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Orzel
2010-09-04, 01:46 AM
Maybe I'm slow for just realizing this. Or maybe I thought this up before and forgot (more likely).

Fitness in D&D is weird.
The wizard who barely exercises, the old cleric in heavy armor, the nimble young rogue, and the ever training fighter...

all move at the same speed.

Now round represents ~6-8 seconds in the game world. I know some people who wish they could double move and move 60 feet in 6 seconds without running and losing mobility.

You'd think there be some rules, class features, or something in the base character creation that what separate the general speed of different characters. Unless every wizard jogs in the morning and does push ups before resting.

Cespenar
2010-09-04, 01:56 AM
Since every self-respecting Wizard has a Con and Dex of at least 14, the point is kinda moot. :smalltongue:

Oh, and the old cleric in heavy armor doesn't move at the same rate. Heavy armor reduces your speed. Just to remind.

Anyway, your point is valid but there are lots of concepts in real life which are omitted in D&D logic. You could devise a homebrew rule perhaps, if you really want to have fitness defined in your game.

Volos
2010-09-04, 02:15 AM
If you have a very very low strength score and you exceed your load limits, you will be slowed down, whereas a figher with high strength will be able to move normally with the same load. If you have low Con and try to run, you will tire quickly and have less of a chance to catch your breath (Con checks to keep running) and you will fall behind. If you have low Con you have to start making checks to hold your breath sooner. If you have low Str, you can't jump as far. Low Dex keeps you from tumbling well or keeping your ballance. As long as there are some obsticals between you and where you need to go, the signs of fitness or lack thereof will start to become apparent. It isn't perfect, but fitness was concidered in the design of 3.5 D&D.

Orzel
2010-09-04, 02:18 AM
Since every self-respecting Wizard has a Con and Dex of at least 14, the point is kinda moot. :smalltongue:


"After this lap, I'm going to prepare my 3rd level spells."

You'd think if the bothered to make barbarians have Illiteracy, they'd made academic characters pay some cost to be not unfit.


If you have a very very low strength score and you exceed your load limits, you will be slowed down, whereas a figher with high strength will be able to move normally with the same load. If you have low Con and try to run, you will tire quickly and have less of a chance to catch your breath (Con checks to keep running) and you will fall behind. If you have low Con you have to start making checks to hold your breath sooner. If you have low Str, you can't jump as far. Low Dex keeps you from tumbling well or keeping your ballance. As long as there are some obsticals between you and where you need to go, the signs of fitness or lack thereof will start to become apparent. It isn't perfect, but fitness was concidered in the design of 3.5 D&D.

Since clothes and basic belongings rarely get old characters to medium load, you'll still end up with 70 year old human wizards running as fast and 18 yr old human fighters.

Math_Mage
2010-09-04, 03:34 AM
"After this lap, I'm going to prepare my 3rd level spells."

You'd think if the bothered to make barbarians have Illiteracy, they'd made academic characters pay some cost to be not unfit.

But then we'd miss out on all the Dunbar Mastersmates of the world campaign setting.

Vinyadan
2010-09-04, 05:00 AM
For what concerns old age:
personally, I would houserule something like "thanks to your adventuring life, you are still athletic and able at running and fighting. However, if you run too much (to the DM's discretion) you will need to roll a d20. If you roll a 1, you suffer a heart attack. Roll again to see its effects. If you get a sip of a regeneration potion within the next two rounds, you only are shaken for the next three rounds. If you don't, you will suffer the heart attack's effects, as rolled by the second d20. While suffering a heart attack, you cannot move from your position; you can, however, speak and perform simple actions. You cannot strike an opponent, cast a spell with somatic components - not even divine ones - or play an instrument."

As for base land speed, I think trying to make rules concerning speed and dexterity would be too complex.

bokodasu
2010-09-04, 07:29 AM
These are adventurers we're talking about - running around and fighting all those monsters keeps you pretty fit. And even in real life, it's possible for an 82-year-old (http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/obituaries/20031125-9999_1m25davey.html) to finish the Ironman.

Spiryt
2010-09-04, 07:42 AM
Yes, this is ridiculous for every man, elf and orc to have the same speed, regardless of size, age, and other things.

Many things are ridiculous in D&D, it's simple game.

There are rules for determining who's faster:




In round-by-round movement, simply counting off squares, itís impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, itís no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one.

When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, thereís a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.

Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.

Making it more complicated would probably only cause more silliness IMO, accomplishing nothing...

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-04, 07:45 AM
These are adventurers we're talking about - running around and fighting all those monsters keeps you pretty fit. And even in real life, it's possible for an 82-year-old (http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/obituaries/20031125-9999_1m25davey.html) to finish the Ironman.

This. D&D models heroes in combat situations.

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-04, 08:00 AM
Not to mention the massively incorrect assumption D&D makes than horses make you travel faster per day. (They don't, overall. You might a a bit of an increase, but not three times.)

Speed is one of those things D&D doesn't really think about to hard.

30' per round actually equates to Rolemaster's 50' per 10-second round, which they state is about 2.54 miles per hour for a dead-average character of middle-height (as a rule of thumb, reckon 15'/RM rnd is about 1 mile/hour). Rolemaster varies the base number based on height and Quickness stat; to do so with the same granularity in D&D would mean violating the "everything should in in increments of 5 feet" rule.

Also, it means a Quickness 100 character of above average height can just about reach a walking speed of 6-7 miles per hour, while extrapolating the other way means a moderately armour pixie has a negative move rate... Which illustrates the danger of having a system that increases by static numbers, not proportion!

(My favourite character, a 5'7" girl with an astounding Quickness stat (partly due to her mutant power partly due to exceptionally lucky stat gain rolls on my part!) can actually run at 35 miles per hour (315'/rnd in D&D) for about 50 seconds, covering nearly half a mile...(after which the poor girl is a bit knackered, though.) And it's not as if she's got a lot of optimisation in that area!)

Ernir
2010-09-04, 08:34 AM
Hmm. If you follow rules to the letter, it's amazing how much the strength/con penalties hinder one's movement.

It might be reasonable to houserule some reduction in base speed for Old and Venerable characters, but I think that even as-is, it's not the biggest suspension-breaker D&D has to offer...

(My favourite character, a 5'7" girl with an astounding Quickness stat (partly due to her mutant power partly due to exceptionally lucky stat gain rolls on my part!) can actually run at 35 miles per hour (315'/rnd in D&D) for about 50 seconds, covering nearly half a mile...(after which the poor girl is a bit knackered, though.) And it's not as if she's got a lot of optimisation in that area!)

A bit faster than Usain Bolt. Impressive.

How many extra legs did this mutation give her, you say? :smalltongue:

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-04, 09:09 AM
A bit faster than Usain Bolt. Impressive.

How many extra legs did this mutation give her, you say? :smalltongue:

Actually...the crazy part is, that's not even her primary power! (Which is to shoot electro-plasmatic balls of energy which create web of energy between them, doing truly horrendous damage.) Her Quickness and Agility boosts and her mutant sense of balance are kinda secondary; her "mutant" stat boost only actually accounts for 1/4 of her stat bonus. She's got a higher QU bonus than the man in the street's QU stat...

And, if she was built as a sprinter, as I recall (I can't look it up, since my books are buried as the litchen is being remodelled) there's a skill which lets you increase the maximum speed multiplier, I if I'd tried, I could have built her Distance Running skill. a lot more too, because in RM, it's exhaustion which is the limiting factor.

Mind you, that whole party is a right bunch of freaks (Hel Jen's supposedly the only "proper" mutant, in the strict X-Men sense). Apart from, like two characters (one of which was not an adventurer by profession but the fiance of one of the other characters and who is basically a non-combatant), that whole party move and acts so fast that about the only people they don't flat out beat in initiative - all the time - are the time-travelling ninja monk enemies. Yes, in order to have someone to not go last, they have to be freaking TIME-TRAVELLNG NINJA MONKS! Even the slow guy is basically a serious badass by regular people standards. And this isn't even a superhero genera game!

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-04, 09:24 AM
Ha! This thread title got my attention because I currently am running a game where one of the main NPC's is an old man who can run circles around them.

A 120 year old barbarian/frenzied berserker (with a homebrew template that amongst other things doubles your life once you get to Venerable).

He's usually slow and frail seeming, but get him really angry and he kind of goes into a senile rage madness.

Shademan
2010-09-04, 10:53 AM
"After this lap, I'm going to prepare my 3rd level spells."

You'd think if the bothered to make barbarians have Illiteracy, they'd made academic characters pay some cost to be not unfit.



Since clothes and basic belongings rarely get old characters to medium load, you'll still end up with 70 year old human wizards running as fast and 18 yr old human fighters.

they've had years of practise

Mark Hall
2010-09-04, 11:13 AM
One thing I have suggested is increasing your movement rate by for every 5 full points of Strength and Dex bonus you have. Thus, if you've got a +3 strength and a +2 dex, your human has a speed of 35. If you put on Plate Armor, however, your speed goes all the way down to 20, since your Dex bonus is capped at +1.

If I wanted to get a bit more nuanced on this, I might say that your combat movement is determined by Strength mod + Dex Mod, while your overland speed is determined by your Strength Mod + Con Mod (i.e. you can keep going when others would stop). So the group of Ideal Elves (i.e. 10 Strength, 20 Dex) would be very fast in combat, while the army of Ideal Dwarves (i.e. 10 Strength and 20 Con) would be surprising fast over long distances (having a 25 movement rate for distances, as opposed to their 20 in combat).

Yes, yes, I know. "Dwarves are natural sprinters. They're wasted over long distances." See my forthcoming article, "Why D&D owes more to John Ford than Peter Jackson."

Spiryt
2010-09-04, 11:24 AM
One thing I have suggested is increasing your movement rate by for every 5 full points of Strength and Dex bonus you have. Thus, if you've got a +3 strength and a +2 dex, your human has a speed of 35. If you put on Plate Armor, however, your speed goes all the way down to 20, since your Dex bonus is capped at +1.

It doesn't make sense to limit heavy armors like that IMO...

It's not that they're very well treated in 3.5 anyway, so Dex cap could stay only for AC IMO.

Mark Hall
2010-09-04, 11:38 AM
It doesn't make sense to limit heavy armors like that IMO...

It's not that they're very well treated in 3.5 anyway, so Dex cap could stay only for AC IMO.

Why shouldn't it make sense for heavy armor to reduce your foot speed, and your dexterity's contribution to it?

Spiryt
2010-09-04, 11:52 AM
Why shouldn't it make sense for heavy armor to reduce your foot speed, and your dexterity's contribution to it?

It already decreases your speed.

D&D "max Dex" is plenty stupid, as inhumanly agile creature benefits from it's Dexterity in heavy armor just as much as somewhat agile (12 Dex) human...

No need to gimp it further for not very well made "realism", if game anyway won't have much to do with very realistic feel at all anyway, IMO.

Mark Hall
2010-09-04, 12:00 PM
It already decreases your speed.

D&D "max Dex" is plenty stupid, as inhumanly agile creature benefits from it's Dexterity in heavy armor just as much as somewhat agile (12 Dex) human...

No need to gimp it further for not very well made "realism", if game anyway won't have much to do with very realistic feel at all anyway, IMO.

Generally, I agree that the Max dex is a poor mechanic, and that armor check penalties should cover it. However, I tend to take a position similar to the Third Invid War... make stuff compatible with the rules, so house rules can keep working as they always do. If you're using Max Dex, then it's going to slow you down. If you're not, then it's not.

Spiryt
2010-09-04, 12:02 PM
Generally, I agree that the Max dex is a poor mechanic, and that armor check penalties should cover it. However, I tend to take a position similar to the Third Invid War... make stuff compatible with the rules, so house rules can keep working as they always do. If you're using Max Dex, then it's going to slow you down. If you're not, then it's not.

Well, anyway, Max Dex refers to AC:


This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearerís ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesnít affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.

So as it doesn't apply to any other Dex related abilities, it would in fact be compatible with rules for character to keep his/her speed bonus from Dexterity, as it's "other Dexterity related ability".

arrowhen
2010-09-04, 12:19 PM
Not to mention the massively incorrect assumption D&D makes than horses make you travel faster per day. (They don't, overall. You might a a bit of an increase, but not three times.)

To get that much of a speed increase you'd have to be a Medium sized character in medium armor who weighs less than 121 lb. including all their gear. Most characters aren't getting anywhere near 3x their movement rate by riding instead of walking.

Jota
2010-09-04, 01:18 PM
Something I wrote a ways back. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/User:Jota_II/Movement_and_Realism)

I think the math is right. It's never been a forte of mine.

Orzel
2010-09-04, 02:58 PM
In "Orzeld20", wizards and other classes who need not exercise to practice their class features (1/2 BAB classes) must pay 4 skill points, multiclass with a 3/4BAB or high class, or get their movement speed reduced by 5'.

That way Mister "I fly and teleport everywhere" Tower Mage can't run as fast as everyone else.

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-04, 03:15 PM
To get that much of a speed increase you'd have to be a Medium sized character in medium armor who weighs less than 121 lb. including all their gear. Most characters aren't getting anywhere near 3x their movement rate by riding instead of walking.

Sorry, you are correct; I meant twice walking pace, not three times (unless your in heavy armour or you're Dwarf!) Still vastly more than you really get out of a horse, in any case.

reptilecobra13
2010-09-04, 08:22 PM
Ha! This thread title got my attention because I currently am running a game where one of the main NPC's is an old man who can run circles around them.

A 120 year old barbarian/frenzied berserker (with a homebrew template that amongst other things doubles your life once you get to Venerable).

He's usually slow and frail seeming, but get him really angry and he kind of goes into a senile rage madness.

I love this. I might have to make my players play in a venerable only campaign where they have to defend their nursing home from an invasion of estate attorneys. :smallbiggrin:

Temotei
2010-09-04, 08:36 PM
Being venerable carries a -5' penalty to your speed in my games, but only when calculating run speed...if I remember. :smalltongue:

Dr.Epic
2010-09-04, 08:38 PM
Initiative plays a role: it shows when you get up off your ass and start moving.

Jallorn
2010-09-04, 10:14 PM
I did some math once, assuming that you take a double move action, and assuming a round is 6 seconds, then you're moving 600 feet in a minute, 36000 feet per hour. That's About 6 miles per hour. The average olympic runner achieves 10 miles per hour, or so I remember hearing somewhere.

Now assuming you take a full round action to run, and assuming you're not playing an olympic runner, and therefore don't have the run feat, you're moving twice that, or about 12 miles per hour.

I think DnD screwed up on move speed.

Temotei
2010-09-04, 10:18 PM
I did some math once, assuming that you take a double move action, and assuming a round is 6 seconds, then you're moving 600 feet in a minute, 36000 feet per hour. That's About 6 miles per hour. The average olympic runner achieves 10 miles per hour, or so I remember hearing somewhere.

Now assuming you take a full round action to run, and assuming you're not playing an olympic runner, and therefore don't have the run feat, you're moving twice that, or about 12 miles per hour.

I think DnD screwed up on move speed.

A long distance runner would want Endurance, not Run, though. [/annoying nitpick]

Jallorn
2010-09-04, 10:20 PM
So I was stating up a sprinter.

Temotei
2010-09-04, 11:44 PM
So I was stating up a sprinter.

A sprinter going 10 mph is a sad sprinter. I did that when I was, like, seven.

An Olympic sprinter can go between 25 and 30 mph when booking it.

Jeff the Green
2010-09-04, 11:51 PM
A sprinter going 10 mph is a sad sprinter. I did that when I was, like, seven.

An Olympic sprinter can go between 25 and 30 mph when booking it.

And sure isn't running for an hour.

Temotei
2010-09-04, 11:55 PM
And sure isn't running for an hour.

That's true. Running in D&D is weird. :smallsigh:

I'll duck out of this before I get really annoying with my weird analyses. :smallwink:

Tetsubo 57
2010-09-05, 07:04 AM
I've seen the alternative rule of Dex x 3 = Speed before. But it does make your Dex even more important...