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gallagher
2010-09-05, 01:16 PM
everyone who is anyone knows one thing precisely, if you want to play a monk, ninja, or samurai and be good at what you do, you play a different class and just call yourself a monk/ninja/samurai.

but what about the spellthief? the only way i have seen people run spellthieves is in an unseen seer build. most people in that only take one level of spellthief and take the master spellthief feat, though i like to take a second level to steal buffs off of the fighter im flanking.

is there a feat tree or class that thieves spells better than a spellthief? or are there any ACFs that make taking more levels of spellthief more useful?

Fax Celestis
2010-09-05, 01:39 PM
No and no. Spellthieves are fine on their own if you know how to play them. I'll link my guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299).

Escheton
2010-09-05, 01:42 PM
Spellthiefs combine well with warlocks. By denying them some at will spell-likes for a minute you can steal it. Nice for the flight and invis for instance...

gallagher
2010-09-05, 01:51 PM
No and no. Spellthieves are fine on their own if you know how to play them. I'll link my guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299).i have seen your guide before, and actually that is why i started liking the idea of playing a spellthief. i just feel like a spellthief/sorc/unseen seer build is more powerful and does the same thing almost. you dont get absorb spell, but you have access to alot of spells that will prevent those spells attacking you from hitting.

also, on the ACFs, i was just seeing if there were any intriguing ways to change up the spellthief.

Greenish
2010-09-05, 02:28 PM
i have seen your guide before, and actually that is why i started liking the idea of playing a spellthief. i just feel like a spellthief/sorc/unseen seer build is more powerfulThere's always something more powerful (well, until you reach Pun-Pun). The first question to ask for practical optimization isn't "how to make this more powerful?" but "is this powerful enough?". If the answer to the latter is "yes", you needn't ask the former.

Urpriest
2010-09-05, 02:33 PM
Ur-Priest. Granted, no sneak attack involved, but the summoning genies and stealing their wishes trick is a fun one.

true_shinken
2010-09-05, 02:35 PM
There's always something more powerful (well, until you reach Pun-Pun). The first question to ask for practical optimization isn't "how to make this more powerful?" but "is this powerful enough?". If the answer to the latter is "yes", you needn't ask the former.

That's probably the best advice on optimization I ever heard (well, read).

IdleMuse
2010-09-05, 02:38 PM
I don't know much about Forgotten Realms, but i've seen a player pretend to be a Spellthief by taking the Spellfire Wielder line of feats, which let you absorb spells to some extent.

Greenish
2010-09-05, 02:42 PM
That's probably the best advice on optimization I ever heard (well, read).Well, it's not actually the first question (that'd be something like "how do I represent this character in mechanical terms?"), but close enough. :smalltongue:

Zaq
2010-09-05, 03:03 PM
Master Spellthief is a very useful tool for Unseen Seers and for others who want to do caster level shenanigans, but for people who actually want to use Spellthief abilities, it's kind of a trap, which makes me sad.

The tricky thing about Spellthieves that most Master Spellthief users forget is that only actual Spellthief levels progress the number of spell levels you can hold. A Master Spellthief can steal high level spells like a straight-classed Spellthief can, but only the straight-classed Spellthief can actually hold and use those spells for later. The Spellthief steals spells, while the Master Spellthief simply erases them from the victim's mind. This means that not only do you not get to use your enemy's abilities against them (which is, in my mind, no small part of the fun of the Spellthief), but you're also much more limited in which spells you can borrow from your teammates.

Your Steal Spell-Like Ability feature and your Steal Spell Effect feature are also based on your class level, which Master Spellthief doesn't progress. (Steal Spell Effect is at least affected by your charisma, but still.) Basically, all that Master Spellthief gives you is the ability to sneak attack someone and say "ha ha, you can't cast X anymore." You don't get to say "ooh, you're Hasted? That looks cool; I'll take that. Hey, you had Enervation prepared? Neat! Check this out! [NEGATIVE LEVELS]" or anything like that.

Basically, as I see it, if you want to be a sneak attacking guy with some spells at your disposal, Spellthief/Master Spellthief is a good base to start with, then go Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster or Spellwarp Sniper or whatever. If, however, you want to actually steal spells, you pretty much have to go straight Spellthief. When I played my short-lived Spellthief, I was glad for a Swordsage dip to get Island of Blades, a few Diamond Mind save-replacers, and I think a Shadow Hand teleport, but overall, only Spellthieves can actually do Spellthievery.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-05, 04:05 PM
I wonder if there's a way to make a "Heavy Spellthief", or a "SpellWar", and make it fun and effective...

Somehting along the way: Battle Spellcaster (don't know the name, the one which allows you to wear armor one category higher if you have the ability to cast when armored without penalties), beef up physical stats, perhaps TWF or two-hander... I'll ponder about this.

Zaq
2010-09-05, 04:22 PM
I wonder if there's a way to make a "Heavy Spellthief", or a "SpellWar", and make it fun and effective...

Somehting along the way: Battle Spellcaster (don't know the name, the one which allows you to wear armor one category higher if you have the ability to cast when armored without penalties), beef up physical stats, perhaps TWF or two-hander... I'll ponder about this.

No sneak attack, no stolen spells/effects/SLAs/etc. You could do it with some form of reliable flanking, invisibility before everything has blindsight, or maybe spell-storing weapons with Wracking Touch on them, but generally speaking, stomping around in heavy armor isn't the way to get SA.

I guess you could just borrow the spells from your party and not focus on SA, but then you'd be better off as a Duskblade or Sorcadin or something if you just want to gish it up.

Spellthieves are weird. Skillmonkeys and spell-users are generally relatively versatile in what they do and how they do it, but it feels like there's slightly less variety in what they do than in what similar classes do. There's still variety, but there's definitely a way the game wants you to go.

FMArthur
2010-09-05, 05:09 PM
If I were to build a "heavy" spellthief I'd just reduce skills to 2+Int, remove Trapfinding, and shift your Spells Per Day table down a row. Give the class full BAB, heavy armor proficiency (without spell failure) and improve the hit die to d10. If it has good Reflex saves (don't think so), make them poor and improve Fortitude saves.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-06, 01:22 AM
No, no, I mean a PLAYER trying to build a "Heavy Spellthief", not an alternate class.