Sorcerer Feats...

[zephiros]

Alright, so I'm starting a new campaign tonight which starts at level 15, and I'm making a sorcerer for it. Now most of that (skills, ability advancement, spells, any equipment) I can fully do on my own. I would be capable of doing the feats myself as well, but the thing is I have a very poor general knowledge of feats, to the extent that if it's not in PHB1 I wouldn't be thinking to use it, and even then I might not pick the best ones.

I also forget how metamagic feats work >.< I remember it being something like you can gain through class advancement depending on class, and you can also trade out normal feats for them? But I'm not sure on that.

Basically if anyone could recommend a feat spread for a level 15 Sorcerer, that'd be wonderfully great. My character will, in all likelihood, be a human, so unless my math brain has entirely died, that's 7 altogether? Any help with that is much appreciated, I really need to buff up on my feat knowledge sometime, but for the moment, I'm still researching classes / races. Thanks again for any assistance.

[RMS Oceanic]

For sorcerors, you take Metamagic feats like any other feat. Remember that for Sorcerors, and other spontaneous casters, applying the metamagic feat extends the casting time to a full round action, meaning you get no benefit from the Quicken Spell feat.

If you are going to be a Metamagic dude, you can negate this penalty by taking Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage, with a prerequisite of 12 ranks in Spellcraft.

[Cog]

If you are going to be a Metamagic dude, you can negate this penalty by taking Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage, with a prerequisite of 12 ranks in Spellcraft.
There's also an alternate class feature in either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage that lets you trade out your familiar for the same ability.

[RMS Oceanic]

There's also an alternate class feature in either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage that lets you trade out your familiar for the same ability.

Yeah, but you can only do that 3+Int times a day. The feat makes it unlimited.

[Caphi]

Second Rapid Metamagic, and also Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon if you can use it. It lets you use two spell slots as a slot of one level higher.

[Kaww]

There's also an alternate class feature in either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage that lets you trade out your familiar for the same ability.

Since you (probably) will not go with lvl 15 sorcerer, this is a good choice that saves a feat. As you will be lvl 5 sorcerer lvl [insert level] [insert PrC] you don't lose anything important by giving up your pet cat Maurice.

As for feats try getting those that reduce mm spell level adjustment and apply them to your favored mm feat. Maybe some fun/good racial feats?

[Greenish]

I really need to buff up on my feat knowledge sometime, but for the moment, I'm still researching classes / races. Thanks again for any assistance.Have you thought of being a kobold? :smallamused:

[zephiros]

Have you thought of being a kobold? :smallamused:

I'm sure there's something I'm missing there, apologies but I know nothing about Kobolds. At all. :P

And...yeah, I forgot if you use metamagic on a spell it takes a higher level spell slot doesn't it?

[Greenish]

I'm sure there's something I'm missing there, apologies but I know nothing about Kobolds. At all. :PThey've got access to the Greater Dragonic Rites (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), which increase their sorcerer level by one, and to Dragonwrought feat which changes their type to dragon and removes aging penalties (so you could start as a venerable dragonwrought kobold for +3 to all mental stats).

The dragon type qualifies them for a few kinds of cheese, too.


And...yeah, I forgot if you use metamagic on a spell it takes a higher level spell slot doesn't it?Depending on the metamagic, it can up the slot from 0 to 6 levels.

[zephiros]

Your link for Greater Draconic Rites seems broken. :/

[Greenish]

Your link for Greater Draconic Rites seems broken. :/Oops, should pay attention to what I'm copy-pasting. Should be fixed now.

[thompur]

Alertness, Toughness, Skill focus(Basket weaving) unless your DM is particularly sensitive to limburger.;-)

[freebiewitz]

basket weaving? There's actually a prestige class with a prerequisite for weaving. It's called the war weaver basically they can buff an entire party with one spell. It's a little more complicated then that though.

It's in the book of battle if you have that.

[RndmNumGen]

Dragonwrought feat which changes their type to dragon and removes aging penalties (so you could start as a venerable dragonwrought kobold for +3 to all mental stats).

+3? doesn't Venerable only give +1 to each mental stat?

[Urpriest]

+3? doesn't Venerable only give +1 to each mental stat?

Venerable+Old+Middle-aged. Each gives +1.

[Shade Kerrin]

+1, cumulative with the previous +1s for a total of +3

[sambo.]

my $0.02...

lvl 15? so that's six feats total + any bonus for race etc yuh?

Improved Initiative is always a good choice, especially for sorc's who dump dex.

i like Eschew Materials as a feat, never have to worry about being captured & stripped etc.

Spell Focus if there's a school of magic you use a lot.

Skill Focus, if there's a skill you really don't ever want to fail a check (concentration is a good one)

Heighten spell is always nice if you really need to bump up a spell DC.

silent/still spell for sneaky casting.

Arcane Thesis, if you want masses of metamagic cheese.

Quicken Spell: only if you're a metamagic specialist.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You might also check out Solo's guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0), along with "The Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)", both of which should help you. Also, another 'Yea' vote for Rapid Metamagic.

[ericgrau]

Metamagic feats are great for sorcerers due to spontaneous metamagic. Some feats aren't nearly as feasible for wizards b/c they're so situational and you don't want to increase the spell level if you don't need to. Other more generally useful feats like empower are still useful to both classes.

[Boren]

I guess the first question I'd have to ask is what books are you allowed to draw from, or is your Dm, like me, take the 'I'll look at anything and decide on it' path?
I know a few really good books to look through but they are often not allowed
D20 - Ultimate Feats is an awesome book but a lot of DM don't allow it because its D20 not 100% official D&D

[zephiros]

I guess the first question I'd have to ask is what books are you allowed to draw from, or is your Dm, like me, take the 'I'll look at anything and decide on it' path?

Basically this, we usually pull from any 3.5 Sourcebooks, and sometimes from alternate campaign settings (usually Forgotten Realms, but others too). Can't see him saying no without looking at something though. As long as it's nothing too broken.

The question I was going to ask is:

In this sorcerer guide http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872258/Sorcerers_Guide._Your_help_wanted. it mentions that an Incantatrix can "even apply a metamagic effect without adjusting its spell level (assuming she makes the spellcraft check)"

I was wondering if anyone can tell me which Incantatrix ability that's a part of, cause I read through it briefly and didn't see anything of that sort :/

I did see all the other abilities that the guide mentions however, so I'm probably just too tired and missing it.




EDIT: I was also wondering if there are ANY ways, even obscure ones, to circumvent a Sorcerer's spells known limits, even for one additional spell known per level, or to make them know all cantrips like wizards or something.

[sambo.]

EDIT: I was also wondering if there are ANY ways, even obscure ones, to circumvent a Sorcerer's spells known limits, even for one additional spell known per level, or to make them know all cantrips like wizards or something.

spend feats on "Extra Spell" is the obvious one.

[herrhauptmann]

Play as an elf, then use the dark chaos shuffle to trade away all your free martial weapon proficiencies for more feats. (Embrace dark chaos to turn them into vile feats, shun the dark chaos to turn vile feats into normal ones)
Can be done in backstory as early as say level 8, by paying someone to cast both spells on you. (A requirement of the Cindy build)

[Marnath]

Since you (probably) will not go with lvl 15 sorcerer, this is a good choice that saves a feat. As you will be lvl 5 sorcerer lvl [insert level] [insert PrC] you don't lose anything important by giving up your pet cat Maurice.


We don't all optimize to the level that is seen on these boards. Some of us like to play things like straight sorceror, warmage(as WOTC intended, even) or monk.... And thats fine if the other players and DM are on board with it.

[zephiros]

We don't all optimize to the level that is seen on these boards. Some of us like to play things like straight sorceror, warmage(as WOTC intended, even) or monk.... And thats fine if the other players and DM are on board with it.

Yeah, I am intending to play it single-classed or with the Incantatrix maybe, if someone can help me with the above problem related to that. But mostly I'm playing Sorcerer for the sake of Sorcerer. The magic classes get powerful enough without total optimization through multiclassing and PrCs.

[Marnath]

Yeah, I am intending to play it single-classed or with the Incantatrix maybe, if someone can help me with the above problem related to that. But mostly I'm playing Sorcerer for the sake of Sorcerer. The magic classes get powerful enough without total optimization through multiclassing and PrCs.

I don't know how you feel about alternate class features, but my favorite thing is to take Battle Sorceror with a tougher race and use lots of touch range spells. Especially if you can use spells from Races of the Dragon. At highest levels you can be using a buffed warhammer that does 6d6 base damage a hit, and thats just when you're bored of blowing crap up. :smallbiggrin:

[Eronai_Jantig]

Knowstones, they're from Dragon #333.

Cost: Spell Level Squared*1000gp+expensive material components or focus (if any)

To put it simply while you have them they let you cast the spells as if you knew them.

[zephiros]

Battle Sorcerer is a neat flavour but I tend to prefer pure casting. Besides, unless I'm absent-minded or WotC totally screwed up their balancing, shouldn't Battle Sorcerer have some magical drawback? (Not that I really care if it's "lose your familiar" or something like that, I never use familiars anyway).

Knowstones are more the type of thing I mean, investing feats in learning a single new spell just seems a waste of feats that could otherwise touch on metamagic. However, if anyone knows of items like knowstones that could make that knowledge innate...that'd be wonderful. (Yeah, I'm one of the people who prefers not to overly rely on magical items.)

Still wondering from before though, I can't find anywhere the part about Incantatrix being able to cast metamagic without adjusting the spell level if they pass a Spellcraft check...if anyone could point me at the right ability, or tell me that it is not in fact there? (Incantatrix is Player's Guide to Faerun if anyone doesn't know)

So far I'm considering between 3 different races: Whisper Gnome (sacrificing some other abilities to offset Cha Penalty), Kobold, or Illumian (recommended to me, haven't looked at it yet). Human is also always open if I decide none of that works but anyone who'd like to have their say as far as race is welcome to it.

But yeah, the Incantatrix thing is pretty important, cause if that's true, I'm definitely taking that class. :P




EDIT: Our DM is giving us available magical items to compensate for...well jumping in at level 15, as we expected he would. I might take a Cloak of Charisma, but he's willing to let me use an alternate cloak that I thought of. The normal one would grant a +6 to Charisma, the other a +4 to charisma and would give the sorcerer knowledge of all cantrips, as wizards have. My question is are there enough useful / good cantrips to warrant taking the latter, or is the +6 the better option?


Also, are there any options besides dragonwrought kobold (as far as race, not class) for ignoring age penalties, that would still be good for sorcerer?

[Ernir]

It's probably referring to the third level ability, metamagic effect.

Doesn't really work on instantaneous spells, though.

EDIT: Could be Cooperative Metamagic, too.

EDIT 2: Make sure you are looking at the "right" Incantatrix. The 3.5 version is in Player's Guide to Faerûn, the one available online and in (IIRC) Magic of Faerûn is different.

[Greenish]

Battle Sorcerer is a neat flavour but I tend to prefer pure casting. Besides, unless I'm absent-minded or WotC totally screwed up their balancing, shouldn't Battle Sorcerer have some magical drawback?It loses on both spells per day and the ever-precious spells known. It's a downgrade.

That said, I don't know why you're set on straight sorcerer. 19 dead levels, how boring is that?

[Malbordeus]

i'd personally suggest Draconic Sorceror Heratige feats from the CAr, or the fiendish ones from the CM

if your specialising, then reserve feats are usually pretty useful (+1 cl depending on the reserve, pluss a infinite/day supernatural ability aslong as you keep a spellslot open)

Meta Magics, i advise;
rapid if you summon.
empower if you explodinate stuff (or fell drain if your just not right)
Extend is usefull for buffs
and there are some funny random ones in other books.

[thompur]

Arcane Mastery and Spell Penetration for overcoming most level appropriate SR.

[zephiros]

Yeah I was looking at the Player's Guide to Faerun one, which as http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67342 would suggest is the good one...maybe it is the online one? But I don't really know where to look for that.

And I was hoping it would be a little better than casting metamagic on already existing spells or ones that an ally is casting. Although it doesn't specify per se that the "willing allied spellcaster" in cooperative metamagic can't be you. :P

@Greenish, I'm not so much set on straight sorcerer as I don't want to go to the trouble of learning how to multiclass unless I'm going to get something good out of it, I've never multiclassed before and I really don't know how to do it. :/

@ Malbordeus, sounds worth a look, and yeah, I've seen mention of the fell drain one kicking about. :P Sounds like cruelty. Also sounds like fun.

[Greenish]

@Greenish, I'm not so much set on straight sorcerer as I don't want to go to the trouble of learning how to multiclass unless I'm going to get something good out of it, I've never multiclassed before and I really don't know how to do it. :/It's the same as gaining levels. The things you gain with levels are a bit different, is all.

[zephiros]

Hmm, the Draconic and Fey / Fiend ones are certainly interesting.

And @ Greenish, I'm pretty sure of this, but PrC's don't incur the same penalties that multiclassing to base classes sometimes do, right? Like having to stay within however many levels and xp penalties if it's not a favoured class and all that noise?

[Greenish]

And @ Greenish, I'm pretty sure of this, but PrC's don't incur the same penalties that multiclassing to base classes sometimes do, right? Like having to stay within however many levels and xp penalties if it's not a favoured class and all that noise?Yeah, PrCs aren't same as multiclassing between base classes, and never incur multiclassing penalties. As a sorcerer, you'll most likely want just PrCs.

[zephiros]

Certainly agree on that. :P I was pretty sure that PrCs wouldn't have any adverse effects, but I wanted to make sure.

That being said, if anyone wants to recommend something in that regard, I'll be happy to take a look. Whether or not you can self-apply the Incantatrix's Cooperative Metamagic though, I must admit, their metamagic benefits are still substantial, and I'll still be looking at that as a potential class. Although some of the Spellcraft DCs are absurd, and being a Sorcerer my Int won't be terribly high...and I can put a max of 18 ranks into it. Which could probably result in some unfortunately faulty metamagic attempts.

Can anyone clarify Cooperative Metamagic btw? I mean, personally, I know it's not intended for self-use, but I'd classify myself as a willing allied spellcaster, so I don't see that you couldn't use it unless your rule interpretation rivals a dictator. :P

[Marnath]

It loses on both spells per day and the ever-precious spells known. It's a downgrade.

That said, I don't know why you're set on straight sorcerer. 19 dead levels, how boring is that?

I took Fiery burst, Acidic splash and electric jolt. Or whatever they're called. Then I taught myself chain lightning acid fog and...some sort of 6th level fire spell. 6d6 in one of 3 flavors isn't awe inspiring blasting, but at-will makes up for it. Also, that freed me up to take defense/utility spells.

[BeholderSlayer]

Certainly agree on that. :P I was pretty sure that PrCs wouldn't have any adverse effects, but I wanted to make sure.

That being said, if anyone wants to recommend something in that regard, I'll be happy to take a look. Whether or not you can self-apply the Incantatrix's Cooperative Metamagic though, I must admit, their metamagic benefits are still substantial, and I'll still be looking at that as a potential class. Although some of the Spellcraft DCs are absurd, and being a Sorcerer my Int won't be terribly high...and I can put a max of 18 ranks into it. Which could probably result in some unfortunately faulty metamagic attempts.

Can anyone clarify Cooperative Metamagic btw? I mean, personally, I know it's not intended for self-use, but I'd classify myself as a willing allied spellcaster, so I don't see that you couldn't use it unless your rule interpretation rivals a dictator. :P

Magical enhancement bonus item to Spellcraft item, could pick up a +15 for 22.5k, or +20 for 40k. The +15 shouldn't be too bad on your WBL. With 18 ranks and the 15 you're at +33 before INT. Add in a Masterwork Spellcraft tool for another +2, that's 35.

Use Cooperative Metamagic/Metamagic Trigger in conjunction with Persistent Spell and you can persist 1st 2nd, and 3rd level spells by taking 10 when they are cast in the morning. You may use Metamagic Trigger on your own spells by casting the spell, and then applying the ability. Using this, you can buff to the teeth in the morning.

For lower level spells you want to cast on everyone, take Chain spell as well. Chained Persistent spells are an amazing way to conserve spell slots while getting ready for a day of adventuring.

Be a Dragonwrought Kobold, and toss in some Practical Metamagic (Persistent Spell) goodness and you can persist up to 4th level spells. Persistent Greater Mirror Image, anybody?

Personally I prefer using buffs over utilizing metamagic feats for blasting/damage. I find it much more powerful and effective, though an Incantrix can do some great things in the blasting area.

EDIT: I like using these abilities to make things like Magic Circle Against Evil/Good, Freedom of Movement, Greater Mirror Image, Arcane Sight, and Haste last all day long. Cheesy? Maybe. :smallamused:

[zephiros]

Use Cooperative Metamagic/Metamagic Trigger in conjunction with Persistent Spell and you can persist 1st 2nd, and 3rd level spells by taking 10 when they are cast in the morning. You may use Metamagic Trigger on your own spells by casting the spell, and then applying the ability. Using this, you can buff to the teeth in the morning.

For lower level spells you want to cast on everyone, take Chain spell as well. Chained Persistent spells are an amazing way to conserve spell slots while getting ready for a day of adventuring.


Oh jeez, so many questions. I understand the part about Spellcraft boosting items, about the metamagic feats in general, and about being a Dragonwrought Kobold. You mentioned some unfamiliar metamagic but that I can research.

That would be the part that's confusing me. If I cast the spells in the morning, doesn't that use up the spell slot for it? I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean by casting in the morning to buff, but I'm probably just stupid / missing something. Unless you mean applying metamagic to all-day or long-duration buff spells? I'm sorry it just confused me a bit.

[dextercorvia]

Oh jeez, so many questions. I understand the part about Spellcraft boosting items, about the metamagic feats in general, and about being a Dragonwrought Kobold. You mentioned some unfamiliar metamagic but that I can research.

That would be the part that's confusing me. If I cast the spells in the morning, doesn't that use up the spell slot for it? I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean by casting in the morning to buff, but I'm probably just stupid / missing something. Unless you mean applying metamagic to all-day or long-duration buff spells? I'm sorry it just confused me a bit.

Persistent spell is a +6 level metamagic that makes spells last for 24 hours. They have to be fixed ranged, though.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If you cast them and persist them in the morning, then you don't need to spend your most important in-combat resource - actions - to cast them in combat. Yes you still expend the spell slots, but you were going to anyhow so that's no additional cost. The actions you save are the real benefit.

[BladeofOblivion]

Don't forget the obligatory mention of a dip in Sand Shaper for a bunch of extra spells known.

[BeholderSlayer]

Persistent spell is a +6 level metamagic that makes spells last for 24 hours. They have to be fixed ranged, though.
True, sometimes I forget about the fixed range portion of the feat because, well, my group ignores it.

Don't forget the obligatory mention of a dip in Sand Shaper for a bunch of extra spells known.
+1

[zephiros]

True, sometimes I forget about the fixed range portion of the feat because, well, my group ignores it.

Mine probably would as well.

I'll look at sand shaper, but I still don't understand how casting a spell beforehand applies metamagic to it later? Unless each copy of the same spell has the metamagic applied to it for that day, but I didn't think that was the case. :/

[BladeofOblivion]

I'll look at sand shaper, but I still don't understand how casting a spell beforehand applies metamagic to it later? Unless each copy of the same spell has the metamagic applied to it for that day, but I didn't think that was the case. :/

No, the Sand Shaper is a powerful tool for Sorcerer Optimization because it was designed for Wizards, but sorcerers can make the cut. As a Wizard PrC, they see nothing wrong with giving them a ridiculous number of free spells known. Of course, it is unwise to lose more than one Caster Level through this PrC. The lost CL at first level is acceptable, however, due to the +1 CL you get when in a desert or CARRYING AROUND A BUCKET OF SAND. The actual class abilities aren't too shabby either.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Mine probably would as well.

I'll look at sand shaper, but I still don't understand how casting a spell beforehand applies metamagic to it later? Unless each copy of the same spell has the metamagic applied to it for that day, but I didn't think that was the case. :/

It doesn't. The idea is to persist your buffs at the beginning of the day so that way they stay with you. Incantatrix lets you do that after you've cast it (during its normal duration) and with a spellcraft check to boot which makes it cheaper than casting it from a higher level spell slot. This saves you high level spell slots and actions in combat, which is good.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'll look at sand shaper, but I still don't understand how casting a spell beforehand applies metamagic to it later? Unless each copy of the same spell has the metamagic applied to it for that day, but I didn't think that was the case. :/

Here's how it works:
1. Cast the spell.
2. After the spell is in place, now you can use Metamagic Trigger to apply a metamagic with your spellcraft check.

alternatively, direct your ally cleric/druid to cast a spell after preparing them in the morning. As they cast the spell, you use Cooperative Metamagic to apply a metamagic feat you know (persist) to their spell.

[Malbordeus]

cruelty tastes like honey roasted chicken :)

metamagicy-wise, dont know much about incarnium, but you can take metamagic school focus to cut the spell level adjustment, and also Arcane Thesis? not sure if that last one works for Sorcs though.

theres a couple of +0 spell level adjustment metas out there, not sure how good they are, but most are handy.

also, lesser Rods of metamagic are pretty cheap, an dreally useful. (I recomend feiry or searing spell if you go for Fire element types, or Consecrate or Desecrate spell mm's, Elemental Sub is also good if you come across something imune to your magics.) extend comes in handy a lot too.

[zephiros]

I've examined sand shaper a little, it looks easily worth the dip, I'm wondering if there's any other classes that provide so many spells from a single level dip?

Also, thanks for the explanation, somehow I missed that he was talking about buffs earlier. :/ I need to sleep more.

[DementedFellow]

For those who want to look at Sandshaper, also look at Snowcasting in Frostburn. At first these two items don't have any overlap. However for that bucket of sand you carry around for the increase in caster level you can also use the Sand Shape ability to create snow for an easily passable DC check. So in essence you get a +2 CL for a spell, with not much effort involved. And it's easier carrying around sand than snow. Also snowcasting also lets you add the Cold descriptor which means you can apply more metamagics to the spell.

[zephiros]

Is there a feat / something like a feat to gain Speak Language as a class skill? Just wondering if there's a way to make it class.

[Marnath]

Is there a feat / something like a feat to gain Speak Language as a class skill? Just wondering if there's a way to make it class.

Brass Dragon Heritage feat?

[Jornophelanthas]

There's another prestige class that may be helpful to you if you want more spells known as a Sorcerer: the Wild Soul (CM).

Over the course of 10 levels, you gain 1 additional spells known at every spell level. Additionally, you gain a spell-like ability to summon fey creatures a number of times per day, which also gives you a number of buffs for the duration of the fey ally's presence. However, you do lose 1 level of spell progression.