PDA

View Full Version : help with TWF Tempest build



holygeek04
2010-09-01, 08:24 PM
We are starting at lvl 1 and will play to lvl 20. Basically all books can be used.

I am looking to build a good TWF that becomes a tempest at one point. I normally play a dwarf fighter so I'm sorta in the dark as I am always super high ac, not much else.

I really have no idea what race to be, what classes to start as, what feats to take when. I have done alot of looking and know a few of the common TWF feats but that is about it.

I could be wrong but I have really only seen ranger or fighter as a good class to take when going TWF.

I also can not play dwarf.

Thus, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Urpriest
2010-09-01, 08:28 PM
Generally with TWF you want a source of bonus damage (unlike with a two-hander, power attack is not by itself sufficient to keep your damage up). The simplest way to do this is with sneak attack. Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 with the feat Daring Outlaw, for instance, gives you sneak attack as a Rogue 20, while getting up to +19 BAB. With TWF that can add up to very respectable damage.

Eldariel
2010-09-01, 09:16 PM
Have you considered a Dervish? 'cause it's kinda what Tempest always wanted to be. Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 is somewhat decent, if not amazing. Dervish and Swashbuckler are both in Complete Warrior. The other solid option is Ranger 6/Scout 4/Dervish 10 using Swift Hunter-feat (stacks Ranger & Scout for Skirmish & Favored Enemy) from Complete Scoundrel (Scout is Complete Adventurer, like Tempest); as you can imagine, Dervish moves the 10' easily each turn triggering Skirmish always. Tome of Battle (an awesome book) would also provide you some classes that would really kick ass with all this.

Race...well, Human and some variant Elves tend to be good options. You want 30' movement speed, feats and Dex/Str-bonuses. Humans tend to be ideal for just about everything so...yeah, that's always a safe option. Too bad really; gets kinda monotonous after a while but that's how the game is.

Vangor
2010-09-01, 10:15 PM
I am looking to build a good TWF that becomes a tempest at one point. I normally play a dwarf fighter so I'm sorta in the dark as I am always super high ac, not much else.

Let me ask, do you do well focusing on armor as a fighter in the campaigns of your DM? I wonder because the discussion either goes from you will be able to TWF, which I would place on the end of the spectrum with high armor melee, to you will crush anyone you can touch with a weapon, which is the complete opposite end of the spectrum and likely abandoning TWF. I say "likely abandoning" simply because you are beginning at level 1, and what you'll probably get are builds which make TWF work towards the end.

holygeek04
2010-09-02, 07:51 PM
Let me ask, do you do well focusing on armor as a fighter in the campaigns of your DM? I wonder because the discussion either goes from you will be able to TWF, which I would place on the end of the spectrum with high armor melee, to you will crush anyone you can touch with a weapon, which is the complete opposite end of the spectrum and likely abandoning TWF. I say "likely abandoning" simply because you are beginning at level 1, and what you'll probably get are builds which make TWF work towards the end.
Basically when I do a fighter focusing on armor I can't get hit unless the DM roles a crit.

I know the TWF will be weak at first but that is ok as I expect it, plus not doing dmg at first is ok with me.

FMArthur
2010-09-02, 08:24 PM
Basically when I do a fighter focusing on armor I can't get hit unless the DM roles a crit.

Just from the way you said that and the because of the vast number of people who make this mistake... just in case this is the case for your group too: Only a natural 20 is an auto-hit, even when the weapon has a larger critical threat range.

Lots of groups get that wrong, including my first two groups. I don't know if your group is actually making this mistake, and this is quite off-topic anyway, so sorry about the off-topic post.

Chambers
2010-09-02, 10:32 PM
Bounding Assault from Players Handbook II is a good feat for a Tempest. The 5th level Tempest ability lets you attack once with each weapon as an attack action when making a spring attack.

Bounding Assault lets you make a second attack at -5 when making an attack action with the spring attack feat. This -5 attack will actually be two attacks, one from each weapon, due to the Tempest Two Weapon Spring Attack ability. The extra attacks from BA can either be on a single target or two targets get two attacks each.

Rapid Blitz will let you target 3 enemies and gives you a third attack at -10, which due to Tempest becomes 2 attacks at -10.

Not bad, really, even if you just use Bounding Assault. Here's what it looks like with Bounding Assault.

Target 1: Full Bab, Full Bab
Target 2 (or target 1 again): -5, -5

Add Rapid Blitz:
Target 3 (or target 1 or 2 again): -10, -10

So if you have Rapid Blitz it's to your advantage to Spring Attack, because you get 6 attacks (Full, Full, -5, -5, -10, -10) instead of a regular Full Attack without moving (Full, -5, -10, -15). You can't benefit from haste attacks with the Spring/Bounding/Rapid, but you don't really need the extra attack anyway.

A Ranger/Scout/Tempest would be deadly, with the Swift Hunter feat and Improved Skirmish feat. Pump your Skirmish damage up to +6d6 (count as 15th level Scout + Improved Skirmish feat) and who needs Dervish when you're dropping 6d6 Skirmish 6 times a round, all while moving your full speed? :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-09-03, 12:35 AM
Bounding Assault from Players Handbook II is a good feat for a Tempest. The 5th level Tempest ability lets you attack once with each weapon as an attack action when making a spring attack.

Bounding Assault lets you make a second attack at -5 when making an attack action with the spring attack feat. This -5 attack will actually be two attacks, one from each weapon, due to the Tempest Two Weapon Spring Attack ability. The extra attacks from BA can either be on a single target or two targets get two attacks each.

Rapid Blitz will let you target 3 enemies and gives you a third attack at -10, which due to Tempest becomes 2 attacks at -10.

Not bad, really, even if you just use Bounding Assault. Here's what it looks like with Bounding Assault.

Target 1: Full Bab, Full Bab
Target 2 (or target 1 again): -5, -5

Add Rapid Blitz:
Target 3 (or target 1 or 2 again): -10, -10

So if you have Rapid Blitz it's to your advantage to Spring Attack, because you get 6 attacks (Full, Full, -5, -5, -10, -10) instead of a regular Full Attack without moving (Full, -5, -10, -15). You can't benefit from haste attacks with the Spring/Bounding/Rapid, but you don't really need the extra attack anyway.

A Ranger/Scout/Tempest would be deadly, with the Swift Hunter feat and Improved Skirmish feat. Pump your Skirmish damage up to +6d6 (count as 15th level Scout + Improved Skirmish feat) and who needs Dervish when you're dropping 6d6 Skirmish 6 times a round, all while moving your full speed? :smallsmile:

It's a bit unclear by the rules. I'd allow it (god knows Tempest needs a bone) but it's not all that impressive in the end. Note tho that Dervish easily gets 8+ attacks (Haste-attack and one at -15) with +5 to hit and damage on each hand with lesser feat investment and ability to benefit of any other source of extra attacks you've got so it kinda does have an edge; +4d6 vs. +6d6 but the +5 damage is only 2 less than the average of +2d6, and it applies to every opponent (as opposed to non-crit-immunes and FEs) and then there's the two extra attacks to account for. And you'll actually end up with +5d6 in a Dervish-build (Ranger 6/Scout 4/Dervish 10) so you're still ahead.

But the true winner here is a Cleric-dip; one level dip to fuel Travel Devotion 6+ times a day gets you full skirmish full attacks. And not just any full skirmish full attacks but as you've only invested one level in the Cleric-dip, you can easily get +9d6 Skirmish damage out of the deal on each attack. So you'll be attacking at 8+ attacks for +9d6 each hit.

Albonor
2010-09-03, 01:33 AM
If you are willing to cut a little into your Tempest levels you might want to go elf (I know, I know: CON>DEX) and dip two levels of Champion of Correlon.

You of course need to forego the bonus to heavy armor but you gain your dex as a bonus to damage on each hit. With the Ftr2/Swashbuckler3/Dervish10 build presented before, you can really build a elven war dancer of death with Str, Dex AND Int to damage on each hit. He or she will have a crappy Wis and Cha but you can anyway go with the deathseeking grim and dark (I saw it too) loner if you want.

Add Champ 2/Tempest 3 and your good to go. Drawback WOULD have been that you just lost that +1 dodge bonus and +1 bonus to hit from Tempest as well as the ability to use weapon feats on both your weapons but since you only have two levels of fighter...

Endarire
2010-09-03, 01:36 AM
Tome of Battle's Bloodclaw Master PrC and Wolf Fang Strike maneuver would help in this situation.

Also, Tempest feels like a very icky PrC. Instead, get the feat Travel Devotion (Complete Champion 62) and maybe take a (Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)) Cleric.level.

holygeek04
2010-09-06, 08:32 PM
Just from the way you said that and the because of the vast number of people who make this mistake... just in case this is the case for your group too: Only a natural 20 is an auto-hit, even when the weapon has a larger critical threat range.

Lots of groups get that wrong, including my first two groups. I don't know if your group is actually making this mistake, and this is quite off-topic anyway, so sorry about the off-topic post.

We played right, everything that hit me had a X3 weapon

holygeek04
2010-09-06, 08:36 PM
Ftr2/Swashbuckler3/Dervish10/Champ 2/Tempest 3
Is what I am going for. I don't have access to most of my books for a few days and I know there are a few elf races out there. I was wondering what you think would fit this build best. I was thinking gray because of the bonus to INT and DEX, but the -STR -CON seems like a big draw-back

Eldariel
2010-09-06, 11:57 PM
Is what I am going for. I don't have access to most of my books for a few days and I know there are a few elf races out there. I was wondering what you think would fit this build best. I was thinking gray because of the bonus to INT and DEX, but the -STR -CON seems like a big draw-back

Fire Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) are the easy choice. Snow Elf [Frostburn] is +Dex -Cha which is another solid option. All the Core elves have painful penalties to stats you're doing important stuff with.

Tho do notice that both, Swashbuckler- and CoCL-damage bonuses are precision. Might pay to ask if the various Truedeath/Demolition/Whatever Crystals [Magic Item Compendium] would allow you to add Precision Damage against normally immune opponents.

heymejack
2010-09-07, 01:03 AM
any time a melee character has any intelligence, i want to give him knowledge devotion. if there's any way you can squeeze it in, it rocks faces, and is a very fun RP thing.

i havn't seen the actual feat breakdown of your build, but it's probably impossible with all those prc's.




edit ** could be done with 1 flaw and education at first level. wouldn't get knowledge devotion till much later.