. Ingested poisons are easy, but injury ones are hard?

Put some ground glass in his food along with the injury poison. He probably won't notice anything but his gums being sore, but the microscopic lacerations should be enough to let in the poison.

liquid150
2010-09-01, 07:37 PM
Give your party a slide presentation of your last vacation. That should do the trick.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-01, 07:53 PM
I'd say more details are necessary. planning a proper poisoning needs solid details. Why do you need them to sleep, can you just kill them and get the same effect? Do you need them to fall asleep at the party, after the party, what? Do you just need them out of the way, are you abducting them, etc? Does it have to be an injury poison, and why? Do you have teammates and support? Are you a guest at the party, a gate-crasher, part of the help? Does the target know you or your allies? I'm assuming you don't want to get caught poisoning someone? Are there guest at the party that could easily identify the target was poisoned, and does that matter?

Working on the assumptions that you need the target to fall asleep at the party, it has to be an injury poison, and you need it done soon, I'd say a needle would work, but is a bit odd.

Misdirection is your friend here. You could "slip" with a piece of silverware in your hand and "accidentally" injuring your target. In this case I'd reccomend using Blue Whinnis, as it has a slightly higher DC than Drow poison, and it gives you a minute to excuse yourself after apologizing. Additionally, the initial Con damage could convince the target he simply isn't feeling well, and excuse himself briefly, giving you a larger window for...whatever.

Magdela
2010-09-01, 07:59 PM
Here is what you do:
While at the banquet you accidentally spill your drink on him. Invite him over to your house and get him to change into a new shirt. Offer him a chance to sleep over for the night because it would take a considerable amount of time to get elseware. During the night, simply let him sleep. In the morning offer to call for a cab to get him home. Once he is inside the cab and tries to close his door, he will find out to his horror that the inside cab door handle is covered in CONTACT POISON!!!

Ravens_cry
2010-09-01, 08:40 PM
Here is what you do:
While at the banquet you accidentally spill your drink on him. Invite him over to your house and get him to change into a new shirt. Offer him a chance to sleep over for the night because it would take a considerable amount of time to get elseware. During the night, simply let him sleep. In the morning offer to call for a cab to get him home. Once he is inside the cab and tries to close his door, he will find out to his horror that the inside cab door handle is covered in CONTACT POISON!!!
Far too many people who can talk. After all, you would need to arrange for that particular cab at that time to come to your door and that particular cab to have contact poison smeared on the inside handle at that particular time.
It sounds too finicky, as well as too many potential guilty consciences.

fryplink
2010-09-01, 08:53 PM
How is collateral damage viewed by the party? Inhaled poison dispersed through the whole room would knock everyone without an antidote out. Then you could collect your target and leave letting everyone else wake up.

drow poison shot from hidden hand crossbows (regular hand crossbow shouldn't kill).

a barrel filled with explosives with tiny wooden beads soaking (along with the barrel) in drow poison. The bead are so small they inflict negligible damage, and deliver the toxin.

If you need just him poisoned, can I suggest filling your goblet with invisibility potion, drink in an out of the way area and then just club him cold?

jumpet
2010-09-01, 09:05 PM
1) get a delay poison spell on your victim. ie spiked drinked with potion of delay poison
2) Fill victim with many an ingested poison, enough to ensure a failed save/s.
3) wait for delay poison spell to run out or dispel the pathetic little potion.
4) instant death, sleep whatever ... depending on poison. This way the victim doesn't know he's getting poisoned until its far too late.

Magdela
2010-09-01, 09:28 PM
If you need just him poisoned, can I suggest filling your goblet with invisibility potion, drink in an out of the way area and then just club him cold?
Far too complex. :smalltongue:

Why not just drink the invisibility potion instead of putting it into a goblet?

MammonAzrael
2010-09-01, 09:36 PM
Far too complex. :smalltongue:

Why not just drink the invisibility potion instead of putting it into a goblet?

Style. Extra text here!

fryplink
2010-09-01, 09:41 PM
Far too complex. :smalltongue:

Why not just drink the invisibility potion instead of putting it into a goblet?

That way no one see's you drink a potion, they actually SEE you at the party, and you wouldn't have to go fumbling for your hidden vial. Just find a dark coner, gulp down your drink then club im'.

If you take your potions straight you have to disappear from sight long enough to go through you clothing and uncover the potion and aviod being see with it.

Not a big deal, really, just extra backside-covering. getting the special goblet would require a guy in the back. But you're operating as a group, so that won't be too hard

Magdela
2010-09-01, 10:35 PM
That way no one see's you drink a potion, they actually SEE you at the party, and you wouldn't have to go fumbling for your hidden vial. Just find a dark coner, gulp down your drink then club im'.

If you take your potions straight you have to disappear from sight long enough to go through you clothing and uncover the potion and aviod being see with it.

Not a big deal, really, just extra backside-covering. getting the special goblet would require a guy in the back. But you're operating as a group, so that won't be too hard
Wait, are you walking in with a vial in your hand? When do you add it? Is it in the punch?

Same applies to adding it to said goblet. :P



Style. Extra text here!
Then do it my way for maximum style and rube goldbergness. :P

fryplink
2010-09-01, 10:40 PM
Wait, are you walking in with a vial in your hand? When do you add it? Is it in the punch?

Same applies to adding it to said goblet. :P



Your teammate in the back is a waiter, he makes your drink custom.

Magdela
2010-09-01, 10:50 PM
Your teammate in the back is a waiter, he makes your drink custom.
Have the teamate give you the drink, which had the potion in it. After that, you hand the target the drink. When he drinks it and turns invisible make your best attempts to follow him around and separate him(from the crowd...the alternative is messy). Knock him out and hide him in plain sight. When he is knocked out use a needle tipped with drow CONTACT POISON!!!

Edit: (not my idea) Give them a cake and a drink covered drow poison. Bluff them that the antidote is in the cake and that the drink was poisoned. In reality the cake is poisonous and the drink was actually filled with alchemists fire.

FelixG
2010-09-01, 10:55 PM
Coat a small bit of glass with drow poison, do this 3-4 times, drop those glass shards into the persons drink, chances are they will get cut by the sharp little glass and introduce the poison

Xyk
2010-09-01, 11:35 PM
Emulate the TV shows and slip it in his punch. It always seems to work out well for them.

HMS Invincible
2010-09-02, 12:17 AM
You guys have it easy. Our rogue in my group has to pay out the ass for 5-15 ongoing poison damage. That's only if he make's a separate attack roll vs fort, which the monsters always save against. And he risks poisoning himself and carrying around illegal and dangerous banned goods in cities.

Cespenar
2010-09-02, 12:35 AM
Injury poison? A single rose can very well deliver it.

TheVileVillain
2010-09-02, 07:04 PM
Step 1: Buy a scroll of grease (or have the wizard cast it).

Step 2: Poison the edge of the chair or table with Carrion Brain crawler Juice (There is a feat in Drow of the Underdark that will increase the DC if you make it yourself) and hide them in an oppurtune place.

Step 3: Right when he is walking to his chair, Have a party member dressed as a server walk by him with a giant bowl of hot oily soup and spill it, and cast Grease under the table. if you time it right know one will notice the Grease spell and he will fall face first on to the table or chair.

Step 4: If he fails both his saves he is paralyzed for 2d4 minutes (not much of a stretch for someone who hits their head like that) and if not he'll be none the wiser.

If you need more than 2-4 minutes then you might need to try something else.

dsmiles
2010-09-02, 07:07 PM
Might I recommend Pale Designs (http://dragonwing.net/Pale_Designs.htm)?

fryplink
2010-09-02, 07:27 PM
Injury poison? A single rose can very well deliver it.

THATS IT! present him/her a gift of perfume/cologne with inhaled and contact poisons in them, which he sprays on himself several days later, divorcing yourself from the crime