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View Full Version : [3.5; ToB II] New base class: Firebrand [PEACH]



playswithfire
2010-09-04, 08:36 AM
This is the second completed adept class from my attempt at a follow-on to ToB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8691736). Looking for any comments. It's designed to be the ToB-style replacement for the bard and marshal, with the adaptation in the third section bringing it closer to the bard.


HIT DIE : d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+0 |
2|
0|
2|Follow my Lead +1 |
4|
4|
1

2nd|+1 |
3|
0|
3| |
5|
4|
1

3rd|+2 |
3|
1|
3|Cautious Stance |
6|
4|
1

4th|+3 |
4|
1|
4| |
7|
5|
2

5th|+3 |
4|
1|
4| |
8|
5|
2

6th|+4 |
5|
2|
5|Watch and learn(Stance) |
9|
6|
2

7th|+5 |
5|
2|
5| |
10|
6|
2

8th|+6/+1 |
6|
2|
6|Follow my Lead +2 |
11|
6|
3

9th|+6/+1 |
6|
3|
6| |
12|
7|
3

10th|+7/+2 |
7|
3|
7| |
13|
7|
3

11th|+8/+3 |
7|
3|
7|Watch and learn(Counter)|
14|
8|
3

12th|+9/+4 |
8|
4|
8| |
15|
8|
4

13th|+9/+4 |
8|
4|
8| |
16|
8|
4

14th|+10/+5 |
9|
4|
9|Follow my Lead +3 |
17|
9|
4

15th|+11/+6/+1 |
9|
5|
9| |
18|
9|
4

16th|+12/+7/+2 |
10|
5|
10|Watch and learn(Boost) |
19|
10|
5

17th|+12/+7/+2 |
10|
5|
10| |
20|
10|
5

18th|+13/+8/+3 |
11|
6|
11|Spontaneous Recovery |
21|
10|
5

19th|+14/+9/+4 |
11|
6|
11| |
22|
11|
5

20th|+15/+10/+5|
12|
6|
12|Follow my Lead +4 |
23|
11|
5

[/table]
Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, x4 at 1st level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Listen, Martial Lore, Perform, Knowledge(local), Knowledge(history), Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble

FIREBRAND
Many will try to you tell that one man can not accomplish that much, but I found that it takes very few to lead the many to achieve great things.
-- Naidapyr, a firebrand
MAKING A FIREBRANDA firebrand is a secondary melee combatant whose primary benefit to an encounter will more often be improving his allies' combat ability rather than dealing direct damage himself, though his martial maneuvers allow him to do that as well. While closer coordination is needed to gain the benefits of a firebrand's leadership than with a bard's, the firebrand's Follow My Lead ability functions even in an anti-magic field.
Abilities: Charisma is the most vital score for a firebrand, as it powers most of his abilities. Dexterity is important for defense and more often than not for his attack via the Weapon Finesse feat. Intelligence provides him with a wide array of skills, though, with 6 ranks per level, this of secondary concern. Constitution is an important to him as it is any other character; somewhat less so if he favors ranged combat. Strength is important for his attack and damage if he does not take the Weapon Finesse route. Wisdom is necessary of only to improve his Will saves.
Races: Most firebrands are gnomes and half-elves, the former exploiting the fact that their small size leaves them often underestimated and the latter their long lifespans which gain them many loyal allies. Every race has need of the skills of a firebrand from time to time, however. Elves and halflings who become firebrands favor the Master's Voice discipline, the latter also often making great use of Wandering Eye. Human firebrands tend more towards the White Raven and Desert Wind discipline, seeking to, literally when necessary, light a fire under their followers and lead them to victory. Dwarves and Half-Orcs, with their Charisma penalty, are unconvential choices to become firebrands, but their ability to wade safely into melee makes it easier for them to make use of their, admittedly less fully realized, leadership abilities.
Alignment: A firebrand may be of any alignment, as all causes need their champions. There is a slight tendency towards chaos over law and neutrality on either axis is less common than the other possibilities. The only truly rare alignment for a name is True Neutral, but even this is only uncommon, not unallowed.
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 gp (150 gp)
Starting Age: As bardCLASS FEATURESWeapon and Armor Profiency: As a firebrand, you are proficient with all simple weapons as well as the halberd, longsword, rapier, scimitar, and short bow and light and medium armor, but not with shields.
Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of four martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Desert Wind, Master's Voice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9044629&postcount=26), Wandering Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9123215&postcount=28), and White Raven. Upon reaching 4th level and every even-numbered firebrand level thereafter, you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.
Maneuvers Readied: You can ready all four of your maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. You may recover a single maneuver as a move action which must be followed by a melee attack or a standard action to do nothing.
Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th, you can choose additional stances.
Follow My Lead (Ex): When you attack an enemy, allies gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls when they attack that same enemy before the start of your next turn; they also gain a +1 bonus on Reflex saves when they are subjected to the same effect you are. These bonuses increases by 1 at 8th, 14th and 20th level. You gain the same bonus to damage rolls on subsequent attacks if you attack the same enemy more than once in a round and apply half the Reflex save bonus, rounded down, to all of your Reflex saves.
Cautious Stance (Ex): While you have an active stance, you gain a bonus to Armor Class against all touch attacks equal to your Charisma bonus; however, your touch AC can never exceed your Armor Class against normal attacks.
Watch and Learn (Ex): Your allies observe your technique and begin to copy you, gaining the ability to use some of your maneuvers and stances. When initiating a shared stance or maneuver, each ally uses their own initiator level, skill ranks and ability modifiers to determine its effects.
Stance: Beginning at 6th level, any ally who sees you initiate a stance may also initiate it as an immediate action. If they do not already know the stance, it automatically ends after a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus, minimum 1, and they are fatigued when the stance ends, even if it ends because they change their stance. The fatigue lasts for one round if the stance was a 1st or 3rd level stance, 2 rounds for a 5th or 6th level stance and 3 rounds for an 8th level stance.
Counter: Beginning at 11th level, you may expend a counter you know as an immediate action to give that ally the ability to initiate it. If the ally chooses not initiate the counter, it is still expended.
Boost: Beginning at 16th level, when you initiate a boost, you may choose to give knowledge of it to a number of allies equal to your Charisma bonus, minimum 1. Each of these allies may use the boost at any one time before your next action.
Spontaneous Recovery: Beginning at 18th level, you can recover a single maneuver as a free action and it can be used in the same round. This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier and can not be used in two consecutive rounds.FIREBRANDS IN THE GAMEFirebrands can be found as criminal masterminds as often as they can captains of the guards of villages the PCs visit and anything in between, but usually as either some sort of leadership position or trusted aide to the leader. Large groups composed entirely of firebrands are rare, as their large personalities can lead to conflict as easily as they can collaboration. A firebrand character traveling by himself may be a deposed leader, malcontent, or simply a wandering do-gooder and can used to hire the PCs for a wide range of tasks. If traveling with the party, a firebrand with an opposing alignment will try to manipulate them and gain a leadership position while one of compatible alignment can be their most dependable ally.
When creating a firebrand character, consider what cause or organization he will champion. A firebrand's interactions with NPCs will likely be colored by their opinions of his cause, either finding him new allies or particularly intense rivals and enemies. A firebrand can be found almost anywhere as his skill points and leadership abilities make him equally suited to serving as a battlefield leader, court herald, or local politician. The most interesting opponent for a firebrand is another firebrand championing an opposing group and any followers he may have.
Adaptation
Some firebrands, already having access to most of the supernatural maneuvers, also develop true arcane power. To create an arcane firebrand, reduce the firebrand's hit dice to d6 and his Fort save to Poor. He loses proficiency with medium armor, but can cast in light armor with no risk of arcane spell failure. His available disciplines are reduced to Master's Voice and a choice of one of his other normally available disciplines (two if he has the dragon type or the dragonblood subtype). Whenever he would learn a new maneuver, he may instead learn a new spell from the bard spell list of a level up to the maximum learnable by a bard of his initiator level. He uses his initiator level as his caster level for all level-based effects when casting the spell. DCs are Charisma-based. At 4th level and every 4th level thereafter, when you would normally swap out a known maneuver to learn a new maneuver or spell, you may instead swap out a known spell; at other such even levels, you may still only swap out a known maneuver. Spells are readied and refreshed as maneuvers, but a spell can not be refreshed while its effect is active.

playswithfire
2010-09-06, 11:04 AM
So, I take it no one at least sees anything glaringly wrong with the class. I think it should be roughly comparable in power to the swordsage. Any disagreement?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-06, 03:28 PM
Looks good overall. A few things:


Follow My Lead (Ex): Grant allies a +1 leadership bonus on damage rolls when they attack an enemy you attacked earlier this round (also applies to your iterative attacks) and on reflex saves when they are subjected to the same effect you are (also applies to your Reflex saves). These bonuses increases by 1 at 8th, 14th and 20th level.

You might as well make this untyped instead of making a "leadership" bonus type.


Stance: Beginning at 6th level, any ally who sees you initiate a stance may also initiate it as an immediate action. If they do not already know the stance, it automatically ends after a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus, minimum 1, and they are fatigued when the stance ends, even if it ends because they change their stance.

Needs a duration on the fatigue.


Counter: Beginning at 11th level, when you see an ally is about to be attacked, you may expend a counter you know as an immediate action to give that ally the ability to initiate it. If that ally has any maneuvers readied, one is expended without gaining its benefits.

This unfairly penalizes other initiators. I'd give a benefit for having a counter readied rather than forcing them to expend one of they do.

Also, I don't know if I like the 7 maneuvers readied at first level. The swordsage's schtick is being the "blade wizard" who knows the most about the Sublime Way and has the broadest knowledge of its techniques; having a "commander" class who starts off with more maneuvers doesn't really work. That also makes this the premier ToB dip class for anyone who wants maneuvers from its disciplines known. I'd cut that down to 4 or 5 at most.

playswithfire
2010-09-07, 01:20 PM
Looks good overall. A few things:

You might as well make this untyped instead of making a "leadership" bonus type.

Needs a duration on the fatigue.

Also, I don't know if I like the 7 maneuvers readied at first level. The swordsage's schtick is being the "blade wizard" who knows the most about the Sublime Way and has the broadest knowledge of its techniques; having a "commander" class who starts off with more maneuvers doesn't really work. That also makes this the premier ToB dip class for anyone who wants maneuvers from its disciplines known. I'd cut that down to 4 or 5 at most.


Made the bonus untyped and made fatigue for the stance 1-3 rounds depending on the stance level. Cut it to starting with 4 maneuvers, though it still ends up with 23, since you're right; swordsage should have the most at all levels.



This unfairly penalizes other initiators. I'd give a benefit for having a counter readied rather than forcing them to expend one of they do.


Hmm, you're right. I'll have to think about that one. Maybe they can expend a readied counter to gain a bonus on whatever check/attack roll the shared counter requires.

Pechvarry
2010-09-07, 02:37 PM
Howdy.

On Follow My Lead:
-I think it'd be better to state that allies gain the +damage benefits for attacking an enemy you attacked before the start of your next turn. As is written, it appears any ally with a higher initiative wouldn't get the benefits of it. Unless you intend this specifically to work with White Raven Tactics.

-As far as I'm reading, the Firebrand will always add their Follow My Lead bonus to their reflex saves? This makes their level 20 saves 12/10/12. Effectively a monk. I don't really know what to do about this, but something should probably give. Lowering their Fort save makes no sense, given it's a melee class. But it's painful to give a leader a low Will progression. I'd consider lowering their Fort progression but make Follow My Lead apply to fortitude saves as well.

Or just lose the part where it affects you, too.

Watch and Learn:
-Counter: I think you should remove the part about seeing an ally be attacked. Consider changing it to "Beginning at 11th level, you may expend a counter you know as an immediate action to give an ally you can see the ability to initiate it. If they do not initiate it immediately, it fades." The reasons for this are simple enough: Not all counters require the target to be attacked. Perhaps you have a sword/board Knight in your party. You could grab Martial Study (Shield Block) and prepare it for him, expending it whenever he's adjacent to an ally getting attacked. I haven't analyzed that move for efficiency, but you get the idea. Of course, if you don't like "fades if not used immediately", you could change it as you see fit. "Must be used within 1 round" or what-have-you.

-Boost: Just as Dice pointed out with Counter, this also negatively affects those who can initiate. If you lose the caveat on the Counter, I would on the Boost as well.

Though to counterpoint this point: these abilities are still good for other initiators. They're just less good than they are on non-initiators. Since initiators all have a recovery mechanic, they're gaining versatility by partying with a Firebrand. For this reason, even if you get rid of the "must expend" caveats, I don't think they need to actually buff initiators.

playswithfire
2010-09-07, 04:12 PM
Howdy.

On Follow My Lead:
-I think it'd be better to state that allies gain the +damage benefits for attacking an enemy you attacked before the start of your next turn. As is written, it appears any ally with a higher initiative wouldn't get the benefits of it. Unless you intend this specifically to work with White Raven Tactics.

Before your next turn is more what I meant it to be; just have to figure out how to reword the sentence.


-As far as I'm reading, the Firebrand will always add their Follow My Lead bonus to their reflex saves? This makes their level 20 saves 12/10/12. Effectively a monk. I don't really know what to do about this, but something should probably give. Lowering their Fort save makes no sense, given it's a melee class. But it's painful to give a leader a low Will progression. I'd consider lowering their Fort progression but make Follow My Lead apply to fortitude saves as well.

Or just lose the part where it affects you, too.

Yeah, I can't cut the Fort save because the arcane adaptation loses its Fort save as part of gaining bard spells and the spellcasting variant definitely needs a good Will, so maybe I will make it not effect you. Or only half-affect you.


Watch and Learn:
-Counter: I think you should remove the part about seeing an ally be attacked. Consider changing it to "Beginning at 11th level, you may expend a counter you know as an immediate action to give an ally you can see the ability to initiate it. If they do not initiate it immediately, it fades." The reasons for this are simple enough: Not all counters require the target to be attacked. Perhaps you have a sword/board Knight in your party. You could grab Martial Study (Shield Block) and prepare it for him, expending it whenever he's adjacent to an ally getting attacked. I haven't analyzed that move for efficiency, but you get the idea. Of course, if you don't like "fades if not used immediately", you could change it as you see fit. "Must be used within 1 round" or what-have-you.

Good catch and thanks. I will definitely update that.


-Boost: Just as Dice pointed out with Counter, this also negatively affects those who can initiate. If you lose the caveat on the Counter, I would on the Boost as well.

Though to counterpoint this point: these abilities are still good for other initiators. They're just less good than they are on non-initiators. Since initiators all have a recovery mechanic, they're gaining versatility by partying with a Firebrand. For this reason, even if you get rid of the "must expend" caveats, I don't think they need to actually buff initiators.

Fair point. It shouldn't be a punishment, but they also don't need an extra benefit.

Thanks for all your comments.

playswithfire
2010-09-09, 04:30 PM
It now only adds half the reflex bonus to its own reflex saves, wording is fixed on Watch and Learn(counter), and watch and learn has a clarifying statement that your allies use their own effective initiator levels when initiating the shared maneuvers and stances, so other adepts will get more use out of some of them than other allies.