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Cicciograna
2010-09-03, 12:51 PM
...instead of WIS. Would it work? Pro and cons?

MikelaC1
2010-09-03, 12:53 PM
It already exists as a feat, Force of Personality

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-03, 12:53 PM
That's called "Force of Personnality" feat in the Complete Adventurer, no?

Malfunctioned
2010-09-03, 12:53 PM
Force of Personality feat from Complete Adventurer does exactly that.

EDIT: Wow. Double ninja'd :smalltongue:

Cicciograna
2010-09-03, 12:55 PM
No, I meant without any feat, as a house rule. Sorry, I had to be more clear.

Tyger
2010-09-03, 01:01 PM
From a balance perspective, it may skew things slightly, and you'll likely end up with players asking for "This stat instead of this stat to that bonus", so if you are the DM and are willing to adjudicate all of those requests, fire away.

And it will depend - are you saying all characters use CHA instead of WIS, or that it is an option for player characters, i.e. can they choose? If its the later, than your Sorcerers and Bards (core examples only) will dump WIS like its going out of style, and even Paladins will likley take a long look at not putting thier WIS above 10 (as they can easily buy a +4 Periapt by the time spells are an issue). Meanwhile nothing changes for your Clerics and the like.

4e does this to a limited extent by allowing each defense (the 4e rough equivalent of saves) to be keyed off of one of two stats, and it works there.

Telonius
2010-09-03, 01:02 PM
You'd have to re-word Paladin's Divine Grace ability, but otherwise I don't see any reasons it flat-out wouldn't work. It's a reasonable houserule, I think. If nothing else, it would tone down Cleric and Druid power slightly (though give Sorcerers and Bards a minor boost).

DragoonWraith
2010-09-03, 01:05 PM
4e allows people to use Wis or Cha, their choice, for Will (and Str or Con for Fort and Dex or Int for Ref) - personally, I think that's a pretty good rule (the saves also work differently, in that they're static defenses a la AC against which you make attack rolls - I'm rather ambivalent about that change). You can expect people to have better saves, but it reduces MAD, which is definitely a good thing, and for example reduces the degree to which Wis-based casting is better than Cha-based casting simply because Wis does better "other" things, which is probably a good thing.

As for switching Wis to Cha for Will in general... it's not awful; as I see it, Spot/Listen and possibly Sense Motive are more generally useful than the social skills, which means this change gives Cha more purpose for non-Cha-based characters while Wis is still useful. That sounds good - increasing the evenness of the ability scores - but honestly, mathematically, D&D all but requires "dumping" like half of the ability scores. You don't get enough bonus ability points, nor do you want to waste the extra wealth, pumping more abilities than that. So preventing people from safely keeping average values in scores that they shouldn't really need is not a great thing, IMO.

Haarkla
2010-09-03, 01:13 PM
No, I meant without any feat, as a house rule. Sorry, I had to be more clear.
No. It dosen't make any sense. It would mean that supermodels, for example, would have great will saves.


4e allows people to use Wis or Cha, their choice, for Will (and Str or Con for Fort and Dex or Int for Ref) - personally, I think that's a pretty good rule
It's a bloody stupid rule. Stephen Hawking would have a great reflex save! It makes it impossible to create a strong but "glass-jawed" character. Stupid.

Frosty
2010-09-03, 01:16 PM
No. It dosen't make any sense. It would mean that supermodels, for example, would have great will saves.


It's a bloody stupid rule. Stephen Hawking would have a great reflex save! It makes it impossible to create a strong but "glass-jawed" character. Stupid.
Supermodels don't necessarily have forceful personalities. Some of them are downright horrible at conversation. Those have Low charisma.

Remember. Appearance does NOT equal Charisma! They can be the hottest thing since sliced bread but have no personality.

liquid150
2010-09-03, 01:16 PM
No. It dosen't make any sense. It would mean that supermodels, for example, would have great will saves.

Charisma is not meant to be only indicative of a character's physical appearance. It also affects "likeability" and "force of will (not will saves, just will)." You must make opposed charisma checks to get somebody (or something) to do what you want, not opposed wisdom checks. If charisma was only physical in nature, a typical demon could never hope to beat anything in an opposed charisma check.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-03, 01:21 PM
It's a bloody stupid rule. Stephen Hawking would have a great reflex save! It makes it impossible to create a strong but "glass-jawed" character. Stupid.

Except he would have a malus due to his condition, so the rule isn't that stupid: what would be stupid is to neglect other parameters. But that's not the point of the thread.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-03, 01:23 PM
No. It dosen't make any sense. It would mean that supermodels, for example, would have great will saves.


It's a bloody stupid rule. Stephen Hawking would have a great reflex save! It makes it impossible to create a strong but "glass-jawed" character. Stupid.
You know, I don't think it's unreasonable to read this as you calling me stupid. Even if that's not what you meant, you should word yourself better. Just because you disagree with a rule does not make it stupid, and it certainly doesn't make me stupid because I like it.

Cicciograna
2010-09-03, 02:17 PM
Okay, now I'm ready at my desk and can elaborate.

I was reading the description of the Will saving throw, which, according to SRD, says:

These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects.
Okay, so it must be something that has to do with force of personality, personal integrity, ability to overcome external coercions etcetera.

Reading the descriptions of the Abilities, quoting the SRD:

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. [...] If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

If I didn't know anything about D&D I'd say that the bonus to Will ST comes from Cha, not Wis, as the bolded part hints nicely the Will save.

Now, considering mechanical issues, Cha has always been the dump stat, as there are few skills keyed to it and there are few classes who regard it as fundamental. Keying its bonus to Will ST could be a way to increase its importance for all the classes; but while this obvious bonus is clear to my eyes, I'm asking for your advice on balance issues, mechanical loopholes and the like that this change to rules, which would apply to ALL the creatures in a campaig, could cause.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-03, 02:29 PM
As Tyger said, D&D 4th edition does have the rule that either the higher attributes regarding a defense can be used to determine the value.

So, fortitude is calculated either on strength or on constitution, reflex on either intelligence or dexterity, and will on charisma or wisdom.

Only intelligence towards reflex is considered a little bit strange by people who hear about this, but the rest makes sense for them.

Allowing this for D&D 3rd edition is not going to break the game that much.

Yeah, okay, the sorcerer, bard and paladin benefit doubly from high charisma, but aside from the sorcerer, none of these are uber-classes that spew radioactive fire or stop time like the wizard, the cleric and the druid, and the sorceror is behind the wizard-guy.

You should allow that house-rule, and see how it works.
It it absolutely doesn't, reverting back to only allowing to substitude with feats or not at all is still a viable option.

Zaydos
2010-09-03, 02:31 PM
Well you buff charisma based characters, give melee a reason to value Charisma above Wisdom, and might want to rephrase Crusader/Paladin/Hexblade's saving throw boosting abilities (either a change to Wisdom or else just state that it is applied twice to Will saves).

The bigger balance factor is how this affects monsters. Many that have bad or so-so Will saves have better Wis than Cha (animals, giants) while many that have good Will saves already (Intelligent Undead, Outsiders) have equal or better Cha. So while the balance effect on PCs is typically good or close, on monsters you will be leaving some gaping holes in their defenses.

If you use 4e's method everybody just got better saves and any effect that allows a save just became a lot less useful.

tcrudisi
2010-09-03, 02:31 PM
Yes, but as you posted, Wisdom describes a characters will and intuition, both things that would also be very beneficial when "trying to resist mental influence." As such, they both make perfect sense.

I don't see any problem with balance issues, mechanical loopholes, or the like, but I have not played 3.5 in a few years, so my memory is fuzzy at best. I think you would be fine to either make Cha the bonus to Will ST or give the monsters/players the option of Cha or Wis to their Will ST's.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-03, 07:12 PM
...instead of WIS. Would it work? Pro and cons?
Assuming D&D 3.5?

Well, lets look at what the Big 6 existing stats do for a Warrior-1 with no specific feats, items, or class-features. Everything affects at least one skill, so I'll ignore that aspect for now.

Str: Melee to-hit, damage, carrying capacity (3 items)
Dex: Initiative, AC, Reflex Saves, Ranged to-hit (4 items)
Con: Hit Points, Fort saves (2 items)
Int: Skill Points (1 item)
Wis: Will saves (1 item)
Cha: (0 items - there's a reason it's a common dump stat)

If you make Will saves based on Charisma, that's fine, but Wisdom is left alone with nothing. Suggestion: If you do that, move Initiative to Wisdom (Wisdom covers the senses - you pick up on what's happening before everyone else, and so get to react first). That'll put Dex more in line with Strength (each will have three items), and leaves the mental stats on a fairly even keel.

As for how switching Will saves from Wisdom to Charisma will affect existing game balance? It'll weaken Monks, Clerics, and Druids a bit (their Will save goes down, pretty much universally); strengthen Bards, Paladins, and Sorcerers a little (their Will save goes up); and is pretty much a wash for the other Core classes.

Thurbane
2010-09-03, 08:51 PM
Problem is that unfortunately in 3.X Wisdom and Charisma step all over each other's toes for "force of will/force of persona".

And Charisma has always been a bit ambiguous - is it looks, personality, sense of self, persuasiveness, all of the above?

Snake-Aes
2010-09-03, 09:40 PM
Problem is that unfortunately in 3.X Wisdom and Charisma step all over each other's toes for "force of will/force of persona".

And Charisma has always been a bit ambiguous - is it looks, personality, sense of self, persuasiveness, all of the above?

As many of the above as you want to, with obligatory persuasiveness.

Devils_Advocate
2010-09-04, 05:35 PM
Consider a character who blindly follows his whims against his own better judgment, doing whatever he feels like at the moment without regard for the long-term consequences nor for what anyone else thinks. Does not such a character have both strong force of personality and low willpower (and Chaotic alignment)?


Okay, so it must be something that has to do with force of personality, personal integrity, ability to overcome external coercions etcetera.
On the contrary. When you look at how Will saves work, you can see that they allow characters to defend against internal effects. Sure, the effects defended against are planted there by naughtybad brain-messing-with mojo, but they're personal compulsions, not social interaction, and thus fought with willpower. There's no reason that knowing that they're being imposed on you from without should help you to resist the caster's will any more than feelings of defiance should help you to dodge attacks (thereby resisting the will of those trying to hurt you).

Now, if you wanted to say that the level check opposing Intimidate checks should be based on Charisma, that'd be fine.


Cha has always been the dump stat, as there are few skills keyed to it and there are few classes who regard it as fundamental.
There are fewer skills based on Wis, but some of them (Spot, Listen, and to a degree Sense Motive) are more important to most characters than Cha-based skills. The thing is, while it's useful to have someone in the party with Charisma, more than one negotiator is less likely to help than multiple good Spot and Listen modifiers.

And... that's fine. I don't see anything bad about a character having a viable dump stat. Indeed, it's a lack of viable dump stats that's more often seen as problematic, since you can't put high scores in everything (unless you rolled really well).

I have my own thoughts about changing the ability scores to make more sense, but if I started typing about that in any great detail I'd get into a big redesign of the whole system. (For example, I see no particularly good reason to have BAB, base saves, and hit points as their own weird things separate from ability scores.) Suffice to say that, in a redesign, Wisdom could easily be axed completely, with Spot and Listen based on Dex (since awareness of your environment ties into being well-coordinated, plus they're scout-type skills); Heal, Profession, and Survival based on Int (like Craft and Search); and Sense Motive based on Cha (since it's a social skill) along with Will saves.

Outside of a redesign, however, you've got to contend with things like the fact that cranking various creatures' Will saves up or down based on your whim -- even if it's the methodical application of a single whim to everything -- will randomly screw with game balance.


Perhaps surprisingly, self-assurance doesn't automatically equate to stubbornness. For some people, doubtlessly believing in something doesn't prevent you from sitting them down, explaining your opposing view, and having them walk away doubtlessly believing the complete opposite of what they thought a few minutes ago. Their "conviction" simply stems from being as uncritical of their own beliefs as they are of what other tell them; they fail to think, but they're willing to listen.

(As I recall, Animal Farm described debates by two great speakers by saying that the audience tended to agree with whoever was speaking at the time.)

On the other hand, if you are good at "spotting" when something doesn't quite makes sense, then you're not going to blindly accept everything that you hear, and you're also not going to blindly go along with anything that pops into your head. But this won't make you good at convincing anyone else of anything, since common sense can't really be taught.

While Charisma and Wisdom may sometimes be described in similar or even identical terms, that's just a terminology problem. What the two ability scores do is quite different. On the one hand, you've got an internally held and externally projected sense of rightness, and on the other hand, you've got the ability to grok that which you sense physically and that which you think intellectually.

Intelligence, meanwhile, is the ability to sort information out. It helps you to produce correct guesses with greater frequency, though possibly also incorrect guesses. (Trying to sort out the guesses themselves using the same faulty heuristics that you're trying to compensate for is going to be of dubious value. This sort of thing is why Wisdom is important; brainpower is not rationality.)