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View Full Version : Homebrew cheating mechanic : Break it please!



Quietus
2010-09-02, 11:33 AM
For the next game I run, I'm considering implementing what I intend to call "Cheat points". I know that I myself am pretty bad for fudging the crap out of a lot of things behind the screen, and would like to lessen that somewhat, but don't want to entirely give up my ability to change the game by nothing more than pure fiat.

What I'm intending to do is, at the start of the campaign, give each player three "cheat points", in the form of poker chips or something else similar to that. At any point in the game, they can give me one of these "cheat points", and perform.. some action outside the rules. My goal is to leave the actual value of these points entirely vague, so my players could get as creative as they like. As I'm given these points, I'll put them in piles based on who gave me the point, and then use them later in the game, effectively "spending them back" at the player who gave them to me, preferably in a way similar in power to how they used it in the first place. That last part might be a little heavy in bookkeeping, though.

So, my question is this : If you were given open ended Cheat Points, and this system was described to you, what sorts of things would you expect them to be able to do? What sorts of things would you expect them NOT to be able to do? And what sorts of things would you be upset with, if I used my Cheat Points to do them to you?

Alternatively : Would it be better to simply distribute the same 3 cheat points at the start of each game, and let it be known that yes, I'm going to fudge things occasionally, and these allow you to do the same?

HamHam
2010-09-02, 11:39 AM
I think the MM hero points work basically like this.

Demons_eye
2010-09-02, 11:40 AM
And action points in DnD but not to that kind of level

Edit: As to what I might be able to do with cheat points. If I were say a shifter I might want to spend all the shifts I have, say fiveish, and a cheat point to turn into the hybrid form of my heritage.


If I was a Fighter I might want to gain a feat tree for the fight or if I was a Warblade I might want to regain my maneuvers with out refreshing or gain a maneuver I don;t have.

If we were getting chased by a mob and I was an unarmed fighter I would like to punch a building and have it block the way to us.

If I was on top of a dragon I would spend on to aim it into a tower if one was around, spend the second to crash into the tower and the third running down the tower as it fell or using the dragon as a skate board.

Jan Mattys
2010-09-02, 11:43 AM
I played Dangerous Journeys with my gaming group years ago, and we've been using a system of "Fate Points" (called Joss Points) since then, in every other system.

Basically:
1- You buy Joss Points with experience points. You decide how much they are worth. For example, Joss points cost 1 Accomplishment Point in Vampires the Masquerade, so they weren't exactly cheap. Also, you could only "buy" Joss Points before every session started, and you couldn't ever buy more than one. The idea is that if players want to gain experience, they have to be careful not to waste their points. Otherwise, they will spend all their XP to replenish their Joss reserve, and won't advance as quickly. And if they happen to be low on Joss points, they know it'll take a while for them to replenish their reserve.

2- You can never have more than 5 Points at any given time. (so you can never "save your life" twice - see point 4)

3- 1 Joss Point = You automatically succeed at doing a single action. In situations where there's no dice to roll, you can use a Joss point to have "luck" (at DM discretion, things just "tend to go your way for that single scene).

4- If you ever die, you can use 3 Joss and "just not die". For example, you are left for dead on the field, or the Bad Guys decide to capture you even if killing you makes more sense.

This is it. Works wonders and DMing is exceptionally easy whe you know there's a safe-net between your players and the ground, should they fall. You can just DM-away at your heart's content.

Fun facts:
a) It's awesome when the PCs get stuck and one of them decides to spend a Joss point to advance the plot, possibly spending the third one of his reserve. He uses his luck for the group, at his personal risk. It's considered a particularly bold thing to do, in my gaming group.

b) Special characters, recurring villains, and big bads, can have joss points too :D This creates awesome situations without the need for DM fiat every time. My players expect that the Big Bad will always have some ace up his sleeve, and they know he won't be easy to take down because, you know, sometimes even Dr. Von Doom gets "lucky". :D

c) One of the best end-of-campaign games we played had the party versus a Vampire who cursed them with "bad luck". Everytime they used a Joss during the final assault on it lair, the joss they used got transferred to him. By the time they met him, he was full of "fate points" and they were not. Hilarity ensued as everything started to go downhill for the group :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2010-09-02, 11:48 AM
I think the MM hero points work basically like this.
Hero points are pretty well defined in how they can be used. They can be used to compensate the players for DM fudging, though - as in, if the DM doesn't want a villain to fall too early in a fight as a result of a lucky crit by a player, he can say the villain used a "villain point" and give the PCs an extra hero point to make up for it.

I think Fate works in a way almost identical to the OP's description. Possibly also FUDGE and Wushu. Or maybe it's just one of those and I'm mixing them up.

Quietus
2010-09-02, 11:51 AM
Yeah, I'm looking at action points as being the "safe baseline" the same way Wish has its own list of safe options.. but allowing cheat points to do much more, if the players are creative with them. Auto-succeed at reasonable checks, I'd allow.. and "unreasonable but in-character and cool" things I'd give them a good roll at, even if they had nothing mechanically that allowed it. They could also use them to force me to reroll a die - and I'd do it openly, which I usually don't do.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to MM, can I get a quick description of how those work?

And the Joss Points are an interesting idea, but I don't think I'll be using experience normally in my games, instead giving a level up after a particularly important scene. I was considering giving out free "minor" feats if there's a long stretch of less important stuff between levels, but maybe I could use Joss Points instead.. hm.

Jan Mattys
2010-09-02, 11:57 AM
And the Joss Points are an interesting idea, but I don't think I'll be using experience normally in my games, instead giving a level up after a particularly important scene. I was considering giving out free "minor" feats if there's a long stretch of less important stuff between levels, but maybe I could use Joss Points instead.. hm.

Well you can just ignore my point 1 and give Joss(es) as a result of particularly good roleplay, or after the party nets an important success, or just beats a chapter of your story.

For example, if your story involves gods, or working for a superior entity, giving Joss points after a success to those working under some divine guidance makes a lot of sense.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-02, 12:00 PM
Things I'd expect:
Use a feat I don't have, and possibly don't meet the pre-requisites for, but could meet the pre-reqs at my level, assuming it was fitting. In some cases I'd expect even to use higher-level feats (over-priced feat, or just too perfect a situation). Using Whirlwind Attack when surrounded, for example.
Use a spell/maneuver/power/whatever that I don't know/have prepared, but on my spell list and of a level I can cast, using normal spell slots/power points/expending another maneuver in its place/whatever.
Regain an already cast spell/enough power points to use a particular power/recover a given maneuver/whatever.
Succeed on a thematically-appropriate but otherwise impossible skill or ability check. A raging barbarian busting through the solid steel door, the brilliant wizard figuring out the riddle, whatever.
Gain extra actions. Not sure exactly how much (probably depending on the situation), but if I'm too far away from the fleeing enemy to attack this turn (but could next turn, assuming he stayed still), and I use a cheat point, I'd expect to be able to both catch and attack him.
Do something desperate and have it work. Like a Fighter trying something to prevent an enemy from teleporting, and for whatever reason it works. The courageous Paladin standing up to the evil dragon and taking the breath attack in order to shield his allies - and surviving when he shouldn't have. Something like that.

Psyx
2010-09-02, 12:03 PM
So, my question is this : If you were given open ended Cheat Points, and this system was described to you, what sorts of things would you expect them to be able to do? What sorts of things would you expect them NOT to be able to do? And what sorts of things would you be upset with, if I used my Cheat Points to do them to you?


That depends on how powerful you want them to be. Three versions I've encountered:


WFRP Fate Points: Get out of death (not quite) free. The fatal blow cracks your skull, knocks you out and breaks your helmet. Or you are captured by mermen when you fall off a cliff in plate armour, instead of drowning. The FP doesn't just 'ignore' the death, but takes you out of the fight (at minimum)

Luck points in most systems: Allow you to add to a roll. If I only had three points EVER, I would want these to be an 'auto pass' on whatever I was doing. Maybe an auto-crit on a monster. maybe with maximum damage too!

In an L5R game we got similar blag points, and they allowed us to do pretty much anything, by making the universe revolve around us for an instant. So they were kinda like Matrix style reality-warping things that allowed us to do anything we could think of, pretty much.

arrowhen
2010-09-02, 12:09 PM
I'd use them to reroll whiffs and introduce fortuitous coincidences ("It *just so happens* the King's advisor is an old friend of mine!")

I'd expect the GM to use them to complicate (NOT negate!) my successes.

Quietus
2010-09-02, 12:19 PM
Things I'd expect:
Use a feat I don't have, and possibly don't meet the pre-requisites for, but could meet the pre-reqs at my level, assuming it was fitting. In some cases I'd expect even to use higher-level feats (over-priced feat, or just too perfect a situation). Using Whirlwind Attack when surrounded, for example.
Use a spell/maneuver/power/whatever that I don't know/have prepared, but on my spell list and of a level I can cast, using normal spell slots/power points/expending another maneuver in its place/whatever.
Regain an already cast spell/enough power points to use a particular power/recover a given maneuver/whatever.
Succeed on a thematically-appropriate but otherwise impossible skill or ability check. A raging barbarian busting through the solid steel door, the brilliant wizard figuring out the riddle, whatever.
Gain extra actions. Not sure exactly how much (probably depending on the situation), but if I'm too far away from the fleeing enemy to attack this turn (but could next turn, assuming he stayed still), and I use a cheat point, I'd expect to be able to both catch and attack him.
Do something desperate and have it work. Like a Fighter trying something to prevent an enemy from teleporting, and for whatever reason it works. The courageous Paladin standing up to the evil dragon and taking the breath attack in order to shield his allies - and surviving when he shouldn't have. Something like that.

Nice, few of these I hadn't thought about - but I do like the idea of, like in that example, spending one to use a feat you don't have. Whirlwind Attack would get some nice use that way! The extra action - I'd probably allow a free standard for them, don't think that'd be too much. A free full-round would be .. well, I guess that'd only benefit the weapon guys, who would get a fresh full attack. It'd depend on what they want to use it for.


I'd use them to reroll whiffs and introduce fortuitous coincidences ("It *just so happens* the King's advisor is an old friend of mine!")

I'd expect the GM to use them to complicate (NOT negate!) my successes.

Both fair, though I think in this case, I'd allow the King's Advisor thing only if you also added HOW you knew him. It wouldn't have to be deep, but "He used to be a teacher, taught my dad in XYZ subject" would be fine. Would you consider spending one back at you to reroll a failed SoD save to be negating a success?

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-02, 12:24 PM
Most common cheats are "forgetting" tacking track of Hit points, how much spells you cast, and casting a spell you have not prepared. "Forgetting" deducting the money on the character sheet, also.

Taking a "player knowledge" action could be considered cheating.

DM: So, even though you SLAUGHTERED every person who were only giving you dirty looks, you'll let the Artemis Entreri guy insult you because....?
Player: <give a token>

Quietus
2010-09-02, 12:31 PM
Most common cheats are "forgetting" tacking track of Hit points, how much spells you cast, and casting a spell you have not prepared. "Forgetting" deducting the money on the character sheet, also.

Taking a "player knowledge" action could be considered cheating.

DM: So, even though you SLAUGHTERED every person who were only giving you dirty looks, you'll let the Artemis Entreri guy insult you because....?
Player: <give a token>

I'd rather go the other way. There's an approach referred to as "carrot and stick" - the way you describe it is stick, where you're punishing for something you don't like. In that case, if it was in-character for him not to go after Artemis, if I knew that they could come out of things not-dead or it'd make for a better story, I might offer a cheat point if they go after the guy, despite it being a bad idea.

ericgrau
2010-09-02, 12:32 PM
I'd let them adjust the power level based on number of points, as in medium / major / epic. Medium might be limited to a single action. Automatic success on a task appropriate for a level, sometimes in ways that could only happen magically. Major would affect a more long term task spanning multiple rounds. Epic would be coming back from the dead, undoing another major misfortune, causing a similar major misfortune against a creature on par with you. Of course then you can use the 3 tokens the player gave you to take him out again later or, as mentioned, let a major foe get away.

Or you could completely change what medium/major/epic means, but you get the idea.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-02, 12:35 PM
I'd rather go the other way. There's an approach referred to as "carrot and stick" - the way you describe it is stick, where you're punishing for something you don't like. In that case, if it was in-character for him not to go after Artemis, if I knew that they could come out of things not-dead or it'd make for a better story, I might offer a cheat point if they go after the guy, despite it being a bad idea.

In my idea, a player who goes psycho to everyone showing the slightest disrespect, and suddenly becomes quiet only because he knows he'll be mopped on the floor by Entreri even though his character isn't aware of this is clearly cheating. It's roleplay cheating, but cheating anyway.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-02, 12:36 PM
It'd depend on what they want to use it for.
Exactly. I'd stop really tracking actions at that point, and be like "OK, if I give you a cheat point, can I run over there right now and beat his face in?" Actions out of turn might also be appropriate, but only if it's desperate.

I think a major point of this is that they should do more when the situation is dire and nothing else will do. These are your last-ditch chances to make something happen. Using one just to get another action to wipe out the boss a little faster would be dumb and lame.

Heh, on the Paladin facing the Dragon, maybe allow him to use a token to make the breath weapon hit only him, saving his allies?

bokodasu
2010-09-02, 01:04 PM
The version I played was less powerful than this, but still wound up being pretty powerful: chips let you reroll, force an opponent to reroll, or added +1 or -1 to any roll of yours or an opponent (in a system where that was more or less like +/-4 would be in D&D). You got 3 chips at the start of each session; there were a few variants where you could increase this number by spending xp, but that got too crazy. You could also earn chips by pointing out things that the GM missed, like "wait, shouldn't the Bad Guy have security cameras on this warehouse?" or for particularly clever problem solving or roleplay.

Sometimes the GM would start with a pool of chips for all the baddies; some bad guys had their own pools. It was always an interesting metagaming tactic - get the GM to run out before the players.

Quietus
2010-09-02, 01:12 PM
I'd let them adjust the power level based on number of points, as in medium / major / epic. Medium might be limited to a single action. Automatic success on a task appropriate for a level, sometimes in ways that could only happen magically. Major would affect a more long term task spanning multiple rounds. Epic would be coming back from the dead, undoing another major misfortune, causing a similar major misfortune against a creature on par with you. Of course then you can use the 3 tokens the player gave you to take him out again later or, as mentioned, let a major foe get away.

Or you could completely change what medium/major/epic means, but you get the idea.


I do like that idea, and I'd be happy to allow that- my only concern then would be hoarding tokens. Maybe I'd start with a pool of five myself, which I can spend as minors, and then simply track who used anything more than a minor, so I can spend that specifically back at them... but adding them up for bigger effects is an idea I like.


Exactly. I'd stop really tracking actions at that point, and be like "OK, if I give you a cheat point, can I run over there right now and beat his face in?" Actions out of turn might also be appropriate, but only if it's desperate.

I think a major point of this is that they should do more when the situation is dire and nothing else will do. These are your last-ditch chances to make something happen. Using one just to get another action to wipe out the boss a little faster would be dumb and lame.

Heh, on the Paladin facing the Dragon, maybe allow him to use a token to make the breath weapon hit only him, saving his allies?

See, now you've got me thinking about how that would work here... I think in this case, I'd allow one chip to make the weapon hit only the Paladin (one chip : I provide total cover), with another spent to "boost" a reflex save... I'm thinking that when used to boost a save ahead of rerolling, I'd allow it to give a 1/2 level bonus to the roll, and provide the equivalent of evasion/mettle/slippery mind... so in this case, the Paladin could spend two chips, one to protect all his allies, and one to test his reflex save. If he makes the save, Evasion kicks in and he's blocked the entire attack with his shield/weapon/whatever, and no one takes any damage... but he's spent two chips, for a "major" effect. And it's very cinematic! I like it... think that'd work out fairly?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-02, 02:12 PM
Luck points in most systems: Allow you to add to a roll. If I only had three points EVER, I would want these to be an 'auto pass' on whatever I was doing. Maybe an auto-crit on a monster. maybe with maximum damage too!

D&D has luck points. They're handy, allowing you to trade one to say, reroll init. Four allows you to cheat death. Not a bad place to look for inspiration.

I'd say, outline the uses of them explicitly. For instance, adding another die to any roll, after the fact, counts as one luck point. Forcing a mob to reroll a die would be the same. Forcing autosuccess or fail should be substantially more expensive than merely forcing rerolls.

I would give out some method of gaining more. Say, whenever you pull off something immensely awesome or dramatic(table has to concur that it is awesome), the DM may award you one.

Greyfeld
2010-09-02, 02:35 PM
I do like that idea, and I'd be happy to allow that- my only concern then would be hoarding tokens. Maybe I'd start with a pool of five myself, which I can spend as minors, and then simply track who used anything more than a minor, so I can spend that specifically back at them... but adding them up for bigger effects is an idea I like.


I could be wrong, but I think the intent is to have the player spend more chips on a more powerful effect.

So, a minor effect would cost 1 chip, a moderate effect would cost 2 chips, and a major effect would cost all 3.

That way you don't have to worry about bookkeeping "what kind of effects did he use his chips for?" All you have to do is count the chips, then decide how many you want to spend back through an NPC.

Quietus
2010-09-02, 08:42 PM
I could be wrong, but I think the intent is to have the player spend more chips on a more powerful effect.

So, a minor effect would cost 1 chip, a moderate effect would cost 2 chips, and a major effect would cost all 3.

That way you don't have to worry about bookkeeping "what kind of effects did he use his chips for?" All you have to do is count the chips, then decide how many you want to spend back through an NPC.

True. Reduced bookkeeping would be valuable, I just don't want to have it end up with one player having all the chips, so I'd have to watch how many each player has. But I suppose that as long as I keep things more or less in the "one chip + one chip = two chips" line, it shouldn't really matter.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-02, 09:17 PM
See, now you've got me thinking about how that would work here... I think in this case, I'd allow one chip to make the weapon hit only the Paladin (one chip : I provide total cover), with another spent to "boost" a reflex save... I'm thinking that when used to boost a save ahead of rerolling, I'd allow it to give a 1/2 level bonus to the roll, and provide the equivalent of evasion/mettle/slippery mind... so in this case, the Paladin could spend two chips, one to protect all his allies, and one to test his reflex save. If he makes the save, Evasion kicks in and he's blocked the entire attack with his shield/weapon/whatever, and no one takes any damage... but he's spent two chips, for a "major" effect. And it's very cinematic! I like it... think that'd work out fairly?
This is exactly what I was imagining, yes, and I really like it.

Quietus
2010-09-02, 09:56 PM
So, boiling this down :

Affecting rolls : Either used before a roll, adding 1/2 the character's level and gaining some benefit - mettle/evasion/slippery mind on saves, for example. Alternatively, use as a reroll, with the same 1/2 level boost.

Extra actions : In general, roughly a standard action's worth, but generally play this loose. "Yes, you can get over there and full attack/cast a full round spell/whatever"

Miscellaneous whatevers : Extra uses of limited-use class features, recasting a spent spell, or burning a prepared spell to cast one they didn't have prepared. Also includes using a feat they could meet the prerequisites for at their level, but don't have.

Extra stuff/random requests : Played by ear. In the aforementioned "I know the King's advisor!" suggestion, for example, a cheat point might allow you to insert a connection to that NPC, and shift the NPC's attitude in your favor - probably roughly one step, so that advisor might go from indifferent to friendly, but say a hostile orc chieftan might go one, possibly two steps up, deciding he can respect that character's ballsy attitude and give the character a chance to speak his mind.


Start the players with three points each, and I'll start with five, to use among various encounters they come across. Thinking I might let players go up to five max, and they can spend up to three at a time to generally increase the level of things I'd let them get away with, playing that by ear.

Thoughts?


Edit: As to what I might be able to do with cheat points. If I were say a shifter I might want to spend all the shifts I have, say fiveish, and a cheat point to turn into the hybrid form of my heritage.

I'm not familiar with Eberron (that's where Shifters are from, yes?) : Can someone explain this a bit for me please?

Ashiel
2010-09-02, 10:51 PM
Deadlands has something very close to this called Fate Chips; and in fact use Poker Chips to represent. In the Deadlands system, doing specific things such as obtaining critical successes against NPCs with Overraw, Ridicule, or other social skills can get them, as can roleplaying your hinderances at ill times (such as having your chronic diseased character cough loudly while hiding), and so forth. Doing so allows you to draw from the fate pool.

The chips come in three types: White (minor), Red (moderate), and Blue (major). A character can only possess up to 10 chips at a time (IIRC), and at the end of each session a character can trade chips for bonus experience points (or in Deadlands, bounty points to improve your character).

In game, the chips can be spent to shrug off wounds, ignore hits, re-roll checks, and similar things representing the hand of fate. There's even a Luck o' the Irish edge which grants you a free fate chip each session (IIRC).

Certain things in the game will allow the Marshal to draw fate chips as well (baaaad Juju this is), and can then use them on the NPCs.

Endarire
2010-09-03, 03:29 PM
Can I use a cheat point to become Pun Pun indefinitely?

Quietus
2010-09-03, 04:35 PM
Can I use a cheat point to become Pun Pun indefinitely?

Only if I get to spend it back at you to create the anti-pun-pun, who retroactively nullifies any references to : Pazuzu, Sarrukhs, and Ice Assassins. Which shouldn't be too hard, actually, since I play with my own setting, no Forgotten Realms. :smalltongue:

Dante & Vergil
2010-09-03, 05:10 PM
If one was epic level, just high level, or whenever possible, I would like to spend a bunch of points to ascend to divinity.
Something similar to Karsus in Faerūn, or Vecna in general. (More like Vecna I would hope.)

Zaydos
2010-09-03, 06:24 PM
I used a system called luck points for one of my games. They could upgrade a hit to a critical threat, or a miss to a hit, or make you auto-pass a save, or do something more fun if you could think of one and make a roll. They got 2 each the entire campaign, and only ever used 1 each.

I forget what they used them for but I remember turning a miss into a critical threat, and using a scroll of heal as a scroll of mass heal with reduced range. The bad guys used theirs to use a target area Dispel Psionics.

Sewercop
2010-09-03, 06:34 PM
If you as a gm use a cheat point against a player, would the player then get back the point? Or is it lost forever when first spent?
That is quite important to know if you gonna break something :)

Quietus
2010-09-03, 06:37 PM
If you as a gm use a cheat point against a player, would the player then get back the point? Or is it lost forever when first spent?
That is quite important to know if you gonna break something :)

That's the idea... although if I want to draw a table more into roleplaying (like is the case with the current group I play with, though I'm new and have yet to DM with them.. one day, maybe..), I might say "Do something awesome without these points, or really roleplay well, to get more. When I use them, they go out of play."

As to the divinity - that, I prefer to keep as a roleplay thing. I don't want a player to be able to spend points to become a God, I want them to have to do something worthy of becoming a god.

Sewercop
2010-09-03, 06:55 PM
Personaly i would save them until needed.., Failed sod resistance roll or something like that.
To have a gm "cheat" on save or die spells on big bads from players happens anyways so it is no loss for me personaly. It is more like get out of trouble three times.

Quietus
2010-09-03, 07:00 PM
I tend not to use SoD effects unless my players are, or during really high end boss fights. Kind of an unspoken MAD pact. I'm a little more likely to do things that take someone out of a fight permanently, like long paralysis or petrification, but that sort of stuff does have a cure, and usually one players can get their hands on easily enough. But even those are rare; I hate moments where the DM looks me in the eye and basically says "Make a Fortitude save versus playing my game for the rest of the night".

Sewercop
2010-09-03, 07:15 PM
I tend not to use SoD effects unless my players are, or during really high end boss fights. Kind of an unspoken MAD pact. I'm a little more likely to do things that take someone out of a fight permanently, like long paralysis or petrification, but that sort of stuff does have a cure, and usually one players can get their hands on easily enough. But even those are rare; I hate moments where the DM looks me in the eye and basically says "Make a Fortitude save versus playing my game for the rest of the night".

Sod are not fun to be targeted with. It just happens that I am fond of using them. So I tend to be the only one getting them back :) But I agree with you, it is not fun to save or get bored.

I guess i would use the points for fun if that were the case. Not gamebreaking, but fun. Plain old fun. Worst case scenario the gm gets to use his points for fun against me too.

Quietus
2010-09-03, 07:54 PM
That's kind of the ultimate goal, as far as I'm concerned. I want everyone to have a bit of fun, throw some tongue-in-cheek cheating around, and in the end, justify my own cheating while giving me a guideline as to how much the players will tolerate before smacking me. Keeping one point in reserve for rare "Oh crap a basilisk" moments would be far more useful than hoarding all three "just in case".