PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] More PsyWar or Soul Manifester?



Keld Denar
2010-09-02, 03:12 PM
So, I have a character for a RHoD game I'm in, an overly affectionate half giant named Lenny, who just loves to hug, squeeze, and love his enemies forever and ever until their little heads pop off. I'm a little torn between which direction to take him, as I have a few unique opportunities.

First, a couple of house rules. Extra feat at level 1, and feats every odd level instead of every 3 levels.
DM eliminated Monastic Training. With it gone, Tashalatora stacks ALL psionic classes, instead of just the one you take Monastic Training for. Tash is also a monk bonus feat.
LA is already bought off, so I have 5 character levels at ECL5.

Current build{table]ECL|CharLevel|Feats|Power
1|Monk1|IUASB, Imp GrappleB, Aberrant Blood, Inhuman Reach
2|Monk2|TashalatoraB
3|PsyWar1|Deepspawn, Practiced Manifester(PsyWar)B|Inertial Armor
4|PsyWar2|Link PowerB|Expansion
5|PsyWar3|Improved Natural Attack(UAS)|Grip of Iron[/table]

I'm planning on taking Shape Soulmeld: Kraken Mantle + Open Lesser Chakra: Arms at some point (after level 12), which leads me to the split. My next level will be 1 more PsyWar for sure, since I need 2nd level powers to get into:

Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) from Mind's Eye allows me to progress Psionics (and thus Monk abilities) and Incarnum for 10/10 levels. I'm debating taking 2 levels of Totemist at ECL7 and 8, then taking Soul Manifester for the remaining levels we end up playing, or just staying straight PsyWar.

Straight PsyWar has the advantage of getting my higher level powers more quickly. Since my UAS damage is pretty high, getting Vampiric Weapon at ECL9 would go a long way toward enhancing survivability, as the temp HP I can generate is kinda rediculous. This also gives me more bonus feats I need to get all of my tricks together (I want to take Scorpion's Grasp, Multigrab, and Improved Multigrab for the lulz). On the other hand, having Essentia and binding Girallon Arms to my Totem would give me 4 more natural weapons (on top of my 2 tentacles and UAS) and also increase my Grapple checks to ludacris levels. It would cost me a feat on Azure Talent to get into Soul Manifester, but I'd save a feat on taking Shape Soulmeld: Kraken Mantle. It would also open up my Arm Chakra, but that would come really late, so I'd probably still take Open Lesser Chakra: Arms simply because it gives another +2 untyped bonus on grapple checks. I wouldn't lose any MLs with the Totemist dip, since I have Practiced Manifester, but I'd lose the PP, Powers Known, and access to upper level powers. And before you ask, I considered using Ardent as a base instead of PsyWar, but I couldn't get the mantles to work out, and the lack of bonus feats was depressing.

So yea, I'm torn. What to do? Monk2/PsyWar18 or Monk2/PsyWar4/Totemiest2/SoulManifester10/PsyWar+2? Since its RHoD, I'm guessing we'll go through at least level 11, possibly further if the DM continues DMing further. Anyone care to debate the finer points of each build? Are 2 levels of PsyWar powers and a couple BAB worth 12 levels of Meldshaping?

Keld Denar
2010-09-07, 09:09 AM
Anyone? I tried asking over on BG, got a half a dozen builds that were...not as good, and nobody answered my question. Should I do the Monk2/PsyWar18 build to get the extra feats and the earlier powers, or should I do the Monk2/PsyWar4/Totemist2/SoulManifester10/PsyWar+2 build and trade 2 levels of manifesting for 12 levels of Meldshaping?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-07, 09:44 AM
I love Theurges and Incarnum, so... yeah, I vote Soul Manifester. Just because they're awesome. Can't claim any reason why it'd be better though.

Person_Man
2010-09-07, 10:00 AM
I'm a huge advocate of Incarnum, but Monk 2/Psychic Warrior X would be more powerful. More feats, more BAB, more power points, higher level powers. It's not worth giving them up for Kraken Mantle and a few extra natural attacks. Besides, most Totemist soulmelds rely very heavily on unlocking higher level chakra slots (unlike most Incarnate abilities, which rely on having a lot of essentia and a high essentia capacity), and your chakra progression would be way to slow to be worthwhile.

Draz74
2010-09-07, 10:37 AM
Yeah, Soul Manifester is tempting just because it's a cool theurge concept, but I think in this case you'd be stronger to just stick with PsyWar progression.

Kylarra
2010-09-07, 10:44 AM
I'm thinking straight PsyWar might be the best bet as well, unless you're really into your theurge concept.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-07, 10:45 AM
Sounds like he needs some Reaping Mauler to go with his crush-lovin'

DragoonWraith
2010-09-07, 10:46 AM
Only if you waive the size requirement on Reaping Mauler...

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-07, 01:28 PM
Only if you waive the size requirement on Reaping Mauler...
There is no size requirement for Reaping Mauler, unless you mean having to had to defeat three creatures larger than yourself to qualify... but half-giants are still Medium sized.

Maybe you are thinking of Hulking Hurler? Even then though the half-giant can use it as they have a large build for whenever it benefits them.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-07, 01:36 PM
It requires Clever Wrestling, which requires "Small or Medium size", which means you lose your class features the minute you take the first step to being a good grappler (namely, increasing your size). That by itself makes Reaping Mauler an awful class, it actually makes you worse.

Considering it also does not advance his Monk abilities, his Psionic Powers, or his Meldshaping, I can't imagine why he'd take it even if it didn't have that clause. Especially considering the class features of Reaping Mauler leave a lot to be desired.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-07, 01:41 PM
It requires Clever Wrestling, which requires "Small or Medium size", which means you lose your class features the minute you take the first step to being a good grappler (namely, increasing your size). That by itself makes Reaping Mauler an awful class, it actually makes you worse.
If he's a half-giant it doesn't matter to the build in question however.


Considering it also does not advance his Monk abilities, his Psionic Powers, or his Meldshaping, I can't imagine why he'd take it even if it didn't have that clause. Especially considering the class features of Reaping Mauler leave a lot to be desired.
He wants a character that destroys with hugs.

This guy by 3rd level can kill anything by maintaining a pin for a single round by knocking you unconscious, and then you can kill them

DragoonWraith
2010-09-07, 02:03 PM
It matters for a Half-Giant PsyWar who wants to use his Expansion power.

Cieyrin
2010-09-07, 02:47 PM
I can't really argue between whether to throw in Totemist and Soul Manifester or not, as I don't have access to my books right here and now, but the question to ask yourself now is whether it'll be funner for your group and yourself to be an uber Tashalatora grappler or to dabble in meldshaping to give yourself more options. Soul Manifester isn't helping your ability to melee, with its Half BAB and d4 HD. You're getting some nice meldshaping out of it, certainly, plus you could open up your Arm chakra with the Open Chakra power till you got it later on in Soul Manifester. Delaying your manifesting seems like the deal breaker, though, considering it's Psychic Warrior, I think losing 2 levels is a small price to pay for that really.

So, I guess in the end I vote Soul Manifester. *shrug*

Person_Man
2010-09-07, 04:43 PM
Only if you waive the size requirement on Reaping Mauler...

Except that Reaping Mauler is garbage. It requires:

+5 BAB
5 Ranks in Escape Artist, 5 Ranks in Tumble
Improved Unarmed Strike, Clever Wrestling
And a minor roleplaying requirement.

Note that +5 BAB excludes 3/4 BAB builds from entering the class until ECL 8, 2 levels later then full BAB classes. Escape Artist is a waste of Skill Points, since it only applies if your Escape Artist check is higher then your Grapple modifier (which it never will be if you have a moderately optimized Grapple build). Also Clever Wrestling is a waste of a feat because it only applies to when you try to escape from Grapples of creatures larger then Medium.

It grants:

Improved Grapple feat while unarmored or wearing light armor. By ECL 6-8 a Grapple build should already have Improved Grapple, and if possible, Scorpion's Grasp. That idea that you would wait until ECL 6 to get it and then nerf yourself by wearing light or no armor is a silly.
Mobility feat: Useless if you have Tumble, which is a requirement.
+2 to Grapple and Str checks while unarmored or light armor. A very minor bonus, again requiring an AC nerf.
Counter Grapple: Allows you to roll both an Escape Artist and Grapple check to free yourself. Again, why would you want to free yourself if you're a Grapple build? You should be making Grapple checks to kill your enemy with your souped up Unarmed Strike or natural weapon damage. The fact that you're locked in a Grapple is a good thing.
Sleeper Lock: Requires that you pin your opponent for 1 full round. Then he gets a Save or he's knocked unconscious for 1d3 rounds. In most cases, your enemy should be DEAD after 1 full round. Otherwise you haven't bothered to optimize your damage output. And even then, the Save DC is so poor, he'll make the check anyway. Oh, and plenty of creatures are immune to being knocked unconscious.
Devestating Grapple: Requires that you pin your opponent for 3 consecutive rounds, which will never happen. Then he has to make an easy Save DC or die. And plenty of creatures are immune.

So in summary, it sucks.

Keld Denar
2010-09-07, 05:10 PM
To whoever asked, I fully plan on picking up Open Lesser Chakra to get Kraken Mantle at ECL12, regardless of build, simply because I want it. SM won't get it till ~16 which is too long to wait. Its not a total waste of a feat, since even when that chakra opens on its own, the feat still gives a +2 unnamed bonus to grapple. Not great, but worth having Kraken Mantle earlier.

My main bind will be Girallon Claws to Totem, for the natural attacks (UAS/UAS/UAS/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Tentacle/Tentacle!), and the fact that when I pump essentia into it, I get awesome bonuses to my massive grapple check. I wanna be able to put a dragon in a headlock. Thats epic. Other than that, I was thinking of binding Sphinx Claws to my Hand Chakra, which frees up Psionic Lion's Charge as a required power (I'll probably take Hustle then), and shape Wormtail Belt for a little extra AC. My AC is decent due to +Wis and Augemented Inertial Armor. Not amazing, but respectable for an unarmored dude.

I also won't lose much in the way to PP, since I'll have Azure Talent, a required feat for Soul Manifester. Heck, that might even prompt me to take Midnight Augmentation to save a few PP on Expansion and a really twinked out Grip of Iron when needed.

Thanks all for the feedback! :) More comments are always appreciated.

Kantolin
2010-09-07, 08:04 PM
To whoever asked, I fully plan on picking up Open Lesser Chakra to get Kraken Mantle at ECL12, regardless of build, simply because I want it.


most Totemist soulmelds rely very heavily on unlocking higher level chakra slots

I'm not the most familiar with it, mind you, but wouldn't the 'Open Chakra, Psionic' power be preferable to this? It costs you some power points each morning (Get a power stone?), but it's a Psychic Warrior 4 power that you can just take to... well, do that.

This may make the Totemist option better. I also enjoy meldshapers due to the variety involved, but that's not what you're asking.

Keld Denar
2010-09-07, 08:20 PM
Only problem with that, normally a PsyWar gets 4th level powers at level 10. I have 2 levels of monk, which means I'd get Open Chakra at 12 at the earliest. Also, since you need to augement it by 6 points (13 PP total) and since YOU CAN NEVAR EVAR EVAR SPEND MORE PP THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS, that means level 13 at the earliest, barring something like Midnight Augementation, Overchannel, or a Torc of Power Preservation.

IF, however, I do the Totemist/SM route, I'd lose 2 more levels of PsyWar power developement, which would push Open Chakra back to 14, although thanks to Practiced Manifester, I could at that point manifest it with the augement I want. This is only 2 levels before I'd open those chakra up anyway with Soul Manifester progression, and 2 levels later than I'd open arms up if I took the feat at 12.

So yea, the feat seems to be the best choice for actually getting Constrict by level 12 for either build. Plus, it comes with a free +2 grapple, like I said.

Hmmmm, Open Chakra + Soul Manifester WOULD get me access to Throat or Waist Chakra by level 15, given that Soul Manifester can boost my ML by up to 2, again, barring anything like a Torc of Power Preservation or similar. I could have some fun with that...

Keld Denar
2010-09-15, 09:25 AM
So, I'm think I'm gonna go with Soul Manifester. What are some good Totemist soulmelds that give you decent things even if you don't invest much essentia into them? I'm probably gonna put some essentia into Azure Talent to make up for the PP I'm losing by not taking PsyWar levels, and the rest will probably go in Girallon Claws to increase my grapple checks. I was thinking Wormtail Belt for the +2 NA, since my AC is surprisingly decent for a grappler (no dex to lose, decent Wis, and Inertial Armor help), Blink Shirt (can put essentia into it OOC for utility teleports), and maybe something like Shedu Crown for immunity to bull rush?

Snake-Aes
2010-09-15, 09:43 AM
So, I'm think I'm gonna go with Soul Manifester. What are some good Totemist soulmelds that give you decent things even if you don't invest much essentia into them? I'm probably gonna put some essentia into Azure Talent to make up for the PP I'm losing by not taking PsyWar levels, and the rest will probably go in Girallon Claws to increase my grapple checks. I was thinking Wormtail Belt for the +2 NA, since my AC is surprisingly decent for a grappler (no dex to lose, decent Wis, and Inertial Armor help), Blink Shirt (can put essentia into it OOC for utility teleports), and maybe something like Shedu Crown for immunity to bull rush?
Check the totemist handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0)!

Keld Denar
2010-09-17, 10:05 AM
After some review of MoI and the Totemist Handbook, I think I'm gonna go with Girallon Arms and Rageclaws at Totemist1 most of the time, and then pick up Blink Shirt at Totemist2 while binding Girallon Arms to my Totem Chakra.

Anyone see any issues with this?

Person_Man
2010-09-17, 11:02 AM
After some review of MoI and the Totemist Handbook, I think I'm gonna go with Girallon Arms and Rageclaws at Totemist1 most of the time, and then pick up Blink Shirt at Totemist2 while binding Girallon Arms to my Totem Chakra.

Anyone see any issues with this?

Not really an issue, but more of another option you could consider if you wanted to.

Rage Claws is basically just Die Hard, which isn't that useful for a mid-high level build. I would dump it in favor of Dragon Tail (adds tail attack, Dragon Magic pg 44), Chaos Roc's Span (adds wing buffet attacks, Dragon Magazine 350 pg 87), Disenchanter Mask (at will Detect Magic, which is useful for scouting), or Threefold Mask of the Chimera (cannot be Flanked).

It's hard to argue with, Girillion Arms, which is awesome sauce for pretty much any melee build when bound.

However, you may wish to drop it in favor of binding your Blink Shirt to your Totem chakra instead. When unbound, Blink Shirt gives you Dimension Door as a Standard Action. When bound, it gives you Dimension Door as a Move Action. This has huge synergy with Hustle, which you have easy access to. Essentially you can Dimension Door as a Swift Action. Being bound to your Totem chakra also increases it's essentia capacity by 1, increasing the Blink Shirt's limited range of 10 ft + (10 ft * essentia invested).

Draz74
2010-09-17, 11:06 AM
However, you may wish to drop it in favor of binding your Blink Shirt to your Totem chakra instead. When unbound, Blink Shirt gives you Dimension Door as a Standard Action. When bound, it gives you Dimension Door as a Move Action. This has huge synergy with Hustle, which you have easy access to. Essentially you can Dimension Door as a Swift Action. Being bound to your Totem chakra also increases it's essentia capacity by 1, increasing the Blink Shirt's limited range of 10 ft + (10 ft * essentia invested).

Double Chakra (totem) always seemed like a required feat tax for any Totemist to me, anyway. Requires Meldshaper Level 9.

Person_Man
2010-09-17, 11:30 AM
Double Chakra (totem) always seemed like a required feat tax for any Totemist to me, anyway. Requires Meldshaper Level 9.

True that.

But with his current build, Monk2/PsyWar4/Totemiest2/SoulManifester10/PsyWar+2, he won't be able to access it until ECL 15.

Keld Denar
2010-09-17, 02:35 PM
Doesn't Dragon Tail require the Dragonblooded subtype? I'm a half giant, so that would require dropping a feat on Dragonblooded. I'm really trying to make my way down the Multigrab-Imp Multigrab feat tree right now so I can grapple multiple bad guys with no penalty. While technically, there is no limit to the number of bad guys you can grapple at that point, I figure realistically I could hold one in each hand, one in each tentacle, and 4 with my Girallon Arms for a total of 8 grappled baddies.

Person_Man, the only problem with Blink Shirting as a swift action is that its still based off Dim Door. That means that using it immediately ends your turn. It would only be good for retreating after a full attack, and given that I'm the BDF, I dunno if thats really the wisest approach. Just sayin...

I did just realize something fun though. With my monk levels, I qualify for the Sun School tactical feat, which means I can tele-bamf fools, which is all kinds of hillarious. Inexorable Approach of Dawn is also kinda cool for moving people around, especially with my large number of attacks.

Cieyrin
2010-09-17, 03:43 PM
I did just realize something fun though. With my monk levels, I qualify for the Sun School tactical feat, which means I can tele-bamf fools, which is all kinds of hillarious. Inexorable Approach of Dawn is also kinda cool for moving people around, especially with my large number of attacks.

Actually putting Sun School to good use with Blink Shirt/Hustle shenanigans is actually pretty awesome and I whole-heartedly approve. :smallbiggrin:

Snake-Aes
2010-09-17, 03:46 PM
Actually putting Sun School to good use with Blink Shirt/Blink Shirt shenanigans is actually pretty awesome and I whole-heartedly approve. :smallbiggrin:

Inconstant Location >: D 10 rounds of swift action-dimension door