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View Full Version : [3.5] Hengeyokai Warshaper Dip



Crasical
2010-09-03, 05:01 AM
According to Dragon 318, Hengeyokai are now Humanoids with Shapeshifter subtype, and no longer have an LA. This means they qualify for the Warshaper PRC from the complete warrior.

Is it worth a dip? First level gets immunity to stunning and crits, and gives you d6 natural weapons. Two gets you a +4 to str and con, 3 gets you an additional 5 feet of reach, 4 gets you fast healing 2 and the ability to heal yourself for 10 points of damage by making a concentration check and a full-round action, 5 gets you... nothing very useful. It doesn't improve caster level and doesn't increase BAB at every level though, and I wanted my Hengeyokai to be a caster.

I was planning on making an irish witch with my Hengeyokai, so I was considering taking Sorcerer 8/Warshaper 2, or Bard 6/Warshaper 4.

Edit: Also, if I go the bard path, is it possible to get get 3rd level spells at level 6 so I can start taking Sublime Chord past level 10?

Amphetryon
2010-09-03, 05:22 AM
Warshaper is one of the better dips available, in general. It gives a solid return on investment for a 1 - 2 level dip.

That said, Thou Shalt Not Give Up Caster Levels! Warshaper would be less painful on a class that doesn't rely as intrinsically on spells and their DCs as a Sorcerer does. Warlock, for example, could benefit.

The other option is using Warshaper as a springboard to a Gish class like Abjurant Champion, but that requires another dip for weapon and armor proficiency for almost every concept I can think of.

T.G. Oskar
2010-09-03, 05:38 AM
According to Dragon 318, Hengeyokai are now Humanoids with Shapeshifter subtype, and no longer have an LA. This means they qualify for the Warshaper PRC from the complete warrior.

Is it worth a dip? First level gets immunity to stunning and crits, and gives you d6 natural weapons. Two gets you a +4 to str and con, 3 gets you an additional 5 feet of reach, 4 gets you fast healing 2 and the ability to heal yourself for 10 points of damage by making a concentration check and a full-round action, 5 gets you... nothing very useful. It doesn't improve caster level and doesn't increase BAB at every level though, and I wanted my Hengeyokai to be a caster.

I was planning on making an irish witch with my Hengeyokai, so I was considering taking Sorcerer 8/Warshaper 2, or Bard 6/Warshaper 4.

Edit: Also, if I go the bard path, is it possible to get get 3rd level spells at level 6 so I can start taking Sublime Chord past level 10?

Whether it's worth a dip or not, that's debatable. You're a caster, so spells are usually more important than other abilities. However, Warshaper can be truly useful.

Look at it closer. 1st level alone makes you immune to crits AND sneak attack (since if you're immune to crits, you're immune to sneak attacks as well), plus you get the ability to shape as many natural weapons as you wish. However, the little caveat is when you ALREADY have a natural weapon of that kind; you can increase the die size by 1 size category (so your Medium claws now deal damage as Large claws, for example) and thus you can just go INA + Warshaper + Enlarge Person (if you can get a way to find it, as IIRC bard doesn't get that spell). However, getting bigger claws isn't your thing. Thus, it's one AWESOME ability and one cool ability.

2nd level is the same: one cool ability and one AWESOME ability. The "cool" is having +4 Strength, and if you're going to remain on the alternate form (or Alter Self) virtually all day, you should get that all day. A +4 Strength isn't that useful unless you're settling for melee forms, but a +4 Constitution helps quite a lot (+2 HP per level, +2 to Fortitude, +2 to Concentration spells, and if you can get one or two abilities that key off Con, you're set).

3rd level isn't so cool, since it means only reach, but it can be great if you make reach-touch attacks.

4th level is a mixed blessing, but fast healing 2 isn't bad when you need to heal yourself out of combat. Heck, even 2 HP recovered in-battle when you have reduced damage to "nonexistant" and yet somehow lose some HP can be a great blessing. You also get the 10 HP per full round with Concentration checks secured since you'll have a huge Con.

5th level, however, can be a cool way to get limited Shapechange at low levels if you know how to use it. Multimorph (which is what you want) allows you to use a single spell to change form into what you desire. Flashmorph, as you mention, is pretty pointless and thus a big meh.

All in all, just the reach touch, +4 to Con, morphic immunities and fast healing 2 are good reasons why to take it (alongside the bonus to Fort). If you need a good measure, 2 levels are enough to get all the good stuff (and once you finish your spellcasting progression, go for the last 3 if you want).

As for Bards and Sublime Chord...well, you really need 7 levels to get the ability, but you can do a mild leap-frog if you want to get the really complex abilities (Listen, Knowledge: Arcana) by means of getting those 6+Int skill points to compensate for the loss via getting levels of Warshaper. Bard 7/Warshaper 2/Bard+1 (or even Virtuoso 1) works fine.

I'd also point you, if you believe it won't hurt you that much, into Master Transmogrifist. You'll realize you'll lose at least 3 caster levels (which means you get stuck with 8th level spells), but you can optimize your transformation skills up to cheese levels if you know your transformations. You need to choose the right favored shapes (namely, something like cryotroll or whatever you need to create the Ikea Tarrasque), but once you do you can do some interesting stuff with the Warshaper abilities mixed with MT. For example, Manifest Senses allows you to get the senses of your favored shapes (specifically blindsight), shapechanger (which grants you a redundant ability, but also the ability to remain in one shape permanently so you can basically mix with Multimorph to remain in one form without casting transformation spells), reflexive change (change into another shape as an immediate action in response to an enemy's move; great if you need to change from "attack mode" or "scouting mode" to "defense mode"), manifest qualities (remember what I said with the troll? Right, you get regeneration; mix with immunity to whatever the troll is weak against and you'll be safe so as long as your DM doesn't get Trollbane), and Infinite Variety (you can mix and match abilities, so all of a sudden your troll has the heads of a hydra, or your hydra gets the regeneration of a troll). Since Polymorph is a 4th level Sorc/Wiz spell, you can get it via Sublime Chord or remaining pure spellcaster. In fact, the most reasonable option is to go full Sorcerer in that way.

In any case: any particular reason it has to be a Hengeyokai?

Crasical
2010-09-03, 05:39 AM
A battle sorcerer has proficiency with light armor and single martial weapon of the players choice, which is actually good enough for abjurant champion. I'm not wholly convinced thats how I want to look yet, but it looks like a strong choice I may return to in the future.

Crasical
2010-09-03, 05:47 AM
In any case: any particular reason it has to be a Hengeyokai?

Yikes, huge wall of text.

The reason to be a hengeyokai is that they count as Shapechangers, so as long as you have 4 BAB you can dip into Warshaper, which is what lets Bards take the class.

The other reason is the 'Irish witch' I mentioned before (And was apprently wrong about, the legend is scottish), I've had a DM who disliked anime and anything oriental in his medieval fantasy and so I'm playing my character as a Cat Sidhe, a witch who has learned special magic to turn her into a cat, rather than an asian supernatural creature.


Edit:.... Wow, that barely makes any sense. Edited for clarity.

true_shinken
2010-09-03, 07:58 AM
Actually, if you are doing melee while using spells... why not Duskblade?
A Duskblade Hengeyokai qualifies for Warshaper at level FOUR.
Also, related to your witch theme and actually doable as a Duskblade: the Wild Soul class (Complete Mage) increases versatility in spell selection. It also just so happens to completly fit in a build stub: Duskblade 13/Warshaper 2/Wild Soul 5 gets Warshaper's big guns and adds a ton of useful spells that a Duskblade does not get otherwise. BAB +16.
If you give up arcane channeling, Duskblade 10/Warshaper 4/Wild Soul 6 also gets bab +16, an extra seelie ally and an extra +10 ft speed.

Person_Man
2010-09-03, 08:28 AM
Warshaper abilities are only active while you use your Wildshape/Alternate Form ability. So you'd have to be in sparrow or rabbit or whatever form for it to be active, which would limit your other combat abilities. And IIRC, the Hengeyokai Alternate Form only lasts for a limited duration (rounds per HD?) which means you'd have to "pre-buff" before every combat.

Crasical
2010-09-03, 08:48 AM
Warshaper abilities are only active while you use your Wildshape/Alternate Form ability. So you'd have to be in sparrow or rabbit or whatever form for it to be active, which would limit your other combat abilities. And IIRC, the Hengeyokai Alternate Form only lasts for a limited duration (rounds per HD?) which means you'd have to "pre-buff" before every combat.

The version I have doesn't say anything like that, although it may imply it by saying it 'Acts like polymorph Other' which I can't find on the SRD and suspect may have been phased out, but research elsewhere (http://www.alchar.org/~aedil/Campaign/WizardSpells/Polymorph_Other.html)has led me to believe was permanant. What Hengeyokai have are limited uses per day equal to character level +1.

Hengeyokai have 3 forms, Human, Hybrid, Animal, and it lists Lycanthropy as one of the possible prereqs for the Prestige class. So either Lycanthropes can only get a buff when in animal form and not hybrid or human, or what I believe to be correct for both hengeyokai and Lycanthrope is that they get no benefit from the PRC in human form but get to enjoy all benefits when in animal or Hybrid.
Since a hengyokai in hybrid is medium sized, can wear human armor and weild weapons, and is essentially a 'human with frills' humanoid, the hengeyokai can assume hybrid form in dungeons and other areas where combat is expected to enjoy the additional reach, natural attacks, and stat boosts.

So, no, I may be interpreting it wrong, but I think as written you neither have to pre-buff nor be in animal form to use the PRC.

true_shinken
2010-09-03, 11:02 AM
Warshaper abilities are only active while you use your Wildshape/Alternate Form ability. So you'd have to be in sparrow or rabbit or whatever form for it to be active, which would limit your other combat abilities. And IIRC, the Hengeyokai Alternate Form only lasts for a limited duration (rounds per HD?) which means you'd have to "pre-buff" before every combat.

Hybrid form, fixed. And it's not limited in time by all means.

Duke of URL
2010-09-03, 12:02 PM
I believe a Hengeyokai can stay in animal or hybrid form as long as (s)he likes, but is limited as to the number of times per day (s)he can change forms.

Crasical
2010-09-03, 10:52 PM
I think I've finally decided on a cat hengeyokai, going the Bard 7/Warshaper 2/Something 1 before moving to Sublime Chord levels.

Now I just need to decide on feats... There's a feat in Savage Species that would allow casting in cat form for shenanigans, but with the hengeyokai wisdom penalty it's not likely I'll qualify. Also, my Hybrid form lacks a natural weapon and the cat forms aren't worth improving... I will need to either find a spell or ability to grant them to get the improved die size from Warshaper.