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Honeko
2010-09-01, 03:55 PM
So, me and my DM were talking about a bunch of different topics and we came up with some really interesting ideas and a few questions. Thought I'd share a few.

First: Steam engines? How do they work? How does the water get heated? How do you stop the whole frame from burning? We thought you could just use create water do make the water, and then have a Heat Metal'd piece of metal to boil the water, but then how are you going to keep the rest of the metal from being heated? This engine would more or less be a backpack on a suit of armor, that being the basic idea - obviously, not fully fleshed out yet.

Next: Playing two characters at once, One - the Body - a medium or large construct, either steam-powered, clockwork, or a combination of the two, and Two - the Mind - an Awakened monkey piloting the construct, doing repairs, and being in the chest of the Body. So how would damage be dealt to the monkey? And what class would be good for the monkey? Some kind of Mechanic with crafting, knowledge, and profession?

Any ideas on these topic?
Thanks.

Toliudar
2010-09-01, 04:32 PM
The first idea can be dealt with using an extradimensional space. Put something that creates water on a regular basis and something that's always hot inside a handy haversack. Cap the haversack with a valve and hose. In theory, you get some kind of steam power, or a steam weapon. Clearly, if left unchecked, this becomes silly, but the integration of magic and physics is often silly and fun.

The second idea might best be mapped by a class like Artificer, or the Maester prestige class from Complete Arcane. Or, potentially, just the Craft Construct feat from MM 3. The Body is a medium-sized construct. For balance purposes, it might be best if the monkey's cockpit was not entirely enclosed within the Body, so that it can both use and be the target of effects.

subject42
2010-09-01, 04:35 PM
I would assume that the monkey always has some form of cover and/or concealment. Bonus points if he can get mindsight and permanent scrying or chain of eyes on his cohort.

Kaww
2010-09-01, 04:56 PM
Well steam engine has the following principle:

1) A container with a single opening

2) Some sort of CONTINUAL source of heat

3) I'm not a native speaker so I don't know how you call it, but let us say a turbine which spins as the steam leaves through the opening

Now 2 is usually under 1 (basic fluid motion is hot-up, cold-down) since the hottest part is the one at the bottom you have a continual motion of the given fluid. Steam builds up and exits via the opening on 1 and it spins the 3 which is connected to whateveryouwantthethingtodo (4) via leather belt that transfers the energy to 4.

Now the technical issues:
1) Heat metal lasts for 7 rounds which is not enough time to produce some massive effect for your contraption.
2) You have to have HIGH, REALLY HIGH Intelligence, craft, knowledge engineering etc
3) First steam powered contraption was invented few centuries BC, the next one was made in 18th century (~2k years, with the idea already out there)
4) So in retrospect you have to be a gnome/dwarf lunatic with 20+ int that has dedicated his life to watching what steam does and how it does it, preferably bard/maester or artificer/maester

Now no.2 humanity has a tendency for stupid ideas so I see no problem with this one, and it is cool...

Honeko
2010-09-04, 03:48 PM
Well, we decided that the monkey will wear a modified suit of Clockwork Armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a) that the monkey can repair on his own but has to have someone else upgrade for him. Modifications include if you fail the check to set the armor properly by half or more you don't gain the +4 strength and still get the -4 Dex, and some other stuff we are still working out like how often the controls must be set. Repairs are going to be based on Knowledge and Craft skills. And he's going to be a cleric, as the party is going to be small and I offered to play main heals. I think I'll go Cloistered Cleric just for the Knowledge skills and extra skill points. So I'm looking for ways to improved the armor besides the normal adding enhancements/qualities/abilities (like making it Ghost Touch) or making it an item familiar which it most likely will be.

Any thoughts on this would be great. Thanks.

Greenish
2010-09-04, 03:52 PM
Steam power seems like a clumsy workaround when magic can generate free energy (enchant a wheel to turn by binding an elemental to it, or have a swarm of skeletal rats run inside a running wheel).

Halaster
2010-09-04, 04:01 PM
For the steam engine, the most important thing is obviously not heating it (you could simply use coal like everyone else) but making it portable. The reason why cars and planes only got going with internal combustion is that steam engines are hard to miniaturize. They need a great deal of water plus a large turbine to actually produce energy. Basically, the larger the paddles of the turbine are, the more power can be applied to them, since the pressure of the steam on the paddle per unit of surface does not vary. If the paddle scales up, however, the steam must, too, so you need more water to heat in order to create the steam. This gets ugly quickly and limits steam engines to such tasks as powering ships, trains and factories.

So, what you actually need is some way to make the apparatus you're planning on powering use less power. I don't know if magic exists to make stuff frictionless, but that could help. Otherwise a mixture of human and steam power might do for certain applications such as locomotion.

Alternately, if you create a magical steam perpetuum mobile, you might want to find a way to store electricity. Let the engine power a dynamo, that's low-energy enough for a portable engine. Then charge a battery (those were known in ancient Babylon) and use the stored energy in a burst for whatever you need.

Of course, if we're talking extradimensional spaces, size hardly matters and sudden energy surges could be managed with pumping plants (pump up 10.000 liters of water over 10 hours, then let flow out in 1 hour) or some such.

Honeko
2010-09-05, 04:27 AM
Steam power seems like a clumsy workaround when magic can generate free energy (enchant a wheel to turn by binding an elemental to it, or have a swarm of skeletal rats run inside a running wheel).

But what happens when the character can't use magic himself or can't afford the cost to have someone cast it for him? The steam engine Idea was an attempt at how a Tinker Gnome would be able to create a type of power armor using the typical D&D setting, steam power seemed the logical choice. I was curious on the realistic mechanics involved.

Thanks for all the info.

Kami2awa
2010-09-05, 05:40 AM
One issue is that steam engines are very heavy because they contain a lot of liquid water, and have to be very solidly constructed to withstand the internal steam pressure. This is why they aren't used in fast vehicles or helicopters, for example.

Amoren
2010-09-05, 05:59 AM
There are probably better ideas for power besides steam in the DnD world. One thing that comes to mind is Alchemists Spark which, if I remember, is sort of a grenade-like electrical burst thing. Now, as far as I know, alchemy itself isn't inherently magical (the materials they use might be however), so this electrical burst chemical is either some really condensed electrical storer, or some sort of magical liquid that does the job.

It might be possible to rig some sort of device that allows small amounts of this material to react at a time, drawing a steady charge from it that you can use to power motors and such, or perhaps create a similar chemical with lesser effects of solute the alchemist spark to the needed levels. You now have a highly condensed portable battery to use, and all it takes to refuel is visiting the local alchemist and requesting a few viles of alchemist's spark!

Edit: There's even more advantages in the DnD world over our own to create steam punk items. We had to deal with pretty primitive metals (mostly iron or steal alloys), which also meant we had to use heavy and clunky iron steam engines that could withstand the temperatures of the steam and what not for significant lengths of time. However, in the DnD verse, we have metals such as mithril (which is just as strong as steel but much lighter), or even wood that's just as durable as iron.

Hell, you can even use the same enchantment for an ever burning torch, upsize it several orders of magnitude, and use it as the fire source for your steam.

Greenish
2010-09-05, 06:31 AM
But what happens when the character can't use magic himself or can't afford the cost to have someone cast it for him? The steam engine Idea was an attempt at how a Tinker Gnome would be able to create a type of power armor using the typical D&D setting, steam power seemed the logical choice. I was curious on the realistic mechanics involved.Realistically, the engine and all the mechanisms needed to distribute the power for many smaller operations (moving joints and such) would be too heavy and clumsy to do anything, and that's not even counting the constant need for fuel.

Consider this: a steam engine provides a single source of constant torque. The gears and mechanisms needed to harness that torque for complicated back-and forth operations such as walking or moving the arms would be a nightmare to even try to imagine, and having said appendages respond to your commands…

So no, realistic it ain't, so aim for cool. :smallcool:

The_Admiral
2010-09-05, 06:33 AM
i thought steam engines used pistons instead of paddles

Halaster
2010-09-05, 08:43 AM
Both work. The problems remain the same, however. More power would require either larger or more cylinders, expanding the size of the engine.

Of course, as mentioned, fantastic materials like mithril and ironwood might make it feasible, as a workable steam engine might weigh a lot less.

It always depends on what you want to power. A small compressor to use in firing an air-powered gun might be portable enough. Likewise a dynamo to give you electrical light in the dungeon. A set of power armor - not so much.

The_Admiral
2010-09-05, 08:53 AM
How about making some sort of trap that cast electrical spells to power a power armor btw i thought paddles were more inefficient than pistons

Halaster
2010-09-05, 09:41 AM
The trap would need to have practically infinite charges to achieve that, and I don't think the rules support that.

The major advantage of a turbine is that it doesn't require a translation of an up-and-down motion into a rotating one, making the gears simpler and less demanding in maintenance. It's a little bulkier than the piston engine, but actually weighs less. Nuclear power plants use turbines, because they work so well, and space is not an issue there.

The_Admiral
2010-09-05, 09:43 AM
Then why am i always hearing about create food traps feeding people?

The Big Dice
2010-09-05, 02:48 PM
Has nobody ever heard of the Infernal Combustion Engine?

Use a Fire Elemental as a source of heat, a Water Elemental as a source of water and build the whole thing out of Adamantine. You get one magical steam engine that never needs to be refilled with fuel or water. Use it to power pistons for that magi-powered steampunk feel or if you want it to do engine work, or a turbine if you want it to generate electricity.

Greenish
2010-09-05, 02:51 PM
Has nobody ever heard of the Infernal Combustion Engine?

Use a Fire Elemental as a source of heat, a Water Elemental as a source of water and build the whole thing out of Adamantine. You get one magical steam engine that never needs to be refilled with fuel or water. Use it to power pistons for that magi-powered steampunk feel or if you want it to do engine work, or a turbine if you want it to generate electricity.That's neither infernal nor a combustion engine, though.

And for a simpler solution, you could bind an earth elemental to a wheel to keep it turning.

Marnath
2010-09-05, 03:08 PM
Hell, you can even use the same enchantment for an ever burning torch, upsize it several orders of magnitude, and use it as the fire source for your steam.

No, you can't. Continual Flame only produces light, not heat.

The Big Dice
2010-09-05, 03:15 PM
That's neither infernal nor a combustion engine, though.

And for a simpler solution, you could bind an earth elemental to a wheel to keep it turning.

Semantics. Why ruin a good idea and a great name just because the terminology is a little off?

In practical terms, why is any culture that uses magic going to bother emulating technology when they can simply use magical solutions to the problems that led to technology being developed?

James Watt would never need to invent the steam engine if he could contract a wizard to ensure that his mine tunnels don't fill with water. Telford would never have to develop the suspension bridge if a magically powered ferry, or even a magically constructed bridge, was already in place at the Menai Staits. Brunel would never need to build the SS Great Britain if it was already possible to use Wall of Iron to make the hull and Elementals of various types to provide motive power.

After ll, why bother with an engine when you can have a Water and and Air Elemental push your ship in any direction, regardless of prevailing conditions, tide and current?

Greenish
2010-09-05, 03:26 PM
Semantics. Why ruin a good idea and a great name just because the terminology is a little off?Because I'm a small-souled nitpicker. :smallamused:

In practical terms, why is any culture that uses magic going to bother emulating technology when they can simply use magical solutions to the problems that led to technology being developed?My point exactly.

Jallorn
2010-09-05, 03:27 PM
I could see a container made of psionic crystal, enchanted to continually cast heat metal on a lump or layer of metal inside the heating chamber.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-05, 03:32 PM
as far as fantastic materials go, you can't go wrong with glassteel for this sort of thing. Light as mithral and strong as adamantine.

Ormur
2010-09-05, 04:56 PM
Didn't somebody here make calculations that indicated a wall of fire powered steam turbines were one of the most efficient ways of generating power in D&D. Somewhere in the order of megawatts at least. Of course efficiency depends on more than the power source. One thing a D&D world probably lacks is the sort of engineering that make modern machines efficient even though special materials might help. So it's probably best to apply magic as directly as possible.