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Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-03, 01:09 AM
So my friend and i were discussing how to make a Fremen (from Dune) inspired knife fighter. I was going for a Ranger as the base class, for the outdoorsy survival skill-ness, and maybe the Invisible Blade PrC... Except its practically impossible to do at mid levels. to have a high enough Bluff and Sense Motive to get into Invisible Blade, you'd have to be a level 13!

This is slowly becoming an obsession of mine. I've been pouring through books all day in an attempt to make this a reality. You all need to help me out!

The only real requirement is that they have TWF with daggers, be awesome with them, and survival skillness, and a decent base attack bonus. Maybe Im too hung up on the ranger thing, but it feels so right...

Please end my suffering, and help me out. OR tell me its impossible and I need to give up. Just something.

dgnslyr
2010-09-03, 01:19 AM
It may have been said way too much, but TWF needs supplemental damage. Ranger would fit the flavor of the class, and Swift Hunter lets Ranger and Scout stack for purposes of skirmish and Favored Enemy. I'm not too familiar with Invisible blade, what book is it from? I'm sure a few levels of Scout would help your damage, and add some more nice abilities. Also, don't use daggers, use kukris. I seem to recall crysknives being curved, so the curved -bladed kukri may not be entirely inappropriate. A ranger/scout with swift hunter(CS) and skirmish damage could work fine. If you like crits, Aptitude (ToB) kukris with Lightning Maces (CW) feat should be yummy. Aptitude lets the weapon apply to weapon-specific feats that it normally doesn't qualify as.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 01:23 AM
Also, a TWF Swordsage (Tome of Battle) could be built into what you're looking for, with Kukris, Blood in the Water, and maybe Stormguard Warrior. And it has a mystical quality, perfect for your budding Kwisatz Haderach.

gorfnab
2010-09-03, 01:28 AM
2+ levels in Swordsage will get you that nice "The Weirding Way" feel especially with Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. Throw in some Diamond Mind and Setting Sun for some "Prana Bindu" like training.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-03, 01:28 AM
Invisible blade is from the Complete Warrior.

Im a gonna say no to kukris, because I hate wasting a feat on exotic weapons if I can help it. Critical hits are situational, I prefer not relying on them. The Scout and Swift Hunter might be a good idea though. However, I dislike the amount of cheese necessary to make TWF and Scouts work well together.

I do not have the Tome of Battle, so thats out.

I was thinking of maybe Wilderness Rogue and/or Martial Rogue? But again, the Ranger just feels so right... I feel you could get that superstitious feel with a bit of Arcane Hunter -ness. Pretend that spellcasters are Harkonnens... hehe.

Daelen
2010-09-03, 01:34 AM
I will probably get swordsage'd in saying this, but the kukri is a martial weapon, not exotic, in 3.5. I don't know if that is different from other editions or not.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 01:39 AM
While it's true that Criticals are typically highly situational, they can be made to work rather well. It's too bad you don't have ToB though, as it has some fantastic options for mêlée types. Anyhow, how about a sneaky, sneak attacking wizard with levels in Daggerspell Mage (Complete Adventurer, Pg. 31), Unseen Seer (Complete Mage, Pg. 81, for the Ranger Spell Hunter's Eye, to grant more Sneak Attack dice), and whatever else suits the build and your fancy? The Wizard gives you utility and mobility, and the rest give you effectiveness with TWF Daggers (or Kukris, or whatever you choose). This build (well, a build built on these bones) would suit you well I think.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-03, 01:39 AM
Oh. Damn. so it is a martial weapon. Heh. Must be a hold over from my 3.0 days. Sorry guys, I've played every edition of D&D at some point, and so sometimes, things get hazy... Yeah... I can remember when 3.0 first came out, haha. sometimes, these rules from 3.0 get carried over in my head sometimes..

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-03, 01:41 AM
Wizard doesnt fit the flavor of what I'm looking for, Im well aware I can make a wizard do anything better than class X, but Im looking for non magic solutions here. thanks though!

RandomAction
2010-09-03, 01:46 AM
Well now. I will say a Ranger(TWF feats), Barbarian(Pounce variant), Swashbuckler (Int added to light weapon damage) and a few levels of Scout (adding in Skirmish damage). Full attack charge to your hearts content.

gorfnab
2010-09-03, 01:53 AM
Sandstorm has a lot of Dune like elements in it like the Hydration "Still" Suit. There is also the very Fremen like Ashworm Dragoon prestige class. Now if only you could somehow trade the Ashworm for the Dunewinder...

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 01:54 AM
Then might I recommend a Daring Outlaw (Rogue, Player's Hand Book, Pg. 49; Swashbuckler, Complete Warrior, Pg. 11, Daring Outlaw, Complete Scoundrel, Pg. 76)? Take at least three levels of each class (for feat prereqs and Insightful Strike), add Daring Outlaw, mix additional levels to taste (More Swash grants better HD and BAB, more Rogue grants more skills, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, etc. etc.). Add Two Weapon Fighting and its brethren, Keen Kukris (cause they're better than just knives and you are proficient), and you've got someone ready for a Knife Fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ6f5r64F-I). The only issues are the lack of ability to make a full attack and move more than five feet (A one level dip into Cloistered Cleric and Travel Devotion will fix this) and the other issues with flexibility that come of being a mundane in a magic world (these are somewhat mitigated by mostly Rogue levels for the skills, abilities, and UMD). But other than that it's pretty solid.

Edit: Oh, and Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (Maybe with the Ferocity Rage variant from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to benefit your Initiative in addition to bonus strength, or Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana for more attacks, which benefits you) can basically replace the Cleric dip, as long as you can charge everywhere (as it nets you Pounce) but is less versatile as charging isn't always an option (Though with Battle Jump from Unapproachable East it becomes easier - you charge if you drop five or more feet onto your target, thereby triggering pounce, check with your DM on the damage multiplier applying to sneak attack though, as I didn't think it would multiply but I've had DMs that did).

RandomAction
2010-09-03, 02:00 AM
A 1 level dip into Barbarian, variant in Complete Champion, will net you pounce into that mix, Kalaska'Agathas.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 02:06 AM
Yeah, I was editing to include that when you posted! The Cleric dip for Travel Devotion is more versatile, but more limited (you can only use it 1+n/day where n=uses of Turn Undead if I remember correctly), whereas Pounce is usable all the time you can charge, but you may not always be able to charge (though Battle Jump makes that easier, as I said). Each has its trade-offs, but between the two you should be able to full attack and move every (or most) rounds, if you need to.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-03, 02:35 AM
So... you are basically describing an INT based uber charger variant that doesnt use power attack? I dunno buddy, I don't think in needs to be that complex. It just needs to have the right flavor and a modicum of optimization, just enough to make knife fighting worth it. I dont feel the swashbuckler is right for it, though I am a fan of the Daring Outlaw builds.

Sandstorm was alright, but still, not quite the right flavor... I just want an outdoorsy knife fighter. Damn D20 and its limits... Sometimes, you really can make anything with 3.5. And somehow, it will work, and often, there is a simple way to do it. But when I want to make a wilderness warrior who uses knives well, the simplicity falls apart.. haha.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 12:39 PM
I recommended a Cleric dip precisely because I didn't think you wanted an Ubercharger (I'd think that it fits a bit better, flavor wise, representing the Weirding Way or Prana Bindu, whichever way you want to couch it). And instead of the regular Rogue, you could use the Wilderness Rogue variant, to get the outdoorsy flavor and abilities.

Another option would be Cloistered Cleric 1 (for skills and Travel Devotion)/Ranger 1/Scout 1/Ranger X/Scout Y. Take the TWF combat style, cast Hunter's Eye, go to town.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Swift Hunter.

Erom
2010-09-03, 12:49 PM
Damn D20 and its limits... Sometimes, you really can make anything with 3.5. And somehow, it will work, and often, there is a simple way to do it. But when I want to make a wilderness warrior who uses knives well, the simplicity falls apart.. haha.
Get TOB. It's really the simplest, easiest, and rightest way to do this.

Rigor_Mortis
2010-09-03, 01:27 PM
Or go homebrew your own.
Lots of folks could help you out with that, and I'd be interested to see what you come up with.

Diarmuid
2010-09-03, 01:44 PM
{Scrubbed}

Urpriest
2010-09-03, 02:03 PM
For a simple, low-optimization solution, Wilderness Rogue should be fine.

Jyokage
2010-09-03, 02:25 PM
As long as you can accept a "The ends justify the means" school of character building, you could go 1 level of barbarian with the Favored Enemy and Pounce variants, (Check Crystal Keep), Then go Ranger with the Solitary hunting variant, (You get your favored enemy bonus to attack and damage, but lose your pet). Voila` twf with some sort of long knife (might I recommend the dragonsplit refluffed as a dueling knife?), some magic (to taste, depending on your variant), and your will have covered your "dual knife fighter with serious survival abilities". Try to convince your DM that the Favored enemy bonuses should be stacking like normally outlined in the Ranger class. :-)

Cespenar
2010-09-03, 03:07 PM
Go Psychic Warrior and get some Clairsentience and Psychometabolism buffs. Go PsyWar/Monk Tashalatora if you wish.

realbombchu
2010-09-03, 03:08 PM
Modify the Fighter class in the following ways. Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, and Saves remain the same.

Change Armor and Weapon Proficiencies to match the Rogue.

Change skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier. Add Bluff, Knowledge (nature), Sleight of Hand, and Survival to your class skill list. Add Track to your list of bonus feats.

Allow yourself to qualify for weapon specific feats two levels earlier if you choose dagger.

That might work, right?

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 03:12 PM
I've just reread Invisible Blade, and while its ability to feint as (eventually) a free action would be great for a knife fighter, the requirement of Far Shot and Point Blank Shot seems odd. But if you're willing to take those, then it would work well with either the Wilderness Rogue Daring Outlaw or the Solitary Hunter Ranger Swift Hunter, as it would allow them to get sneak attacks without flanking etc.

The builds would look something like this:
Cloistered Cleric 1 or Pounce+other variants Barb 1/Rogue 3/Swash 3/Invisible Blade 5/Rogue X/Swash Y

or

Cloistered Cleric 1 or Pounce+other variants Barb 1/Rogue 1 (Wilderness variant, for Bluff, you'll need to be human or changeling to get Able learner to get the requisite skills for Invisible blade)/Ranger 1/Scout 1/Ranger or Scout 1/Invisible Blade 5/Ranger X/Scout Y

Either of these would work, just pick up the requisite feats (Travel Devotion, the TWF chain, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Kukri, Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter, Able Learner for the Ranger build, and whatever else you like.

realbombchu
2010-09-03, 03:24 PM
Is Aptitude a feat? Or do you mean the Warblade ability? Because I have my Tome of Battle out, and I don't see a feat called Aptitude. I'm probably just missing it though. I don't know the book well yet.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 03:32 PM
Aptitude is a Weapon enhancement.

realbombchu
2010-09-03, 03:35 PM
Aptitude is a Weapon enhancement.

Oh, okay. I see it now. I kind of wish it was a feat, though. Oh well, thanks.

Human Paragon 3
2010-09-03, 03:41 PM
I can't believe nobody has mentioned Factotum yet.

You can multiclass ranger and factotum just fine, use Inspiration Points for extra damage, then eventually get extra standard actions. At really high levels you can mimic rage and skirmish!

Use your arcane dillitante ability to boost your knife fighting ability or to cherrypick weirding way like abilities (charm person? command?)

Go into invisible blade if you feel like it.

Human Paragon 3
2010-09-03, 03:44 PM
One other suggestion:

Generic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior). You need DM permission since you're technically not supposed to mix them with normal classes, but the non-spellcasting generic classes are not over powered. You get to pick your own class skills for the survival, hiding and tumbling you crave, and you can take sneak attack dice as a feat! You give up heavy armor, but as a Fremen knife fighter, you won't need it.

EDIT: One last suggestion. I am also very partial to Human Paragon. You get a bonus feat, any class skills you want (one of which you get to keep for your entire career) and a stat boost so you can get the unreal constitution of a fremen. Generic Warrior/Human Paragon/Invisible Blade would be tight.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-03, 04:20 PM
Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter feat is a very good way to get bonus damage per hit, and free TWF feats in the bargain.

For the rest... I strongly suggest Dervish as the PrC, which will give you a really good 'feel', with plenty of attacks with a blade and stuff

TroubleBrewing
2010-09-03, 04:46 PM
I can provide a build that a friend of mine and I worked up that we referred to as "The Lawnmower 2000". I do not recall the exact feats or skills, but I will try to provide them whenever they are necessary for the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class. For the purposes of determining power level, this works out being Tier 3, according to the Brilliant Gameologists system.

As I recall, it went a little something like this:

Requirements: Dex 13, Int 13

Class Breakdown: Barbarian 1/Generic Warrior 2/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Invisible Blade 5

Basically, you don't want to get involved with TWF stuff too early. It's crap, to be honest. But with Generic Warrior (d20SRD), we get some pretty cool stuff with almost no investment. Here's how it looks:

Level 1: Barbarian 1- Grab spirit lion totem for pounce. Once you've got Dervish levels, you'll be full attacking and moving all over the battlefield, but until then, you'll be charging and then stabbing them in the face with your Kukri, because as your Human bonus feat you took Weapon Focus - Kukri. Also at first level, we get Combat Expertise.

Level 2: Fighter 1- Basically, we just want Dodge.

Level 3: Fighter 2- Here, we grab Mobility as our bonus feat. As our 3rd level feat, we want Point Blank Shot, because for some weird reason, Invisible Blade (an EXCLUSIVELY dagger class) requires it.

Level 4: Generic Warrior 1- Here's where the shenanigans and tomfoolery begin. Generic Warrior is almost identical to Fighter, in the same way that soy milk is identical to regular milk: one is squeezed out of an animal's body by a creepy milk vampire machine; the other, by contrast, is better for you in every way. You can grab up class features (from a list, helpfully provided by the SRD, in the class description) in place of feats. Those feats, by the way, do not have to be of the "fighter bonus feat" variety, oh no sir! They can be ANY FEAT FOR WHICH YOU MEET THE PREREQUISITES. Admittedly, this build does not take advantage of this, but for future reference, Generic Warrior = win. Anyway. We want a class feature off this list, and we want Sneak Attack! It gives us +2d6 sneak attack damage. Great, we're already caught up to Rogue progression, and we've got full BAB and d12+3d10 health!

Level 5: Generic Warrior 2- This level is all about flavor. You wanted a wilderness, stabby type, right? GW 1 got us our stabby, now for our wilderness! We nab the "Wild Empathy" class feature, and we're a little more druidic.

Level 6: Dervish 1- Now we get into the meat and potatoes of this build. Dervish is a nasty little whirlwind of death, and I'm proud to include it in this build. We also get Far Shot as our 6th level feat!

Level 7: Invisible Blade 1- And now we are complete. My suggestion is to alternate the two prestige classes all the way up to 20. Start taking TWF stuff at level 9, and you should be good to go.

In the interest of full disclosure, what took me 7 levels, 5 classes, 4 websites, 2 books, and a notebook to accomplish could have been done with 1 class, no websites, 1 book, and maaaaybe the notebook. The book is ToB, and the class is, frankly, any of the 3 base classes provided within. Warblade would be my personal suggestion.

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-03, 05:57 PM
Personally I'd vote Swordsage (as Fremen seem more WIS than INT to me) but whatever floats your boat.

But yeah, given that ToB has nine sets of flavorful abilities including things like

Diamond Mind: Use intense concentration to fight with elegance and lethality. Stab their weak point and thus make your next attack a Touch Attack. Make a Concentration check instead of a reflex save. Get a bonus to AC every time the enemy misses.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-03, 08:18 PM
wow. that was like, 8 million replies. Didnt think this would be so interesting... Thanks for the ideas everyone! Im just mulling things around at this point, poking interesting ideas until something even more interesting falls out of them...

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-03, 08:24 PM
oh and NOTE:

You can get all the ToB manuevers for free online! Legally! They posted the whole catalog for easy reference.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-03, 11:23 PM
Yes they did, along with the Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). Focused on Tiger Claw and Diamond mind, along with two weapon fighting, and you've got yet another option for your Fremen Knife Fighter.

Hawriel
2010-09-04, 01:34 AM
just jumping to the end here.

I think there is a woodland type rogue variant in unearthed arcana, or some other book some ware. Maybe this will get your ranger skill set and requirments for the invisiable blade. Fremen should have sneak attack. They are good ambush fighters.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-04, 02:30 AM
Dragon Magazine #325 has an article on Dune, starting on page 32. It's short but gives you the orangespice and sandworms. You should really work that in. Also Sandstorm, with the stillsuit. Is there a human racial variant that would be appropriate?

Greenish
2010-09-04, 11:10 AM
Is there a human racial variant that would be appropriate?MoI has, rather unsurprisingly, a human subrace with blue eyes, the azurin. Trades human bonus skillpoints for more essentia.

Urpriest
2010-09-04, 11:41 AM
I'd actually advise the sand-swimming race from Sandstorm, the Asherati. I really think they were intended to be D&D Fremen.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-04, 12:56 PM
MoI has, rather unsurprisingly, a human subrace with blue eyes, the azurin. Trades human bonus skillpoints for more essentia.

And because of Incarnum's Meldshaper Level = Meldshaping Class levels + 1/2 All Other Classes, those classes make for great dips. If you did add an Incarnum dip, I'd recommend the Incarnate rather than the Totemist, as the Totemist is focused on natural weapons whereas the Incarnate would give you meldshapes that grant you skills and special abilities that benefit your knife fighting.

Or you could just get an Incarnum feat to use your (Azurin's) essentia. Of these, Indigo Strike (Magic of Incarnum, Pg. 38) seems like it would be amenable to this build, providing bonus damage to your sneak attack or skirmish ability.

Having said all of that, it seems to me that the fluff of Incarnum wouldn't fit with the flavor you want.

true_shinken
2010-09-04, 01:03 PM
And because of Incarnum's Meldshaper Level = Meldshaping Class levels + 1/2 All Other Classes, those classes make for great dips.
Nope, you are thinking ToB. Meldshapers don't work like that.

Greenish
2010-09-04, 02:17 PM
I'd actually advise the sand-swimming race from Sandstorm, the Asherati. I really think they were intended to be D&D Fremen.I don't remember the fremen swimming in the sand or emitting light.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-09-04, 02:27 PM
Nope, you are thinking ToB. Meldshapers don't work like that.

I could have sworn...Hmmm, I wonder where I got that impression from.

Urpriest
2010-09-04, 02:41 PM
I don't remember the fremen swimming in the sand or emitting light.

Look at the Orangeseer in the Dragon article on Dune. I guess it's superficially similar to a Navigator, but only just. D&D's approach to Dune is traditionally to make it resemble the source material as little as possible.

Greenish
2010-09-04, 03:22 PM
D&D's approach to Dune is traditionally to make it resemble the source material as little as possible.I'm not sure that's a trait worth copying. :smallamused:

[Edit]:
I could have sworn...Hmmm, I wonder where I got that impression from.Maybe it's the fact that meldshaper level only affects dispelling and feat access, so you don't actually lose much just for losing it.