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Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 06:43 PM
In the two weeks or so since I got my laptop back, I have typed up something in the neighborhood of 45 character sheets. I have 21 still to go. It's driving me nuts.

So my very simple question to all you DMs out there is: How the heck do you manage to get all this done without going nuts and murderering your own face off?

Mystic Muse
2010-09-03, 06:45 PM
I....don't?

I've never had to make 66 character sheets.

Why do you need so many character sheets again?

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 06:47 PM
I....don't?

I've never had to make 66 character sheets.

Why do you need so many character sheets again?

Peasants, members of the local theocracy, city guardsmen, local thugs, evil cultists, occasionally multiple versions to compensate for variant equipment, zombified or ghoulified versions thereof. :smallsigh:

Jolly
2010-09-03, 06:51 PM
I've GM'ed a lot of games over the years, and I've never made that many characters. Character sheets for commoners? Seriously? Edit: how many times is it going to come up how many ranks in Jump that commoner has? And on the incredibly rare occasions it might come up, wouldn't it be better/easier to just fiat a reasonable number?

Generally speaking I only bother to stat out the biggest of BBEG's, the rest I use base stats or guesstimate. I actually prefer to seat of the pants bad guy stats, as it keeps my players from reading the MM's and metagaming encounters. And really, most NPC's aren't going to get into combat and that's the most important time to have full stats so...

Boci
2010-09-03, 06:51 PM
Peasants, members of the local theocracy, city guardsmen, local thugs, evil cultists, occasionally multiple versions to compensate for variant equipment, zombified or ghoulified versions thereof. :smallsigh:

DMG has some states for some NPCs, and do you really need states for all of those people on the list?

RebelRogue
2010-09-03, 06:52 PM
Do you really need the stats of all those characters?

Vitruviansquid
2010-09-03, 06:52 PM
I play a system where it's easy to refluff or create new creatures. I also don't plan that far ahead and try to subtly railroad the players into fighting the encounters I have prepared. >_>

liquid150
2010-09-03, 06:54 PM
In the two weeks or so since I got my laptop back, I have typed up something in the neighborhood of 45 character sheets. I have 21 still to go. It's driving me nuts.

So my very simple question to all you DMs out there is: How the heck do you manage to get all this done without going nuts and murderering your own face off?

Because I don't do that. Nobody does that.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 06:57 PM
DMG has some states for some NPCs, and do you really need states for all of those people on the list?

In squished, barely-legible graphs, yes they do. For adventurer-types, not anyone you'd actually find in civilized company.

And yes, I need all of them. Why? Because once upon a time on of my PCs thought it'd be funny to just randomly tackle a passing pedestrian. This turned into a police chase. I had none of the nessicary sheets set up and it halted the game until I could generate some -- ones that didn't work very well.

So since then I've always come up with character sheets for EVERYTHING, because experience has taught me I'll need them.


Edit: how many times is it going to come up how many ranks in Jump that commoner has? And on the incredibly rare occasions it might come up, wouldn't it be better/easier to just fiat a reasonable number?

Well, I don't go THAT far. Nameless mooks don't get skills or feats, because they're too much effort.

Saph
2010-09-03, 06:57 PM
The only NPCs who get full character sheets are the ones important enough for it to matter. A good rule of thumb is that an NPC only needs a character sheet if they're going to be participating in combat. In practice this means that the ones who get character sheets are:

a) BBEGs
b) Bosses and recurring villains
c) Long-term NPC allies

Everyone else just gets a small statblock with the important information, or a single line of description, or sometimes not even that.

So Jill, the Wyvern Knight of Daein who's going to be the PCs' escort for the length of a full session and who'll be fighting alongside them in several battles, gets a character sheet. So does Soren, the PCs' administrative officer who runs their castle for them and organises things when they're away from the base. The monsters that the PCs are going to fight get a statblock with basic information such as HP, AC, attacks, saves, stats, and special abilities. The mayor of the local town, however, has only a single line of description ("Greil, Warblade 10, LG") because it's unlikely that I'll ever need to know more than that, and the notables of other towns have nothing beyond a name, because odds are the PCs are never going to meet them.

For my current sandbox game I've got only 10-15 character sheets, and it's been running for 9 sessions so far.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 07:00 PM
So I'm the only person who habitually gets players who are hell-bent on bull rushing the campaign off it's rails via utterly incomprehensible acts?


A good rule of thumb is that an NPC only needs a character sheet if they're going to be participating in combat.

For me this means everyone, ever, qualifies. My players are psychotic. :smallannoyed:

Flickerdart
2010-09-03, 07:01 PM
NPC classes are lovely for this. You can throw a basic fighter together on the fly, then clone a few times and throw at the PCs in waves. For feats, give them Weapon Focus, Improved Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Initiative...nothing complicated, in other words.

Siosilvar
2010-09-03, 07:03 PM
Peasants, members of the local theocracy, city guardsmen, local thugs, evil cultists, occasionally multiple versions to compensate for variant equipment, zombified or ghoulified versions thereof. :smallsigh:

I count... 1 statblock for peasants, 3 statblocks each (maybe a few more at high levels) for guardsmen/thugs/cultists/clergy which vary only in hit points, attack bonuses, and potentially low-level slots available. Leaders can have different statblocks or actual sheets. Variant equipment is... not all that important, just describe them as different and use different damage types. Zombies have an MM entry for a reason, as do ghouls and most other unintelligent undead.

In short, you really don't need to use a whole character sheet for all the possible variations of something.

Here's a few statblocks (and other stuff) with all you'll need during the game:
Peasant:
S11 D11 C11 I10 W10 C10
HP: 6, AC 11 (+1 armor), Saves +0
Attack -4 (1d6/x2)

City guard level 1:
S13 D11 C12 I8 W10 C9
HP: 8, AC 15 (+5 armor/shield)
F/R/W 3/0/0
Attack +2 (1d8+1/x2)

City guard level 3:
S13 D11 C12 I8 W10 C9
HP: 18, AC 16 (+6 armor/shield)
F/R/W 4/1/1
Attack +6 (1d8+1/x2)
One feat

City guard level 5:
S14 D11 C12 I8 W10 C9
HP: 28, AC 20 (+10 armor/shield)
F/R/W 5/1/1
Attack +8 (1d8+3/x2)
One feat

Elf: +1 AC, +1 ranged attack, -1 HP per level
Dwarf: +1 armor/shield AC, +1 HP per level
Halfling: -2 damage, +2 AC, +2 ranged attack
Gnome: +1 HP per level, -1 damage, +1 AC
Half-orc: +1 damage, +1 melee attack

In case it's important, skill checks are equal to level + appropriate ability modifier, under the assumption that they trained for it. Subtract three-quarters of the armor/shield bonus for ACP.

Saph
2010-09-03, 07:03 PM
So I'm the only person who habitually gets players who are hell-bent on bull rushing the campaign off it's rails via utterly incomprehensible acts?

Not even close. :smalltongue: But you don't need to stat up every last character in the gameworld to deal with it. Just improvise instead.

liquid150
2010-09-03, 07:04 PM
Make one character sheet for every type of person (not every person). Use it for everyone. Problem solved.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-03, 07:04 PM
In the two weeks or so since I got my laptop back, I have typed up something in the neighborhood of 45 character sheets. I have 21 still to go. It's driving me nuts.
Yeah, that would drive me nuts, too.

I stat out a handful of characters for an entire campaign, such as the BBEG, his second-in-command, and maybe the most powerful good guy around, and that's it. Anything else, I'll summarize in a few words, and make up the rest on the spot when I need it. That is to say, if I need it.

The Second Rule Of DM'ing: don't spend your time writing out details that the players will likely never find out or care about. The precise skill ranks of Court Noble #12 are likely to be important exactly never.

The funny thing is that it's hard to impossible for most players to tell the difference between a DM who is crazy prepared, and one who is an excellent improviser. So instead of spending time preparing, spend time teaching yourself improv.

Mystic Muse
2010-09-03, 07:06 PM
So I'm the only person who habitually gets players who are hell-bent on bull rushing the campaign off it's rails via utterly incomprehensible acts?



For me this means everyone, ever, qualifies. My players are psychotic. :smallannoyed:

One of my players actually said that he wants something specific he's supposed to do. Only one of my players fall into that category.

Quietus
2010-09-03, 07:07 PM
So I'm the only person who habitually gets players who are hell-bent on bull rushing the campaign off it's rails via utterly incomprehensible acts?

Nah, we all get that sometimes. You're the only one who bothers doing full character sheets for everything they kill along the way, though. For instance, a guard encounter in a large town for me consists of :

3 guards, one level 3, two level 2. Full BAB class, d10 HD, basic feats- weapon focus, power attack for the sergeant. THat's it. And that stays in my head for approximately the five to ten minutes it takes to deal with that scene. They have physical stats : 15/13/14 respectively, for a typical guard, and basic sap or longsword/shield, studded leather equipment. I don't need to know their mental stats, if someone throws a will save at them the level twos get a straight d20 roll (basic warrior/fighter chassis doesn't have good will saves), the sergeant gets +2. If I've established any of them as being particularly tough, or an old, grizzled veteran, they get an additional +2 to that because "they've been around the block". All this happens in my head in the space of roughly thirty seconds, because I don't need to know more than their HP, AC, and to-hit. Spellcasters are more difficult, of course, but then I just pick a couple basic and interesting spells they'd be likely to have prepared for whatever they're doing.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 07:07 PM
So the general gist I'm getting from this thread is that I'm just paranoid. I've been taught by experience that anything I don't prepare for WILL be brought down on my head, and thus overcompensate by trying to act like Bat-DM. :smallannoyed:


Zombies have an MM entry for a reason, as do ghouls and most other unintelligent undead.

Just a side remark - ghouls are not unintelligent undead. They're actually smarter than your average peasant.

On the other point made there, part of why I go into this much depth with my mooks is that I do NOT like treating DnD as a videogame. So when I have "Commoner with Pitchfork" walk by and later he gets zombified and suddenly he's holding a club, there's something severely wrong here. Hence, everyone I make needs to have a version of what they, specifically, would turn out like if they were zombified.

Boci
2010-09-03, 07:10 PM
So the general gist I'm getting from this thread is that I'm just paranoid. I've been taught by experience that anything I don't prepare for WILL be brought down on my head, and thus overcompensate by trying to act like Bat-DM. :smallannoyed:

Also, in case your players do tackle a commoner, you can always improvise the relevant modifiers.

Quietus
2010-09-03, 07:12 PM
Pretty much. But what it comes down to is this : Do you think Batman put that Bat Shark Repellent in his utility belt at the start of the day? Or is it more likely the writers simply decided it was there when he encountered sharks?

Batman isn't REALLY crazy prepared. He's Schrodinger. He makes up the solutions he needs when the problems arise. The trick is to make doing that seem seamless, without totally shutting down your players with ridiculous NPCs or "No, you can't do that".

::Edit:: Quick quiz : What's a reasonable attack roll/grapple mod for a random commoner? You should be able to answer that in the space it took to read this sentence. For me at least, the answer is usually 0-2. Roll your d20, and only worry about the exact number if it's close enough to matter.

Saph
2010-09-03, 07:13 PM
For me this means everyone, ever, qualifies. My players are psychotic. :smallannoyed:

Let's rephrase that, then: NPCs only need a character sheet if they're likely to participate in combat.

You can't plan for everything, so don't try. If you suddenly need the combat details of Random Noble #12, just make up a ballpark figure. He's better than the low-level guards but not as good as a 5th-level adventurer - say an attack bonus of +6 or so, and 25ish hit points. There, done.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-03, 07:15 PM
the notables of other towns have nothing beyond a name, because odds are the PCs are never going to meet them.

Ah :)

In my last campaign, my DM notes included a list of random names. Whenever the players asked after some arbitrary NPC such as the local blacksmith or the innkeeper's neighbor, I took a name from this list. Works great!



And yes, I need all of them. Why? Because once upon a time on of my PCs thought it'd be funny to just randomly tackle a passing pedestrian. This turned into a police chase.
Then what you need is enough familiarity with the system to know what the average expected values are. A peasant in D&D is going to have an AC of 10 (no armor, no dex bonus). A policeman in Whitewolf is going to roll four dice for running checks (2 dex + 2 athletics). An archmage ten levels over the party level has an AC of "you miss" and a save DC of 20 on whatever retaliation he casts. And so forth. This is part of what makes DM'ing fun.


So I'm the only person who habitually gets players who are hell-bent on bull rushing the campaign off it's rails via utterly incomprehensible acts?
Nooooo, that has neeeeever happened to me. At all. Honestly.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 07:16 PM
::Edit:: Quick quiz : What's a reasonable attack roll/grapple mod for a random commoner? You should be able to answer that in the space it took to read this sentence. For me at least, the answer is usually 0-2. Roll your d20, and only worry about the exact number if it's close enough to matter.

Zero. Commoners have 11 STR, and no BAB. Ergo, no Grapple Mod or Attack Bonus.

Another problem with the whole "just improvise" thing, is that literally every time my campaign has been knocked off it's rails, its crashed and burned by the end of the next session. I'm THAT BAD at improv.


In my last campaign, my DM notes included a list of random names. Whenever the players asked after some arbitrary NPC such as the local blacksmith or the innkeeper's neighbor, I took a name from this list. Works great!

I have one of those, actually. Based on culture, roll a d20, and pick from the appropriate gender.


Then what you need is enough familiarity with the system to know what the average expected values are. A peasant in D&D is going to have an AC of 10 (no armor, no dex bonus). A policeman in Whitewolf is going to roll four dice for running checks (2 dex + 2 athletics). An archmage ten levels over the party level has an AC of "you miss" and a save DC of 20 on whatever retaliation he casts. And so forth. This is part of what makes DM'ing fun.

That's what I did when it came up in the first place. It functioned poorly. And no, it wasn't fun. :smallannoyed:


Nooooo, that has neeeeever happened to me. At all. Honestly.

Fumbled your Bluff Check.

AslanCross
2010-09-03, 07:16 PM
Thankfully, my players have never vented any hidden psychopathic tendencies on passing commoners in my games. To be honest, the random NPCs that the PCs pass will probably go down in one hit anyway, as most of them should be Lv 1 commoners---4 HP, 10 AC, and will never manage to hit the PCs at all or make any saves the PCs' attacks might call for.

Guards that the PCs may end up fighting will of course be statted out, but that's easy enough to put down.

Also, just to throw the PCs a curveball? If they spend their days acting out Grand Theft Carriage in your town, have hobgoblin raiders suddenly start attacking and massacring everyone. That will get their attention. :smallamused: That way, you're still able to use those monsters you've already put on paper and the PCs still get to fight them. Obviously, if the PCs are busy distracting the local militia, they won't be able to fight off marauders.

Zaydos
2010-09-03, 07:16 PM
So the general gist I'm getting from this thread is that I'm just paranoid. I've been taught by experience that anything I don't prepare for WILL be brought down on my head, and thus overcompensate by trying to act like Bat-DM. :smallannoyed:

Mostly. A DM needs a general idea/plan, but he doesn't need stats for everything. When I had far too much time on my hands and was doing IRL games 2/week I'd maybe have a list of stats for 13~15 different monsters and that was for high level play and advanced monsters from the PHB. NPCs? Even then I just threw things together except for boss fights.

liquid150
2010-09-03, 07:16 PM
Also, in case your players do tackle a commoner, you can always improvise the relevant modifiers.

The best route is to make the commoner just happen to be Pun-Pun in disguise. Then he throws them across town, laughing.

RebelRogue
2010-09-03, 07:19 PM
Just relax and wing it. It's what we all do. Being prepared is good and all, but prepare for the important stuff: The plot, how important NPCs are related to the plot, encounters you know the PCs will face (or likely face), etc.

kyoryu
2010-09-03, 07:23 PM
So the general gist I'm getting from this thread is that I'm just paranoid. I've been taught by experience that anything I don't prepare for WILL be brought down on my head, and thus overcompensate by trying to act like Bat-DM. :smallannoyed:

Instead of prepping everything, work on your off-the-cuff skills.

Let's say you have a level 5 bashy guy prepped. This can be reused in so many ways that it's ridiculous.

If you want an orc, and orcs in your game are tough but kinda slow and dumb, increase hp and damage, drop AC and attack bonus. Boom. Instant orc.

Need a level 6 guy? Increase all stats slightly. Need a ranged guy? Drop damage slightly, maybe drop hp, convert melee attack to ranged.

Have ideas for what bad, average, and good skill ranges might be. If the NPC needs a skill, give him the appropriate skill level based on what you think his ability would be (bad/average/good). Then, make a note of it so you can refer to it later. If "good" at your level is a +5 skill bonus, and they need to know what the guard sergeant's bluff skill is, you might decide that the sergeant is pretty good at detecting bluffs, having been around the block, and so gets a +5. That's all you need.

When in doubt, think of the possibilities (bluff is probably high, may be medium, and unlikely to be low), roll a dice, and let that guide (6 on a d6 means high, 1 means low, getting a 2 or 3 is probably medium, etc.). It doesn't have to be a hard chart designed in advance, you're just letting the die roll influence what you come up with off the cuff.

You don't need full character sheets - NPCs aren't PCs, and they don't need to follow PC character creation/building rules.


That's what I did when it came up in the first place. It functioned poorly. And no, it wasn't fun.

In that case, come up with a few template critters for appropriate level ranges, rather than completely winging it. As I said above, if you've got a level 5 bashy guy, it's easy to slightly reflavor or to bump up/down a level. If you've got a bashy guy template, a sneaky guy template, a wizard template, a healer template, you can use those as a basis for just about any random encounter you need. Just tweak/reflavor as necessary, and keep the game rolling.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-03, 07:24 PM
That's what I did when it came up in the first place. It functioned poorly. And no, it wasn't fun. :smallannoyed:
Hm.

Then I suggest you train yourself to become better at this; that would be more fun for you, and less time consuming, than writing 50-100 character sheets.

Here's another trick for you: the Schrodinger Castle. Suppose you have this spooky haunted evil castle planned (or whatever other location) but you don't know where the PCs are going? The solution is simple: you keep the castle off the map until the PCs have decided where to go, and then you place the castle wherever they happen to be going. Ta dah!

jguy
2010-09-03, 07:27 PM
I remember I had to make 8 unique characters for constant patrols. My players are quite good at character optimization so I couldn't go with NPC character classes and very basic gear, I went with elite array, PC classes with NPC wealth for the level. Wasn't easy but it was fun. The fights will last longer than 2 rounds now. Maybe even 4!

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-03, 07:28 PM
It's important to recognize who does or does not need a character sheet.

Wizards the party is going to fight: Sheet
Commoners: No Sheet
Nobility: If you're bored
Monsters: No sheet, they have statblocks for that.
Warriors: If you're bored


Generally if I come to the game with more than one piece of paper the group becomes worried.

Quietus
2010-09-03, 07:29 PM
Zero. Commoners have 11 STR, and no BAB. Ergo, no Grapple Mod or Attack Bonus.

Another problem with the whole "just improvise" thing, is that literally every time my campaign has been knocked off it's rails, its crashed and burned by the end of the next session. I'm THAT BAD at improv.


Improv is a big part of what DMs do. It's kinda sad when you're not very good at it - I'm not a fast thinker myself, and can kinda get the stunned "Duh... what now?" look myself when players throw me for a loop. But by picking a few choice pieces of information, you can get the few numbers you do need. For example : They attack a random person. Around what level are they? What type of guy are they (fighty, sneaky, talky, casty)? If they're fighty, they have an attack bonus slightly above their level. If they're sneaky, they have sneaky skills at around level+5 (3 from ranks, 2 from stats). If they're talky, they have a bluff of around 5 above their level (as sneaky), or up to 10 if they're level 5+ (synergies etc). If they're casty, well, pick your favorite spells and go.



I have one of those, actually. Based on culture, roll a d20, and pick from the appropriate gender.


Consider taking the d20 out of the process. Then it goes from "He rolled a die, this guy doesn't matter", to "He looked up the name! Quick, take a note". Unless you want that dynamic, of course...

Gensh
2010-09-03, 07:30 PM
Stats are only there for situations that have significant consequences that hinge on the success or failure of a given role; otherwise, just roleplay what's happening and use your judgment. I usually don't even ad-hoc things using system knowledge; I just do whatever is dramatically appropriate. Only if I know the character will be alive for the vast majority of the campaign do I ever give them a full sheet. And this is considering that my players did kill important NPCs every once in a while just to see what would happen.

arrowhen
2010-09-03, 07:32 PM
No matter how much prep you do, the players *will* do something unexpected. Instead of driving yourself crazy trying to plan everything, plan - and prepare - to improvise from the very start.

kyoryu
2010-09-03, 07:39 PM
Here's an example of how I handle random arbitrary stuff like that.

Let's say a PC decides to verbally berate someone in a bar. I have no idea who this random bar patron is.

I roll a d20 for how tough they are. 16 - somewhat tough, probably somewhere around the level of the PCs, assuming they're in a heroic tier.

Then, another d20 for how ticked off the guy is. 2 - he's actually amused.

I now know the guy is capable, but finds this amusing. I play him up as a bored duelist, actually amused by the challenge and willing to have a friendly bout with the PC - whom the duelist believes is beneath his notice.

If I had rolled a 10 for tough and a 15 for ticked off? Off-duty guard who takes offense to the PCs getting in his face - maybe calling in his on-duty buddies to help teach 'em a lesson.

Gan The Grey
2010-09-03, 07:41 PM
I know the feeling sir. While I might be somewhat decent at improv, I slowly learned that I enjoyed a well-established world far more than one I developed on the fly, because it took my railroading nature out of the equation and placed more of the plot in the hands of the players. If my NPCs are already statted out ahead of time, I'm much less likely to develop an on-the-spot NPC that plays to my at-that-moment wants and desires.

The solution? I started playing E6. Now, instead of having to stat out NPC from all walks of life all the way up to level 20, I only have to plan up to level 6. My stat blocks look like this:

Experts
Crafter Base Stats – Str 10; Dex 10; Con 12; Int 13; Wis 10; Cha 8.
Performer Base Stats – Str 10; Dex 10; Con 12; Int 8; Wis 10; Cha 13.

Bad Journeyman, Apprentice – Level 1 Expert; CR ½; Medium humanoid; HD1d6+1; hp 5; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +0; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +1 Ref 0 Will +2.
Skills and Feats: Main Skill +5, 6 more skills +4(5 skills for Performer), Endurance.

Journeyman – Level 1 Expert; CR ½; Medium humanoid; HD 1d6+1; hp 5; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +0; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +1 Ref 0 Will +2.
Skills and Feats: Main skill +8, 6 more skills +4(5 skills for Performer), Skill Focus in relevant main skill.

Skilled Journeyman – Level 2 Expert; CR 1; Medium humanoid; HD 2d6+2; hp 9; Init 0;
Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +1; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +1 Ref
0 Will +3.
Skills and Feats: Main skill + 13, 6 more skills +5(5 skills for Performer), Skill Focus in relevant main skill. Masterwork tools, one apprentice.

Master – Level 3 Expert; CR 2; Medium humanoid; HD 3d6+3; hp 14; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +2; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +2 Ref +1 Will +3.
Skills and Feats: Main skill + 16, 6 more skills +6(5 skills for Performer), Skill Focus in relevant main skill, Improved Skill Focus as well. Masterwork tools, two apprentices.

Commoners
Base Stats – Str 11; Dex 11; Con 11; Int 10; Wis 10; Cha 10.

Base Commoner – Level 1 Commoner; CR ½; Medium humanoid; HD 1d4; hp 3; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +0; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV +0 all.
Skills and Feats: Assume untrained in everything, Endurance.

Trained Commoner – Same as above.
Skills and Feats: Main skill + 4, 2 more skills +2, Endurance.

Successful Commoner – Level 2 Commoner; CR 1; Medium humanoid; HD 2d4; hp 5; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +1; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV +0 all.
Skills and Feats: Main skill +7, 3 more skills +2, Skill Focus in relevant main skill.

Rare Commoner – Level 3 Commoner; CR 2; Medium humanoid; HD 3d4; hp 8; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +1, Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV +1 all.
Skills and Feats: Main skill +9, 3 more skills +2, Skill Focus in relevant main skill, Endurance.


I have stat blocks for the Home Guard, the Elite Guard, the Navy, and so forth and so on. When something special happens, like someone turns into a zombie, I just use my knowledge of the zombie template to adjust on the fly.

To above poster: That's a pretty good idea. I might incorporate something like that into my games.

Tequila Sunrise
2010-09-03, 08:27 PM
Another problem with the whole "just improvise" thing, is that literally every time my campaign has been knocked off it's rails, its crashed and burned by the end of the next session. I'm THAT BAD at improv.
I'm amazed that your players didn't wise up after the first time you brought the game to a screeching halt to stat up NPCs. Don't they get bored just sitting there waiting for you to prep? (If you say that they entertain themselves while you slave away at NPCs, I'm guessing that they have zero regard for the time and energy you put into the game.)

You didn't ask for advice, but I'm feeling know-it-ally, so I'm giving you some. Personally, in your position, I'd do one of two things: 1) Cancel the session so you can go home and properly prep for the ensuing insanity, or 2) Cancel the session and tell my players "Let me know when you figure out kind of adventure you want. You clearly don't want the one I've prepped, and I'm tired of dikking around because of your poor communication skills."

'Cause it sounds like your players are trying to tell you something with their antics -- that they want something different. Maybe they don't even want to be playing D&D.

Remmirath
2010-09-03, 08:38 PM
I figure almost no NPCs actually need a full sheet. They get HP, AC, saves, initiative bonus, attack bonus and damage at a few different levels of power attack (if they have power attack, obviously). Spellcasters get all the spells they will be using with any meta-magic they'll be using them with written down. Everyone gets any immunities, DR, et cetera that might come into play.

My templates look like this (for the most detailed one I use)...
Name, gender species, age, height, brief description as the PCs see this NPC, alignment
Class (deity if important) Level (+LA if any)
STR number (with item) ((with item+any other boost)) INT same WIS same DEX same CON same CHA same
HP: number DR number/number or type immunities if any regeneration/fast healing if any other relevant special abilities if any
AC: total (component piece)(as many component pieces as there are)
Fortitude +(total number) Reflex +(total number) Will +(total number) Initiative +(number)
Attacks (description of weapon, bonus of weapon, anything pertaining to weapon such as keen, speed, vorpal, vampiric, intelligent, what-have-you) [+(total attack potential), damage +(damage at total attack potential)] +(usual power attack used)/(however many attacks) XdX+(damage at usual power attack) +XdX extra damage of type critical X-20xX
[Feats: list of all feats I consider relevant]
[Lootable Items: any items this person would have on their corpse if killed, and descriptions thereof]
[Skills: any skills they might need to use]

Spells: either a list of the spells they have and what damage/healing capability they have with them, saves et cetera, or a description of any custom spells they might have including what protections they usually have running

Personality: despite calling it personality, actually more of general notes on the character, how they should be played, what motivates them, all that

XP: how much XP they are worth (I hate the CR system and just hand out pre-assigned XP)

That was taken from the villain of an arc. Most get feats, ability scores and skills cut at the least.

One example for 'monster encountered' (which includes intelligent hostiles as well), taken from a campaign a few years ago. The monster itself had glaring flaws, but the thing here is the template ...

SRRA: These beasts stand 10' at the shoulder and are covered in thick, shaggy white fur. They have small, glittering black eyes and huge horns and claws. They look nasty.
HP 2380 AC 73 Attacks +71/+66/+61/+56 2d6+53 19-20x3 Fort +30 Ref +21 Will +21
XP 7700* init +4

*I know I adjusted this XP total... I usually end up doing that. I ascribe more to the 'give what XP feels right' school of thinking than any other.


It doesn't take me long to do up however many of those, I've found, whether the level is 1st or 61st. Then I just stick the same block in wherever the same monster is encountered, maybe change it up slightly for more powerful versions of the same monster for some variety. If I happen to actually need more than what's on there, I wing it. I usually don't need anything else.

If your monsters are going to have stock Monster Manual stats anyhow, of course, there's not really much point in writing them out seperately. Mine never do (too high level for that to be feasible, plus I prefer making my own monsters to using stock ones), so I don't.

I only do really detailed sheets for recurring NPCs, or those who might need more skills. In a system I don't know as well as I do 3rd edition D&D, I'll do more elaborate sheets because I'm less sure of what will actually be needed in a fight.
For commoners and things I never even give them stats. I assume that, if the PCs are to attack them, they'll kill them. If they're not really a commoner but just posing as one, well then, they get stats.

I'm also always ready to improvise like crazy, because you never know what the PCs will actually do. :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't necessarily recommend doing what I do, but it works for me. My players do not like to stay on the beaten path as far as plot goes. They won't go out of their way to screw things over, certainly, but I almost never manage to account for everything that they're going to do in my campaign plan. Luckily, I've gotten better at improvising over the years. I was pretty terrible at it when I started DMing.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 08:40 PM
I'm amazed that your players didn't wise up after the first time you brought the game to a screeching halt to stat up NPCs. Don't they get bored just sitting there waiting for you to prep? (If you say that they entertain themselves while you slave away at NPCs, I'm guessing that they have zero regard for the time and energy you put into the game.)

I generally engage in idle chit-chat with them while I work.


You didn't ask for advice, but I'm feeling know-it-ally, so I'm giving you some. Personally, in your position, I'd do one of two things: 1) Cancel the session so you can go home and properly prep for the ensuing insanity, or 2) Cancel the session and tell my players "Let me know when you figure out kind of adventure you want. You clearly don't want the one I've prepped, and I'm tired of dikking around because of your poor communication skills."

'Cause it sounds like your players are trying to tell you something with their antics -- that they want something different. Maybe they don't even want to be playing D&D.

I generally do get the impression they don't like what I give them in my campaigns. Which makes me wonder why they keep asking me to DM. :smallannoyed:

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-03, 08:44 PM
If you're bad at improv, create Set Pieces, like whatsisname suggested.

Build a scary castle, an underwater dome city, and a bandit attack. Then, whichever way they go, drop one in front of them.

Mumble "YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP DUNGEON"

Edit: Mumbling in all caps is an important skill to learn.

Quietus
2010-09-03, 08:53 PM
If you're bad at improv, create Set Pieces, like whatsisname suggested.

Build a scary castle, an underwater dome city, and a bandit attack. Then, whichever way they go, drop one in front of them.

Mumble "YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP DUNGEON"

Edit: Mumbling in all caps is an important skill to learn.

I thought cap-mumbling was a feat?

valadil
2010-09-03, 08:57 PM
As a GM I use lazy evaluation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation). It's a computer science technique for computing values at the last possible second. The idea is that if you precompute values early, they may change and you'll have to do the work again. Or the results may not be needed and you'll have wasted a lot of work.

In your case of drawing up that many character sheets you're potentially wasting a ton of work. I say you draw up NPC stats only when they might potentially matter.

Even then, you can get away with half assing them. Write out their stats and a list of skills they'll have maxed out. No need to allocate each and every point. That gives you enough info to work with if the players start testing skills against that NPC.

You can also probably forgo most NPCs' combat stats too. Peasants with pitchforks won't hurt the PCs. If the players really want to murder farmers, have the farmers go down without much of a fight. They're more likely to run than attack.


I generally do get the impression they don't like what I give them in my campaigns.

If instead of writing 60 character sheets you can spend your time writing an interesting plot or two, you'll probably have happy players.

Alternatively have you considered another system? I'm assuming you're in 3.5. 4th ed uses streamlined rules for NPCs so you don't have as much work to do when you do stat them. Other systems are even easier. For instance if I wanted to stat a farmer in Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm) it would look something like this:

Pig farmer 4, angry redneck 2, fiddle player 2, merchant 1, carpenter 1.

That took less than a minute and it tells you everything that NPC is able to do.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 09:07 PM
If instead of writing 60 character sheets you can spend your time writing an interesting plot or two, you'll probably have happy players.

I plan my games out from session to session. Thus, my plots are all written well before I start working on the sheets.

Thing is, the sheets I'm making are not something I'm gonna need to do every time. They're extremely generic. "Elf Peasant" applies equally in both Smelly Hovel Town and Middle of Nowheresville.

So really the logic (of the insane troll variety or otherwise) is that doing these 60-odd sheets NOW means that I've already made about 25% of the sheets I'll need EVER. (That might not seem like much, but keep in mind that I've only currently got represented one of the three dominant races in my setting. Getting another 50% would only require moving a few stats around, and the remaining 25% is the high-level, won't-show-up-unless-the-plot-calls-for-it-type mooks.)

arrowhen
2010-09-03, 09:08 PM
On the other point made there, part of why I go into this much depth with my mooks is that I do NOT like treating DnD as a videogame.

The trick to mooks with depth isn't to detail all of your mooks ahead of time, it's to take notes on your own improvised details so you can remember to reincorporate them later.


So when I have "Commoner with Pitchfork" walk by and later he gets zombified and suddenly he's holding a club, there's something severely wrong here. Hence, everyone I make needs to have a version of what they, specifically, would turn out like if they were zombified.

No you don't. If they're NPCs built with the standard array -- i.e., damn near everyone, all you need to know in order to zombify them are their racial adjustments to Strength and Dexterity and the damage for whatever weapon they have -- assuming they held onto their weapon after zombification. Everything else comes straight out of the template. Zombies are easy.

Ghouls are even easier; all you need to know is how many hit dice they had, to determine whether they turn into a ghoul or a ghast.

arrowhen
2010-09-03, 09:20 PM
If you really need to stat up every NPC, at least spare yourself the insanity of doing them all by hand: http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_npc.php

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 09:20 PM
Ghouls are even easier; all you need to know is how many hit dice they had, to determine whether they turn into a ghoul or a ghast.

I use the Gravetouched Ghoul template from Libris Mortis.

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-03, 09:23 PM
If players comment on the fact that the Pitchfork Farmer is now using a club, point out that the pitchfork wasn't welded to his hand; he probably dropped it and picked up something blunter. Stabbing requires more coordination than zombies have.

valadil
2010-09-03, 09:26 PM
I
So really the logic (of the insane troll variety or otherwise) is that doing these 60-odd sheets NOW means that I've already made about 25% of the sheets I'll need EVER. (That might not seem like much, but keep in mind that I've only currently got represented one of the three dominant races in my setting. Getting another 50% would only require moving a few stats around, and the remaining 25% is the high-level, won't-show-up-unless-the-plot-calls-for-it-type mooks.)

Question. Why do all this work while you're also running the game? If these are just generics to be recycled later why not write them out when you have free time?

To go back to your original question of how do you do it, I think one of the biggest thing you learn as you GM is what to prepare. When I first started I loved maps. I still think they're fun to make. But an utter waste of time.

My players don't really care where they're going. If a plot sends them to a town 100 miles north, they can take the mountain path or the river one. It doesn't matter to them if that choice comes from a map or from thin air. The choice is just as arbitrary to them.

So I'd spend hours making these maps and the players wouldn't look at them for more than a minute. I just wasn't making a lot of game with all the time I spent sketching. So I stopped doing them and never looked back. If I'm going to draw up a map these days it'll be when I'm NOT GMing a game.

As you run games you'll figure out what details matter. For my game, maps weren't one of them. I don't even map dungeons anymore. I just write a list of 5-10 hazards and a couple encounters. I improvise the dungeon path as we go and plop down whatever hazard strikes my mood at the time. It saves me prep time and doesn't deteriorate the game in any discernible way.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 09:30 PM
Question. Why do all this work while you're also running the game? If these are just generics to be recycled later why not write them out when you have free time?

At this point, to be honest, it's just because I'm 80% finished anyway and I might as well get it over and done with.


I don't even map dungeons anymore. I just write a list of 5-10 hazards and a couple encounters. I improvise the dungeon path as we go and plop down whatever hazard strikes my mood at the time. It saves me prep time and doesn't deteriorate the game in any discernible way.

Do you mind if I steal this methodology? I was kind of dreading having to map out an iron mine later.

valadil
2010-09-03, 09:32 PM
Do you mind if I steal this methodology? I was kind of dreading having to map out an iron mine later.

Be my guest. If I wanted to hoard secrets I wouldn't be posting them for free on forums :-P That and I'm always flattered when other GMs like my ideas enough to use them.

Gorgon_Heap
2010-09-03, 09:42 PM
valadil, I like your style.

Personally, as far as NPCs go, recurring characters get a single line entry written down somewhere in my NPC list (City Sheriff - LN H/Male Urban Rgr 8).
Nothing else even rates that much attention.

What do I really need to do? They are attacked by a thug in the city or an experienced orc warrior while they are sleeping ... what's the difference? Nuthin'. I just randomly decide Warrior 3: For the human Thug that means 3+2 attack, 10+3 AC, 4x3+6 hp. Done. The orc ... would get an additional point of Str bonus for his attack. All done in my head as the combat is beginning.

Otherwise, I check those useful charts in DMG for pre-written NPCs or those marvelous books like Heroes of Battle or, even more useful, Cityscape, for lists of premade NPCs.


I don't know about y'all, but I have a job, I have classes, I have a family ... I have one free night to run a game for my friends and I'm not going to use up the rest of my freedom in the week pondering the details of fake people that will never appear again.

Just sayin'.

Khatoblepas
2010-09-03, 09:46 PM
When I DM, I use basic mook templates for creatures that really don't matter, and only stat important NPCs. The granularity of this was as such:

Mooks/Commoners: One statblock for goblins, kobolds and commoners.

STR 8 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 10 POW 10 SIZ 3 or 10
HP: 7-10 (flees after one hit or dies)
Relevant Weapon 40%
Dodge 40%
Spot/Listen 40%
So each task has a less than average chance of succeeding. Damage was as per weapon, everything went smoothly.

Elite Mooks were customised to each race, but still only had one template. Hobgoblins/Lizardfolk/Orcs were the same guys with different weapons - since the player wasn't going to make their plans based on the really similar stats of these guys. It only matters to a player what their racial bonus is.

Named NPCs I actually bothered with, statting each out according to their importance to the plot. (The BBEG got THREE statblocks, the Dragon got an entire sheet to himself (http://pastebin.com/M1JizKSm)) So in all I only really statted out 10-15 distinct entities, not including the recruitable NPCs, whom my player really liked me to stat out x3.

Of course we were playing an old school module, but I suppose you could transpose this into D&D.

Pitchfork Commoner becomes:
HP 4, Atk +1 1d6+1 piercing.

Every ghoul becomes just a ghoul, and all their stats are uniform.

When you get to IMPORTANT NPCs, spend your time on them. If you must stat out stuff that your players might fight, spend it on something you'll find fun statting. There is a reason why videogames don't have unique stats for every guy in town - there's simply too much work for too little gain. Nobles have XHP, XGP, and call for the guards if attacked.

King Powerful is a fully fleshed out NPC who gains the Gravetouched Ghoul template and hounds the PCs. His elite guard share one statblock. 3.5 doesn't make it easy to fudge leveled characters, but if you cheat a little and present a challenge to the players, you can do much more with your time. Conservation of Detail and all that. If a player wants to RECRUIT a random guy (like my player recruiting a troll that was living under a bridge) THEN you stat him up, not before. Before, he is just a guy.

Keeping up this balance means you have a few memorable characters, instead of a host of unmemorable ones.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 09:47 PM
I don't know about y'all, but I have a job, I have classes, I have a family ... I have one free night to run a game for my friends and I'm not going to use up the rest of my freedom in the week pondering the details of fake people that will never appear again.

Just sayin'.

In my defense, pretty much everyone I'm making a sheet for WILL appear again. Generic character types are handy like that.

On the other hand, this alone could explain my current bout of depression.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-03, 09:48 PM
In the two weeks or so since I got my laptop back, I have typed up something in the neighborhood of 45 character sheets. I have 21 still to go. It's driving me nuts.

So my very simple question to all you DMs out there is: How the heck do you manage to get all this done without going nuts and murderering your own face off?

Never made that much at one go. I do have a nice pile of character sheets around, but that's because I tend to reuse material heavily. After all, nobody is going to notice that random guard #37 happens to have the same build as random guard #14 from three campaigns ago.

So, I build up the special types. People that have distinct tricks, etc. Even some of these builds get reused, as perhaps nobody ran into them in the last campaign. No material need go to waste.

Now, for your first campaign, this is probably a bit tougher. I reccomend using the occasional commercial module to pad out your material whenever you feel a bit burned out on creating stuff.

Also, I kinda like world building. The players are amazed when I come up with things like maps(accurate to 5ft squares) of entire cities, but hey...I didn't draw it out because I HAD to. Just 'cause it struck me as interesting to see how a city would develop over time.

Drakevarg
2010-09-03, 09:51 PM
Well, as proof that I have learned almost nothing from this thread, since I posted it my list of character sheets that still need writing has shrunk from 21 to 10. I think that's enough of that for tonight. :smalltongue:


Never made that much at one go. I do have a nice pile of character sheets around, but that's because I tend to reuse material heavily. After all, nobody is going to notice that random guard #37 happens to have the same build as random guard #14 from three campaigns ago.

This would be EXACTLY why I'm doing this. I'm just doing it all at the same time so I don't need to do it later.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-03, 09:57 PM
Well, as proof that I have learned almost nothing from this thread, since I posted it my list of character sheets that still need writing has shrunk from 21 to 10. I think that's enough of that for tonight. :smalltongue:



This would be EXACTLY why I'm doing this. I'm just doing it all at the same time so I don't need to do it later.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Improvising DOES work well, if you're good at it. But if you're not, better to prepare. People who don't prepare and who are poor at improvisation end up scrambling around a lot at the last minute. Good for you for seeking to avoid that. Sure, practice at improvising when it comes up(and yes, I have players like that...it will still arise at times) will make you better, and hey, you can re-use all the stats anyway.

Hell, I have some NPCs fully statted out to the last skill point. It doesn't come up often, certainly, but if you use that statblock for a random cleric or three in every campaign? It'll eventually be useful.

kyoryu
2010-09-03, 10:03 PM
As a GM I use lazy evaluation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation). It's a computer science technique for computing values at the last possible second. The idea is that if you precompute values early, they may change and you'll have to do the work again. Or the results may not be needed and you'll have wasted a lot of work.


Yes, yes, yes. That is exactly the technique I use. I even considered mentioning it in those terms, but didn't want to spook people :)

Hawriel
2010-09-03, 10:26 PM
I use note books and 3/5 note cards, or the larger ones.

If it's a published adventure I write notes in a note book in order of the adventure. Then write down stats for any important NPC in that section. Kind of like how I set up note books for collage. read, write, remember.

For mooks or genaric NPCs I use note cards. 1st level rogue number #1. 5th level fighter bowmen #2. Orc spiermen, Orc Shamman, 6HD orc cleric.

If its a race type I use often I make a note card set for it. Like orcs, kobolds, or NPCs with templats. If its joe the smith I just make somthing up on the spot. Unless its a town that needs to be written up.

Im thinking of scrapping that and useing another method. Still using note cards im going to make generic classed NPCs. Then have another note card with race stats. If I need 4 fighting type NPCs I just pick card of the level I want, place 4 minies on the table. IF they are gnolls, orcs or kobolds I grap the card with that races mods on it. Then apply them as needed.

Any important NPC gets eather their own note card, two pages in a note book or a character sheet.

Using note cards are alot easyer that a whole character sheet. That and you can get a box to file them in.

edit.
However it's the stuff that I totaly pull out of my ass on the spot that my player group has rememberd and enjoyed the most. no notes no cards just making up numbers on the fly that are right for the CR.

TheDarkOne
2010-09-03, 11:06 PM
I have a couple of alternate suggestions. First, try planning only one session in advance in detail. Definitely have big ideas for the over arching plot, but don't write them down in detail. This makes it easier to let the players actions modify you're plans week to week. It also prevent your plot from being completely wrecked if you're players do something totally unexpected.

Second, if you're players are really bad as you describe, you might just ask them to play a long with you a little bit. Don't be confrontational about it, just point out that it's a co-operative experience, and if they tried to bite on your plot hooks more often, or took completely random actions less often you all might enjoy the game more. To be clear, I'm not saying you tell your players what they have to do, but as a player there's always some amount of accommodation with the DM so she can run the game she planned, at least in part. (so, harass the random peasants a bit if you want, but don't take actions that are going to take up the whole session with your antics) Unless of course there's a good reason for the PCs to ignore your plot hooks, like they're a band of heroes and you've planned a nice massacre of an orphanage for that session.

arrowhen
2010-09-03, 11:41 PM
As you run games you'll figure out what details matter. For my game, maps weren't one of them. I don't even map dungeons anymore. I just write a list of 5-10 hazards and a couple encounters. I improvise the dungeon path as we go and plop down whatever hazard strikes my mood at the time. It saves me prep time and doesn't deteriorate the game in any discernible way.

Yeah, I've used that method a lot. A dungeon is really just a flowchart for an adventure anyway. The encounters are what really matter; the map itself is just the lines connecting the nodes.

Ozreth
2010-09-03, 11:48 PM
Geez man, I feel bad for you. Nobody really showed you how to play d&d huh? haha.

Its all about improvisation.

Why do you need a full character sheet for a police chase? Have characters make endurance etc checks and have a DC for how fast the villain or whatever is running...

Everybodies player derial the game all the time, thats when you just use reasonable improvisation. Your players shouldnt expect you to stat out all of your villains, thats madness.

So as somebody already said...no, nobody does this heh.

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-04, 07:30 AM
Short answer: I don't.

The only things that get a character sheet are PCs. Everything else gets a stat block; that's all it needs. I am a preparation DM, so I run my adventures like modules and I generally cut-and-paste the stats of things I've used before into to current adventure document (possibly with some modification), and keep a library of stuff (as I don't like running things right out of the MMs) digitally.

And I'm good enough if the PCs want to start slaughtering random people, I can estimate any required stats anyway. But if the PCs do want to be realy stupid and start running around killing commoners, I've got enough of a high-level library of stuff to deal with them. Not for the commoners (though actually, I do have a whole village I stated out once, for the sheer fun of it), but for the NPCs who will go and ruthlessly slaughter the PCs, after which I will ruthlessly slaughter the players. I don't tolerate pratting about for the craps and giggles in my games (and my players are dead aware of this, and they don't tolerate it either (with one exception who the rest of us keep a lid on.)). People with a chaotic stupid mentality are generally not welcome in my games. Yes, I do mean players, not characters...

Tyndmyr
2010-09-04, 09:04 AM
Yeah, I've used that method a lot. A dungeon is really just a flowchart for an adventure anyway. The encounters are what really matter; the map itself is just the lines connecting the nodes.

That works good for most dungeons...the exception are trap dungeons. I don't mean the silly little hp-tax traps. Those are merely to keep players properly cautious. I mean the more elaborate ones, where what happens in one part affects what happens in another.

Those dungeons require planning. They are also generally exceptional among dungeons, though.

FelixG
2010-09-04, 10:04 AM
On average i make about 3 NPCs per system. (not including special characters)

That is if i cant find them premade in my books as it is.

For the most part your players will never notice that the random NPCs they are encountering and dealing with are all the same.

Just give them small bonuses here and there for that particular npcs, decide this guy is going to have +2 dex or -2 cha and you have a working system.

Your just making far too much work for yourself 0.o

Shademan
2010-09-04, 10:49 AM
In the two weeks or so since I got my laptop back, I have typed up something in the neighborhood of 45 character sheets. I have 21 still to go. It's driving me nuts.

So my very simple question to all you DMs out there is: How the heck do you manage to get all this done without going nuts and murderering your own face off?

oh silly you. NPC's are not worthy of stats unless theyre monsters or the BBEG.
just wing it! works fiiiineee.
specially when the players dont get why that peasant survived for so long and astart speculating about cross classes, or when they go "wizards cant do that" "exactly"
"...oh..."

valadil
2010-09-04, 02:24 PM
That works good for most dungeons...the exception are trap dungeons. I don't mean the silly little hp-tax traps. Those are merely to keep players properly cautious. I mean the more elaborate ones, where what happens in one part affects what happens in another.

Those dungeons require planning. They are also generally exceptional among dungeons, though.

I don't think I've ever seen a dungeon like that, that couldn't be summarized as a list or flowchart. Have an example?

Drakevarg
2010-09-04, 02:58 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a dungeon like that, that couldn't be summarized as a list or flowchart. Have an example?

I think it's less for "dungeon with traps" and more for "Needlessly Sadistic Rube Goldberg Machine of Pain." The kind where the exact proportions of everything in the dungeon must be mapped out to know the exact specifications of how they kill everyone involved.


just wing it! works fiiiineee.

It's somewhat evident you didn't read the whole thread. Otherwise you'd probably have noticed me describing at length why "just winging it" does NOT work fine in my experience. :smallannoyed:

Kaww
2010-09-04, 03:18 PM
I have a notebook with generic characters, I put special chars there too. The notebook and the chars in it are used again and again, I add several chars when I start a new campaign. But prior to most sessions I roll the dice for one random monster and I spend 10 minutes adjusting the new stats. This way one of my groups once had a standard troll hunter with CHA 2 and Con~25. When they asked me what do they see the answer was somewhere along the lines of "The ugliest and toughest Troll in the world".

Shademan
2010-09-04, 03:32 PM
I think it's less for "dungeon with traps" and more for "Needlessly Sadistic Rube Goldberg Machine of Pain." The kind where the exact proportions of everything in the dungeon must be mapped out to know the exact specifications of how they kill everyone involved.



It's somewhat evident you didn't read the whole thread. Otherwise you'd probably have noticed me describing at length why "just winging it" does NOT work fine in my experience. :smallannoyed:

offcourse i didnt read it. i just winged it

Ormur
2010-09-04, 08:18 PM
You said that improvising when they decide to grapple random commoner 32#. Why should it, the adventurer grapples him and wins easily because he has 10 strenght and no BAB, now that was boring, lets not do it again.

Dralnu
2010-09-04, 08:35 PM
If you're having troubles improvising and acknowledge that it's a useful ability, why not try practicing it? That's the only way that you'll get better.

My first campaigns were entirely improvised. Low level made things easier too. Towns, NPCs, and missions were fleshed out spontaneously and helped along by character interaction. The more that I ran, the better I was at running them. You've succeeded when everyone's having fun and don't even realize that you're making stuff up.

Schylerwalker
2010-09-05, 12:57 AM
In the two weeks or so since I got my laptop back, I have typed up something in the neighborhood of 45 character sheets. I have 21 still to go. It's driving me nuts.

So my very simple question to all you DMs out there is: How the heck do you manage to get all this done without going nuts and murderering your own face off?

Well, Psycho, to answer your question differently than most of the people here...I have a lot of spare time, and I actually LIKE spending hours just typing up random statblocks for merchants, peasants, pedlars, things like that. I make up villains and stat out characters I'd like to do when the mood strikes me.

If you'd like, I could email you my rather large collection of premade NPC's and villains. Here's a couple of completely random examples of how I do it:

Name: Farmer (CR 1/2)
Race: Human, Class: Commoner 3
HP: 10/10, AC: 11 (+1 Dex)
Strength: 12 (+1), Dexterity: 12 (+1), Constitution: 13 (+1)
Intelligence: 8 (-1), Wisdom: 14 (+2), Charisma: 11 (+0)
BAB/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Farm implement +2 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Farm implement +2 melee (1d6+1)
Fortitude: +5, Reflex: +2, Will: +3
Skills: Climb +3, Handle Animal +4, Jump +3, Profession (farmer) +6, Ride +3, Swim +3
Feats: Animal Affinity, Endurance, Great Fortitude
Languages: Common
Equipment: Farming implements, peasant's outfit, sack (May have food and water), knife, 10 feet of hempen rope, 1 sp, 1d3 cp
Class Features: N/A
Hook: "Please m'lord, it's almost harvesting season."

Name: Highwayman (CR 2)
Race: Human, Class: Fighter 2
HP: 18/18, AC: (+2 Dex, +4 armor)
Strength: 16 (+3), Dexterity: 15 (+2), Constitution: 14 (+2)
Intelligence: 11 (+0), Wisdom: 9 (-1), Charisma: 13 (+1)
BAB/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Masterwork longsword +6 melee (1d8+3/19-20x2)
Full Attack: Masterwork longsword +6 melee (1d8+3/19-20x2)
Fortitude: +5, Reflex: +2, Will: -1
Skills: Bluff +5, Climb +5, Intimidate +8, Jump +5, Swim +5
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Persuasive, Toughness
Languages: Common
Equipment: Masterwork longsword, chain shirt, explorer's outfit, dagger, traveling bag (1d4+1 mundane items, 1d4 random pieces of jewelry [2d4x10 gp each]), potion of eagle's splendor (CL 3), signet ring, 2d6 gp, 2d6 sp, 2d4 cp
Class Features: Fighter bonus feats
Hook: "Stand and deliver! Your money or your life!"

Name: Architect (CR 4)
Race: Human, Class: Expert 5
HP: 22/22, AC: 11 (+1 Dex)
Strength: 12 (+1), Dexterity: 13 (+1), Constitution: 12 (+1)
Intelligence: 15 (+2), Wisdom: 14 (+2), Charisma: 10 (+0)
BAB/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Dagger +3 melee (1d4+1/19-20)
Full Attack: Dagger +3 melee (1d4+1/19-20)
Fortitude: +2, Reflex: +2, Will: +6
Skills: Balance +7, Climb +7, Craft (masonry) +10, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +13, Knowledge (local) +6, Listen +8, Profession (architect) +13, Search +6, Spot +8, Use Rope +5
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven
Feats: Alertness, Skill Focus (Knowledge [architecture and engineering]), Skill Focus (Profession [architect])
Equipment: Dagger, masterwork artisan's tools, artisan's outfit
Class Features: N/A
Hook: "No no no m'lord, let me do it."

Jolly
2010-09-05, 01:02 AM
I know I'm on the far end of the bell curve here, but I generally never bother with crunch for... almost any NPC's, really. If you make them all unique it's boring, if you constantly reuse the material it (for me) kinda loses something. "Oh look, another city guard. I'll need to roll 14 or better to hit, just like every other guard we've ever met." I make up almost everything on the spot.

What I'm really curious about is what you struggle with in regards to improv-ing? Perhaps you just get freaked out that you don't have everything in a list, and a little exercise in just making it up might help. Just a thought, you haven't really said for certain so just a little baseless speculation. :)

darkpuppy
2010-09-05, 01:42 AM
Ahhh, this used to cause me huge amounts of difficulty, and, to be honest, still causes me difficulty in World of Darkness (but this is because, in WoD, you have to write out 50 squillion character sheets already to make the setting believable... with political dealings and everything!)

But I solved it like this: First, have the basic idea. This comes in several flavours, but can be boiled down to, in DnD, "Players Go To Location X, Talk to Someone/Kill Something/Go "Whuh?" At A Trap/Go "Whuh?" At A Puzzle/Fetch McGuffin Mazinger X... Rinse, Repeat."

Secondly, figure out what's important from session to session. If it's something you want them to do or somewhere you want them to go, lay on the flavour text. If it's something you want them to avoid, don't mention it if at all possible. For traps, merely reverse this tendency. Traps are, after all, hidden.

Thirdly, if they keep going after random peasants, remember that, in most fantasy settings, adventurers crawl out of the bloody woodwork. Have a handy fighter/wizard/monk for such situations that's at least 5 levels above any individual party member, and bring them out every 3 peasants or so, changing the name each time (or not, if they persist in bothering peasants)

With these hints, you should be able to avoid the majority of Plot-Breaking from the players, and a feeling of Railroading for them. Unless they're contrary, in which case, a long stream of invective and speculations about their ancestry, their parent's bedroom behaviours, and reasons for their lack of intelligence/beauty/any redeeming features may well be called for. (j/k)

Any further questions about situations, don't hesitate to ask!

Kyeudo
2010-09-05, 01:50 AM
Improvisation is a very very important skill to be able to do. I run Exalted alot, and that basically is impossible to railroad. Your players are in charge of demi-gods who can punch out Cthulu and dodge an atomic explosion set off five feet away from them. If they want to get through that door, they have at least four ways to get through it. If they want to kill it, the only question is how long the fight lasts.

So, you have to get good at improvising. If the frog-man wants to climb up a wall and kill a guard, then impersonate the man to find out why soldiers are occupying the city, he probably won't give you advance notice.

I've also learned that what you think would be a cool adventure and what the PCs think would be a cool adventure are two different things. When they decide that exploring that cave you mentioned on the outskirts of town isn't as interesting as dealing with the oppressive mayor of town, kiss your notes good-bye.

Dirty n Evil
2010-09-05, 01:57 AM
I definitely play by the whole "the details only matter when the encounter matters" school of thought. If one of my players decided to tackle a random passer-by? I'd imagine the average commoner and have the player make their character roll to grapple them. If it's even close that they might have hit an unarmored opponent, why even bother spending all that time creating the peasant?

Certainly, no player likes to imagine the city street they're walking down is populated by the same peasant copied over and over like some poorly made video game... but when you want some variety, it can be as simple as a making a tiny notation of variation for that one particular entity off the base creature.

For example, let's say the characters are low level and they're facing a group of Gnolls. You could describe them as they read in the book... but tell them that there's one with a patch of white fur over half its face, armed with a long bow. In your notes, you give this fellow the feat of Point Blank Shot instead of Power Attack. Then mention of the rest of the group, there's a fellow with an ear lopped off but wearing a suit of metal ringlets instead of the leather his companions are dressed in. Alter his AC by the extra +2. Boom, done. It's not just a random encounter by a bunch of featureless Gnolls now... they're sufficiently varied that the PC's might refer back to that "patchy faced stinker who shot my mage pretty good with his arrows".

Think of DMing like painting. Sometimes, all you need are the broad strokes of the brush. Yes, you could take your time and focus on every tiny little fleck and detail... but the reality is that the audience of the painting (which in this case is your partying group) will mostly only appreciate the overall effect.

Jolly
2010-09-05, 06:26 PM
I play bass (very poorly, but still). Players (esp in the doom/sludge/stone metal genre I'm most familiar with) tend to get obsessed with their tone, running the signal through four or five different dirts and fuzz pedals that are all very similar to achieve just the right sound.

And then you go onstage at a ratty bar with horrid acoustics, competing with a drummer with double bass pedals on a trigger and a pair of jerkface guitarists with Marshal half-stacks who insist on detuning into your frequency range, and suddenly all those hours of tweaking and the $200 custom pedals are lost in the din.

Drawing up stats for every (type) of npc is similar. A ton of work, and ultimately not a good result. Just my experience, ymmv etc

RebelRogue
2010-09-05, 07:48 PM
I play bass (very poorly, but still). Players (esp in the doom/sludge/stone metal genre I'm most familiar with) tend to get obsessed with their tone, running the signal through four or five different dirts and fuzz pedals that are all very similar to achieve just the right sound.

And then you go onstage at a ratty bar with horrid acoustics, competing with a drummer with double bass pedals on a trigger and a pair of jerkface guitarists with Marshal half-stacks who insist on detuning into your frequency range, and suddenly all those hours of tweaking and the $200 custom pedals are lost in the din.

Drawing up stats for every (type) of npc is similar. A ton of work, and ultimately not a good result. Just my experience, ymmv etc
Slightly off-topic, perhaps:
As guitarist myself, I'm reminded of something John Petrucci (guitar player in Dream Theater) said at a clinic I attended. Typically as a guitarist you spend a lot of time perfecting your tone when playing alone. However, when you put that "perfect" tone in a band, it will more often than not be a bit anonymous - you have to do something to make it stick out. In his words "all great guitar sounds are slightly annoying" :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 08:18 PM
I think it's less for "dungeon with traps" and more for "Needlessly Sadistic Rube Goldberg Machine of Pain." The kind where the exact proportions of everything in the dungeon must be mapped out to know the exact specifications of how they kill everyone involved.

It's the concept of a trap as an encounter, instead of as an isolated *you stepped here, so you lose hp* sorta deal. Now, if you limited said trap to a specific area of the dungeon, it is just another area on the flowchart.

However, I tend to make dungeons very cohesive. For instance, walking by a series of cages on one level gives you a hint that perhaps you shouldn't pull the lever below them. Even if the sign promises gold. I like to plot out exactly how traps work, and the various repercussions of them. For instance, if this hallway floor is really a long panel with a fulcrum in the middle, where do the ends swing? Are there counterweights moving anywhere?

It's more fun to have players engaged in figuring out how stuff works to beat it rather than simply "I roll disable device".


It's somewhat evident you didn't read the whole thread. Otherwise you'd probably have noticed me describing at length why "just winging it" does NOT work fine in my experience. :smallannoyed:

There's a lot of "my way is the best way" on these forums. The basic challenge is that DMing takes a lot of info. You can solve it by either preparation or improvisation...or some combination between them. So long as the problem gets solved, the game is good. It's only when you ignore the issue that it becomes a hindrance. Also, some people tend to overrate their ability to wing things.

Jergmo
2010-09-05, 09:02 PM
This is the template I use for statting up most NPCs:

Name: Class/level/race. CR:, - Alignment
HP: Init: AC:
Attack:
Full Attack if applicable:
Saves:
Attribute array
Skills:
Feats:
Special abilities
Equipment

Followed by spellcasting information, if applicable.

As an example, here's my template for a conscript.

Conscript: 1st level human commoner. CR: 1/3 - True Neutral
HP: 3 Init: +0 AC: 12 (+1 padded armor, +1 light wooden shield) (-1 armor check)
Attack: Shortspear +2 melee (1d6+2) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+2)
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +0, Will -1
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Craft +2, Handle Animal +2, Listen +2, Profession +4, Spot +2
Feats: Weapon Focus(Spears), Skill Focus: Profession

The Weapon Focus and extra damage is due to a homebrewed version of the feat.

swagmanabz
2010-09-06, 12:31 AM
Peasants, members of the local theocracy, city guardsmen, local thugs, evil cultists, occasionally multiple versions to compensate for variant equipment, zombified or ghoulified versions thereof. :smallsigh:

they dont need full charector sheets!!! LOL theres simple ways of providing needed information without an in-depth charector sheet

Knaight
2010-09-06, 12:56 AM
So Jill, the Wyvern Knight of Daein who's going to be the PCs' escort for the length of a full session and who'll be fighting alongside them in several battles, gets a character sheet. So does Soren, the PCs' administrative officer who runs their castle for them and organises things when they're away from the base.

This sounds vaguely familiar for some reason.:smallamused:

Back to topic, if you are that awful at improvisation I would suggest playing a lighter system. Take Risus for instance (probably too light), you can make an NPC in all of five seconds. Lighter variants of Fudge are probably closer to 20 seconds, with most heavier variants still under 10 minutes. If you have to do so much prep work, don't play a system in which it takes so long.

Malificus
2010-09-06, 01:21 AM
I've made 36 characters from level 1 to level 6, not counting specific npcs.

I do it because it helps me learn the system better, and I like doing it. I need to make a lot more still. It lets me know each class well. ._.

I'm forcing situations for myself where I need to improv more, but I need this basis so I can do that.

Peregrine
2010-09-06, 02:10 AM
In the two weeks or so since I got my laptop back, I have typed up something in the neighborhood of 45 character sheets. I have 21 still to go. It's driving me nuts.

So my very simple question to all you DMs out there is: How the heck do you manage to get all this done without going nuts and murderering your own face off?

I'm gonna say "I don't" as well. But my answer is different to everyone else's on this thread, because I want to. I want to have believable stats for various race/class combos ready to hand. More specifically, I want to build a collection of stat cards that I can pull out on a moment's notice and run combat from.

But I just never have the time. So I tend to eyeball most modifiers for mooks and randoms. Heck, I eyeball a lot of stuff even for serious enemies, if those enemies have class levels (especially if I haven't worked out a spell list ahead of time).

A few tips that you may already have figured out for yourself... Use a character generator program. (Of course, if you're like me, you'll get frustrated picking at the flaws in those out there.) Build higher-level characters on the stats of lower-level ones (a 6th-level guard captain is built on the 3rd-level professional soldier, who came from the 1st-level militiaman). Leave commoner stats generic, like "Skills: Craft or Profession in chosen career +7". Reuse others' work (though again, if you're like me, you'll pick at the flaws too much :smalltongue:). There's a fairly good PDF I bought a while back called "Everyone Else (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=16606&it=1&filters=0_0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=111)" that's full of NPC stats... though I'm pretty sure I didn't pay the US$7.95 they're asking for it right now. :smallconfused:

Kylarra
2010-09-06, 02:23 AM
I honestly don't for the most part. Granted, at the moment I'm just STing for Exalted so mortal dice pools are pretty much just 4 (completely average) or 6 (competent) to 8 (exceptional), so as long as I know those three pools, I can pretty much improvise any non-exalt's pool even if I haven't statted them out fully.

Xyk
2010-09-06, 02:30 AM
My players will occasionally attack suspects who were not intended to be suspected without very much evidence because I like to run mystery campaigns. It's usually some sort of noble so I give them roughly 15 AC, 8 HP, and a rapier with like +2 to attack. I make up some numbers. I have a generic "Cop" character sheet lying around somewhere that I use for all of my campaigns. I have a continent map that I use for all campaigns. Reusing fairly generic things is a good way to make things easier.

RebelRogue
2010-09-06, 06:18 AM
I'm gonna say "I don't" as well. But my answer is different to everyone else's on this thread, because I want to. I want to have believable stats for various race/class combos ready to hand. More specifically, I want to build a collection of stat cards that I can pull out on a moment's notice and run combat from.
What I don't really get is: if you take time developing minor NPCs like this, there's one thing that strikes me as odd: namely, that you want to have the stats ready in case of combat. Wouldn't a set of personality traits and roleplaying notes be more useful - after all, if the players want to fight peasant#73 or city guard#13 they'll surely cut them down in a blow or two (I mean, even the wizard of a mid-level party could take such people down with his dagger alone). It's much more likely that they'll actually talk to them. I realize, of course, that a DM could easily keep lists of both.

I guess my ultimate argument for not doing crazy-preparation of this kind is, that it's going to be futile anyway (much like simulationism, IMO), because no matter what you do, you cannot describe the world in all its detail! It's ultimately an illusion. After all, nobody wants to play the game like this: http://xkcd.com/505

Edit: Let me just clarify, that I think you should prepare in any way that you feel will help you DM. But ultimately, it sounds like a false security blanket to me.

Psyx
2010-09-06, 06:56 AM
So my very simple question to all you DMs out there is: How the heck do you manage to get all this done without going nuts and murderering your own face off?

I do it by NEVER running D&D.

In other games I do it by buying an index card box, and writing the important NPC information on those.

Haarkla
2010-09-06, 07:02 AM
I know the feeling sir. While I might be somewhat decent at improv, I slowly learned that I enjoyed a well-established world far more than one I developed on the fly, because it took my railroading nature out of the equation and placed more of the plot in the hands of the players. If my NPCs are already statted out ahead of time, I'm much less likely to develop an on-the-spot NPC that plays to my at-that-moment wants and desires.

The solution? I started playing E6. Now, instead of having to stat out NPC from all walks of life all the way up to level 20, I only have to plan up to level 6. My stat blocks look like this:

Experts
Crafter Base Stats – Str 10; Dex 10; Con 12; Int 13; Wis 10; Cha 8.
Performer Base Stats – Str 10; Dex 10; Con 12; Int 8; Wis 10; Cha 13.

Bad Journeyman, Apprentice – Level 1 Expert; CR ½; Medium humanoid; HD1d6+1; hp 5; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +0; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +1 Ref 0 Will +2.
Skills and Feats: Main Skill +5, 6 more skills +4(5 skills for Performer), Endurance.

Journeyman – Level 1 Expert; CR ½; Medium humanoid; HD 1d6+1; hp 5; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +0; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +1 Ref 0 Will +2.
Skills and Feats: Main skill +8, 6 more skills +4(5 skills for Performer), Skill Focus in relevant main skill.

Skilled Journeyman – Level 2 Expert; CR 1; Medium humanoid; HD 2d6+2; hp 9; Init 0;
Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +1; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +1 Ref
0 Will +3.
Skills and Feats: Main skill + 13, 6 more skills +5(5 skills for Performer), Skill Focus in relevant main skill. Masterwork tools, one apprentice.

Master – Level 3 Expert; CR 2; Medium humanoid; HD 3d6+3; hp 14; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +2; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV Fort +2 Ref +1 Will +3.
Skills and Feats: Main skill + 16, 6 more skills +6(5 skills for Performer), Skill Focus in relevant main skill, Improved Skill Focus as well. Masterwork tools, two apprentices.

Commoners
Base Stats – Str 11; Dex 11; Con 11; Int 10; Wis 10; Cha 10.

Base Commoner – Level 1 Commoner; CR ½; Medium humanoid; HD 1d4; hp 3; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +0; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV +0 all.
Skills and Feats: Assume untrained in everything, Endurance.

Trained Commoner – Same as above.
Skills and Feats: Main skill + 4, 2 more skills +2, Endurance.

Successful Commoner – Level 2 Commoner; CR 1; Medium humanoid; HD 2d4; hp 5; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +1; Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV +0 all.
Skills and Feats: Main skill +7, 3 more skills +2, Skill Focus in relevant main skill.

Rare Commoner – Level 3 Commoner; CR 2; Medium humanoid; HD 3d4; hp 8; Init 0; Spd 30ft; AC 10; Base Atk +1, Dagger 1d4 or Club 1d6; AL TN; SV +1 all.
Skills and Feats: Main skill +9, 3 more skills +2, Skill Focus in relevant main skill, Endurance.


I have stat blocks for the Home Guard, the Elite Guard, the Navy, and so forth and so on. When something special happens, like someone turns into a zombie, I just use my knowledge of the zombie template to adjust on the fly.

To above poster: That's a pretty good idea. I might incorporate something like that into my games.
+1. However I am converting to BFRPG rather than E6.

While I am good at improvising, I do prefer to usually have fixed stats for those encountered by my unpredictable pcs in case they start a fight, which is often. Otherwise it seems like I am improvising who will win the fight, rather than letting the dice decide.

You could also use the d20ncp wiki. http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Peregrine
2010-09-06, 08:00 AM
I should clarify that, while I'd like to have townsfolk stats like the OP mentions, I put a higher priority on having stats for, say, orc barbarians, clerics and rogues, in order to have a well-rounded encounter of the appropriate level if the players wind up fighting some orcs.


What I don't really get is: if you take time developing minor NPCs like this, there's one thing that strikes me as odd: namely, that you want to have the stats ready in case of combat.

Well, combat, requesting assistance, or anything else that D&D stats model. When I make up personality traits and such on the fly, I never feel like I might have gotten it "wrong" like I can with game mechanics. Of course, "right" and "wrong" are all about how much fun is had, but if we assume that the rules are reasonable, then "correct according to the rules" is a good basis for a fun game. But it may be a false security, as you say.

Esser-Z
2010-09-06, 08:40 AM
I have several tricks, the biggest of which is to not make up full sheets for everything. Rather, I figure out the standard attack bonuses and the like for enemies and NPCs of the CR range I'm dealing with. I can use these to quickly prepare any number of enemies and allies without spending time fully stating them up.

Specific characters, of course, get their own sheets. However, Joe Schmoe the Village Smith only has his craft check and a couple notes on him--if I expect him to need to make a check. No need to full stat him. Mooks have combat statistics, nothing else.

I also only actually prepare stats for what I expect the PCs to encounter in a context that they will need stats for. For everything else, I improvise, using my guidelines for appropriate values. I have found myself to be quite good at improv.

Peregrine
2010-09-06, 08:47 AM
Mooks have combat statistics, nothing else.

The worst thing I find myself having to come up with is gear. I'm surprised to find my players still asking what those low-level hobgoblin guards were carrying so that they can loot them. They're level 12; masterwork swords (heck, +1 swords) shouldn't mean that much to them any more. To be fair, they're somewhat behind WBL guidelines at the moment; but if they can take down this evil cabal of mages, they'll definitely catch up again. :smalltongue:

Esser-Z
2010-09-06, 09:05 AM
The worst thing I find myself having to come up with is gear. I'm surprised to find my players still asking what those low-level hobgoblin guards were carrying so that they can loot them. They're level 12; masterwork swords (heck, +1 swords) shouldn't mean that much to them any more. To be fair, they're somewhat behind WBL guidelines at the moment; but if they can take down this evil cabal of mages, they'll definitely catch up again. :smalltongue:

Heh. I've managed to dodge that bullet. So far. Would probably just give generic stuff if asked.

Psyx
2010-09-06, 10:17 AM
So I'm the only person who habitually gets players who are hell-bent on bull rushing the campaign off it's rails via utterly incomprehensible acts?

No. But if your players just kill everything in sight they they should probably just go and play Counterstrike with a wall-hack or something.

I'd stop statting every commoner and just flip the MM open at a random page for the stats of the next commoner they swing for. *flip* Hmm... Aboleth, huh? Let's roll!

I mean: If they're just bored and looking for an interesting fight, then this will give them one. If they're just being *****, then you're doing the same. :smallcool: