[Exalted 2e] Dawn Solution

[Kylarra]

Part 1 (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/09/01/ink-monkeys-vol-32-the-dawn-solution-part-i.aspx)
Part 2 (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/09/01/ink-monkeys-vol-33-the-dawn-solution-part-ii.aspx)

Personally I think some of them are rather ridiculous, but I'm eagerly looking forward to a more unique anima ability than a simple +2 to DVs.

[Crasical]

Ridiculous? What, like the charm where you can grab someone and throw them so hard they break orbit and then break a metaphysical barrier and crash land in hell so hard they leave a crater? :smallbiggrin:

[Cubey]

I'm skeptical.

I don't see how these changes manage to fix the biggest of Dawns' problems: redundancy in their favored abilities. There is still not much incentive to focusing on more than one, maybe two combat abilities (+war). That means two-three cast abilities are still useless for any given character.

[Reynard]

Ridiculous? What, like the charm where you can grab someone and throw them so hard they break orbit and then break a metaphysical barrier and crash land in hell so hard they leave a crater? :smallbiggrin:

And are then stuck there for the five days it takes for Time to catch up.

[Terraoblivion]

While i haven't read it in detail, i'm quite skeptical. Like Cubey says it doesn't affect the core design problems of the caste, instead just serving as a somewhat clumsy patch. Also that charm just mentioned there does sound horrifyingly goofy.

[Reynard]

While i haven't read it in detail, i'm quite skeptical. Like Cubey says it doesn't affect the core design problems of the caste, instead just serving as a somewhat clumsy patch. Also that charm just mentioned there does sound horrifyingly goofy.

Eh. It's also Essence 6. Just the right amount of crazy for that level.

I like the new stuff, mostly the redux of Peony blossom, making it something that isn't a stop-gap, the MA extra action charm based on a single roll making (essence) attacks, and the higher-essence-charm-love that Thrown gets.

Also, Blind Impulse Strike. As Gan said, it's "The end of talk radio. And internet arguments."

[Sanguine]

Let me preface this by saying I am not an ink Monkeys fan. Some of there stuff I would never, ever, ever allow into a game I run; others I would only allow in after serious editing. However they do occasionally turn out a gem. I believe the Dawn Solution might be one such Gem. While it is true that it doesn't fix the redundancy of the abilities it does in fact give slightly more utility to having multiple combat abilities and also I think a lot of the Charms are just plain cool. All this of course is just an opinion.

As for the charm that let's you springboard someone of of the Imperial Mountain into Malfeas, I feel the need to say that it is a High-Essence Charm and to actually throw someone into Malfeas you need to have had something like fifty plus raw damage. Not to mention it's ridiculously awesome, and awesomely ridiculous; what better combination is there then that?

[Cubey]

Yes. That one Charm is indeed awesome. So beautiful.

And I like how it explicitly mentions it should be used only in combat, against enemies. Like if they just knew powergamers would use this for transportation.

[Terraoblivion]

It's not the power that i dislike, Reynard. I just prefer my Exalted being a bit less ridiculous than that. On the mythology/DBZ split in what Exalted should look and feel like, i lean heavily towards the former, while i feel that this charm quite heavily leans on the latter.

Being able to throw someone to Malfeas might or might not be more reasonable, depending on how exactly they explain it.

[Reynard]

Yes. That one Charm is indeed awesome. So beautiful.

And I like how it explicitly mentions it should be used only in combat, against enemies. Like if they just knew powergamers would use this for transportation.

And the same for the Charm that turns enemies into bombs. "No, you can't use it to turn your allies into missiles. No, not even if they let you and have a perfect soak."

[The Rose Dragon]

I don't see how these changes manage to fix the biggest of Dawns' problems: redundancy in their favored abilities. There is still not much incentive to focusing on more than one, maybe two combat abilities (+war). That means two-three cast abilities are still useless for any given character.

It makes non-Archery abilities more useful for everyone, mostly. So you can use Melee Charms with Archery, while you can use Thrown Charms with Melee, and War makes it easier to switch between combat modes.

All in all, I'm kinda happy with what they have. And I liked nothing the Ink Monkeys have turned up with before.

[Kyeudo]

Another typical Ink Monkeys production: some good ideas buried in a sea of mud.

[GryffonDurime]

Another typical Ink Monkeys production: some good ideas buried in a sea of mud.

There is a resounding amount of negativity re: the Ink Monkies coming from this board...is it a Playground thing? There does seem to be a difference in Exalted culture. Sadness, indeed; I'm a fan of what they're doing, and all this derision seems...well, I'd like to see, more intimately, the nature of complaints against them. I myself think they've produced some of the best content in the game, and suspect that a great deal of the turmoil is a result of Exalted, for the first time, becoming what one can consider a living gameline. No content is really static anymore, not with the promises of errata we've been offered.

[Crasical]

It's not the power that i dislike, Reynard. I just prefer my Exalted being a bit less ridiculous than that. On the mythology/DBZ split in what Exalted should look and feel like, i lean heavily towards the former, while i feel that this charm quite heavily leans on the latter.

Being able to throw someone to Malfeas might or might not be more reasonable, depending on how exactly they explain it.

So you don't mind players taking the power as long as they stunt it properly, and improper uses will get the slow head shake and "No, you can't do that. That's ridiculous."?

Nice Keine avatar by the way.

[Xefas]

There is a resounding amount of negativity re: the Ink Monkies coming from this board...is it a Playground thing? There does seem to be a difference in Exalted culture. Sadness, indeed; I'm a fan of what they're doing, and all this derision seems...well, I'd like to see, more intimately, the nature of complaints against them. I myself think they've produced some of the best content in the game, and suspect that a great deal of the turmoil is a result of Exalted, for the first time, becoming what one can consider a living gameline. No content is really static anymore, not with the promises of errata we've been offered.

Yeah, I've always liked the Ink Monkeys stuff, myself. When my group played Exalted for a bit, we just considered it canon offhand. I'm sure if we played again, it'd be the same deal.

Really, the only thing I have to complain about with this newest article is that "Dawn King's Strife" reminds me of "Don King", which reminds me of Don King's Simpsons Incarnation (EDIT: Lucius Sweet from the episode "The Homer They Fall"), who had really scary hair, so I associate the hair with the charm.

[Kyeudo]

There is a resounding amount of negativity re: the Ink Monkies coming from this board...is it a Playground thing? There does seem to be a difference in Exalted culture. Sadness, indeed; I'm a fan of what they're doing, and all this derision seems...well, I'd like to see, more intimately, the nature of complaints against them. I myself think they've produced some of the best content in the game, and suspect that a great deal of the turmoil is a result of Exalted, for the first time, becoming what one can consider a living gameline. No content is really static anymore, not with the promises of errata we've been offered.

25% of the time, the Ink Monkeys print Charms that make me go "That was a great idea and a solid addition to the game", 25% of the time they print Charms that make me go "Meh, not that exciting", and 50% of the time make me go "WTH? That Charm is like nails on a chalkboard, only for my eyes and brain."

Part of it is also that they are essentially pumping out their own homebrew and calling it canon. Tell me Horse Skid Trick really adds well to the setting.

[Jerthanis]

Some of the charms are really cool, and great additions to the game, and which I might even use. Some of it I've really got to ask why these changes had to hide behind Charm purchases, like Perfected Battle Array... why couldn't you just errata the way artifact commitment works so that weapon diversification doesn't kill, say, your Battles Caste Sidereal? Five or Six of these charms are fundamental to even allow yourself to function under this new combat paradigm at all before payoff even begins. That's an absolutely overwhelming percentage of a starting character's resources and still a significant factor in a normal game until well over 10 sessions have passed. That's xp just to get access to this fighting style, not yet to reap rewards for fighting this way.

Still, the fundamentals of this are a pretty cool way to enable something new.

The rest... it's like the kind of thing you jokingly talk about but are never really serious about. I made all kinds of "I throw him into the sun" jokes with Crashing Wave Throw. They're all suddenly very much not funny now. Putting aside for a moment the fact that it is an extremely silly action, the joy of creativity is in coming up with unique uses for abilities that perhaps the writers never thought of; clever applications of what you have to defy expectations and come up with something greater out of it. When a power tells you exactly how to use it, and fills in the stunt lines for you, it stops being a cool thing for you. It's the writer's cool thing.

Everything else about the Dawn fix, like the air-comboing, is just a series of complicated, expensive ways to make people Perfect or Die just slightly harder than they used to.

Horse Skids Trick (and A Snowbound Mystery) was the moment Exalted jumped the shark while riding a T-Rex for me. It was the moment I knew nothing would be as good as it once was ever again.

[Drascin]

Some of it I've really got to ask why these changes had to hide behind Charm purchases, like Perfected Battle Array... why couldn't you just errata the way artifact commitment works so that weapon diversification doesn't kill, say, your Battles Caste Sidereal?

This is my main problem with both the Monkeys and the tendency of WW themselves in some books - everything is a Charm purchase. EVERYTHING. This seems to have a double bad effect - one, it gives STs the impression that such things shouldn't be allowable without the Charm in question, and two, it makes characters into one-trick ponies, because you need Charms to do anything at all and they're not cheap, so you can't quite afford to be all broad about it.

And well, my other problem with the Monkeys is that they love Solars so much and barely seem to do anything else, while I'm not exactly a Solar lover :smalltongue:.

[hewhosaysfish]

I have never played Exalted. My knowledge of it it confined purely to the theoretical. But this one throwaway line from the description of Cover Shrouding Movement sums up my understanding of it so perfectly:


Note, however, that possible does not necessarily mean reasonable

:smallbiggrin:

I have to play Exalted some time.

[Jerthanis]

This is my main problem with both the Monkeys and the tendency of WW themselves in some books - everything is a Charm purchase. EVERYTHING. This seems to have a double bad effect - one, it gives STs the impression that such things shouldn't be allowable without the Charm in question, and two, it makes characters into one-trick ponies, because you need Charms to do anything at all and they're not cheap, so you can't quite afford to be all broad about it.

And well, my other problem with the Monkeys is that they love Solars so much and barely seem to do anything else, while I'm not exactly a Solar lover :smalltongue:.

To be fair, other than Dragonbloods and Sidereals, they have gotten to everything at least once, and the charms they write for everyone else are way better than their Solar charms. Infernals have had 2 or 3 articles not including Infernal Monster expansions, Lunars had 2 articles to themselves and a significant chunk of one of the Charm Medleys.

As to the former point. That's extremely true. I remember a Crane style charm whose benefit allowed commenting on the flaws in your opponent's style to qualify as stunt material. When I said, "Uh, it was stunt material before this charm existed." The author of the style basically said that it wasn't, and that the charm allowed unique utility.

Also, that concept forms the basis of my burning, seething hatred for the Dragon Riding Meditation charm. "Sorry guys, only Solars can ride cool stuff now so suck a lemon Sidereals who have a charm for making dragons to ride on, and Dragonbloods who have much stronger thematic reason to do so, or even Infernals wanting to ride on the highest souls of the Yozi."

[Kyeudo]

Having finished reading the presented Charms, I have to say that most of the good ideas (attunement discounts for multiple weapons, drawing weapons as reflexive actions, etc.) are stuff that ALL characters need, not just the Dawn Caste. Sure, the Dawn Caste has the most need, but what about the Full Moon Lunar who likes to tear things apart with a sword in one hand and Claws of the Silver Moon in the other? What about the Chosen of Mars, who have three combat abilies in their Auspicious Abilities?

Their bad Charms are probably the worst I've seen in a while. Most are pointless add-ons that, while cool sounding, don't add meaningfully to combat. "Jeopardy Offense"? How is that meaningfully different from the guy with a Grand Daiklave? The other bad charms give Solars super-powers that are outside their themes. Black Holes? Shadows? Those are Abyssal or Infernal tricks if they are anyones.

[Kylarra]

Yeah, likely I'm just going to implement PBA as a base aspect of artifact weapon attunement now.

[Terraoblivion]

Thanks, Crasical.

And i was referring to how the Ink Monkeys had described the effect of the charm to be possible. I mostly just meant that i wouldn't completely discount it as too silly without reading it first.

[Jerthanis]

Their bad Charms are probably the worst I've seen in a while. Most are pointless add-ons that, while cool sounding, don't add meaningfully to combat. "Jeopardy Offense"? How is that meaningfully different from the guy with a Grand Daiklave? The other bad charms give Solars super-powers that are outside their themes. Black Holes? Shadows? Those are Abyssal or Infernal tricks if they are anyones.

I do agree with you, but I'm not sure that I'd use the word "worst" in reference to these. I'd say the worst are of a level with the worst of other collections of charms. I mean... is the air combo honestly worse than the ride charms a couple articles back? Maybe I just hate those ride charms inordinately.

I think the Solar charm that hits people "like a black hole" was just hyperbole for saying, "He hits them so hard it's like they were hit by a black hole" as an upgrade for "He hits them so hard it's like they were hit by a truck." I dunno, that didn't seem like an offensively non-solar thematic charm because the black hole reference seemed mostly to illustrate that it was serious business, not that it was a punch that literally made a black hole, or manipulated the power of a black hole.


This is my main problem with both the Monkeys and the tendency of WW themselves in some books - everything is a Charm purchase. EVERYTHING.

I know I've already responded to this once, but I was going to add one more thought. I recently compiled all charms that I actually like outside the normal splatbooks and wrote them up for my group. I kept running into effects that I liked but also didn't think anyone would be excited to pay experience for. I didn't want to add their effects to their prerequisites because that would be even more added bookkeeping and players wouldn't know exactly what the charms they were purchasing did while looking in the basic rulebook.

So I came up with a new charm type: Automatic. When you fulfill all trait minimums and have all prerequisite charms, you instantly gain the Automatic charm without paying experience points or training time. This is mostly useful for Permanent charms that alter the way their prerequisites work, like Golden Savant's Largess or Terrible Steel-Rending Talons. This lets people learn about new powers and rules changes like they were reading about new charms, but doesn't put an arbitrary xp barrier between them and the new rule/power.

[Kyeudo]

I do agree with you, but I'm not sure that I'd use the word "worst" in reference to these. I'd say the worst are of a level with the worst of other collections of charms. I mean... is the air combo honestly worse than the ride charms a couple articles back? Maybe I just hate those ride charms inordinately.


I suppose you are correct. Horse Skid Trick does leave most of these Charms in the dust in the competition for "Worst Charm EVAR".



I think the Solar charm that hits people "like a black hole" was just hyperbole for saying, "He hits them so hard it's like they were hit by a black hole" as an upgrade for "He hits them so hard it's like they were hit by a truck." I dunno, that didn't seem like an offensively non-solar thematic charm because the black hole reference seemed mostly to illustrate that it was serious business, not that it was a punch that literally made a black hole, or manipulated the power of a black hole.


It sucks people knocked around by Heaven's Thunder Hammer back in, crushing the victim between the force throwing him outward and the one pulling him back in until it splits air into motes and causes an explosion. It's not a "I hit him like a black hole," it's "I create suction like a black hole." Not a Solar theme.



I know I've already responded to this once, but I was going to add one more thought. I recently compiled all charms that I actually like outside the normal splatbooks and wrote them up for my group. I kept running into effects that I liked but also didn't think anyone would be excited to pay experience for. I didn't want to add their effects to their prerequisites because that would be even more added bookkeeping and players wouldn't know exactly what the charms they were purchasing did while looking in the basic rulebook.

So I came up with a new charm type: Automatic. When you fulfill all trait minimums and have all prerequisite charms, you instantly gain the Automatic charm without paying experience points or training time. This is mostly useful for Permanent charms that alter the way their prerequisites work, like Golden Savant's Largess or Terrible Steel-Rending Talons. This lets people learn about new powers and rules changes like they were reading about new charms, but doesn't put an arbitrary xp barrier between them and the new rule/power.

I think most Charms like that should end up like Master Horseman's Techniques. A whole bunch of somewhat related Charm effects that aren't worth a full Charm on their own all rolled together into one Charm where you buy each effect for only a few XP each.

[Jerthanis]

I think most Charms like that should end up like Master Horseman's Techniques. A whole bunch of somewhat related Charm effects that aren't worth a full Charm on their own all rolled together into one Charm where you buy each effect for only a few XP each.

This might be a good way to do it instead, but... I already did the work and going through and doing a case by case sounds time consuming. Maybe for Edition 2 of the houserules compendium.