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View Full Version : Command Undead - Overpowred?



aeauseth
2010-09-01, 01:39 PM
So I used Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandundead.htm) for the 1st time today. It was on a mindless CR9/10 Undead/Ooze creature. It got no will save and I can control it for 7 days. In theory I could re-cast Control Undead 6 days from now and have it under my control indefinitely.

I realize the creature could die or something.

My Dungeon Master wasn’t too happy that I commanded “his creature”. The party was also a bit skeptical about the power of this spell. I let everyone read it several times and they all agreed I used the spell as written.

I just wanted to ask this forum to make sure I was using the spell properly. It does seem a bit overpowered that a 2nd level spell can (in theory) command a 20+ HD unintelligent undead creature, and the creature gets no save.

Ormagoden
2010-09-01, 01:46 PM
No, you got it right.

Your DM should have been more careful not to thrown an unintelligent undead at you if you had that spell...

Don't worry I'm sure he'll fiat kill it when you actually start using it effectively.

I suggest stuffing it in the nearest extra dimensional space you have and saving it for just the right time.

JaxGaret
2010-09-01, 02:26 PM
I suggest stuffing it in the nearest extra dimensional space you have and saving it for just the right time.

Seconding this recommendation. It also avoids any potential problems that might arise from traveling with an undead creature, particularly a mindless undead ooze.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-01, 02:31 PM
And you can invite random commoners to go for a swim in your 'Portable Pool' for giggles when the Paladin's back is turned. Unless you don't have a Paladin, in which case do it all the time.

Boci
2010-09-01, 04:09 PM
And you can invite random commoners to go for a swim in your 'Portable Pool' for giggles when the Paladin's back is turned. Unless you don't have a Paladin, in which case do it all the time.

PC: Come on, you'll love it in the extra dimensional. It is really a special expirience.
Commoner: I dunno. Fred, Tracy and George all went in and haven't been seen since.
PC: Exactly. That is how good it is.

Munchkin-Masher
2010-09-01, 05:06 PM
And you can invite random commoners to go for a swim in your 'Portable Pool' for giggles when the Paladin's back is turned. Unless you don't have a Paladin, in which case do it all the time.

Will there be slides?

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-01, 05:07 PM
My potent psychic power tells me that somewhere in the world, there will be a campaign without any unintelligent undead for the years to come.

aeauseth
2010-09-01, 05:44 PM
I suggest stuffing it in the nearest extra dimensional space you have and saving it for just the right time.

That's a great idea, however this a huge (15x15) Blood Amniote (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84737.jpg). I believe our portable hole is 10x10x10. I suppose if we empty out the portable hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#portableHole) we could "squeeze" him in there.:smalltongue: Hmm, wonder if a disgruntled DM would allow such a thing?:smallconfused:

We are in a "chase" campaign and I was thinking about constructing a make-shift sled for the party to ride on. Then force the Blood Amniote to drag the sled (with all party members) along for a two day trip to a castle. We should be able to sleep on the sled while the Blood Amniote drags us along. He's a strong bugger so shouldn't slow down & undead never need to rest. A typical party only travels for 8 hours/day. Now we can travel 24 hours/day, tripling our overland travel distance. We should be able to "catch" our target soon!

Shade Kerrin
2010-09-01, 11:26 PM
Tell your GM that he has access to the Command Undead spell, too.

After all, who was controlling the thing in the first place?

tiercel
2010-09-02, 03:45 AM
To be fair, there probably aren't that many high-HD unintelligent undead out there. If you really want to *create* a 20HD skeleton, for instance, you're going to have to kill a 20HD creature -- by time you can do that without putting yourself in heaps of trouble, creating a CR 8 mindless ally isn't exactly overpowered. (Making a 20 HD zombie is a lot easier, since you only need the corpse of a 10HD creature, but then you're only getting a CR 6 meat shield that moves slow and stinks to boot.)

Meanwhile you want to be careful about how much you use your new undead thrall around enemy casters, since you're only one enemy control undead or dispel magic (even the area effect version) away from adding that CR 9-10 undead ooze to your list of problems during a BBEG fight.

Also you might want to check the movement speed on your new victim there -- oozes aren't known for their speed. (The fastest Core ooze clocks in at only 20', and you're unlikely to get your ooze up on a mount. I'm also guessing a portable hole is still a bit out of your price range at your level.)

Basically, you got lucky. Control undead's no-save power is generally limited by how powerful mindless undead can actually get, and in Core that pretty much tops out at CR 8 -- you just did better because your DM got cute and tried throwing an undead ooze at you.

Grifthin
2010-09-02, 04:55 AM
I did the opposite - one of our players busted out 2 zombie owl bears.
My half fiend cleric enemies just took control of them. Realized - Command undead is bugger, and if you raise em you better be able to control em.

FelixG
2010-09-02, 05:06 AM
PC: Come on, you'll love it in the extra dimensional. It is really a special expirience.
Commoner: I dunno. Fred, Tracy and George all went in and haven't been seen since.
PC: Exactly. That is how good it is.

Paladin: Turns to the party "Hey we have a pool in the portable hole?"
Caster: 0.o "yes why dont you go for a swim?"
Paladin dives in
Caster: snickers

hamishspence
2010-09-02, 05:09 AM
To be fair, there probably aren't that many high-HD unintelligent undead out there. If you really want to *create* a 20HD skeleton, for instance, you're going to have to kill a 20HD creature -- by time you can do that without putting yourself in heaps of trouble, creating a CR 8 mindless ally isn't exactly overpowered. (Making a 20 HD zombie is a lot easier, since you only need the corpse of a 10HD creature, but then you're only getting a CR 6 meat shield that moves slow and stinks to boot.)

Desecrate + Altar, + Draconomicon, are good ways to get very high level mindless undead early. Skeletal Dragons & Zombie Dragons, unlike normal skeletons and zombies, have no HD cap.

With the right domain, a cleric could abuse Polymorph Any Object to get corpses of whatever creature they want.

tiercel
2010-09-02, 11:40 AM
Desecrate + Altar, + Draconomicon, are good ways to get very high level mindless undead early. Skeletal Dragons & Zombie Dragons, unlike normal skeletons and zombies, have no HD cap.

With the right domain, a cleric could abuse Polymorph Any Object to get corpses of whatever creature they want.

....huh, OK, that's a little weird. Though to be fair, if you are using Draconomicon, zombie dragons don't get double HD like normal zombies do, so if you want a 25HD zombie dragon you gotta kill a 25HD dragon, which probably keeps anyone from making very high level mindless undead too early. Still. Yes. If you use the Draconomicon variant, you are allowing a new rule which could, conceivably, allow control undead to become a more powerful spell than it normally would be, since under those rules dragons are soooo much better than all other creatures that even their violated corpses are better than other dead bodies....

One could probably argue that using polymorph any object to create corpses/skeletons is potentially among the least of your worries (the greater one being, that you've allowed this silly spell into your game) -- but there are probably grounds to say that it actually *can't* be abused to make super-high HD targets for animate dead.

Polymorph any object states that "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine." Dragonhide is also a special material, like mithral or adamantine, so creating a dragon corpse is probably right out. If you're using Draconomicon, it's arguable that dragon bones/teeth/claws are also special materials (see Dragonbone Bow, Dragonfang Weapon,etc.), so that nixes the skeleton too.

While PAO could conceivably generate non-valuable corpses, AFAIK only dragon bodies break the 20HD limit on skeletons and zombies, and only if you use Draconomicon. Presumably there are more effective abuses of PAO than creating targets for animate dead that only give you 20HD zombies (CR 6) or skeletons (CR 8), given that you are at least a 15th level full caster.

The prospect of an army of 20HD skeletons might be one thing, except that animate dead and rebuking have HD limits -- how many command undead spells do you want to keep running at once? I think I might be more worried about how to adjudicate PAO turning big rocks into stone golems or what have you....

hamishspence
2010-09-02, 03:41 PM
Polymorph any object states that "This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine." Dragonhide is also a special material, like mithral or adamantine, so creating a dragon corpse is probably right out. If you're using Draconomicon, it's arguable that dragon bones/teeth/claws are also special materials (see Dragonbone Bow, Dragonfang Weapon,etc.), so that nixes the skeleton too.

It was the "Get more bang for your bones" article in Dragon 324 that suggested things like turning dead squirrels into dead dragons.

Similarly, if you have a low level dragon corpse, you can PAO it into the corpse of a much more powerful dragon- say, a prismatic or force dragon corpse.