The reality of the game

[Kaww]

This thread is started to redirect off topic discussion form this one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166753&page=2

I hope that it will be a peaceful exchange of ideas/opinions...

@ Snake-Aes You said:

Then I call to your attention that a level 5 fighter is already way past humanity. As in, you can chuck a spear through his neck and he will survive, and even keep on fighting.

Beyond humanity means not humanly possible, at least it is how I interpret it. In reality, just as in game you level up. There aren't core classes. As classes you have: soldiers, professors, athletes, doctors, carpenters, garbage men, bums etc.

Now you now have (I assume) more hp than a five year old child. As you hit the age categories you start losing hp and your physical stats go down the drain. As in game it is relatively easy to get first two-three lvls, but then it starts getting tougher and tougher until nearly impossible. You can't just run out on the street and look for something with appropriate CR to kill.

There are much more analogies but let us leave it at that.

Now magic, by it's very definition is impossible. Try summoning a badger ( Note: cockroach and rat - not that difficult... :smallsmile:)

[Tyndmyr]

Realism is a virtue in systems that claim to model reality.

In other systems, it has no particular benefit, it's just a trait.

If you believe D&D models reality, you need to either take less medication or more.

[Esser-Z]

D&D does not model reality. D&D models a form of heroic fantasy.


(I also note it's much more reasonable to treat a chunk of your HP as plot armor and such rather than actual wounds. :smalltongue:)

[Kaww]

I named the thread like that because I wanted to come up with a name fast and "reality analogies with DnD system and DnD analogies with reality" sounded too lame...

@ esrz22 If I understand you correctly - you have same hp with a full plate as with no armor on.

[Telonius]

To the original poster - it depends on what you think HP's measure. Personally I view HPs as more of a "percentage" thing. A basic guardsman dealing 6 points of damage with a sword is going to register as a decapitation or disembowelment on most 1st-level Commoners or Wizards. He's dealt roughly 100% of the target's hit point damage, so that should register as such. But if he's going up against a level 20 Fighter, I'd describe 6hp worth of damage as a minor scratch on his leg. It's dealt an extremely small portion of his total hit points available.

I do agree with the general point, though. I'd say that after about Level 5 or so, characters do get into the "theoretically possible given the outer limits of human achievement" territory. After around level 8, we're definitely in Superhero territory.


(I also note it's much more reasonable to treat a chunk of your HP as plot armor and such rather than actual wounds. :smalltongue:)

This is another good way of putting it. Heroes don't take nasty wounds from Random Guard #4. They take nasty wounds from big scary monsters or BBEG's.

[Milskidasith]

I think a comfortable mix of both is appropriate; while obviously a 30 damage hit will decapitate a level one guy (a six damage wouldn't; he'd be bleeding out, but nowhere near dead), it's still going to be a significant hit on a level 20 guy; the level 20 guy can just ignore it (after all, they can also ignore massive falls). So a 30 damage hit on a level 20 guy, even if he has massive HP, could still probably be a deep gash in his neck that he just shrugs off because, damn, he's tough.

[Fax Celestis]

I do agree with the general point, though. I'd say that after about Level 5 or so, characters do get into the "theoretically possible given the outer limits of human achievement" territory. After around level 8, we're definitely in Superhero territory.

That happens as early as second level when rogues and monks get evasion, paladins can heal with a touch, and barbarians get uncanny dodge. First, if you count rage or wild empathy.

[braxsus]

Its just a HUGE suspension of disbelief..

My example has been Wildlife..

In reality,there is no man alive either a MMA fighter, professional Boxer, or Worlds strongest man or whatever that would EVER last more then 10 seconds in an unarmed confrontation with an angry, aggressive, hungry 550+lb Adult Lion bent on killing them

Now in D&D, what level does the same encounter become a cake walk for an unarmed fighter ? 5, 6?

[Morty]

D&D isn't realistic and it isn't supposed to be. However, I don't like HPs even having accepted that fact. They cross the line between "heroically unrealistic" and "silly", I think. A person getting shot point-blank from twelve crossbows in the face and living isn't heroic, it's ridiculous. Few heroes in fiction are known for taking catapult boulders on their chests, anyway. And you don't have to be a high level hero who's known halfway across the world to achieve that. Yes, you can find ways to describe it as luck and such, but it gets tiresome quick.
As for at which point the characters irrevocably break the barrier between what's humanly possible and what isn't - it's all in the description, I think. Someone will describe their 4th level character as a mighty superhero. Someone else will keep describing their characters as "merely" very good at what they do until 9th level.

[Keld Denar]

Reality is overrated. What you're looking for is called verisimilitude. Consistency within the concept of a make believe "reality".

Don't think "how would George St. Pierre handle this lion", think "how would Drizzt Do'Urden handle this lion". Internal consistency is what you are looking for, not direct correlation between fantasy and the real world (the one with the big flaming ball of fire in the sky).

[true_shinken]

Its just a HUGE suspension of disbelief..

My example has been Wildlife..

In reality,there is no man alive either a MMA fighter, professional Boxer, or Worlds strongest man or whatever that would EVER last more then 10 seconds in an unarmed confrontation with an angry, aggressive, hungry 550+lb Adult Lion bent on killing them

Now in D&D, what level does the same encounter become a cake walk for an unarmed fighter ? 5, 6?

Masaai warriors (http://maizebreak.com/regional/article/15/) disagree (http://www.maasai-association.org/lion.html) with you.

[Telonius]

A single unarmed Fighter, no magical aid? Thought experiment for Level 7. Assuming Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed), Improved Grapple, and 18 Str. By then he'd get +7 BAB, +4 Str, +4 Improved Grapple, +1 Weapon Focus, for +12 to attack and +15 Grapple, with around 57hp (guessing +3 Con and average rolls). He'll be hitting for 1d3+6 damage. He'll need an average of 7 hits or so to finish off the Lion. He'll hit on a 3 or better for 8 damage per, so 90% of the time with his primary attack and 65% on his iterative. So we're looking at maybe four rounds to kill the lion, all by himself.

The lion's most dangerous attacks are going to be his Pounce/Grapple/Rake combination. How well the lion is going to hit will depend on how the Fighter is armored. Assuming unarmored (like most boxers etc), his AC will probably be around 12 (Dex only). The Lion's charge will give it a +4 to hit with his Bite attack; he'll hit that on an 8 or better (65% of the time) for an average of about 6. Attempt to establish a grapple; his 12 vs. the Fighter's 15 on the Grapple check. Still, fairly dangerous. The fighter will lose if he rolls four less than the Lion. If the grapple hits, the lion gets to Rake. Fighter loses Dex to AC, so the lion hits on anything but a 1 for an average of 12 damage per Rake attack. If the grapple failed, the lion still gets his Pounce attack, for two claws at +9. They hit on a 3 or better for 7.5 damage each. So we can reasonably expect the lion to be doing at least 15 damage on the first round, with somewhat less (too lazy to do the math - 10 maybe?) on subsequent rounds. So 5 rounds (or so) to kill the fighter.

I think the Fighter comes out a little bit better here, but it's nothing like a cakewalk. If he wins, he'll be seriously injured.

[Greenish]

A single unarmed Fighter, no magical aid? Thought experiment for Level 7.
<snip>
I think the Fighter comes out a little bit better here, but it's nothing like a cakewalk. If he wins, he'll be seriously injured.Cool. Though something more oriented for unarmed combat (say, barbarian/fist of the forest) might find it quite a bit easier.

[braxsus]

Masaai warriors (http://maizebreak.com/regional/article/15/) disagree (http://www.maasai-association.org/lion.html) with you.


Masaai warriors are not unarmed..

Quote
Tools and requirements

The lion hunting game is about personal assignment, goal and dedication. The game is based on your background, environment and culture. The warriors do not need to attend a gym, and do not need a rifle for lion hunting. All you need is one spear and one shield. Keep in mind that many warriors have been lost to lions.


The only way I know how to killan animal unarmed is by chioking it, pounding in with fists or breaking its neck...

Not gonna happen with a lion..
I officaily offer $50,000 to anyone who is willing to try...I get to retain all rights to the video when we do it..

[MightyTim]

Reality is overrated. What you're looking for is called verisimilitude. Consistency within the concept of a make believe "reality".

Don't think "how would George St. Pierre handle this lion", think "how would Drizzt Do'Urden handle this lion". Internal consistency is what you are looking for, not direct correlation between fantasy and the real world (the one with the big flaming ball of fire in the sky).

This right here. Internal consistency is much more important than true realism, especially when the entire game is based around things which are patently not real to begin with.

I don't like trying to find any real world analogue of what HP represent. I'd much rather enjoy the game for what it is and not try to rationalize everything.

[Tyndmyr]

Crap. I know there's a guy who killed a lion with his bare hands. I can't remember his name though... I will grant that it's quite exceptional.

Of course, it's only in D&D that he would kill the lion with his bear hands.

[Haarkla]

Realism is a virtue in systems that claim to model reality.

In other systems, it has no particular benefit, it's just a trait.

If you believe D&D models reality, you need to either take less medication or more.
Realism is a virtue D&D does not possess enough of.

All systems should attempt to model reality modified by a particular set of conditions. E.g. magic, monsters, superpowers. Obviously, this has to be balanced against playability and simplicity.

[Kaww]

A single unarmed Fighter, no magical aid? Thought experiment for Level 7. Assuming Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed), Improved Grapple, and 18 Str. By then he'd get +7 BAB, +4 Str, +4 Improved Grapple, +1 Weapon Focus, for +12 to attack and +15 Grapple, with around 57hp (guessing +3 Con and average rolls). He'll be hitting for 1d3+6 damage. He'll need an average of 7 hits or so to finish off the Lion. He'll hit on a 3 or better for 8 damage per, so 90% of the time with his primary attack and 65% on his iterative. So we're looking at maybe four rounds to kill the lion, all by himself.


And if he was caught with his pants down? (and this is assuming he was created with 17+ str, non optimized, just like the lion)

Since we are not optimized for barehanded lion wrestling he shouldn't be either. So at lvl 7 he has: +7BAB+4STR=+11 attack and +11 grapple mod. Dmg is nonlethal and is 1d3+4 (he needs 6 hits, has a 20% miss chance with first att and 45% with second). If grapple comes into play he has 45% chance not to get grappled... Now lion laughs at him, or am I wrong? Lion's CR is 3. This is the basic one given in MM1. If they had same HD fighter wouldn't stand a chance either (lion's CR would be 5).

[Milskidasith]

Crap. I know there's a guy who killed a lion with his bare hands. I can't remember his name though... I will grant that it's quite exceptional.

Of course, it's only in D&D that he would kill the lion with his bear hands.

There's a guy who ripped out a leopard's tongue, IIRC. Don't recall any stories about lions.

[Math_Mage]

And if he was caught with his pants down? (and this is assuming he was created with 17+ str, non optimized, just like the lion)

This is an arbitrary condition that does not exist in the original statement.


Since we are not optimized for barehanded lion wrestling he shouldn't be either.

This is an arbitrary condition that does not exist in the original statement.

Anyway, regarding someone who was optimized for barehanded combat (but not specifically barehanded lion wrestling, as if it matters) and could have taken on this challenge in his sleep, check out this Cracked article (http://www.cracked.com/article_16449_7-people-from-around-world-with-real-mutant-superpowers_p2.html).

[Umael]

Masaai warriors are not unarmed.

Highly, highly questionable remark, but in the movie "The Ghost and the Darkness", one of the characters said that he killed a lion with his bare hands.

Just remarking.



The only way I know how to killan animal unarmed is by chioking it, pounding in with fists or breaking its neck...

Assuming you meant a large animal (at least the size of a big dog), I will just let you know that there are other ways to kill an animal with your bare hands (or your feet).

A good kick to the throat can kill most dogs, especially if they are lunging forward (added momentum).



Not gonna happen with a lion..
I officaily offer $50,000 to anyone who is willing to try...I get to retain all rights to the video when we do it..

Heh.

How about making the offer legal, but changing it to "is successful" rather than "is willing to try". I mean, I'm willing to try... might you, I'm not actually trying right now, nor will I for a long time, as I don't happen to know of a lion in the area that I can kill, espeically one that won't get me sent to jail (i.e., raiding the zoo falls under "Bad Idea").

[Spiryt]

Those tales about ripping lions tongues sound like another mighty Samurai tales. I'm not sure how the ack human would be able to control lion long enough to even grab it's tongue without being snapped. Especially tall, lanky guy like most Masai seem to be. Maybe immature lions?

But weirder things had happened, I guess :smalltongue:

http://myspace.roflposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1231026222139.jpg.%5Broflposters.com%5D.myspace.jp g

[Esser-Z]

@ esrz22 If I understand you correctly - you have same hp with a full plate as with no armor on.
Not actual armor. Plot Armor. Not a thing in your possession, nor something the character is aware of. Rather, a meta element. "The story says you don't die yet".

It's the same thing that makes guys with automatic weapons always miss action heroes and so forth.

[Snake-Aes]

Not actual armor. Plot Armor. Not a thing in your possession, nor something the character is aware of. Rather, a meta element. "The story says you don't die yet".

It's the same thing that makes guys with automatic weapons always miss action heroes and so forth.

the HP abstraction is not constant. Healing heals hitpoints the same way all the time. Thus a healing spell, in your model, also heals "plot armor". Kinda not what healing is meant to be, right? O.o
Specifically about hp, either my group handwaves it as "i got better", or we use wound points or hero points (a second hp pool that can be used when doing something heroic)

[Esser-Z]

Well, yeah, healing complicates things. No matter the abstraction, there will end up being flaws. Best not to think about it too hard.

[Spiryt]

the HP abstraction is not constant. Healing heals hitpoints the same way all the time. Thus a healing spell, in your model, also heals "plot armor". Kinda not what healing is meant to be, right? O.o
Specifically about hp, either my group handwaves it as "i got better", or we use wound points or hero points (a second hp pool that can be used when doing something heroic)

It heals "plot armor" by removing exhaustion, lactic acid, stress, sweat, panic, and stuff connected with being wounded, almost wounded, assaulted by 23 crossbowmen, barely getting out alive...

Really, many things can be made nice and flowing with a bit of imagination, without really spoiling nice atmosphere.

Of course, sometimes it's tough, and requires good DM, but no one promised us it will be easy. :smallwink:

[Kaww]

This is an arbitrary condition that does not exist in the original statement.


This doesn't exist either, but let us use the same stats for a unarmed human fighter and lion (since we are human and they exist in game and we are only talking about the mechanic here and there and also advantages of race, human over species, lion). 10,10,10,11,11,11. Human fighter no equip. How does he stand, no matter how much optimization you use?

[Esser-Z]

It heals "plot armor" by removing exhaustion, lactic acid, stress, sweat, panic, and stuff connected with being wounded, almost wounded, assaulted with 23 crossbowmen, barely getting out alive...

Really, many things can be made nice and flowing with a bit of imagination, without really spoiling nice atmosphere.

Of course, sometimes it's tough, and requires good DM, but no one promised us it will be easy. :smallwink:

Hm. Yeah. Many hits are actually very close misses, which thus tire out the character far more than any non-damaging action. And so forth. Basically, HP don't always represent the same thing.

[Telonius]

And if he was caught with his pants down? (and this is assuming he was created with 17+ str, non optimized, just like the lion)

Since we are not optimized for barehanded lion wrestling he shouldn't be either. So at lvl 7 he has: +7BAB+4STR=+11 attack and +11 grapple mod. Dmg is nonlethal and is 1d3+4 (he needs 6 hits, has a 20% miss chance with first att and 45% with second). If grapple comes into play he has 45% chance not to get grappled... Now lion laughs at him, or am I wrong? Lion's CR is 3. This is the basic one given in MM1. If they had same HD fighter wouldn't stand a chance either (lion's CR would be 5).

Well, we were talking about Boxers, MMA fighters, and (specifically) Unarmed Fighters, so I'm assuming Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple would be in play, as would weapon focus and specialization in unarmed strikes. (I'm also assuming Core only). If you're talking about the standard "Hit it with my Greatsword" fighter, that's a totally different ballgame.

Also, even in Core, that isn't a totally optimized (non-casting, unarmed, unarmored) Lion-wrestler build. You'd need a level of Ranger for Favored Enemy (animal), a two-level dip in Monk for bonus feats and Monk damage (the bonus to damage and AC is worth the loss of 1 point of BAB), and Improved Natural Attack. (Throw in a level of Paladin, and I'll call this build "Daniel.")

[Kaww]

Hm. Yeah. Many hits are actually very close misses, which thus tire out the character far more than any non-damaging action. And so forth. Basically, HP don't always represent the same thing.

So, you get too tired of evading and then you die?

[kyoryu]

To the original poster - it depends on what you think HP's measure. Personally I view HPs as more of a "percentage" thing. A basic guardsman dealing 6 points of damage with a sword is going to register as a decapitation or disembowelment on most 1st-level Commoners or Wizards. He's dealt roughly 100% of the target's hit point damage, so that should register as such. But if he's going up against a level 20 Fighter, I'd describe 6hp worth of damage as a minor scratch on his leg. It's dealt an extremely small portion of his total hit points available.


That's been the argument for hp since the first versions of the game, and most people acknowledge that it holds up pretty well for "two guys hacking on each other with swords." It's situations outside of that where it starts to get a bit fuzzy.



If you believe D&D models reality, you need to either take less medication or more.

More. The answer is always more.


Reality is overrated. What you're looking for is called verisimilitude. Consistency within the concept of a make believe "reality".

Don't think "how would George St. Pierre handle this lion", think "how would Drizzt Do'Urden handle this lion". Internal consistency is what you are looking for, not direct correlation between fantasy and the real world (the one with the big flaming ball of fire in the sky).

Not only consistency, but "what is the reality I want to model?" The "reality" of Rambo is different from the "reality" of Nightmare on Elm Street, and both are different from the "reality" of Full Metal Jacket.

It is highly, highly unlikely that anyone really wants to model the real world. In the real world, adventurers would have a life span measured in weeks, if not days.


Realism is a virtue D&D does not possess enough of.

All systems should attempt to model reality modified by a particular set of conditions. E.g. magic, monsters, superpowers. Obviously, this has to be balanced against playability and simplicity.

No, thanks. I went through my simulationist phase. I want the 'reality' of Lord of the Rings - which is far removed from actual reality. If LotR was realistic, the Frodo would have died of starvation or been eaten. For games, I want a "reality" that allows a three-and-a-half foot n00b to take on the most potent avatar of evil in the universe.

[Esser-Z]

So, you get too tired of evading and then you die?

Too tired FROM evading. Running out of energy to block and dodge blows. So, then, you start getting actual wounds (running low on HP!), and then eventually die.

Getting tired might also involve minor wounds and pulled muscles and bruises and such, so that it doesn't go away overnight.:smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

So, you get too tired of evading and then you die?

Yes. The more energy you spend, the slower you get, and eventually you're going to run into the business end of someone's sword because your reflexes are shot.

[Spiryt]

So, you get too tired of evading and then you die?

Or you lose your cold blood/focus, and can't defend any more.

Or you can't actually defend anymore, because you just have no way, you're being overwhelmed.

Or you literally bowed down to your feet in clunky attempt to make sword blow land on your chest, instead of unarmored legs, that you don't really have any way to prevent the next one from landing.

And other stuff, and combination of everything.

Seriously, it's a game of imagination my good Ladies and Gentlemen!:smallsmile:

[Tyndmyr]

Yes. The more energy you spend, the slower you get, and eventually you're going to run into the business end of someone's sword because your reflexes are shot.

So, the higher I pump my dex, and the more I dodge, the faster I'll get tired and die!

The secret is to constantly find ways to deny yourself your dex. Then, you'll never get tired.

[Esser-Z]

Dodging, taking blows to the armor (there's a reason heavy armor is fought with bludgeoning weapons), getting bruised, and so forth. Higher constitution grants you higher endurance, letting you withstand more.

If an attack misses your AC, you were able to react in time well enough to avoid it with little effort, or the foe aimed poorly, or you blocked it with a shield, or you deflected it with your armor (rather than it impacting on your armor), or so on.

[Spiryt]

So, the higher I pump my dex, and the more I dodge, the faster I'll get tired and die!

The secret is to constantly find ways to deny yourself your dex. Then, you'll never get tired.

Yes, the faster you move, the more energy you spend, and your system can't catch up.

Remember, always work on your cardio along with other motor functions. The Ghost and the Darkness

[Kaww]

If you have 20 lvls of fighter and get too tired of anything in less than ten minutes (100 rounds) just jump in the river with your full plate on... To explain certain situations fighters should have superpowers and for some they should less stamina than us. No logic here...

[Tyndmyr]

Oddly enough, swimming in armor really isn't that difficult. I've done it. If it's well fitted at all, it doesn't restrict movement much(if it did, it'd suck in combat). The weight is mostly compensated for by the increased density of water.

I suppose if I was wearing something heavier than chain, it would have sucked more, but it wasn't especially hard.

[Kaww]

If an attack misses your AC, you were able to react in time well enough to avoid it with little effort, or the foe aimed poorly, or you blocked it with a shield, or you deflected it with your armor (rather than it impacting on your armor), or so on.

I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.

[Snake-Aes]

I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.

You are using a different definition of "avoid". A more proper term could be "deflect" or even "soak" (don't bother with DR and deflection ac atm). Armor doesn't remove the impact from our body, just spreads or deflects it. A sword pointed at your chest is much less likely to kill with armor because if the attack angle isn't 'just' right, it'll hit the armor with an angle that makes it escape instead of penetrate.

So armor ac can, yes, include dodging because a movement can put the incoming attack at an angle at which the armor will deflect it.

[Esser-Z]

I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.
No. The Fighter is better at deflecting blows with his armor. The rogue dodges, avoiding attacks entirely. The Fighter, meanwhile, shifts his body so that his armor catches the attack and redirects it harmlessly away. Or, alternatively, the blow just fails to harm him through his heavy armor.

Snake: HIVEMIND!

[kyoryu]

I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.

Ever watch hockey? Weight aside, they're wearing pretty close to a full suit of "armor". Hockey players can be pretty agile.

[Snake-Aes]

Snake: HIVEMIND!

:p I learned that when people were bitching about "breast" plate. "breast" plate is a horrible, horrible idea because it makes lethal attacks to the chest easier than if she didn't wear it.
Incidentally, armor spikes are bad on most locations for the same reason(that and people would cut themselves trying to dress you up).

[Esser-Z]

:p I learned that when people were bitching about "breast" plate. "breast" plate is a horrible, horrible idea because it makes lethal attacks to the chest easier than if she didn't wear it.

Unless it's magic armor. Then all bets are off!

[Kaww]

Encumbrance matters, ever tried running with weights on your ankles? 6 pounds on each leg is rather heavy.

esrz22 I think your logic doesn't hold water. It is easier to shift with an armor that has a higher armor check penalty? Fighter in light armor should shift his position with less success than when he is wearing heavy armor?

Snake-aes This is the way we (my group) interpreters it to, so we use mending etc. after combat on weapons and armor. + I agree about armor spikes.

[Esser-Z]

Heavier armor is capable of redirecting more powerful blows, and has more surface area to do so. Therefore, a man in plate has an easier time using it to catch and/or deflect attacks than a man in lighter armor. The lighter armored man, though, is likely better at moving his body to completely avoid the attack.

Two different kinds of negating attacks.

[Snake-Aes]

Encumbrance matters, ever tried running with weights on your ankles? 6 pounds on each leg is rather heavy.

esrz22 I think your logic doesn't hold water. It is easier to shift with an armor that has a higher armor check penalty? Fighter in light armor should shift his position with less success than when he is wearing heavy armor?

Snake-aes This is the way we (my group) interpreters it to, so we use mending etc. after combat on weapons and armor. + I agree about armor spikes.

It's not that it is easier to shift. it's that the "difference per angle" a shift in position makes to not suffer a blow is much greater if you can rely on a scraping attack not hurting you.
A fair analogy is the increased relative value of a damage reduction when you have a % damage immunity of the same type. An armor bonus would be the % immunity, while the shifting would be the reduction.

[true_shinken]

There's a guy who ripped out a leopard's tongue, IIRC. Don't recall any stories about lions.

My first link was a description of a masaai warrior doing the same with a lion. This might help (http://www.asylum.co.uk/2010/03/10/top-five-bare-hand-kills/) anyway.

[Math_Mage]

This doesn't exist either, but let us use the same stats for a unarmed human fighter and lion (since we are human and they exist in game and we are only talking about the mechanic here and there and also advantages of race, human over species, lion). 10,10,10,11,11,11. Human fighter no equip. How does he stand, no matter how much optimization you use?

Um, I point out that your prior arbitrary conditions had nothing to do with the issue under discussion, and your response is to impose an even more arbitrary condition? 10s and 11s only is not how the real world works. It's a completely irrelevant corner case.

As for the HP/AC discussion, it's not important to impose an internally consistent paradigm of health/defense that is comprehensive over all or even many combat and non-combat situations. All that matters is that the description you give for one particular situation makes sense for that situation. You can justify just about any overarching explanation of how HP or AC works, whether it be toughness, luck, skill, dodging, parrying, or whatever. Why dig deeper than that?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Its just a HUGE suspension of disbelief..

My example has been Wildlife..

In reality,there is no man alive either a MMA fighter, professional Boxer, or Worlds strongest man or whatever that would EVER last more then 10 seconds in an unarmed confrontation with an angry, aggressive, hungry 550+lb Adult Lion bent on killing them

Now in D&D, what level does the same encounter become a cake walk for an unarmed fighter ? 5, 6?

Skimming through this, I've got to say you're wrong here. Recently, there was a farmer in Africa who managed to not only defend himself against a jaguar, but also killed it... by ripping out its freaking tongue.

Not the link to what I described above, but still appropriate. Suck it, nature! (http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/02/12/cougar/index.html)

EDIT: And kind of ninja'd.

[liquid150]

{Scrubbed}

[Mystic Muse]

{Scrubbed}

And I ate an airplane. Pics/documentation by a reliable source or it didn't happen.

[liquid150]

And I ate an airplane. Pics/documentation by a reliable source or it didn't happen.

{Scrubbed}

[Mystic Muse]

{Scrubbed}

I prefer mine plane. Spelling totally intended.

Honestly, I don't want realism in my D&D. I want to fight demons, evil gods, and dragons. Not Bob the next door neighbor who stole my cable.

[Spiryt]

Skimming through this, I've got to say you're wrong here. Recently, there was a farmer in Africa who managed to not only defend himself against a jaguar, but also killed it... by ripping out its freaking tongue.

Not the link to what I described above, but still appropriate. Suck it, nature! (http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/02/12/cougar/index.html)

EDIT: And kind of ninja'd.

There are no jaguars in Africa.

And article you linked is about killing cougar with 4 rifle bullets.

It would need someone with better knowledge, but I freaking doubt that big cats of prey have so fragile tongues that human can rip it out easily in the fight...

[true_shinken]

It would need someone with better knowledge, but I freaking doubt that big cats of prey have so fragile tongues that human can rip it out easily in the fight...
I believe he meant this article (http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Man-rips-leopards-tongue-out-20050622).

[Esser-Z]

Human muscles are capable of surprising strength, especially in the presence of adrenalin. And the tongue is connected by a relatively small area...

[Yahzi]

My explanation of HPs is found in the spell "Harm." From way back in the day (that is 2E to 3E) it removed all but 1d4 of the target's hit points.

From that I deduce that humans have 1d4 hit points. All the rest is magical. In my gameworld fighters really do get spears in their necks, pull them out, and keep going. Until they are out of supernatural hit points: after that, it's just flesh and blood for the last d4.

If you want to represent realistic differences between people, that is what stats are for. A guy with CON 16 is a lot tougher than one with CON 10; a dude with STR 18 is going to curb-stomp two or three ordinary STR 10 guys.

But classes... classes are supernatural. Their benefits - like HP - are magical.

[Frozen_Feet]

Okay, after reading several discussions like this, I've come to a conclusion:

Most people don't give enough credit to all the crazy **** going on in the Real World.

Humans have survived from having iron bars shot through their skulls, aeroplane crashes against mountainsides, falling from terminal velocity and having been drowned for hours. In the past, not only did men face dangerous beasts with little to no equipment, they were expected to in order to count as adults.

The fact that any of us are here is testament to craziness of humanity, and by extent, the real world.

I can't honestly believe people keep bitching about imaginary warriors surviving a few sword blows, when there have been people who've crawled through frozen steppes with their legs cut or climbed sheer cliffs after being shot full of bullets.

Even ordinary life defies common sense to the point that many people find it necessary to explain things away with ghosts, aliens, mass hypnosis or a variety of forum-unfriendly subjects, why is it such a sore spot that a game about heroic warriors contains unlikely survivals from time to time?

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, after reading several discussions like this, I've come to a conclusion:

Most people don't give enough credit to all the crazy **** going on in the Real World.

Humans have survived from having iron bars shot through their skulls, aeroplane crashes against mountainsides, falling from terminal velocity and having been drowned for hours. In the past, not only did men face dangerous beasts with little to no equipment, they were expected to in order to count as adults.

The fact that any of us are here is testament to craziness of humanity, and by extent, the real world.

I can't honestly believe people keep bitching about imaginary warriors surviving a few sword blows, when there have been people who've crawled through frozen steppes with their legs cut or climbed sheer cliffs after being shot full of bullets.

Even ordinary life defies common sense to the point that many people find it necessary to explain things away with ghosts, aliens, mass hypnosis or a variety of forum-unfriendly subjects, why is it such a sore spot that a game about heroic warriors contains unlikely survivals from time to time?

Frozen feet, may I put a link to this post in my sig?

[Frozen_Feet]

Sure, go ahead.

[Thurbane]

IMHO, it's just a matter of different playstyles. I've gamed with both types of gamers - those who expect mundane/non-magical characters to perform pretty much within the constrains of real world physics and abilities; and those who believe that fantasy heroes (even mundanes) can perform physical and mental feats that are simply not possible in the real world.

Neither is right or wrong, just different preferences. Again, IMHO, D&D 3.X (my preferred system) lends itself more readily to the second style of gaming - that mundane characters can transcend real world limits of the physical and mental, simply by virtue of being heroes...

[true_shinken]

Okay, after reading several discussions like this, I've come to a conclusion:
Okay, after reading your post, I came to a conclusion: you, sir, are awesome.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, after reading your post, I came to a conclusion: you, sir, are awesome.

Hence why there is now a link in my sig.:smallbiggrin:

[Awnetu]

D&D is a fairly realistic game.

A fighter can cut something 4 times in 6 seconds.

A barbarian can run 50 feet and make 4 attacks in those same 6 seconds.

HP total does not hamper a character until he hits 0 HP or less.

You can preform acrobatic move capable of allowing you to fall over 2000 feet and emerge completely unscathed.

You can shoot arrows at speeds that cover over a 1000 feet from a composite bow, AND hit a target in 6 seconds.

A warblade can simply will away paralysis.

Anger makes your character fight better and hit more often.

Your intelligence boosts your vitality through 'happy fun time'.

You can balance on a cloud.

You are able to make a angry charging minotaur your fanatically loyal servant. In 6 seconds.

Through drowning a man, you can save his life.

People can carry a car over their heads.

You can be smart enough to make up for being about a dexterous as a rock for the purposes of avoiding attacks.


Man, I'm glad D&D is so realistic.


A person so intelligent that no one is or ever will be as smart as, keeps around a relatively ineffectual meatbag while adventuring. Nevermind that said meatbags abilities can be replicated easily, and with less back talk, by the others spells.

[Jack Zander]

D&D is a fairly realistic game.


Saying that something is fairly realistic and then citing very specific examples of the parts that are not realistic does not help your argument. In 95% of the rules, DnD models reality pretty well.

[Mystic Muse]

Saying that something is fairly realistic and then citing very specific examples of the parts that are not realistic does not help your argument. In 95% of the rules, DnD models reality pretty well.

I think he was being sarcastic. Also, I haven't seen reality in 95% of the rules. That's just me personally though.

[Jack Zander]

I think he was being sarcastic. Also, I haven't seen reality in 95% of the rules. That's just me personally though.

I know he was being sarcastic, that was the whole point of my post... :smallsigh:

The point he was trying to make was that DnD was not realistic by citing specific examples of things that are not realistic, while completely ignoring those parts that are. In order to match the parameter of fairly realistic, I would expect the game system to only need to have over 50% of the rules match reality closely. Posts really lose their effect when you have to explain them...

[Mystic Muse]

I know he was being sarcastic, that was the whole point of my post... :smallsigh:

at least for me, It's easier to tell with his than yours.

[Jack Zander]

at least for me, It's easier to tell with his than yours.

I wasn't using sarcasm. Read my explanation of my post in the edit.

:smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

[Dr.Epic]

So, wait, this thread is just about how D&D is completely different from real life in terms of mechanics? Well, yeah. If D&D had all the subtle rules of RL, then it would be fun. It be like trying manage real life with pencils, dice, and your imagination.

[Thajocoth]

Realism is a virtue D&D does not possess enough of.

All systems should attempt to model reality modified by a particular set of conditions. E.g. magic, monsters, superpowers. Obviously, this has to be balanced against playability and simplicity.

All systems should attempt to model reality? But then what would people like me play? People who play specifically because it's so different from reality?

Heck... I'll look at a Dwarf or Cleric and still go "Too normal... Pass... Ooh, can I play an Illithid?" (Also a fan of blue/orange morality)

I want it to be as unrealistic and fun as possible.

Also, 4e REALLY needs to make Illithids a player-race... They're not evil. Humans and other intelligent races just happen to be an Illithid's natural prey.

[Chrono22]

Actual I think trying to apply levels or classes to reality is ludicrous. At the base of it, D&D is just a simulation of an approximation of reality. The conceits of D&D just don't exist in reality.
As for what is or isn't possible in reality:
There are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

[Kaww]

Okay, after reading several discussions like this, I've come to a conclusion:

Most people don't give enough credit to all the crazy **** going on in the Real World.

Humans have survived from having iron bars shot through their skulls, aeroplane crashes against mountainsides, falling from terminal velocity and having been drowned for hours. In the past, not only did men face dangerous beasts with little to no equipment, they were expected to in order to count as adults.

The fact that any of us are here is testament to craziness of humanity, and by extent, the real world.

I can't honestly believe people keep bitching about imaginary warriors surviving a few sword blows, when there have been people who've crawled through frozen steppes with their legs cut or climbed sheer cliffs after being shot full of bullets.

Even ordinary life defies common sense to the point that many people find it necessary to explain things away with ghosts, aliens, mass hypnosis or a variety of forum-unfriendly subjects, why is it such a sore spot that a game about heroic warriors contains unlikely survivals from time to time?

That was what I meant. If thousands of people actually tried to get in an arena and fight to death I think we would see some really weird things. Some would be very unreal.


IMHO, it's just a matter of different playstyles. I've gamed with both types of gamers - those who expect mundane/non-magical characters to perform pretty much within the constrains of real world physics and abilities; and those who believe that fantasy heroes (even mundanes) can perform physical and mental feats that are simply not possible in the real world.

Neither is right or wrong, just different preferences. Again, IMHO, D&D 3.X (my preferred system) lends itself more readily to the second style of gaming - that mundane characters can transcend real world limits of the physical and mental, simply by virtue of being heroes...

This thread is not about right or wrong, or at least I didn't start it as such. Every group has a right to play as it sees fit. I just wanted to see which parallels exist between mechanics of reality and mechanics of DnD. When physical and possible in DnD becomes impossible out here.


Saying that something is fairly realistic and then citing very specific examples of the parts that are not realistic does not help your argument. In 95% of the rules, DnD models reality pretty well.

You give too much credit to the game. It isn't more than 70% (even this might be too much).


So, wait, this thread is just about how D&D is completely different from real life in terms of mechanics? Well, yeah. If D&D had all the subtle rules of RL, then it would be fun. It be like trying manage real life with pencils, dice, and your imagination.

If by dice you mean chance or statistical probability (which is basically what dice represent) try PrC accountant. :smallbiggrin:

@ Awnetu

A fighter can cut something 4 times in 6 seconds.

If he has one weapon he can do this at lvl 16+, I think that most people agree with me when I say that lvl 9+ is very difficult to achieve in reality. At lvl 10 you still have only two hits in 6 seconds, which is not that difficult to achieve if you have trained your whole life to do something like that. Excluding xbows, but not bows...

[Kaww]

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee480/123456laugh/Realism1.jpg?t=1283591575

Poor ninjas...I mean, just look at them.

You sir are a genius. :thog:

Nice photo too. :elan:

[true_shinken]

If he has one weapon he can do this at lvl 16+, I think that most people agree with me when I say that lvl 9+ is very difficult to achieve in reality. At lvl 10 you still have only two hits in 6 seconds, which is not that difficult to achieve if you have trained your whole life to do something like that. Excluding xbows, but not bows...
Excuse me, are you really saying attacking 4 times in 6 seconds is supposed to be hard?
First of all, you don't spend 6 seconds swinging your sword. It says so specifically in the DMG - you study your opponent, shift your weight, throw a few feints and then you attack.
Second, even IRL trained fighters outperform that easily. Mike Tyson is known for throwing 3 punches in one second. And you are talking about high level characters. There is a known article around that compares 5th level characters to Olympic level athletes.
Two hits in 6 seconds? I can do that extremely easily, without even trying. Heck, my grandfather should be able to do it - and he's 90 years old.
TL;DR - 2 attacks in 6 seconds is trivia to achieve, lelvel 9 or 16 characters are way more skilled than Olympic level athletes anyway