Why is Yoda (from Star Wars, obviously) a Jerk?

[Green-Shirt Q]

...Okay, this is a very, very, VERY weird thread to start. Um...Where to begin...:smallconfused:

See, here's the senario. My father and I were having a casual family discussion in front of the TV. Completely out of the blue, he asks me why Yoda is a jerk, and requests that I spend time making a list of all the reasons he's a jerk.

Well, he didn't use that exact wording. But I'm afriad the actually wording wouldn't be approved on these forums. Not that it matters that much...

At first I thought it was a joke. That is strange enough as it is, as my father is usually a pretty serious guy. And this came out totally at random, and is a pretty stange question, I think. However, a week or so passes and my father asks me how the list is coming along. He actually expects me to do it. :smalleek:

I have absoluetly no idea why he wants this list, but I can't really make the list myself. Here's my main problems. 1: I'm lazy and 2: I don't really like Star Wars. I haven't seen all the movies and I'm only half paying attention when I did see some of them. I don't know enough to answer this question, so I'm asking for help here.

So please answer the question: Why is Yoda a jerk? Please, if it's not too much to ask, list examples of jerkiness behavior he has shown, whether it's from the movies or in cartoons or in videogames, I don't care. Just if you can help me make up a list of reasons, I'd be grateful.

[comicshorse]

Deliberately lies to Luke then when called on it tries to excuse himself by saying " it was true from a certain point of view" ( which is the lamest excuse ever).

[ThePhantasm]

comicshorse, that was Ben Kenobi who said that.

I don't think Yoda is a jerk at all. I'm not sure why your Dad said that.

[VanBuren]

If anyone is a jerk, it's Mace Windu.

[comicshorse]

That was Ben Kenobi who said that.

I don't think Yoda is a jerk at all. I'm not sure why your Dad said that.

You sure ? Bugger:smalleek:

[Katana_Geldar]

Yoda isn't a jerk, he was testing Luke (four times I recall) and he failed every single one of those tests.

[Coidzor]

Are we drawing from all sources or just Episode 5?

[Drascin]

Yeah, I don't really see many moments where you could say Yoda is a jerk. Dogmatic and dangerously out of touch, maybe, you could swing for the prequels with the correct Alternate Character Interpretations and squinting, but a jerk...

[Catch]

I don't really like Star Wars.

:smallannoyed:

You might mention this to dear ol' Dad and see if that gets you off the hook. Alternatively, you could actually watch the movies and stop being wrong.

[Dr.Epic]

You sure ? Bugger:smalleek:

Yeah, I don't think Yoda even talked to Luke about his father except for when Luke asked him if Vader was his father in episode 6.

[Serenity]

Well, he was insensitive about Anakin's visions in Episode III...but that's about the only instance I can think of.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

The Dark Side your father is nearing. Avoid him you must!

[Katana_Geldar]

Before you decide on Yoda, you need to watch Empire Strikes Back and pay attention! I don't know a fan who doesn't sigh with contentment when Yoda tells Luke about the Force.

Kids these days...

[MammonAzrael]

Indeed, I can't recall Yoda ever being a jerk. A hard teacher with hard lessons, and perhaps too convinced that the Light/Dark sides of the force are essentially Good/Evil with very little gray area. But certainly not a jerk.

Have you asked your dad why he thinks Yoda is a jerk?

The only thing I can think of is your dad is trying to get you to incriminate Yoda, and jedi in general, to pull a "Join me and we can rule X as father and son!" dark side speech. If so, props to him. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

About the only thing I can think of would be training someone to be a deadly lightsaber combatant who they had doubts about from the get go and only confirmed their doubts when he was out in the field, but that's offhand and probably a different matter of discussion anyway.

Everyone's a jerk in the clone wars animated thing. I think it's the way their faces are all scrunchy from the art style which leads to... interpretations of their body language.

[Lord Blace]

About the only thing I can think of would be training someone to be a deadly lightsaber combatant who they had doubts about from the get go and only confirmed their doubts when he was out in the field, but that's offhand and probably a different matter of discussion anyway.

Everyone's a jerk in the clone wars animated thing. I think it's the way their faces are all scrunchy from the art style which leads to... interpretations of their body language.

HAHA! I see what you did there!

I've never been a Yoda fan, myself, but the best (and only) example I can give of even semi-jerkish behavior is the hypocrisy he shows in ep. 3.
"Don't worry about your chick dying, yo. It's just natural, and she'll be with the force, isn't that great? Don't mourn death or anything! LOLOLOLOL." :smallcool:
-Jedi get killed by clone troopers.-
"OH NOS, MA BUDDIES ARE DYIN'! THAT MAKES ME VISIBLY SAD AND I MOURN THEM!" :smallfrown:

At least that's how my brain reconstructed that. >.>

[RabbitHoleLost]

He gave me nightmares as a child.
That is far enough reason for me to think he's a jerk.

I'unno. I've never much liked Yoda. There's just something about him that rubs me the wrong way, but I can't think of why.

[Coidzor]

He gave me nightmares as a child.
That is far enough reason for me to think he's a jerk.

I'unno. I've never much liked Yoda. There's just something about him that rubs me the wrong way, but I can't think of why.

Is it the whole being a muppet thing?

Or possibly the whole Jedi thing?

Both of those seem like potential elephants in the room.

[Katana_Geldar]

*headdesk*

[Cespenar]

Conspiracy theory time!

Yoda let Palpatine pull his act because he knew not only that he wouldn't ultimately succeed, but also that the whole Sith business would only mean that the Republic needs the Jedi Council, all in all strengthening the Council's hand.

Because there can be no way that arguably the most powerful Jedi alive couldn't sense a Sith Lord while shaking hands with him, just because, yeah, he hides it so well.

Anyway, I think that was one of the ways Yoda could be interpreted as a jerk. :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

Yoda's not a jerk, he's old, dammit!

When nine hundred years old you reach, act as nice you will not! Now, off my swamp you will get! Lousy kids...

[ThePhantasm]

He's not a jerk. That's it. End of thread.

Seriously, what more is there to be said?

Besides this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub0nykvHRuc

This is a rather pointless discussion, and the OP hasn't returned to comment.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Is it the whole being a muppet thing?

Or possibly the whole Jedi thing?

Both of those seem like potential elephants in the room.

Labyrinth is my favorite movie ever.
Muppets are not my problem.

And, here's a secret- I drooled over Ewan!Obi Wan, and he's a Jedi. And my avatar is a Jedi, so, despite my typical Sith/Mandalorian leanings, that isn't it.
TBH, I did like him more in the original trilogy, but he did come off as a completely different character in the prequels, which just added to my general dislike.

[averagejoe]

Luke: What's in there?
Yoda: Only what you take with you.
Yoda, after Luke leaves: Oh, and some weird Darth Vader thing that's going to try to kill you then screw with you by making you think he's you, lol.

Also he tried to steal Luke's little lamp and started hitting Artoo when he couldn't have it. That was kinda jerky.

Made Obi Wan look like a punk in front of those kids in episode 2?

Man, I got nothing. All these are kind of a stretch, at best, and in actuality completely wrong as far as reasons why Yoda is a jerk.

[onasuma]

After saying training anakin was a terrible idea, he let someone else do it without blinking an eye.

[hamishspence]

As the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order- quite a few of the dubious things the Order does in the EU might be blamed on him.

The whole Iron Knights thing (a Jedi finds sapient crystals, teaches them the use of the Force- creates droid bodies for them, trains them as Jedi- they call themselves the Iron Knights- and the Order excommunicates him and the Iron Knights).

[Kobold-Bard]

There used to be 100 padawans in that class in Ep2, but Yoda got bored one day and made fight gladiator-style for his amusement. It why none of them ever backchat to him.....

Seriously though, I got nothing. Good luck Q.

[lord_khaine]

to the OP.

Challenge your father on the belief that Yoda is a jerk, and present to him a list showing why its not the case.

I belive that list would be a lot easyer to get help with?

[druid91]

Because he obviously went at least a little insane after moving to Dagobah?


Labyrinth is my favorite movie ever.
Muppets are not my problem.

And, here's a secret- I drooled over Ewan!Obi Wan, and he's a Jedi. And my avatar is a Jedi, so, despite my typical Sith/Mandalorian leanings, that isn't it.
TBH, I did like him more in the original trilogy, but he did come off as a completely different character in the prequels, which just added to my general dislike.

Is it because he went from being a character that was amusing yet still managed to be serious to being walking deux ex machina with a few,with the exception of the lost planet scene, entirely serious lines?

[Katana_Geldar]

Because he obviously went at least a little insane after moving to Dagobah?


We're supposed to think that, it was one of Yoda's tests. When Yoda is talking about training Luke he's not pretending to be insane.

[druid91]

Yes but who in their right mind would put the hero through random tests when there is a galaxy to save and he has a ghost following him around vouching for him?

[lord_khaine]

Yes but who in their right mind would put the hero through random tests when there is a galaxy to save and he has a ghost following him around vouching for him?

Because he had to be sure it was actualy the hero he was going to train?

And it was the same ghost who vouched for Darth Vader...

[LOTRfan]

Yes but who in their right mind would put the hero through random tests when there is a galaxy to save and he has a ghost following him around vouching for him?

Short Answer: He needed to be prepared.

Long Answer: The point was, he didn't think Luke was ready. He was not powerful enough to face off against Darth Vader, and he feared that if he learned the truth, he would be easily corrupted to the Dark Side. Thus explains the tests with the running through the swamp, jumping around, and lifting rocks and R2-D2 with the force. And the Darth Vader test, it was an apparition in Luke's own mind. The cavern had some sort of connection with the dark side (EU), and created the vision. Yoda knew what would happen, that Luke would be able to see what he could become if he ever did stray from the path of the Jedi.

How could he not put him through the tests when there was a galaxy to save? Sending him in untrained for some half-thought out plan would have either a) resulted in a quick death from Vader, or b) resulted in his corruption and eventual death of all the rebels (as he knew where the fleet was hiding).

[Emperor Ing]

Well...the worst thing i've seen Yoda do is make fun of Obi-wan in front of kids in Episode II, but overall I don't think Yoda's done anything that can be interpreted as jerk-like.

Overall, in my opinion, the worst you can say about Yoda is more of a comment about the Jedi Order itself than about Yoda.

[hamishspence]

Overall, in my opinion, the worst you can say about Yoda is more of a comment about the Jedi Order itself than about Yoda.

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith- Yoda states that the problem with the Jedi Order was he shaped it to refight the last war with the Sith, whereas the Sith reinvented themselves.

So- if the Jedi Order was heavily orientated by Yoda, and kept as it was because he was unwilling to let it change, he may bear a lot of the blame for its actions.

[Emperor Ing]

Can that be interpreted as something that makes Yoda a jerk, though?

[hamishspence]

Well, if he thinks it's "blasphemy" to teach inorganic beings about the Living Force- as is suggested the Jedi Order did, in the case of the Iron Knights, this might be a bit of a jerkish moment.

[Thufir]

Yeah, but when nine hundred years old you reach, set in your ways you will be.

[hamishspence]

In RotS (the novelization) Yoda's conversation with Qui-Gon's spirit involves a little self-castigation about what's happened as a result of him being so set in his ways.

[Telonius]

So, why Yoda is a jerk...

He's a high-ranking member of an organization that takes children away from their parents at an extremely young age. They are then subjected to exercises involving deadly weapons, without adequate safeguards to prevent accidents (not a single one of those younglings had any Cortosis armor). The children receive electric shocks when they fail at certain tasks. Another aspect of the training is attempting to prevent them from experiencing normal human (or alien, as the case may be) emotions such as love.

He's lazy. Confronted with the (possible) existence of a "chosen one," possibly the single most important figure to Jedi prophecies, he's content to let a subordinate who's only just attained full Jedi-hood train the boy.

Which is just as well, since he remained in his position quite a bit after his powers had started to decline. After a generally good 800-year history of training Jedi, he was unable to foresee treachery in three critical individuals very close to him - his own Padawan Dooku, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and (later) Anakin Skywalker. By not recognizing his declining capacities, he put the entire Jedi order - and the stability of the galaxy - at risk.

[hamishspence]

He's a high-ranking member of an organization that takes children away from their parents at an extremely young age. They are then subjected to exercises involving deadly weapons, without adequate safeguards to prevent accidents (not a single one of those younglings had any Cortosis armor).

Training sabers (in the EU) aren't lethal weapons- being hit by one does minimal damage. Still, they do go on to lethal weapons fairly early (typically as teenagers?)

As to Dooku and Sidious, seeing the future has limitations:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Vision

which may be why Yoda did not foresee Dooku's fall or Sidious revealing himself.

[ThePhantasm]

So, why Yoda is a jerk...

He's a high-ranking member of an organization that takes children away from their parents at an extremely young age.

The children are almost always either orphans or are given up by their parents, usually for a much better life in the Jedi Academy than what their parents could give them. Anakin is a prime example of this, and note that Qui Gon gets permission from his mother to take him with them.


They are then subjected to exercises involving deadly weapons, without adequate safeguards to prevent accidents (not a single one of those younglings had any Cortosis armor).

Don't be silly. Those are all training lightsabers which do hardly any damage at all. Training lightsabers are even more common in the EU than cortosis.


The children receive electric shocks when they fail at certain tasks. Another aspect of the training is attempting to prevent them from experiencing normal human (or alien, as the case may be) emotions such as love.

No, that is Anakin's interpretation. They are not prevented from feeling love, but are told to control their feelings and not allow their feelings to control them. Remember that JEdi are encouraged to be compassionate, etc. so in some sense they are encouraged to love.


He's lazy. Confronted with the (possible) existence of a "chosen one," possibly the single most important figure to Jedi prophecies, he's content to let a subordinate who's only just attained full Jedi-hood train the boy.

He understands the importance of Obi-Wan's final vow to Qui-Gon. He also recognizes a bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Yoda is not such a jerk that he would take someone else's apprentice because he "thinks" he would be a better Master.


Which is just as well, since he remained in his position quite a bit after his powers had started to decline. After a generally good 800-year history of training Jedi, he was unable to foresee treachery in three critical individuals very close to him - his own Padawan Dooku, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and (later) Anakin Skywalker. By not recognizing his declining capacities, he put the entire Jedi order - and the stability of the galaxy - at risk.

Yoda was not the only powerful Jedi who did not sense Sidious. The entire Jedi council, even ones who weren't "old" with "declining powers" failed to sense him. So Yoda isn't entirely to blame, and a simple mistake like this does not make him a jerk.

[Green-Shirt Q]

He's not a jerk.

This is a rather pointless discussion, and the OP hasn't returned to comment.

I know he's not a jerk. I know this is a pointless discussion. :smallsigh:

But if it's not too much to ask, Star Wars fans, could you please make interpretations? They don't have to be 100% right, okay?
For example...

So, why Yoda is a jerk...

He's a high-ranking member of an organization that takes children away from their parents at an extremely young age. They are then subjected to exercises involving deadly weapons, without adequate safeguards to prevent accidents (not a single one of those younglings had any Cortosis armor). The children receive electric shocks when they fail at certain tasks. Another aspect of the training is attempting to prevent them from experiencing normal human (or alien, as the case may be) emotions such as love.

He's lazy. Confronted with the (possible) existence of a "chosen one," possibly the single most important figure to Jedi prophecies, he's content to let a subordinate who's only just attained full Jedi-hood train the boy.

Which is just as well, since he remained in his position quite a bit after his powers had started to decline. After a generally good 800-year history of training Jedi, he was unable to foresee treachery in three critical individuals very close to him - his own Padawan Dooku, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and (later) Anakin Skywalker. By not recognizing his declining capacities, he put the entire Jedi order - and the stability of the galaxy - at risk.

Thank you for the help.

Yeah, it doesn't matter that ThePhantasm shot down every arguement, these are EXACTLY the kind of posts that help me. :smallsmile:

So yeah. Die-hard Star Wars fans? Is it too much to ask that you have a little fun in this?

[hamishspence]

Yoda's "if once you start down the dark path" speech is a little iffy given that several fallen Jedi have been redeemed- although those were in much later sources.

In the EU, Dooku speculates to himself that (given Yoda's easy parrying and even handling of Force Lightning used against him) Yoda may have dabbled in the dark side himself "if only to familiarize himself with his chosen enemy"

And in Dark Rendevous, Yoda even challenges Dooku to turn him:

"Turn me, I beg. Show me the greatness of the dark side of the Force"

Yoda comes close enough that Dooku gains a momentary insight into how foolish he is being in trying to turn Yoda- since a Dark Jedi with Yoda's power and age would be far more deadly even than Darth Sidious.


"Like this I do not, my young apprentice," he snarled in a wicked, wicked voice. "Give me my rose!"


No, that is Anakin's interpretation. They are not prevented from feeling love, but are told to control their feelings and not allow their feelings to control them. Remember that JEdi are encouraged to be compassionate, etc. so in some sense they are encouraged to love.

It isn't just Anakin's interpretation- most of the books are clear that love for the individual, especially romantic love, is frowned on. And marriage forbidden- even if physical intimacy isn't in fact forbidden.

[kpenguin]

So yeah. Die-hard Star Wars fans? Is it too much to ask that you have a little fun in this?

Fun? Star Wars? HERESY!

STAR WARS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Anyway, have you forwarded the list to your dad yet?

[Dienekes]

It isn't just Anakin's interpretation- most of the books are clear that love for the individual, especially romantic love, is frowned on. And marriage forbidden- even if physical intimacy isn't in fact forbidden.

To be fair, the implication I was getting from the Clone Wars series (specifically the episode with Obi hitting on the Mando Queen) it seems that padawans can leave before becoming Jedi, and Dooku is a testament that a Jedi can choose to leave the service and engage in their own path.

The Jedi is a religious order that believes in some respects to downplay personal desires for the greater good of the galaxy. If you don't like it, you're free to go and have a good life.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Fun? Star Wars? HERESY!

STAR WARS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Anyway, have you forwarded the list to your dad yet?

I don't think I really have enough reasons to even begin making the "Yoda-list" he's thinking of.

So no. I have not.

[hamishspence]

If Star Wars Infinities books an be taken as evidence for what characters are capable of (since the main conceit is that only one event has changed, causing a whole new timeline) then the Yoda of Infinities: A New Hope is pretty ruthless- to the point of jerkishness.

The trigger event is Luke's torpedoes detonating prematurely, and so the Death Star not blowing up.

In the book:

Yoda uses mind control (not just the Jedi Mind Trick, but full-on control) to control Tarkin, takes command of the Death Star, and (after blowing up the Imperial Fleet) crashes the Death Star into Coruscant, killing billions of people, in order to kill the Emperor:

"Coming down to see you I am. Now."

[VanBuren]

It isn't just Anakin's interpretation- most of the books are clear that love for the individual, especially romantic love, is frowned on. And marriage forbidden- even if physical intimacy isn't in fact forbidden.

And just to play Devil's Advocate, it was Anakin's love for Padme that drove him to betray Mace Windu.

[Thufir]

I know he's not a jerk. I know this is a pointless discussion. :smallsigh:


So yeah. Die-hard Star Wars fans? Is it too much to ask that you have a little fun in this?

Where's the fun in trying to prove something you know to be false? Why are you so keen to have this list of reasons for something with which you don't agree?

[Green-Shirt Q]

Where's the fun in trying to prove something you know to be false? Why are you so keen to have this list of reasons for something with which you don't agree?

I'd rather ask why not to most questions, myself.

The fun, I dunno. Using your knowledge of a very expansive mythos to create negative alternate interpretations of a character? Bending, twisting, and taking things out of context to support your arguement?

I'd be doing it myself if I knew anything about Star Wars. :smalltongue:

[HenryHankovitch]

Using the Force causes you to become mentally unstable. The Sith love their power, like to go around choking people and the like. So they tend to all become homicidal, paranoid psychopaths. The pre-episode-IV Jedi ALSO had a tendency to use their powers all the time, and it made them narrow-minded, stupid, and superstitious. This is why not a single Jedi in Eps I-III can manage to rub two sticks of common sense together.

Both Obi-Wan and Yoda, perhaps unintentionally, become used to not using the Force during their decades in hiding. This allows them to regain much of their sanity, compared to people like Vader and the Emperor. So by the time of Ep V, Yoda is actually able to come up with good advice and see the consequences of his actions; whereas Yoda in the prequels is a retarded midget who (along with everyone else) cannot recognize a threat when it comes up and kicks him in the little green nards.

[Abies]

Here's the rub about Yoda trying to take Luke's Lamp and R2 fighting him for it and why Yoda is not a jerk for hitting R2.

R2 was in on it. Actually that line can be used for just about everything regarding Luke's parentage and Jedi initiation.

R2 never had his memory wiped. He knew who Obi-Wan was, he knew who Yoda was, he even knew who Darth Vader/Anakin was. Everything R2 ever did (in ANH and ESB) was to advance Luke's journey towards becoming a Jedi. He even chose the direction towards the Lars farm when he and 3PO landed on Tattoine.

So Yoda is not a jerk for trying to beat up R2. And otherwise, he was testing Luke, or being a cuddly teacher for little kidlets, or being very cautious regarding Anakin. No being a jerk or a-hole involved at all.

[hamishspence]

And just to play Devil's Advocate, it was Anakin's love for Padme that drove him to betray Mace Windu.

That's a good example of love passing beyond attachment and becoming obsession- which even the Altisian Jedi- who marry and have children, don't approve of- attachment is fine, obsession isn't.

[RabbitHoleLost]

The children are almost always either orphans or are given up by their parents, usually for a much better life in the Jedi Academy than what their parents could give them. Anakin is a prime example of this, and note that Qui Gon gets permission from his mother to take him with them.

I don't think this is actually true.
For the most part, the children come from all walks of life- from being born of families with much wealth and power, to being orphans.
And, yes, most of the time they'll ask a parent to give their child up...but, in the end, does that make it any better?
How would you feel, knowing your parents gave you up to an organization that teaches you never to love?

[ThePhantasm]

I know he's not a jerk. I know this is a pointless discussion. :smallsigh:

But if it's not too much to ask, Star Wars fans, could you please make interpretations? They don't have to be 100% right, okay?
For example...


No need for the little yawny face. Your original post was less than clear on the fact that you want silly, nonsensical reasons for Yoda to be a jerk. It seemed like it just assumed something false.


So yeah. Die-hard Star Wars fans? Is it too much to ask that you have a little fun in this?

Indicating this in the original post, rather than saying something that seemed like "I'll be in trouble with my Dad if I don't get this impossible list", might have helped.

[Tyrant]

I don't think this is actually true.
For the most part, the children come from all walks of life- from being born of families with much wealth and power, to being orphans.
And, yes, most of the time they'll ask a parent to give their child up...but, in the end, does that make it any better?
How would you feel, knowing your parents gave you up to an organization that teaches you never to love?
Count Dooku being a decent example of someone who was not an orphan. Count (of Serenno) is a family title that he reclaimed once he left the order. (In the EU anyway), he was also aware of his background unlike most apprentices.

[hamishspence]

Ki-Adi-Mundi was one of the oldest Jedi of the mainstream Order in the pre-Clone Wars era to be trained rather than rejected, before Anakin- he was 5.

And had a family- and was allowed to marry and sire children. Because his people apparently have a serious population shortage- and need everyone they can get. He supposedly didn't get too attached though.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Ki-Adi-Mundi was one of the oldest Jedi of the mainstream Order in the pre-Clone Wars era to be trained rather than rejected, before Anakin- he was 5.

And had a family- and was allowed to marry and sire children. Because his people apparently have a serious population shortage- and need everyone they can get. He supposedly didn't get too attached though.

He also had several wives, and this is often a good method to keep onesself from becoming attached.

[Agrippa]

He also had several wives, and this is often a good method to keep onesself from becoming attached.

And he had to mourn their deaths along with those of his children in private, so the rest of the Order wouldn't find out.

[Agrippa]

How would you feel, knowing your parents gave you up to an organization that teaches you never to love?

Maybe I'd be psychologically stunted for the rest of my life and incapable of feeling any emotion higher than mild contentment, slight irritation and general indifference to others. See, he's the Old Order's greatest triumph.

[Green-Shirt Q]

No need for the little yawny face. Your original post was less than clear on the fact that you want silly, nonsensical reasons for Yoda to be a jerk. It seemed like it just assumed something false.

Well, maybe a little sense would be nice. :smalltongue:


Indicating this in the original post, rather than saying something that seemed like "I'll be in trouble with my Dad if I don't get this impossible list", might have helped.

Well, actually, I won't be in trouble or anything like that. Probably. This just seems like one really, really, REALLY weird joke taken a tad too far.

However, I would like to be able to shut him up and actually answer him, which is why I came here for help. No need to be such a buzz-kill, dude. :smalltongue:

And geez, does EVERYTHING need to be about the Original post?! Get over it! :smallwink:

[ThePhantasm]

No need to be such a buzz-kill, dude. :smalltongue:

And geez, does EVERYTHING need to be about the Original post?! Get over it! :smallwink:

I was just explaining the nature of my original response, which was to the original post. That's all. No worries.

And I'm not being a "buzz-kill". I'm stating that Yoda isn't a jerk. Which he isn't. By any stretch of the imagination. And this is from me, the guy who roots for the Empire to win in Return of the Jedi because I believe that the stability that the Empire offered was good for the galaxy. I suppose you could invent some conspiracy theory to make Yoda into a villain, but even then he wouldn't be a jerk... he just doesn't do jerky things. This is as legitimate a response to your request as any other.

[leafman]

Yoda was a jerk because it was his policies that didn't allow Anakin's mom to be freed from slavery or end slavery on Tatooine. Jedis are compassionate? Tell that to Anakin's dead mom.:smallbiggrin:

[shadow_archmagi]

his policies

Wait, so the Jedi Council personally sets and enforces the rules on backwater planets that are so cut off from the republic that they do not, in fact, USE republic credits?

[hamishspence]

No- but he could (once the Order had accepted Anakin) have figured out that leaving the only family of "The Chosen One" in slavery is a recipe for later trouble.

The Order, even if not its individual members, is wealthy- they could have sold some things, gotten the money to buy Shimi free, and sent someone to buy her off Watto.

[SmartAlec]

I guess that just opens the floodgates. Once you free one padawan's enslaved mother you've got to free them all, haven't you? Making an exception is really bad form, and it'll annoy people. Daresay Anakin isn't the only Jedi in history to have had a family in dire straits, or even the only padawan to at that point in time. And then, you've got to start taking an interest in everyone's family, because you can't just draw the line at slavery. There's poverty, disease, homelessness... problems with the succession of noble families, on the other end of the scale. This is a real can of worms.

[Telonius]

They could have at least allowed him to, you know, call home every once in awhile. Though to be fair, that's probably more of a problem with Anakin being a jerk than Yoda. (Seriously, you're telling me in ten years he couldn't put together a few hundred credits, or whatever the Hutts used, and buy her freedom?)

[hamishspence]

They could have at least allowed him to, you know, call home every once in awhile. Though to be fair, that's probably more of a problem with Anakin being a jerk than Yoda. (Seriously, you're telling me in ten years he couldn't put together a few hundred credits, or whatever the Hutts used, and buy her freedom?)

If you go by the EU, the Jedi as individuals (but not the Order as a whole) are sworn to poverty- individual Jedi own nothing other than their robes and their lightsabers.

There's also a theme of them not wanting students to have any family ties. In Outbound Flight, it's mentioned that when a couple of technicians have a Force-sensitive child, and hand her over to the Order, they are promptly fired to ensure that there's no risk of family contact interfering with training. The child in question is now a Padawan.

[VanBuren]

Using the Force causes you to become mentally unstable. The Sith love their power, like to go around choking people and the like. So they tend to all become homicidal, paranoid psychopaths. The pre-episode-IV Jedi ALSO had a tendency to use their powers all the time, and it made them narrow-minded, stupid, and superstitious. This is why not a single Jedi in Eps I-III can manage to rub two sticks of common sense together.

Both Obi-Wan and Yoda, perhaps unintentionally, become used to not using the Force during their decades in hiding. This allows them to regain much of their sanity, compared to people like Vader and the Emperor. So by the time of Ep V, Yoda is actually able to come up with good advice and see the consequences of his actions; whereas Yoda in the prequels is a retarded midget who (along with everyone else) cannot recognize a threat when it comes up and kicks him in the little green nards.

This probably explains why Kreia was the coolest Sith ever.

[hamishspence]

In Vision of the Future, overuse of the Force is suggested to lead to problems. Once Luke stops using the Force as a "solve everything" tool and starts to cut back, he begins to get useful visions, and subtle warnings when trouble's afoot.

Luke stops doing it when an alien race refuse to allow him to mediate a dispute because uses Force power too much, and in their view Jedi who do this tend to end up slipping to the Dark Side.

[Zaydos]

One of the tenants of the Jedi Order that Anakin flaunts on Naboo in Episode II is that you aren't supposed to just use the Force for minor everyday convenience.

[Fail]

Try this. (http://www.strangehorizons.com/2005/20051003/star-wars-a.shtml)

[lightningcat]

Yoda isn't so much a jerk as he is a curmudgeon. He is set in his ways, doesn't like change, and when forced to deal with a situation completely at odd to what he believes to be right and true does the best that he can, but does so with some resentment and reservations. When he trains Luke, he does so believing Luke may be the best hope for the Jedi, but he still thinks Luke is much to old for the training, and worried that Luke will fall to the dark side.
In the EU, when Yoda was much younger he was much more flexible in his thinking and attitudes.

[Math_Mage]

Try this. (http://www.strangehorizons.com/2005/20051003/star-wars-a.shtml)

Where is the inevitable flame war that followed?

[Coidzor]

And just to play Devil's Advocate, it was Anakin's love for Padme that drove him to betray Mace Windu.

But that he betrayed him at all was due to his weak character which he openly flaunted before the Jedi Order. But that's a different discussion.


I guess that just opens the floodgates. Once you free one padawan's enslaved mother you've got to free them all, haven't you? Making an exception is really bad form, and it'll annoy people. Daresay Anakin isn't the only Jedi in history to have had a family in dire straits, or even the only padawan to at that point in time. And then, you've got to start taking an interest in everyone's family, because you can't just draw the line at slavery. There's poverty, disease, homelessness... problems with the succession of noble families, on the other end of the scale. This is a real can of worms.

Except in this case, Anakin knew about her, knew her situation at the time of his leaving, and was old enough to be able to remember his promise to free her, even though he was successfully distracted from it for quite a while, he did eventually go to check up on her which was bad times.

So... yeah. It was a very, very atypical situation and an obvious vulnerability and source of potential problems that could turn him to the dark side when he was already vulnerable due to the pressure of being told that he was the chosen one and had to fix everyone's problems.

[Mr. Scaly]

Try this. (http://www.strangehorizons.com/2005/20051003/star-wars-a.shtml)

*facepalm* Oh good grief...and I thought the accusations that clone troopers were symbolic of Mexican illegal immigrants were bad.

Hmm, why is Yoda a jerk? Well when Luke says that pulling his X-Wing out of the swamp is impossible Yoda disproves him so thoroughly it make him look really bad. How's that?

[VanBuren]

But that he betrayed him at all was due to his weak character which he openly flaunted before the Jedi Order. But that's a different discussion.

I wouldn't say his character was weak, per se. It's just that his emotions ran pretty hot and he was kind of a hot-head. Luke wasn't all that different.

[Xondoure]

Seeing a lot of "Jedi can't ever love" being thrown around I felt the need to take a quick step in. The Jedi are not taught not to love or care about others, in fact one could argue the opposite. The Jedi are encouraged to find compassion in themselves for all living things and protect and cherish it. At the same time, the Jedi have the responsibility of dealing with an exceptionally powerful, and easily corruptible gift. In order to protect those they care about from this power a Jedi must learn to control his emotions so they do not rule his actions. Failing to do this is what causes the tragedy of Darth Vader. While the fear of this path has in fact ruled and corrupted the Jedi order at many times in history leading to a rather ironic turning of many Jedi from their truer principles, those who seek true union and compassion with the force must learn to let go of both fears so that they can act on behalf of the values of kindness and wisdom they are sworn to uphold.

[ZeroNumerous]

The Jedi are not taught not to love or care about others, in fact one could argue the opposite. The Jedi are encouraged to find compassion in themselves for all living things and protect and cherish it.

I would like to point out that they are, in fact, taught to put aside their emotions. A Jedi that acts with mercy in his heart is going against the tenets of the Order just as much as the Jedi acting on his rage.

Seriously (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Code), the Code is that bad.

[VanBuren]

I would like to point out that they are, in fact, taught to put aside their emotions. A Jedi that acts with mercy in his heart is going against the tenets of the Order just as much as the Jedi acting on his rage.

Seriously (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Code), the Code is that bad.

Yeah, but that's the revised Jedi Code. The original was far superior.

[Zaydos]

I would like to point out that they are, in fact, taught to put aside their emotions. A Jedi that acts with mercy in his heart is going against the tenets of the Order just as much as the Jedi acting on his rage.

Seriously (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Code), the Code is that bad.

From the page you linked to:
Emotions, then, are not to be overcome or denied, but rather understood and dealt with.

You are supposed to be at peace and act on the will of the Force (which according to Lucas is inherently good) and not let emotions cloud your judgment. You can still,and should still, feel emotions and act on them when they are the right thing to do; it is a caution against being ruled by your emotions.

And now I have defended the Jedi Code. I feel unclean. Ultimately it has a lot of bad points when taken too dogmatically as the Jedi Order did take it (Yoda included) which makes it ultimately folly to follow it in such a way.

[Xondoure]

Exactly, it's evil lies in misinterpretation, and fear of connection.