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The Rabbler
2010-09-02, 09:35 PM
Background: I'm fairly inexperienced in DMing in general, and a group of friends asked me to DM a 4e game for them. I have always (ab)used 3.5 and have never used 4e at all. With that said, I'll get to the question.

What is a good challenge for a group of level 1s (3-5 of them), all of which are either completely new or fairly inexperienced with 4e, that won't destroy them? None of them will be making anything that resembles an optimized character, but I don't know what a level 1 player should reasonably be able to handle. Can the playground give me some tips?

EDIT: all books are allowed, in case it matters.

ashmanonar
2010-09-02, 09:49 PM
Background: I'm fairly inexperienced in DMing in general, and a group of friends asked me to DM a 4e game for them. I have always (ab)used 3.5 and have never used 4e at all. With that said, I'll get to the question.

What is a good challenge for a group of level 1s (3-5 of them), all of which are either completely new or fairly inexperienced with 4e, that won't destroy them? None of them will be making anything that resembles an optimized character, but I don't know what a level 1 player should reasonably be able to handle. Can the playground give me some tips?

EDIT: all books are allowed, in case it matters.

Unlike previous editions, where encounter design was part CR calculation and part weird unholy voodoo, encounter design for 4e is pretty straightforward.

Monsters are listed with certain XP values. Total encounter xp values for 4, 5, and 6 players of each level are listed in the DMG. Put monsters together to reach the desired encounter level, and you're basically done. An even level encounter is supposed to be moderately difficult (Ha, fat chance. Any level of optimization pushes the even level encounter into easy.) Each +1 to the level of the encounter makes it more difficult, up to about a +4 of party level, which is end-boss type difficulty.

(It obviously gets more complicated than that, because some monsters work better together than others. You've also got terrain and possible alternate goals to think of. If you're looking in the Monster Manuals, they actually list 1 or 2 example encounters for each type of monster right next to the monster stats.)

(Swordsaged! Okay, I'm only guessing. But still.)

(Holy hell, I didn't get swordsaged!)

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-09-02, 09:51 PM
I'm not sure if you're talking about an entire adventure or a single encounter here. I can't help with the former, so I'll assume the latter.

4e actually makes this part of DMing really simple. Each monster is worth a certain amount of XP, and you "buy" monsters for each encounter from a total amount of XP determined by the number of PCs and their level. The DMG has instructions and tables on page 56 for this.

Assuming 4 level-1 PCs, you want to use monsters whose XP totals around 400 or 500 for an average battle. 800 is the most you could possibly go without having an insta-kill, and 300 is probably the lowest you should go.

DMG page 58 has encounter templates based on monster type and PC level, but a good rule of thumb is to have one monster of the PCs' level for each PC (4 level-1 monsters vs. 4 level-1 PCs is a good standard battle).

Hope that answers your question!

(If you want a ready-to-play adventure, the Kobold Hall adventure in the back of the DMG is actually pretty decent. I think it assumes 5 PCs. You can also take a look in there to get a feel for how strong the encounters should be.)

EDIT: Ninja'd! What ashmanonar said is right, though an even-level encounter will definitely be in the middling-difficulty range if your players are as unoptimized as you say they are going to be. Plus those assume terrain favoring the monsters, so that's the DM's job.

The Rabbler
2010-09-02, 10:01 PM
Alright, this sounds fairly simple. Thanks for the explanations, both were very helpful.

Similarly, are there any monsters that I should definitely not send against a first level party?

Loren
2010-09-02, 10:02 PM
The previous posts are quite correct, it is a fairly simple matter to balance encounters if you have a DMG and a MM.

there are several adventures availible at http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/83-free-dd-adventures I can't speak to their quality, but I find it nice to be able to 'look over a DM's shoulder' at the least before trying to run a game.

ack, I've been s'saged

I've heard that kruthiks can cause TPKO's but no experience with them

tcrudisi
2010-09-02, 10:03 PM
First of all, if you are all new/inexperienced to 4e, then your players will expect a little bit of a learning curve while you figure out the right balance to combats in 4e.

Actually, the DMG covers it fairly nicely. You are used to the CR system, but obviously that has changed quite a bit. Now there are monsters done by the amount of xp they are worth (all non-minions of a certain level give the same amount of xp, and all minions give the same amount of xp dependent upon level). You then get an "XP budget" to spend when designing an encounter. For more information on this, see page 56 of the DMG.

Also, I really want to call your attention to page 42 of the DMG as well for "Actions the Rules Don't Cover". Basically, if your players want to do something like cutting a chandelier down so that it falls on an enemy -- this is the page you want. Please note that this page has had errata on it, so the "DC values" chart has changed (been made easier on the players, since it was discovered how hard it is to pass those values used as-is.

Actually, there's a laundry list of errata, but honestly - don't use it straight away. Just get the errata for that page and run with it. If you use the character builder then it has most of the errata in it anyway so you won't even have to worry about that.

One last piece of advice: the best and most fun way to bring diversity to your combat encounters is with the terrain. Put in memorable terrain features that the players and monsters can use/abuse. It'll be hard to figure out at first, but once you run an encounter with a fun terrain feature you will understand what I am saying.

Since you asked for an appropriate level 1 encounter, I'll give you one. Note that you didn't specify the exact number of characters, only the range of 3-5. You'll note that the DMG gives the "Target encounter xp" for 4, 5, and 6 PC's. You'll also note how easy it is to scale that to 3, should you desire.

Oh, one more thing - please dear god avoid any encounters of (players) level +5. Any more than that and they literally won't be able to hit the monster (except on maybe a 19+ die roll) and the monster won't be able to miss the players (except on a 1). Just... avoid it. In fact, avoid most level +4 or level +5 fights except for boss fights (until your players and you know what you are doing).

Assuming 5 characters, here's a level +1 encounter (encounter level 2 for 5 pc's has 625 budget xp):

2x guard drakes
3x elf archer/scout (3 total, not 3 of each)

4e is big on "refluffing". You don't want elves to be the bad guy? You prefer Goblins? No biggy - those "Elf Archers" are now "Goblin Archers".

(Actually, I shamelessly stole the suggested level 2 encounter printed at the end of the guard drakes section in the MM2)

Monsters you should definitely NOT send against a first level party? Anything level 5 or above. Really, monsters are very well balanced in 4e so you won't hear anyone say "lol the level 1 Orc is more like a level 12". Although one monster did get errata'ed -- uh... some sort of drake? I can't remember. Anyway, you should be fine. DM'ing is soooooo easy in 4e that you'll be able to spend most of your time focusing on the story-building rather than spending a couple of hours making the final BBEG.

Good luck!

The Rabbler
2010-09-02, 10:10 PM
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helpful stuff
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Monsters you should definitely NOT send against a first level party? Anything level 5 or above. Really, monsters are very well balanced in 4e so you won't hear anyone say "lol the level 1 Orc is more like a level 12". Although one monster did get errata'ed -- uh... some sort of drake? I can't remember. Anyway, you should be fine. DM'ing is soooooo easy in 4e that you'll be able to spend most of your time focusing on the story-building rather than spending a couple of hours making the final BBEG.

Good luck!

So WotC put some thought into the monster CR placements? This sounds like it won't be too much trouble. 3.5 had me paranoid :smalltongue:. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Thajocoth
2010-09-02, 10:16 PM
Alright, this sounds fairly simple. Thanks for the explanations, both were very helpful.

Similarly, are there any monsters that I should definitely not send against a first level party?

Monsters that a 1st level party shouldn't see conveniently have a level of 5 or higher.

Encounters should range from 1 level below the party at their weakest to 3 levels above at their strongest. It's ok to go 4 levels above occasionally, but if you do, count it as 2 encounters for calculating milestones. The average encounter should be one level above the party.

Since you and your players are all new... Drop a level off everything I just said for the first two encounters. After that, use what I just said.

The Rabbler
2010-09-02, 10:23 PM
Monsters that a 1st level party shouldn't see conveniently have a level of 5 or higher.

Encounters should range from 1 level below the party at their weakest to 3 levels above at their strongest. It's ok to go 4 levels above occasionally, but if you do, count it as 2 encounters for calculating milestones. The average encounter should be one level above the party.

Since you and your players are all new... Drop a level off everything I just said for the first two encounters. After that, use what I just said.

thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to use it.

Mando Knight
2010-09-02, 10:30 PM
Although one monster did get errata'ed -- uh... some sort of drake? I can't remember.

Needlefang Drake Swarm. It has a minor-action attack to knock people prone, can dish out a free melee basic to any enemy that starts its turn next to the swarm, and deals an extra die of damage to anything that's prone.

The kicker that put it in the "UPDATE NOW!" section? The damage dice were d10. And this creature isn't even level 5. Now it's down to a d6, but before that the swarm could spell doom for any party member with bad Fort (the defense that the knock-prone attack targeted).

Vitruviansquid
2010-09-02, 10:32 PM
Everything the people above said is sound, but also remember that you want to want to build an easier level 1 encounter since your group hasn't figured out the system yet.

I recommend either going with something slightly below xp budget or going with something at-budget, but then design the terrain or setting of the encounter to somehow give the players a small advantage.

For completeness sake, even though you probably already know this through common sense, be sure you understand all the rules about the monster before putting them in an encounter. I've seen two pretty harsh TPK's from the DM outright misinterpreting monster rules.

The Rabbler
2010-09-02, 10:33 PM
Needlefang Drake Swarm. It has a minor-action attack to knock people prone, can dish out a free melee basic to any enemy that starts its turn next to the swarm, and deals an extra die of damage to anything that's prone.

The kicker that put it in the "UPDATE NOW!" section? The damage dice were d10. And this creature isn't even level 5. Now it's down to a d6, but before that the swarm could spell doom for any party member with bad Fort (the defense that the knock-prone attack targeted).

That's the kind of poor thought-process that I was hoping to avoid in 4e. I'm glad it got updated.

holywhippet
2010-09-02, 10:34 PM
You might want to grab a copy of Dungeon Delve - it has prebuilt encounters for a range of character levels.

The Rabbler
2010-09-02, 10:35 PM
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helpful stuff
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For completeness sake, even you probably already know this through common sense, be sure you understand all the rules about the monster before putting them in an encounter. I've seen two pretty harsh TPK's from the DM outright misinterpreting monster rules.

I've almost committed a few of those TPK's myself. I don't really expect that from the low-level monsters, but I'll make sure I understand the monsters that I use later.



You might want to grab a copy of Dungeon Delve - it has prebuilt encounters for a range of character levels.

those of my players that have played before greatly dislike premade encounters. Probably worth looking into, but I generally don't use stuff that I don't make. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Eorran
2010-09-02, 10:41 PM
The monster roles are also helpful in building encounters. Really, though, I'd stress the importance of picking where the fight happens. In 4e by design, location matters almost as much as opposition.

The first fight can be simple, but as you go, I find my best encounters start with me dreaming up an awesome fight scene for an action-adventure type movie, then figuring out how to put that location into the story. Geyser fields, rope bridge spanning a chasm, the inside of an enormous well.

Dungeon Delve is a pretty good resource for encounter samples, and it's almost trivially easy to switch one monster for another or re-skin a monster in 4e.

tcrudisi
2010-09-02, 10:43 PM
those of my players that have played before greatly dislike premade encounters. Probably worth looking into, but I generally don't use stuff that I don't make. Thanks for the suggestion though.

So do I, but they were a great way to familiarize myself with the game without putting a lot of pressure on myself. I would ask if they would be okay if you ran just one, just to help learn the system. They really are good for that, although they are "railroady" and, well, mostly combat-oriented.

Hzurr
2010-09-02, 11:01 PM
If you're looking for a module to start with, I've heard fantastic things from everyone who has played the adventure "HS1: The Slaying Stone"

The Rabbler
2010-09-02, 11:11 PM
hmmm, I'll look into them.

Leolo
2010-09-03, 02:03 AM
You should also avoid putting too similar monsters together.

Not only that this can be boring. It can also change the difficulty by stacking benefits or drawbacks.

For example a group of foes attacking with area attacks can bring down a group that is not much schooled in tactical positioning fast - and goes down fast if the dm does not know enough about it. One of my tomb of horror like adventures included a fire beetle trap that releases 5 fire beetles (already errated) around the group for a surprise round. That results in very much damage, and still was only a level 1 encounter.

Terrain, tactical advantage and stacking monster strengths can heavily increase the difficulty.

You should wait until your players are experienced in using teamplay and their groups strengths before you use such tools on the monster side.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-03, 04:32 AM
Similarly, are there any monsters that I should definitely not send against a first level party?

There are a few instances where encounter design requires "weird unholy voodoo" because WOTC messed up the challenge rating on a monster and it is actually much tougher than it appears. The most well-known of these is the Needlefang Drake Swarm. Also, don't play archer monsters with "kiting" tactics, because this may well massacre an inexperienced party.

TheEmerged
2010-09-03, 07:56 AM
You might want to grab a copy of Dungeon Delve - it has prebuilt encounters for a range of character levels.

If you can afford it and find a copy without too much trouble, I strongly second this. Even if you don't run the actual encounters, it will give you a basis for how to set up the encounters and hazards.

If you've got money to burn, "Slaying Stone" isn't bad. It'll give you a better grasp of how skill challenges can work better than the initial materials did.

----------------

Looks like the important points have been already been covered, so here's some second-tier pointers.


Kurald mentioned avoiding ranged mobs with kiting abilities & tactics. I'll see this suggestion, and raise it by a "Also watch out for minions with ranged attacks at first." After about 3-5 encounters, the party should be familiar enough with the rules that this isn't a problem.
Pay attention to your party makeup when choosing monsters. The party I DM'd when we started included a wizard, a dragonborn, and a swordmage -- and I found that they tore through minions the way I tear through pineapple & bacon pizza. I continue to use minions (party will soon be 12th level, although the class mix has changed). I know another group of players that says they had trouble at first because their only decent source of ranged attacks was a wizard.
Now it doesn't apply to your level... but two other monster types I've seen problems with are wights and myconids. That "shift 3 squares when you hit" power of the wights drove my party crazy. The myconid ability to spread damage around greatly mitigates the standard tactic of focusing on one opponent.
Hazards are a great way to mix up encounters -- but can also frustrate your players if (like me) you start crossing the line into overdoing it.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-03, 09:38 AM
Oh, and here's some voodoo:
- Minions are weaker than they look. Treat 6 minions = 1 normal monster instead of 4. I suggest using more minions against novice players; they leave a lot of room for error and can give the PCs time to get a "feel" for the system.

- Brutes are weaker than they look. While not necessarially a whole level weaker, Brutes are unlikely to prove threatening without Leader or Controller back-up.

- Soldiers are stronger than they look. Use them sparingly - they work like mini-Elites.

- Solos are not actually solos. They're tough, but a party-vs.-solo Encounter ends poorly for the Solo and is usually rather boring. I'd avoid them entirely until you get comfortable with the Art of Encounter creation.
Generally speaking, be sure to mix up roles and don't be afraid to use the Monster Builder (read: DDI's Adventure Tools) to make creatures that you need. The most important thing to do is to make sure you always include some Artillery along with melee-types; an all-melee battle gets real boring, real fast.

Grynning
2010-09-03, 11:24 AM
A quick tip that may help you out - don't plan for the suggested 4 combat encounters per session starting out. Combat is going to take a lot longer in general than a 3.5 game, and if you guys are just dipping into 4th, figuring out powers, positioning and movement will drag it out even longer. I would suggest throwing in a simple skill challenge with a roleplay "encounter" for your first couple games; skill challenges are fairly easy to come up with on the fly and are fun way to float the party some XP without a long slugfest.

(Just ignore the original DMG's rules for skill challenges, which are terrible. Read the updated ones if you can, or just set a "best x out of x rolls" number and let people creatively apply their skills to the situation).

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-03, 12:52 PM
I know it's quite a bit out of subject, but I DMed my first D&D4 session today, and it was pure pleasure. You'll get the hang of Encounters pretty quickly. And yes, being used to the CR system can be confusing at first look.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-03, 12:53 PM
Oh, and here's some voodoo:
Good points, especially about solos. A good hint for beginning DMs is to never use a solo monster alone, but instead accompany it with some minions or a leader or whatever. The term "solo" is just a fluff-word and does not imply that the monster has to be alone.

The reason is that any halfway-decent party will have status effects, and a lone monster is going to be subject to all of them. At once. Expect your monster to spend the combat dazed, marked, immobilized, cursed, quarried, blinded, slowed, and prone all at the same time.

Oh yeah, another suggestion. If you end up in the kind of combat where both sides are reduced to spamming their at-will powers, and it's clear that the players are going to win and the monsters are no longer a serious threat, declare victory for the PCs and end the combat. It's generally no fun slogging through another 200-300 hit points if the outcome is already clear.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-03, 01:19 PM
Oh yeah, another suggestion. If you end up in the kind of combat where both sides are reduced to spamming their at-will powers, and it's clear that the players are going to win and the monsters are no longer a serious threat, declare victory for the PCs and end the combat. It's generally no fun slogging through another 200-300 hit points if the outcome is already clear.
As a corallary, try to avoid monsters that have effects that make them more durable. Heals, THP, and DR should be used sparingly; they cause combat to drag on instead of be fun. Substitute instead reanimation (creature revives 1 turn after it dies at Bloodied HP) or bodyguarding (another creature takes half of the damage); these are interesting mechanics that can make key monsters harder to kill without actually slowing down the pace of battle.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-03, 01:28 PM
As a corallary, try to avoid monsters that have effects that make them more durable.
Oh yeah. One of the most annoying battles I've been in was against monsters that are insubstantial (thus halving the damage you do), weaken you (thus again halving the damage you do), and on top of that regenerate (thus, well, you get the point here).

Jaidu
2010-09-03, 01:34 PM
Oh yeah, another suggestion. If you end up in the kind of combat where both sides are reduced to spamming their at-will powers, and it's clear that the players are going to win and the monsters are no longer a serious threat, declare victory for the PCs and end the combat. It's generally no fun slogging through another 200-300 hit points if the outcome is already clear.

I agree with this, and in my group we will often have 2-3 PCs trade a healing surge to end a fight early. The idea behind this is that a few more rounds of combat might cost enough HP to be worth a surge or two, but the PCs will usually handle it.

A few more thoughts:
I never use a minion that just has a melee basic attack and no other traits or features because they tend to group up and get mowed down pretty quickly. Minions can be great for flavor, though, since they can make a village, fort, etc. seem like it has a lot of creatures without breaking the experience curve.

I have found very few solos to be interesting, especially as boss fights, since players tend to save their daily attacks for bosses and neutralize the challenge. There are a few exceptions to this (the tembo at the recent Dark Sun Game Day comes to mind) but most of them lead to very boring fights.

Even level fights are fine to introduce players to the game, but once they get a bit used to it and their characters get a little more steamlined, I would say that anything less than a +2 level fight can get really, really easy.

kyoryu
2010-09-03, 01:46 PM
If you're looking for a module to start with, I've heard fantastic things from everyone who has played the adventure "HS1: The Slaying Stone"

I'm teaching my wife and daughter to play, and using HS1. It's not bad. The skill challenges felt somewhat awkward to me, but that's the only real criticism I have.

One thing to note is that it throws a *ton* of enemy types at the players - kobolds, goblins, orcs, iron defenders, wolves, an ankheg, stirges and other vermin, and a (non-combat) encounter with a dragon. It's not *bad*, it's just not my typical style and so I felt it was worth noting.

If you're new to 4e, I will tell you not to worry about the power of the encounters - we haven't had a serious problem taking anything down yet.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-09-03, 01:51 PM
Also, I would avoid using NPCs as standard monsters, at least as per the NPC creation rules. They claim they are balanced, but they aren't. One of the toughest fights my players ever went through (barely saved themselves from TPK) was what should have been an even-level encounter versus some NPCs. If you must have the players fight a rogue, wizard, or monk, pick some powers that you think fit the theme of the NPC and use them to create a monster as per the monster creation rules. This makes them way more balanced in terms of damage, number of powers, etc.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-03, 01:55 PM
Also, I would avoid using NPCs as standard monsters, at least as per the NPC creation rules. They claim they are balanced, but they aren't. One of the toughest fights my players ever went through (barely saved themselves from TPK) was what should have been an even-level encounter versus some NPCs. If you must have the players fight a rogue, wizard, or monk, pick some powers that you think fit the theme of the NPC and use them to create a monster as per the monster creation rules. This makes them way more balanced in terms of damage, number of powers, etc.
Actually, avoid using the NPC creation rules entirely. It's easy enough to just throw some powers together instead of trying to cobble together a bunch of templates.

Also, DDI is your friend. $10 gets you (and at least 3 of your friends) a fully updated Character Builder and Monster Builder - and those two tools alone make D&D4 so much easier. Note that all of you get to keep those programs even after your DDI membership expires.

The Rabbler
2010-09-04, 09:53 AM
Also, DDI is your friend.

What is DDI?

and to everyone else, thanks for the replies, they're all good stuff to know.

tcrudisi
2010-09-04, 10:25 AM
DDI is a monthly subscription ($10/mo.) that gives you a monster builder, a character builder, access to all the Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and the compendium.

As if all that wasn't awesome enough, you get 5 downloads of it in that month, so many people share it with their friends.

The character builder is flat-out amazing. Making characters has never been easier. I've never used the monster builder, but I've heard great things. You can download all the Dungeon magainzes and Dragon magazines so you have a copy of all of them. The compendium is basically a search engine that gives you EVERYTHING 4e related when you do a search. It's pretty darn awesome, too.

And the beautiful thing? You buy it for one month and you get to keep everything except the compendium when it expires. Any magazines you've downloaded, well, they are already on your computer. The character builder gets updated once a month, but you'll have a nicely updated version anyway which you can still use. Same for the monster builder.

Really, you will probably want to pay the $10 every few months just to get the most recent magazines and update your character builder - and remember, it works for yourself and 4 others!

/edit And I just realized that I answered everything except your actual question. DDI is Dungeons & Dragons Insider.

The Rabbler
2010-09-04, 12:26 PM
DDI is a monthly subscription ($10/mo.) that gives you a monster builder, a character builder, access to all the Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and the compendium.

As if all that wasn't awesome enough, you get 5 downloads of it in that month, so many people share it with their friends.

The character builder is flat-out amazing. Making characters has never been easier. I've never used the monster builder, but I've heard great things. You can download all the Dungeon magainzes and Dragon magazines so you have a copy of all of them. The compendium is basically a search engine that gives you EVERYTHING 4e related when you do a search. It's pretty darn awesome, too.

And the beautiful thing? You buy it for one month and you get to keep everything except the compendium when it expires. Any magazines you've downloaded, well, they are already on your computer. The character builder gets updated once a month, but you'll have a nicely updated version anyway which you can still use. Same for the monster builder.

Really, you will probably want to pay the $10 every few months just to get the most recent magazines and update your character builder - and remember, it works for yourself and 4 others!

/edit And I just realized that I answered everything except your actual question. DDI is Dungeons & Dragons Insider.

hmmm... sounds worth looking into. thanks :)

cdrcjsn
2010-09-04, 01:00 PM
Coming from 3e, lots of DMs used average party level +2 to make a suitable encounter for PCs (i.e. if the party level was 5, then a CR7 encounter was a good, challenging encounter)

If you build a party level +2 encounters in 4e, it will likely result in the dreaded grind at heroic level.

For the most part, most of your encounters should be level -1 (easy, warm up fight) to level +1 (decent challenge, but not overly so)

Level +2 should be saved for a climax.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-04, 01:11 PM
If you build a party level +2 encounters in 4e, it will likely result in the dreaded grind at heroic level.
This does not match my experience at all.

Rather, I would suggest +1 for an easy warm-up fight, and +3 to +4 for a climax. Of course it depends on how your party plays, but by the design principles, a level+0 encounter should be easy for the party to handle multiple times per day.

tcrudisi
2010-09-04, 01:37 PM
This does not match my experience at all.

Rather, I would suggest +1 for an easy warm-up fight, and +3 to +4 for a climax. Of course it depends on how your party plays, but by the design principles, a level+0 encounter should be easy for the party to handle multiple times per day.

I think it also depends heavily upon the level of optimization your group possesses. Since they are new to 4e, I would do level or level +1 for most fights. I would only do level -1 for a fight that I wanted them to win really quickly. You will be able to tell after a couple of fights if they had a really easy time or not. If so, increase it by +1. When you want a climactic fight, then definitely go with level +3 or level +4 ... and level +5 for the hardest of the hard.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-04, 02:26 PM
This does not match my experience at all.

Rather, I would suggest +1 for an easy warm-up fight, and +3 to +4 for a climax. Of course it depends on how your party plays, but by the design principles, a level+0 encounter should be easy for the party to handle multiple times per day.

Errr... Yes, I strongly second tcrudisi on this. I made a thread last week on my gaming group getting tremendously ass-kicked by encounters CR -3. Well, it appeared the DM used a lot of MM2 materials, which seems to be infamous for unsuitable CR level, but that's still the point: warm up fight should be negative CR.

Kylarra
2010-09-04, 02:29 PM
Errr... Yes, I strongly second tcrudisi on this. I made a thread last week on my gaming group getting tremendously ass-kicked by encounters CR -3. Well, it appeared the DM used a lot of MM2 materials, which seems to be infamous for unsuitable CR level, but that's still the point: warm up fight should be negative CR.4e has generally better CRing than 3.X.

NeoVid
2010-09-04, 03:29 PM
Similarly, are there any monsters that I should definitely not send against a first level party?

Don't use the non-errataed versions of Needlefang Drakes or Fire Beetles.

ashmanonar
2010-09-13, 09:43 PM
DDI is a monthly subscription ($10/mo.) that gives you a monster builder, a character builder, access to all the Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and the compendium.

As if all that wasn't awesome enough, you get 5 downloads of it in that month, so many people share it with their friends.

The character builder is flat-out amazing. Making characters has never been easier. I've never used the monster builder, but I've heard great things. You can download all the Dungeon magainzes and Dragon magazines so you have a copy of all of them. The compendium is basically a search engine that gives you EVERYTHING 4e related when you do a search. It's pretty darn awesome, too.

And the beautiful thing? You buy it for one month and you get to keep everything except the compendium when it expires. Any magazines you've downloaded, well, they are already on your computer. The character builder gets updated once a month, but you'll have a nicely updated version anyway which you can still use. Same for the monster builder.

Really, you will probably want to pay the $10 every few months just to get the most recent magazines and update your character builder - and remember, it works for yourself and 4 others!

/edit And I just realized that I answered everything except your actual question. DDI is Dungeons & Dragons Insider.

I heartily suggest using DDI, (I was just screwing around with the Monster Builder tonight) but I had a terrible time trying to make it work on my computer after I let people in my group download it from my downloads. Word of warning.

(Essentially, they didn't actually intend you to share the account with friends; they give you 5 downloads so you don't get screwed by a bad download.)

Thajocoth
2010-09-13, 10:05 PM
I'm going to advise against using newer monsters on a first level party. MM3 stuff and later is strong enough to wipe most parties, based on the last two sessions I played in. After a few more levels, this shouldn't be an issue.