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View Full Version : Gaining level 4 spells in E6



Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 11:44 AM
So, an interesting situation arises. Im playing E6, and I need a way to pick up a 4th level spell slot as a wizard 6. Spell point variation is in effect, and I have ridiculous amounts of spell points and 4th level spells actually scribed into my book, but I still need the slot to prepare the spell in.

Expanded Caster Stamina is one way, but it would require I have CL 8. I've got 6, and craft magic tattoo is a spell I know, but I still need a way to buff it by one. Cheaply or free.

I do have four available feat slots though.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-05, 11:56 AM
The Spellgifted trait boosts your CL in one school by +1 but lowers it in all others. Reserve feats also boost your CL in one subtype.

Sanctum Spell cheese probably works.

true_shinken
2010-09-05, 12:01 PM
This is kind of missing the point of E6, IMHO.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 12:10 PM
The Spellgifted trait boosts your CL in one school by +1 but lowers it in all others. Reserve feats also boost your CL in one subtype.

Sanctum Spell cheese probably works.

Either of those would work pretty well. Sanctum Spell is great for boosting spell level, but it does nothing for caster level. Sure, I could pump my highest spell level, but that only helps if I can find a feat that grants me an additional spell slot(Im sure one has to exist).

Expanded caster stamina gives slots, but it's limited to A. highest spell level you already know(easy to solve), and B. half your CL. I don't know if this is highest CL for any spell/school period or not. It doesn't say, and presumably they didn't consider the case of where CLs vary by spell/school.

True_shinken, E6 is not intended to be a hard cap on power. It simply slows down the rate of progression. After all, they did include PrCs such as archmage that you can pick up via feats.

Erom
2010-09-05, 12:21 PM
This is kind of missing the point of E6, IMHO.
I disagree - it makes 4th level spell fairly epic when you have to go out of your way to build your character specifically to get one or two of them. It means they exist but are rare and noteworthy and most casters don't have them, which works pretty well.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 12:26 PM
Well, there's the standard way of getting level 4 spells in E6, too. Picking them up one at a time via feat.

That solves the problem for people only interested in a specific level 4 spell, but if you want to go around collecting them, it's remarkably painful featwise. Not that it isn't already painful to find them in the E6 world.

balistafreak
2010-09-05, 12:39 PM
Although this isn't relevant to the OP's specific case (the character is already being played) note that a cheese-free* way to get 4th level spells in E6 is to play an Artificer, who can scribe spells of +2 CL his own or something like that - enough to get another spell level. A CL 3 Fireball is even given as a specific example.

*Disclaimer: Whether or not the very concept of an Artificer is cheese is up for debate. :smalltongue:

PId6
2010-09-05, 12:39 PM
Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell + Sanctum Spell + Extra Slot. There you go.

Illumian cheese also works.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 12:43 PM
Although this isn't relevant to the OP's specific case (the character is already being played) note that a cheese-free* way to get 4th level spells in E6 is to play an Artificer, who can scribe spells of +2 CL his own or something like that - enough to get another spell level. A CL 3 Fireball is even given as a specific example.

*Disclaimer: Whether or not the very concept of an Artificer is cheese is up for debate. :smalltongue:

In E6, artificers are definitely the best way to get access to 4th level spells. If you're a wizzie looking to expand your spellbook, finding a local artificer is probably your best bet.

Yeah, I suppose that works. Is heighten necessary, though? Sanctum counts as one higher, and versatile allows you to cast one higher. Therefore, you can cast a fifth level spell, technically. I believe that qualifies for extra slot.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-05, 12:46 PM
Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell + Sanctum Spell + Extra Slot. There you go.

Illumian cheese also works.

Versatile Spellcaster also works for any Arcane casting class that has spontaneous access to their entire spell list, such as the Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer.

Edit: Wait... how do you qualify for Versatile Spellcaster as a Wizard? An Earth Sense+Earth Spell+Heighten Spell+Sanctum Spell+Extra Spell could do it, though....

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 12:48 PM
You'd have to take that feat that lets you spont cast from one slot. Cant recall the name of it, but Ive used it before.

Doable, but incredibly feat painful.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-05, 12:49 PM
You'd have to take that feat that lets you spont cast from one slot. Cant recall the name of it, but Ive used it before.

Doable, but incredibly feat painful.
Ah, Spell Mastery + Signature Spell, gotcha.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-05, 12:50 PM
Would the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage work?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 12:54 PM
Elf, unfortunately. Originally, sources were quite restricted, but they've opened up to essentially everything since then.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-05, 12:59 PM
Elf, unfortunately. Originally, sources were quite restricted, but they've opened up to essentially everything since then.
Let's see... the Reserve feats have been mentioned, I think - you mentioned that you have Craft Magic Tattoo; Invisible Needle could boost your caster level for [Force] spells by one more, which qualifies you for Expanded Caster Stamina, which in turn qualifies you for some of the other reserve feats that require you have higher-level spell-casting available (such as Summon Elemental or Minor Shapeshift) to expand the schools/descriptors you can use that 4th level spell slot with.

PId6
2010-09-05, 01:00 PM
Yeah, I suppose that works. Is heighten necessary, though? Sanctum counts as one higher, and versatile allows you to cast one higher. Therefore, you can cast a fifth level spell, technically. I believe that qualifies for extra slot.
Actually, you're right, you don't need it since you have 4th level spells in your spellbook. So just Versatile + Sanctum then.


Edit: Wait... how do you qualify for Versatile Spellcaster as a Wizard? An Earth Sense+Earth Spell+Heighten Spell+Sanctum Spell+Extra Spell could do it, though....
Spontaneous Divination.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 01:26 PM
Going to need Sanctum Spell anyhow. DM ruled that spell points are unaffected by anything but spell level, to avoid various methods of boosting spell points. It's a reasonable ruling, since it's unspecified in UA, and thus, sanctum spell actually makes spells cost less in terms of spell points. It gives me a significant boost in endurance.

Fiery Burst is looking like another good option. I like CL boosts for their own sake, too, so that quickly lets me pick up 4th level fire spells, one of which I know, so I can cast at CL 8. Expanded Spell Knowledge, here I come, as my third feat. Fiery Burst is again good for it's own sake, too. Just in case I ever do run dry. Reserve feats are very powerful with spell points, since you avoid the balancing factor of keeping a spell in reserve.

That's probably as efficient as it's going to get, only three feats, and significant synergy. Optimizing within E6 is pretty fun, it's a pretty novel way to approach it.

Zeful
2010-09-05, 01:28 PM
Versatile Spellcaster also works for any Arcane casting class that has spontaneous access to their entire spell list, such as the Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer.And if you can simultaneously buff your CL to be able to cast the spell to begin with.

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question[.]"
From the Magic Overview section on Caster Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel)

So you could pump all your spell slots into making a ninth level spell slot with Versatile Spellcaster, but until your Caster Level is actually high enough to grant ninth level spell casting, the spell slot is unavailable for use.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-05, 01:42 PM
Versatile Spellcaster + Spontaneous Divination ACF, that lets you spontaneously cast 4th level divination spells. Take the E6 capstone feat Expanded Casting and now you have a 4th level spell slot.
Edit: With spellpoints, you can probably just get the Spontaneous Divination ACF and it will let you use your spellpoints to cast any divination you know as though you had all of them prepared, so you won't even need Versatile Spellcaster as long as you know a 4th+ level divination spell.

A Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage casts spells as a 9th level Wizard. That means he can learn and cast 5th level spells in E6. He also gets +4 BAB and 6d8+12 base HP not even counting Con bonus, plus proficiency in two martial weapons, Weapon Focus in one of them, Scribe Scroll, and Eschew Materials all for free.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-05, 01:52 PM
And if you can simultaneously buff your CL to be able to cast the spell to begin with.
That's doable, though, without too much work - especially if you've got the feats to spend on it. As the OP in this case has access to Create Magic Tattoo, only one more boost in Caster Level is needed for 4th level spells:

Acidic Splatter for Acid spells; Aquatic Breath or Drowning Glance for Water spells; Blade of Force or Invisible Needle for Force spells; Born Aloft, Hurricane Breath, or Wind-Guided Arrows for Air spells; Clap of Thunder for Sonic spells; Clutch of Earth for Earth spells; Dimensional Jaunt for Teleportation spells (although the caster will need to pull the trick off on a different spell before qualifying - Dimensional Jaunt requires 4th level spellcasting to qualify); Dimensional Reach or Summon Elemental for Summoning spells (although the caster will need to pull the trick off on a different spell before qualifying - Summon Elemental requires 4th level spellcasting to qualify); Face Changer for Glamer spells (a decent choice for the Beguiler); Fiery Burst for Fire spells; Magic Disruption or Mystic Backlash for Abjuration spells; Magic Sensitive for Divination spells; Minor Shapeshift for Polymorph spells (although the caster will need to pull the trick off on a different spell before qualifying; Minor Shapeshift requires 4th level spellcasting); Shadow Veil for Darkness spells; Sickening Grasp for Necromancy spells (really, really good choice for the Dread Necromancer...); Storm Bolt for Electricity spells; Sunlight Eyes for Light spells; Touch of Distraction for Enchantment spells (a decent choice for the Beguiler!); Winter's Blast for Cold spells.


A Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage casts spells as a 9th level Wizard. That means he can learn and cast 5th level spells in E6. He also gets +4 BAB and 6d8+12 base HP not even counting Con bonus, plus proficiency in two martial weapons, Weapon Focus in one of them, Scribe Scroll, and Eschew Materials all for free.Did you remember the permanent hit point loss involved with both the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and it's prerequisite, the Draconic Rite of Passage?

Also, are you remembering the hit point loss involved in the DM hitting you over the head with a nice, hefty hardback book or ten?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 02:06 PM
Hp total is a serious issue for casters in E6. Being capped at 6 hd limits the effect of even a solid con bonus, and while you have a number of defensive options, at some point, someone will hit you with something. I strongly recommend the +2 con feat AND improved toughness for mitigating this. Unfortunately, after you've gotten them, feat based options for getting more hp dwindle.

I recalled a small hiccup with the CL boosting method. Create Magic Tattoo only gives the option of +1 CL at CL 13+. For boosting to CL 8, this poses a bit of a chicken & the egg problem.

So, the issue becomes, how do I get another +1 CL to a fire(conjuration) spell that I know, but can't cast yet. Arcane thesis requires you be able to cast it, and I presume spell thematics does the same.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-05, 02:28 PM
Hp total is a serious issue for casters in E6. Being capped at 6 hd limits the effect of even a solid con bonus, and while you have a number of defensive options, at some point, someone will hit you with something. I strongly recommend the +2 con feat AND improved toughness for mitigating this. Unfortunately, after you've gotten them, feat based options for getting more hp dwindle.

I recalled a small hiccup with the CL boosting method. Create Magic Tattoo only gives the option of +1 CL at CL 13+. For boosting to CL 8, this poses a bit of a chicken & the egg problem.

So, the issue becomes, how do I get another +1 CL to a fire(conjuration) spell that I know, but can't cast yet. Arcane thesis requires you be able to cast it, and I presume spell thematics does the same.

Let's see.... once you have a 4th level spell slot, you only need a caster level of 7 to cast an arbitrary 4th level spell in it. So you need +2 caster level for *something*, Expanded Caster Stamina based on that, and then +1 caster level for the specific spell you want - and you need to do it in 4 feats or less.

OK.

1) Find a 4th Abjuration spell (1 spell)
2) Pick up Mystic Backlash and Magic Disruption (both give an explicitly-stacking Competence boost when you cast Abjuration spells; +1 each): 2 feats
3) Pick up Expanded Caster Stamina (Which you now qualify for, as you have a caster level of 8 for Abjuration) (that's one feat, I think)
4) Pick up Fiery Burst (1 more feat)

There you go: You have a 4th level spell slot, and a caster level of 7 for Fire spells.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 03:48 PM
Still need Sanctum Spell in there for the ability to cast 4th level spells for Ex. Caster Stamina, but that leaves me casting a level 4 spell, set up to take fiery burst for my next feat, completing the chain.

And having CL 8 for abjuration spells is never a bad thing.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-05, 04:08 PM
Still need Sanctum Spell in there for the ability to cast 4th level spells for Ex. Caster Stamina, but that leaves me casting a level 4 spell, set up to take fiery burst for my next feat, completing the chain.

And having CL 8 for abjuration spells is never a bad thing.
Ah, okay. Oh yes, and you would need to pick a 4th level Abjuration to tide you over until the next feat - does Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeofInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) sound fun in E6 where almost nobody has access to spells above 3rd level?

Oh yes, and once you've got that set up, the other reserve feats each get you a new class of spells you can use, which makes them quite handy.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 04:16 PM
Ah, okay. Oh yes, and you would need to pick a 4th level Abjuration to tide you over until the next feat - does Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeofInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) sound fun in E6 where almost nobody has access to spells above 3rd level?

Oh yes, and once you've got that set up, the other reserve feats each get you a new class of spells you can use, which makes them quite handy.

It sounds impressively powerful. Fortunately, I still have two spells left to pick.

The thought of taking a number of reserve feats had already crossed my mind. It also reduces my reliance on spell points, and basically gives me all the highlights of a warlock. Seems like a good deal all round.

0Megabyte
2010-09-05, 05:00 PM
I don't wish to be a party-pooper, so go ahead and play E6 however you want, but I do believe the original purpose was to eliminate the existence of all those spells nearly entirely.

That is, in the very original E6 thread at ENworld (which I have bookmarked, of course), they did create a few "necessary" 4th level spells as feats, and figured some of the damage-dealing types of spells were okay as 1/day feats.

Still, though, if I were the DM, I'd control and limit access to any spells over 3rd level. Even if you went through the hoops, you might get a 4th level slot for metamagic, but you wouldn't get the spells because spells over 3rd level either don't exist or can't be accessed that way.

If something like a lesser globe of invulnerability even existed, it wouldn't be something you could just choose. Would it even exist in any form? I'm not so sure.

But this is just the perspective of a DM who'd want to play E6, as opposed to the player perspective I've seen here. :smallbiggrin:

Cadian 9th
2010-09-07, 02:30 AM
An interesting method around this is to buy scrolls off the Trapsmith PrC (Dungeonscape) Spell list. He gets Dispel Magic, +4 int and Dex as 1st level spells, then Lesser Globe of Invunerability as a 2nd level spell, along with stoneskin, then also Walll of stone as a 3rd level arcane spell.

Of course there is the possibility of playing the archivist.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-07, 08:13 AM
I don't wish to be a party-pooper, so go ahead and play E6 however you want, but I do believe the original purpose was to eliminate the existence of all those spells nearly entirely.

That is, in the very original E6 thread at ENworld (which I have bookmarked, of course), they did create a few "necessary" 4th level spells as feats, and figured some of the damage-dealing types of spells were okay as 1/day feats.

Oddly enough, the spell Im aiming at is Orb of Fire. They have an orb as such a feat, but it's acid. Slightly less desirable. No x/day limit on it, though.

Also of note is the phrase “6th level plus many feats is clearly more powerful than 6th level. Thus, it won’t be game-breaking to allow feat chains that bring characters from 6th level to 8th level, although this progression should be quite slow.”

This is further supported by the addition of feats that essentially support the above philosophy. So, getting 4th level spells eventually in E6 is reasonable. Getting say, 9th level spells is likely not.


Still, though, if I were the DM, I'd control and limit access to any spells over 3rd level. Even if you went through the hoops, you might get a 4th level slot for metamagic, but you wouldn't get the spells because spells over 3rd level either don't exist or can't be accessed that way.

Well, finding spells to add to your spellbook would be difficult, no doubt. Comparatively few casters would have such things. Thankfully, there are feat based ways to solve that as well.


If something like a lesser globe of invulnerability even existed, it wouldn't be something you could just choose. Would it even exist in any form? I'm not so sure.

Why not? It's pretty potent, but there are plenty of ways in E6 to deal with it. Most of the ways of making yourself hard to dispel don't exist in E6. Also, in terms of spell points, using 4th level spells is fairly painful. If using slot based casting, presumably your fourth level slots would be a very limited resource. At a minimum, it takes a feat for each one, even after opening up access to them(itself feat intensive).

I suspect that this is appropriate, as melee will eventually gain damage and options from feats as well, therefore, slowly widening 4th level slot access is not imbalanced.

Im curious as to how accessible 5th level slots are, though. It would require pretty extensive caster level boosting. Might be possible via wild mage, but otherwise, I don't see it happening without an orange ioun stone or CMT, both of which require a significant enough caster level(12&13 respectively) that you generally can't create them in the first place.

PId6
2010-09-08, 01:21 PM
Im curious as to how accessible 5th level slots are, though. It would require pretty extensive caster level boosting. Might be possible via wild mage, but otherwise, I don't see it happening without an orange ioun stone or CMT, both of which require a significant enough caster level(12&13 respectively) that you generally can't create them in the first place.
You can just take Extra Slot a few times until you get 9th level slots. With Sanctum + Earth Spell, you can take Extra Slot for a higher slot level each time you take it, all the way up to 9th. You then use something like Persistent Consumptive Field or Circle Magic to get your CL high enough to cast those spells.