Posters and... Oracle?

[Ancalagon]

The new posters (see the news) raise some question: On the evil-side-poster... why is the Oracle on the evil side and... even as big, full coloured character at that? If you look at the other full-coloured characters... it's strange.

That guy seems to be more important than it seemed. Or is he?

[One Skunk Todd]

Also notice the Snarl seems to span both posters. Hmmm.....

And Miko on the good side.

[Ancalagon]

Well, given the Snarl is the "big topic above all" and neither good nor evil, it makes sense.

But let's discuss the Oracle for three, four posts before derailing the thread, can we, please? ;)

[The Giant]

Don't read too much into it. He's the most important non-Good character that is the same size as Belkar, thus keeping the composition of the poster balanced. The fact that he also represents a group that is not associated with either Xykon or the Linear Guild helps.

Really, it was down to either him or the black dragon mother for that top slot, and the dragon is too big and would have blended in with the :mitd: (and is already dead).

[SPoD]

I see a definite mirroring in the composition between the foreground figures in the left and right sides. Roy and Xykon are in the same position, Elan and Nale are in the same position, Haley and Sabine are in the same position, Durkon and Redcloak (both clerics) are in the same position, V and the Monster in the Darkness (both the most powerful). So it makes sense that Belkar and the Oracle are in the same position, both being snarky short characters having a specific antagonism towards each other.

The only place it breaks down is with Thog, who is sort of shoved in behind Nale.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the Giant, it would seem. Never mind.

[Crisis21]

I can see a few reasons why the Oracle is on the Evil side:

The oracle is a kobold, a traditionally Evil race. The oracle serves Tiamat, an Evil goddess.

As for why the oracle is placed in equal importance with Team Evil and the Linear Guild despite not working with them (and even actively avoiding Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)), the oracle keeps coming back into the plot. Not only that, but the oracle is one of the forces driving the plot as characters come to him for advice related to the plot.

Besides, from what I can tell, the poster is divided along Protagonist/Antagonist lines rather than strict Good/Evil alignment lines. The oracle is pretty antagonistic by nature despite being a non-combatant. And lest we forget, the oracle did point the ancient black dragon at Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html). Possibly for free too (I have zero proof of this beyond the fact that the oracle serves Tiamat and the implications that he is obligated to provide oracle services to chromatic dragons whether or not they have money to pay).

Edit: ninja'd by the Giant. Oh well.

Edit the second: I like how the lawyers are divided among both sides of the poster.

Also, does anyone else think the red paladin in the lower left (appearing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) in Xykon's crystal ball) looks like Elan's former employer from 'On the Origin of PCs'?

I also like how Thor's lightning bolt looks like its directly charging Durkon's hammer.

[SPoD]

Oh, I didn't even notice that you asked why the Oracle was on the evil side. That seems obvious; what has he ever done that was positive? On his best day, he's Neutral, providing cryptic often-misunderstood answers for cash when he could easily be more clear if it suited him. On his worst day, he serves an evil goddess helping evil dragons do evil stuff.

Note that Therkla and Right-Eye are both on the Bad Guys poster, and they were both pretty Neutral, not Evil. Same goes for Mr. Jones, the lawyer, and Yokyok (who was actually Good). It's definitely sorted by team, not alignment.

[Crisis21]

I just noticed: The wight in the poster does not have shoes on. That means he isn't Tsukiko's special wight (easily identified by the fact that he wears shoes that formerly belonged to Thahn).

[Hann]

I've been trying to think of characters NOT on the poster, and it's pretty hard!

The only ones I can think of are the Orc natives and Giggles, god of slapstick.

[Crisis21]

I've been trying to think of characters NOT on the poster, and it's pretty hard!

The only ones I can think of are the Orc natives and Giggles, god of slapstick.

There's a few Teevo'd on Xykon's crystal ball. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) Note: one of the characters being Teevo'd is in the poster! Spoilers on who I think it is below.

The red paladin in the above comic, and in the lower left of the poster, looks like Elan's former employer from 'On the Origin of PCs'.

[JoeSkull]

Im more curios about why the Giant decided on using the older versions of the chars. Redcloak has his eye, and V and Haley have their old hair, whereas Elan has his new clothes.

[Kurald Galain]

I see a definite mirroring in the composition between the foreground figures in the left and right sides. Roy and Xykon are in the same position, Elan and Nale are in the same position,

Then I would say :vaarsuvius: and :redcloak: in the same position, which makes sense given they're both powerful casters and the primary advisor in their groups.

Then we get :durkon: vs :sabine: or holy man vs devil girl, as well as :haley: vs :thog:, which seems to make less sense but looks cool, and at the top we have Mr. Scruffy vs. the MITD, and I suppose they're both equally intelligent and initiative-taking.

Also, this makes an awesome desktop background. Thanks, Giant!

[Crisis21]

Im more curios about why the Giant decided on using the older versions of the chars. Redcloak has his eye, and V and Haley have their old hair, whereas Elan has his new clothes.

I bet it's to minimize spoilers. So that someone who hasn't read the comic, sees the poster, and then decides to start reading doesn't suddenly say 'why does Redcloak have two eyes? When does he lose one?'

As for Elan's outfit, changes of clothes can occur for any reason. To date, Durkon is the only Order of the Stick character I have never seen wearing another outfit in the main comic (he had a different outfit in one of the prequel books though). Even if we discount the time he had to wear a blue cloak and stilts, Belkar had a temporary outfit change (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) in one comic (even if it was for purely comedic emphasis).

Notice that Tarquin's helmet is on so that anyone who is looking at the poster without having read the comic cannot tell that he is related to Elan.

[DwarvenExodus]

I've been trying to think of characters NOT on the poster, and it's pretty hard!

The only ones I can think of are the Orc natives and Giggles, god of slapstick.

And those elven insurgents, which played a much more important role than many of the other characters on the poster.

[Crisis21]

Then I would say :vaarsuvius: and :redcloak: in the same position, which makes sense given they're both powerful casters and the primary advisor in their groups.

Then we get :durkon: vs :sabine: or holy man vs devil girl, as well as :haley: vs :thog:, which seems to make less sense but looks cool, and at the top we have Mr. Scruffy vs. the MITD, and I suppose they're both equally intelligent and initiative-taking.

Also, this makes an awesome desktop background. Thanks, Giant!
Personally, I see :elan: and :haley: being opposite :nale:, :thog:, and :sabine:

[RMS Oceanic]

There's one detail about the posters I definately like, apart from the Snarl spanning both pages.

On Team Good's poster, Thor is zapping down some lightning to empower Durkon's Hammer, and help him on this quest. On Team Evil's poster, the Dark One is not doing anything, just letting Redcloak get on with whatever he's supposed to be doing.

I'm probably reading too deeply into it, but it would be interesting if this was actually significant regarding Redcloak and the Dark One's relationship.

[Ted The Bug]

Not that it would surprise anyone, but Tarquin and Malack are both on the other side.

[Gift Jeraff]

Note that Therkla and Right-Eye are both on the Bad Guys poster, and they were both pretty Neutral, not Evil.
I also wonder if there's any symbolism between Eugene & Therkla being roughly parallel and Miko & Right-Eye being roughly parallel. That is, Eugene was Good while alive but seems to be shifting away and Therkla was Evil most of her life but shifted toward Neutrality at the end.
Similarly (SoD spoilers)Miko was Good most of her life but shifted away, and hindered the forces of Good all the while, while Right-Eye was Evil for most of his life but shifted away, and tried to hinder Xykon and seemingly denounced the Dark One.

[Dusk Eclipse]

just a quick thing that I loved about the poster just below the MitD there it is his dragon plushy!!! a great detail Giant

[Allan Surgite]

I like the little detail of the lawyers being on opposite sides (they're below the direct centre of the poster).

[Darth Hunterix]

To date, Durkon is the only Order of the Stick character I have never seen wearing another outfit in the main comic (he had a different outfit in one of the prequel books though).

Are you sure?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

[Crisis21]

Are you sure?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

Ha! I'd forgotten that panel! It may be just a flashback, but it counts darn it! Yep, every member of the Order has been shown wearing more than one outfit for the duration of the comic.

:smallbiggrin:

[Elfey]

Don't read too much into it. He's the most important non-Good character that is the same size as Belkar, thus keeping the composition of the poster balanced. The fact that he also represents a group that is not associated with either Xykon or the Linear Guild helps.

Really, it was down to either him or the black dragon mother for that top slot, and the dragon is too big and would have blended in with the :mitd: (and is already dead).

That's a perfectly reasonably answer that gives an artistic reason raising at over plot. We can't have that. Death of the Author and all that. I proclaim the Oracle is suppose to be big bad controlling events in such a way that by the final gate Dragon-kind will control the gates as his honorary degree lets him channel both arcane and divine magic.

Also, we must start talking about the snarl and how its on both sides. Does that mean he's above good and evil, a force of nature, or was a bad guy whose turned back? Will the Snarl help defeat Xykon?

And finally, I reject Right-Eye as a bad guy and Miko as a good guy.

[DwarvenExodus]

And finally, I reject Right-Eye as a bad guy

Seconded, along with redcloak.

[Stmr5000]

Seconded, along with redcloak.

Right Eye could be considered good. Redcloak cannot.

[RMS Oceanic]

Seconded, along with redcloak.

The Dark One's stated motives are noble, but his methods are definately evil, essentially holding a +10 Divinebane Gun to the Pantheons' head until his demands are met. Those who go along with this plan are still evil, because some means can never be justified by the ends. True, Right-Eye abandoned the plan, but he never really worked for the greater good until the very end of his life, and that usually isn't enough to atone.


and Miko as a good guy.

Remember, she did fight Redcloak valiantly and nearly killed him. All her horribly misguided actions were in opposition to Xykon (and the Order, but that's another story) and protecting the gate from his clutches. Her priorities and assumptions are horribly screwed up, but she still believed in good. Soon Kim himself judged that she had done "adequately".

[Elfey]

The Dark One's stated motives are noble, but his methods are definately evil, essentially holding a +10 Divinebane Gun to the Pantheons' head until his demands are met. Those who go along with this plan are still evil, because some means can never be justified by the ends. True, Right-Eye abandoned the plan, but he never really worked for the greater good until the very end of his life, and that usually isn't enough to atone.

Right-eye rejected the plan long before Redcloak and realized it was wrong and foolish. He instead raised a village and a family, building a community simply focused on living with his neighbors. Right-Eye, after being forced back into Team Evil's services planned on how to take down Xykon. Right-Eye was rejecting the plan for years and producing a workable plan on living in peace with the neighbors. Left-Eye's city is in many ways a twisted version of his Brother's plan which stands a far better chance of working than the Dark-One's.



Remember, she did fight Redcloak valiantly and nearly killed him. All her horribly misguided actions were in opposition to Xykon (and the Order, but that's another story) and protecting the gate from his clutches. Her priorities and assumptions are horribly screwed up, but she still believed in good. Soon Kim himself judged that she had done "adequately".

She believed in her own Ego as a chosen one who gave no thought to actual morality but only to what scanned good or evil.

We know in OoTS that character alignment is more than what the Gods say you are. For the Goblins, that's what this is about and why I find Miko a perfect example. She knows no mercy and is much like those of the Guard who tried to murder Right-Eye as a child, hiding behind their gods to justify such an evil act. (Arguing here the deconstruction of D&D morality that the OoTS is about rather than the listed morality).

[DreadArchon]

Is that Fruit Pie I see?
Awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Kondziu]

I wonder how did the Cleric of Loki end up on the good side.

[Kobold-Bard]

I wonder how did the Cleric of Loki end up on the good side.

I asked that too. Probably because he killed Blind Pete, who sold out Hayley & Celia, putting them in mortal danger. Both sides need some neutral guys.

Also Loki isn't on the poster at all.

[Crisis21]

Also Loki isn't on the poster at all.
That's probably because trying to fit in more Gods than Thor or The Dark One would be rather excessive.

[Kish]

I wonder how did the Cleric of Loki end up on the good side.
Everything he did helped the Order. Is he good-aligned? Almost certainly not. Belkar and Vaarsuvius are on the left side, though, and Yokyok is on the right.

[KenderWizard]

My own theory based on reading too much into it is that Thog isn't opposed by anyone on the protagonist side because he's going to decide Elan is nicer than Nale and turn on Nale. :smallsmile:

It's a really awesome poster, I love it! Even though I like a lot of the changes the characters went through artistically (especially Vaarsuvius's hair), I kinda like that the poster is the older versions. Makes it look like Classic OOTS.

[mootoall]

Also, evidently the flumphs are on Team Good?

[Kobold-Bard]

Also, evidently the flumphs are on Team Good?

Only Good monsters in the original Monster Manual.
They sacrifice their health for the safety of others, they're as Good as Solars.

[TheBlackShadow]

To me it seems more an issue of conflict rather than alignment per se. As far as we know so far, the Oracle isn't actually evil, he's just there as the counterpart of Belkar Bitterleaf. Rather than a moral or ethical divide, this seems more like the Linear Guild's modus operandi taken to the extreme. The moralistic idea seems to break down with people like Belkar (self-admittedly CE, but recently gravitating either towards CN or NE), Miko (either LG or LN, or pretty much anything else, depending on your POV) and V (Something-N) on the "Good" side, and people like the MitD (either TN or NG, again depending on your POV) and Therkla (CN?) on the "Evil" side.

Either way, nice poster.

[Blanth]

Is that Fruit Pie I see?
Awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Yes.
And delicious.

[Blanth]

Not that it would surprise anyone, but Tarquin and Malack are both on the other side.

And Elan's mother on Team Good. Go figure.

[Blanth]

Also, the way I see it is that Haley - Sabine are obvious sworn enemies. So that would work well Belkar and Oracle. I mean, obviously they've got a bone to pick with each other.

[SmartAlec]

One thing that amused me - Sangwaan is looking in the wrong direction. (Or looking at the zombie dragon. Either way.)

[Crisis21]

And Elan's mother on Team Good. Go figure.

Okay, two things.

First, please don't multi-post.

Second, where do you see Elan's mom on this? I can't find her.

[SmartAlec]

May be confusing Elan's mom with Lirian from the Order of the Scribble?

[TheBlackShadow]

Also, the way I see it is that Haley - Sabine are obvious sworn enemies. So that would work well Belkar and Oracle. I mean, obviously they've got a bone to pick with each other.

Not necessarily, You could also argue that Haley's current evil counterpart is Tsukiko, since Celia and Sabine could also be considered to be bizzarros of each other.

[Ajadea]

I like the Right-Eye (that is him, I assume)-Miko mirror. Banjo-Teevo is also rather amusing.

And Eric's there too, with Sara. Aww. :smalleek: Just noticed the parallel thing between the momma dragon and baby dragon/Greenhilt family.

Hey, Girard doesn't have a ponytail in the poster!

[DaveMcW]

On Team Good's poster, Thor is zapping down some lightning to empower Durkon's Hammer, and help him on this quest. On Team Evil's poster, the Dark One is not doing anything, just letting Redcloak get on with whatever he's supposed to be doing.

The Dark One empowered Redcloak's cloak, which is a much better item than Durkon's hammer.

[Blanth]

May be confusing Elan's mom with Lirian from the Order of the Scribble?

Gah. I looked back to check and I am mistaken. Elan's mom has braids.

[Theblackmage]

Im more curios about why the Giant decided on using the older versions of the chars. Redcloak has his eye, and V and Haley have their old hair, whereas Elan has his new clothes.

To take this to an even stranger degree, Haley is shown with her pre-trim hair, but wielding the bow that she got post-trim.

What really interests me, however, is Malack and Tarquin (and Kilkil, although I suppose he is less important). Are these on the bad guy poster as a (accidental?) foreshadowing, or to avoid spoilers for new readers?

[Zevox]

Don't read too much into it.
A futile warning for these forums if there was one. Especially since... wait, no, looking over the thread I see no one has latched onto that part of your comment as yet, and I don't want to be the one that starts it.

Anyway, I kind of figured it was something along the lines of what the Giant said myself, and I'm glad to see he nipped that one in the bud at least as far as the more rational posters go.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

To take this to an even stranger degree, Haley is shown with her pre-trim hair, but wielding the bow that she got post-trim.

What really interests me, however, is Malack and Tarquin (and Kilkil, although I suppose he is less important). Are these on the bad guy poster as a (accidental?) foreshadowing, or to avoid spoilers for new readers?
I hadn't noticed the bow issue. Good Eye.

As far as Malack and Tarquin go, they are high-ranking officers in a Lawful Evil empire. Tarquin himself has been known to be Lawful Evil (and Elan's mom Chaotic Good) ever since a flashback panel in Comic #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html). He is a self confessed conqueror-turned-mecenary, has had nine wives (the first he divorced, and the latest died due to 'mysterious circumstances' which I suspect also happened to the other seven), deliberately raised Nale to be the Evil mastermind he is today, and even introduces himself with a Darth Vader line. The guy is unapologetically Evil.

[Theblackmage]

I hadn't noticed the bow issue. Good Eye.

As far as Malack and Tarquin go, they are high-ranking officers in a Lawful Evil empire. Tarquin himself has been known to be Lawful Evil (and Elan's mom Chaotic Good) ever since a flashback panel in Comic #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html). He is a self confessed conqueror-turned-mecenary, has had nine wives (the first he divorced, and the latest died due to 'mysterious circumstances' which I suspect also happened to the other seven), deliberately raised Nale to be the Evil mastermind he is today, and even introduces himself with a Darth Vader line. The guy is unapologetically Evil.

No question about that; I fully realize that his alignment is LE. My thought about that was that there are several characters on the side that does not coincide with their respective alignments, such as the Shoeless God of War, Yikyik (or was it Yokyok? I can't remember which is which :smallfrown:), and possibly the priest of Loki. The divide for the posters appears to be between the teams the characters are part of. The possible foreshadowing I mentioned would be referring to Tarquin and Malak turning on the OotS.

Then again, I'm probably reading too much into it. :smalltongue:

[Toper]

One thing that amused me - Sangwaan is looking in the wrong direction.
Heh, that's great. I still love "I'm over here" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html).

I actually do think giving the Oracle such a prominent place in Team Evil is a questionable decision -- it's thematically really jarring for me. Tsukiko or even the imp would have fit perfectly. Otherwise, awesome posters!

[Crisis21]

No question about that; I fully realize that his alignment is LE. My thought about that was that there are several characters on the side that does not coincide with their respective alignments, such as the Shoeless God of War, Yikyik (or was it Yokyok? I can't remember which is which :smallfrown:), and possibly the priest of Loki. The divide for the posters appears to be between the teams the characters are part of. The possible foreshadowing I mentioned would be referring to Tarquin and Malak turning on the OotS.

Then again, I'm probably reading too much into it. :smalltongue:
The LG kobold was Yokyok, son of Yikyik. (brother to Yekyek, cousin to Yakyak, and nephew of Yukyuk. :smalltongue:)

I'm pretty sure that the OotS is going to have some conflict or other with Tarquin and the rest of the Empire of Blood. Any doubt in my mind, of which there was admittedly little, that the Order would end up fighting the Empire of Blood vanished with the last panel of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html).

[NerfTW]

No question about that; I fully realize that his alignment is LE. My thought about that was that there are several characters on the side that does not coincide with their respective alignments, such as the Shoeless God of War, Yikyik (or was it Yokyok? I can't remember which is which :smallfrown:), and possibly the priest of Loki. The divide for the posters appears to be between the teams the characters are part of. The possible foreshadowing I mentioned would be referring to Tarquin and Malak turning on the OotS.

Then again, I'm probably reading too much into it. :smalltongue:

I can't believe anyone honestly expected Tarquin and the Empire of Blood to come out of this story arc as allies. They're lawful evil, they use slaves, they've recently overthrown a country's rightful rulers, they kill people for not having their paperwork on them....

And he knows where Girard is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) and is intentionally stalling them.

Tarquin is evil, and there is no way he's going to stay on Elan's good side.

[Theblackmage]

Oh, sillly me. I had mentally filed major EoB vs. OotS conflict as "likely" and not "for sure", (Hey, who knows? The Giant may pull a curveball on us.:smalltongue:) and was speculating that the poster cements it as "for sure," though it appears that was already assumed in most people's minds.

[Forealms]

I can't believe anyone honestly expected Tarquin and the Empire of Blood to come out of this story arc as allies. They're lawful evil, they use slaves, they've recently overthrown a country's rightful rulers, they kill people for not having their paperwork on them....

And he knows where Girard is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) and is intentionally stalling them.

Tarquin is evil, and there is no way he's going to stay on Elan's good side.

I don't disagree that Tarquin is Evil (With 99% certainty, I'm assuming he didn't have any major changes of heart since #50), but I wouldn't necessarily rule out allies to the OotS, or at least a sympathetic ear. He's a mercenary, not a hard-core advocate of the Empire of Blood, any more than he was a hard-core advocate of the last half dozen empires, kingdoms, and theocracies he has served with Malack.

Back on topic, I'm amused to see TeeVo on the "evil" side, along with Mr. Jones (but not Mr. Rodriguez).

Though, truth to tell, I'm a bit disappointed Bandana-Paladin didn't make it; I mean, seriously, Sangwaan noticed Xykon and everything, but she didn't look nearly as badass in her last moments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) compared to B-P (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html). Totally sub par, there, let me be the first to say.

[ferrodoxin]

Tarquin may be evil, but who knows what side will he be on?
As someone already stated he introduces himself with a Darth Vader line. Darth Vader and an ultra powerful artifact to rule the world? Remember how that ended? Also remember his dialouge with Elan "Have you thwarted any villains yet?". He gave up trying to conquer a kingdom, and settled for a good job. The way I see it Tarquin is the guy who wants tradition and is quite happy with the world the way it is, you know heroes vs. villains and stuff. He may not want to rule the world with an ultra powerful artifact, and he is definitely (ok not definitely but likely) not the type to use high-end magic to make Snarl do his bidding. Malack may have that sort of magic but for all we know he could not even be evil. Remember that not everyone on the right side of the poster has to be one of the sides (the sided IFCC mentioned) that try to capture Snarl, they just fit into the evil theme. Remember that Therkla is on the right, alonside with Right-Eye and Hank.

[Dr.Epic]

And Miko on the good side.

Yeah, and Therkla is on the bad side (though one of her boots is on the good side). I guess it's like the Giant said: don't read too much into it.

[RMS Oceanic]

The Dark One empowered Redcloak's cloak, which is a much better item than Durkon's hammer.

To be precise, he empowered the cloak, and then Redcloak received it. What I liked about that detail in the poster is that it shows while Thor still helps out his follower with the likes of Control Weather, The Dark One has basically been waiting for his follower to get on with it.

[ferrodoxin]

Forgot about a few things.
Kinda off-topic
Some people here assume that Therkla (one of my fav chars) is neutral. While I do not disagree with this, I think it is important to note that Therkla considers herself to be evil, even though she hangs out with the good guys evidenced by her evasion of Lien's detect evil. As Hinjo stated "She can't just put on a white hat and expect us to let her go" She is after all a hired killer who probably commited lots of evil deeds in her life, and that cannot be forgiven very easily, not by a paladin and not by the alignment pool. So I think she is evil before she falls in love with Elan, and she might be neutral by the time she dies - but we don't know that.
Back-on topic (sorta)
I think Durkon & V are together placed as an opposite for Redcloak, and Sabine & Thog for Haley. Why? Because placing other characthers (say, Tsusiko for Team Evil, would give spoilers for those who have seen the poster before reading the comic. If say Yikyik (or yokyok) was placed instead of the Oracle we would start seeing threads in forums about how Hilgya would resurrect Yikyik and he would come after Belkar to avenge his son. The characters who are big in the poster are characters that are introduced realtively early and are likely to be part of the story until the end.

Why aren't Elan's mom and Haley's dad on the poster?

Also everyone's favorite house cat seems to be the opposite of MitD. Any fan theories about how MitD is vulnerable to kitty claws yet?

[Dr.Epic]

Also everyone's favorite house cat seems to be the opposite of MitD. Any fan theories about how MitD is vulnerable to kitty claws yet?

The MitD has a kitty umbrella that makes him immune to feline scratch attacks.

[Tass]

Yeah, and Therkla is on the bad side (though one of her boots is on the good side). I guess it's like the Giant said: don't read too much into it.

Garrh. I was reading through the thread and was just about to write "I can't believe nobody has pointed out that Therkla has a foot on the good side yet."

But nooo. You had to mention it just two hours ago. :)

I think it is a pretty nice touch.

[ferrodoxin]

Hmm so that's why he was given a kitty umbrella...

[Athaniar]

Truly awesome posters, these two. Might just have to get them both some day.

[Mariax_42]

Garrh. I was reading through the thread and was just about to write "I can't believe nobody has pointed out that Therkla has a foot on the good side yet."

But nooo. You had to mention it just two hours ago. :)

I think it is a pretty nice touch.

I don't want to be That Person, but... Almost everyone in the middle has something on the other side.
Thor's mantle
Roy's fathers ectoplasmic trail (sorry, forgot his name)
The black dragons wing and tail
The cleric (under Therkla) right hand
The dirtfarmer's wife's hair
The sheriff's smoke from the cigarr
Sabine's wing (goes into Haley's hair)
and the ghost dragons wings

So yeah, it's a nice touch, but not That special...

Or maybe it has something to do with that they're more neutral than good or evil.

But how the ghostdragon could be an alignment I don't know, 'cause it's a zombie/ghost thing...

Oh well..

[Urist McDwarf]

I think that Redcloak is between lawful evil and lawful neutral.

[NerfTW]

I think that Redcloak is between lawful evil and lawful neutral.

Exactly what has Redcloak done that's neutral? He zombifies his own troops, took down a good aligned city, and is actively working towards a plan that may destroy the entire planet.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Exactly what has Redcloak done that's neutral? He zombifies his own troops

He started feeling guilty about that. Now that's Tsuki's job.


took down a good aligned city

He was just collecting interest on a debt.


and is actively working towards a plan that MAY destroy the entire planet.

And it may create the long-due Golbinoid Utopia. Gotta take some risks.

[Toxic Avenger]

The new posters (see the news) raise some question: On the evil-side-poster... why is the Oracle on the evil side and... even as big, full coloured character at that? If you look at the other full-coloured characters... it's strange.If the left side is the good side and the right is the evil side, then why is Belkar on the left?

Hrmmm?


EDIT:

@\/: Yeah, I know it's been shot down, but since everyone still wants to discuss it, I was just adding another point.

[Ancalagon]

A) It's about sides, not alignments.

B) The question got shot down very quickly by Rich.

[NerfTW]

He started feeling guilty about that. Now that's Tsuki's job.


Feeling guilty about it doesn't change the fact that he did it. Criminals aren't usually found innocent by saying "I feel really bad about murdering my brother and all those innocent people" several years later.



He was just collecting interest on a debt.


A debt incurred by a secret society the populace was unaware of the existence of. So if your government has a secret squad of assassins, you'd be okay with one of their targets killing most of your family and enslaving you, who wasn't even aware of the situation?



And it may create the long-due Golbinoid Utopia. Gotta take some risks.

Oh, you're being sarcastic, right?

[Nilan8888]

I'm wondering if the best way to view the poster -- other than the simple "it's just a poster, go with it" -- is not that this is 'good vs evil' but those that aid the order vs. those who are obsticles, at least at this point in the story.

For instnace, Shojo at this interval is on the left side. However during the trial sequence, had this poster come out way back then, he might have been on the right side since he was at that time an obsticle.

Tarquin is at this point on the right side since at the moment he's a bit uncertain and is part of the system providing obsticles for Roy and Belkar right now. It's possible that at a later point he might be more appropriate to put on the left side.

It seem fitting that Therkla is the most prominent member to span both sides. She was in many ways a complication but also aided the order in other, small ways. It would also be why we see the cleric of Loki on the "good" side. And in fact, Belkar himself. In future posters the elven commander could well be placed here on the "good" side, although that guy strikes me as particularly barbaric in his approach to managing the resistance.

Is it just me or is the Snarl occupying a distant, malevolent "Darth Vader" element in this poster akin to how Vader was depicted in a lot of Star Wars posters?

[Devils_Advocate]

Sheesh, didn't anyone read the descriptions of these posters? They're not Team Good and Team Evil, they're Good Guys and Bad Guys. Totally different. That's not the same thing. :smalltongue:

Of course, any sorting of characters into protagonists and their allies on the one hand and antagonists on the other hand is going to be a bit dubious. Miko, for example, definitely antagonized Our Heroes, but she was also instrumental in getting them where they needed to be; she did fill a helpful role, as big of a jerk as she may have been about it. On the other hand, the Oracle provided the Order with useful information, and while he kind of screwed things up for them too at one point, Belkar was at least as responsible for that as he was.

It's funny to note that if the characters on the left are the ones who have furthered the Order's goals, then by implication Mr. Rodriguez serving on the prosecution was good for them. :smallbiggrin: Which could certainly make sense... except that the outcome of the trial was fixed from the beginning, anyway. Of course, that means that he didn't do anything to hurt, either, and in fact he dragged off two of the Order's enemies, but then so did Mr. Jones...

So, yeah, best not to read too much into it.


I actually do think giving the Oracle such a prominent place in Team Evil is a questionable decision -- it's thematically really jarring for me. Tsukiko or even the imp would have fit perfectly.
I have to concur. Except about the imp. Tsukiko is part of Xykon's team, so it seems like it would be more natural to have her in the forefront as part of that group. She's a relatively recent addition to her team, true, but then so is Mr. Scruffy. And the Oracle hasn't really gotten a lot of screentime; no more screentime than Tsukiko, anyway. I think? He's neither an especially prominent character nor part of any main group. It may be that he plays a more important role in the overall plot, but that could be said about a lot of background characters. So it just seems odd to see him featured so prominently.


they've recently overthrown a country's rightful rulers
Based on what we've seen of this regions's geopolitics, it's safe to say that the previous rulers came to power by conquering and overthrowing whoever was there before them. They weren't any more "legitimate" than the guys in charge now.


To be precise, he empowered the cloak, and then Redcloak received it. What I liked about that detail in the poster is that it shows while Thor still helps out his follower with the likes of Control Weather, The Dark One has basically been waiting for his follower to get on with it.
Well, he's trying to help his people to attain self-sufficiency. That's not going to happen if he goes around fixing their problems for them.


"You have to use a light touch; like a safecracker or a pickpocket."
"Or a guy who burns down a bar for the insurance money!"
"Yes, if you make it look like an electrical thing."



The Dark One's stated motives are noble, but his methods are definately evil, essentially holding a +10 Divinebane Gun to the Pantheons' head until his demands are met.
... because they chose an evil way to level up their priests. Which isn't to say that two wrongs make a right, but it is to say that what goes around comes around.

Redcloak and the Dark One are about as evil as the oppressors they're fighting. They seem to differ mostly in lacking pretensions to the contrary.


Exactly what has Redcloak done that's neutral?
He's seems to be trying to give goblinoids and various other races sufficient resources and infrastructure to prosper without having to kill humans and take their stuff.

[SeventhCircle]

But how the ghostdragon could be an alignment I don't know, 'cause it's a zombie/ghost thing...

Oh well..

Wasn't the ghost dragon originally the silver dragon in Xykon's tower?

[Gift Jeraff]

I have to concur. Except about the imp.
I think Qarr would have been a good pick. Now, I guess he can be loosely associated with the Linear Guild, and Rich said it was better that it wasn't anyone associated with Xykon or the Linear Guild, but hey the roaches are there so it would've been balanced. Only major cons I can see for him are that he's not as recognizable/memorable/iconic as the Oracle (despite having more appearances) and there might've been an overload of red for the main bad guys. And I guess separating him from House Kubota could constitute a spoiler of sorts.

[Bambino326]

I think theres a few odd bits about the poster. Tsukiko taking a backseat behind the rest of team evil, the tasty pie wizard being there. Lord Tyrinar is right there but I didnt spot Tarquin anywhere *bum bum bumm?*.

Obviously the most disturbing and glaring issue would be That Guy With A Halbred's abscence

[super dark33]

tarquin is near malack and the dark one

and who is the knight/paladin next to lien?

[Mordaenor]

I've been trying to think of characters NOT on the poster, and it's pretty hard!

The only ones I can think of are the Orc natives and Giggles, god of slapstick.


The Empress of Blood doesn't seem to have made an appearance, unless she's well hidden. That's the only character of any real note that I can't find.

[Gift Jeraff]

Lord Tyrinar is right there but I didnt spot Tarquin anywhere *bum bum bumm?*.
Lord Tyrinar is not there. We have actually never seen Tyrinar. You might be referring to Yor (the Thieves' Guild's fighter) and getting Tyrinar confused with Tarquin's old helmet.


and who is the knight/paladin next to lien?
Sir Francois, one of Elan's employers prior to joining the Order. (Made a cameo here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html).) Unless you mean Thanh.

[super dark33]

yes thats him

[Nimrod's Son]

The Empress of Blood doesn't seem to have made an appearance, unless she's well hidden. That's the only character of any real note that I can't find.
Some other notable absences are Old Blind Pete, Heironymus Grubwiggler and his entourage, Gortok the Destroyer, the drunken wizard, the grand larcenist, the three soul splices, the two resistance leaders and Team Peregrine.

[137beth]

The oracle serves Tiamat, who is lawful evil. And he balances Belkar. That's about it.