Nine sides debate

[Crisis21]

Back in comic 548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), one of the demon roaches mentioned that there are at least nine sides in the conflict concerning the gates. What I'm intending to do here is open debate over who and what each of these nine sides are, and possibly what their goals are.

To start off, I'll list the sides already introduced as I perceive them.

1. The Order of the Stick (of course)
2. Xykon (also of course)
3. Redcloak (He himself admits openly in #548 that his plans and Xykon's concerning the Gates are not the same at all)
4. The 'Order of the Scribble' (could include mini-sides as the group is/was irrevocably fractured)
5. The Linear Guild (As of the end of Book 3)
6. The IFCC (Not putting them with the Linear Guild. Sabine may be aware of them, but it is clear from her hasty excuse in #380 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) that Nale isn't.)
7. The Gods/Celestia (They're keeping quiet about something, and their goals may not directly mesh with the Order's)
8. The Empire of Blood (Rich said he'd introduce a completely new side this book in the last one, and so far they are the most likely candidate.)

So that's 8 that I can potentially justify with my reasoning, meaning that there is at least one still waiting to be sprung on us.

[RndmNumGen]

9 could be The Dark One, if he counts as separate from Redcloak.

[Crisis21]

9 could be The Dark One, if he counts as separate from Redcloak.

I don't think he really does as Redcloak is doing pretty much everything on The Dark One's orders. He may be making some questionable choices (*cough*Xykon*cough), but their goals are identical.

Personally, if I had to pick a 9th from the cast already revealed, it would be the Snarl itself. You can bet that its goals don't line up with those of anyone else.

[TheBlackShadow]

9 could be The Dark One, if he counts as separate from Redcloak.

Doesn't seem so at this point. The reason Redcloak is Redcloak is because he is the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the high priest of the Dark One's religion. If he was on a faction other than that of the DO, then Redcloak wouldn't be Redcloak. The Dark One's Plan is Redcloak's Plan, because Redcloak serves the Dark One.

EDIT: Accursed ninja!

[Gift Jeraff]

My guess:

1. The Good Guys
2. Xykon
3. Redcloak/the Dark One (if Redcloak ever goes against him, he can probably be lumped with the Good Guys even if he's still technically very evil)
4. Nale
5. The IFCC
6. The elves (there's been an open rift in their land for over 30 years and they're helping to reconquer another land with a huge open rift; they probably want something with them)
7. Tarquin
8./9. Either something involving Girard (Girard himself, his goons, etc.), someone from the world within the rift or something, someone new, or something completely left field and ridiculous likethe Oracle, the roaches, the flumphs, or the dirt farmers. :smalltongue:
But the most likely I can see taking up another slot are Tsukiko (she's setting herself up for the inevitable heartbreak with Xykon, has access to both divine and arcane magic, and can create her own army) and whoever the boss of these guys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) is (mentioned in panel 8). Yeah, the latter is quite a stretch, but still...

And I interpret the "at least nine" to mean that you can interpret more than 9 (like you could say each individual character is their own side), but there will clearly be 9 when it's all said and done.

[Crisis21]

And I interpret the "at least nine" to mean that you can interpret more than 9 (like you could say each individual character is their own side), but there will clearly be 9 when it's all said and done.
That's how I interpret it too. The way I'm trying to define 'side' personally is by 'agenda'. A person's agenda concerning the gates may be compatible with another person's (Xykon & Redcloak for example), but if their ultimate goal does not include a benefit for their 'partner' then they are still separate 'sides' (like Nale and the IFCC). I also don't see the 'Good Guys' as all being on the same page necessarily, even if their goals are apparently the same, which is why
I put the Order of the Stick and the Order of the Scribble as separate 'sides'.

[Ajadea]

I see the Scribblers as, by now, having fractured into something like this:
1. Dorukan and Lirian
2. Soon and the Sapphire Guard
3. Girard
4. Serini, unless she's on Girard's side.

[TheBlackShadow]

Okay, here's my guess.

Certainties

1. The Order of the Stick + Sapphire Guard - Seeking to preserve the remaining Gates and the metaphysical status quo.

2. Xykon + Co. - Manipulate Gates to achieve ultimate power and world domination 4 teh evulz.

3. Redcloak + the Dark One + Gobbotopia - Use Gates to create a better world for Goblinoids.

4. The IFCC - Cause chaos and control Gates to plunge the Stickyverse into chaos and destroy the forces of Good.

5. Girard + Co. - Motive unknown (Hypothesis - prevent Gates from falling into enemy hands BAMN.).

6. The Snarl - Motive uncertain (Hypothesis - break into Stickyverse to cause general mayhem and destroy remaining gods).


Possibilities

1. The Empire of Blood - Motive unknown (Hypothesis - use Gates to achieve political stability in the Western Continent and/or achieve world domination).

2. The Linear Guild - Control Gates to achieve world domination and take disproportionate revenge for quasi-imagined slights (manipulated by IFCC).

3. Oracle + Tiamat + Pan-Draconic Anti-Elven Defence Force - Use Gates to take revenge upon elvenkind for the near-genocide of Black Dragons.

4. Divine Alliance - Preserve Gates to maintain and reinforce metaphysical status quo.

5. Serini & Co. - Motive unknown (Hypothesis - prevent Gates from falling into enemy hands BAMN (possibly in cooperation with Girard + Co.)).

6. Elven Eugenic Superiority League - Control Gates to ascertain Elven racial superiority.

[137beth]

I don't think he really does as Redcloak is doing pretty much everything on The Dark One's orders. He may be making some questionable choices (*cough*Xykon*cough), but their goals are identical.

Personally, if I had to pick a 9th from the cast already revealed, it would be the Snarl itself. You can bet that its goals don't line up with those of anyone else.

The Snarl is pretty clearly not on anyone's side other than its own. I'd also say that MitD could potentially be his own side, his motives are unclear.




Okay, here's my guess.

Certainties

1. The Order of the Stick + Sapphire Guard - Seeking to preserve the remaining Gates and the metaphysical status quo.


I would not say that the Sapphire Guard is the same side as TOOTS. They have come into a lot of indirect conflict with each other.

[Zevox]

Ah, is it that time of month again? Oh well, may as well reply to this one too.

Definite sides;
1) The Order of the Stick
2) Team Evil (Xykon, Tsukiko, their undead minions, MitD)
3) The Goblins (Redcloak, Jirix, their followers, their undead minions, the Dark One)
4) The Linear Guild (Possible conflict of loyalties with Sabine)
5) The IFCC

Possible sides:

- Girard & allies. If V's hypothesis is correct, they will likely qualify.
- The Sapphire Guard. May or may not qualify as one "Team Good" side with the Order. They seem to have more or less the same purpose now, but it's not entirely clear how aligned they are.
- The Order of the Scribble. Unlikely, given how fractured they are now, and the fact that one of the only two remaining members is likely to be on his own side.
- The Elves. The Elves have shown up with Azure City, but so far there's no indication of them getting involved with the Gates. That doesn't mean they won't, however, given one rift is in their lands, and they're helping liberate the location of a second.
- The Dwarves. They will likely show up when we go to Kraagor's Gate, which is said to be far in the north, much like their homeland. Whether they'll become involved with the Gates is entirely up in the air.
- The Empire of Blood. Depends entirely on whether it becomes involved in the struggle over the Gates or ends up a side-event to that matter.

"Side" suggestions I've seen that I reject:

- The Gods. They are not active in the conflict over the gates, and as such cannot qualify as a side.
- The Snarl. Same reason as the Gods.
- The Oracle/Dragons. There is no evidence of the Oracle doing anything other than giving his prophecies when asked, and even less that any further will be involved in the story, much less in the struggle over the Gates.
- Serini. Seems highly unlikely that she wouldn't fit on an existing side - like the Order's - if she does show up later.

Zevox

[Morquard]

Doesn't seem so at this point. The reason Redcloak is Redcloak is because he is the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the high priest of the Dark One's religion. If he was on a faction other than that of the DO, then Redcloak wouldn't be Redcloak. The Dark One's Plan is Redcloak's Plan, because Redcloak serves the Dark One.

EDIT: Accursed ninja!

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Redcloak knows about the plan exactly as much as the Dark One chooses to tell him.
The Dark One may tell his high priest exactly what that one needs to hear. In Redcloaks case it was "Equality for goblins".
We don't exactly know what the DO wants to do with the gates. What RC thinks is plan B (destroy the world and remake a new one) could be the DO's actual plan. Or maybe he just wants to destroy everything just so he can get back at the other gods.

Of course thats all just speculation as well, but just because Redcloak thinks he knows what the dark one is up to doesn't mean he really does.

[Crisis21]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Redcloak knows about the plan exactly as much as the Dark One chooses to tell him.
The Dark One may tell his high priest exactly what that one needs to hear. In Redcloaks case it was "Equality for goblins".
We don't exactly know what the DO wants to do with the gates. What RC thinks is plan B (destroy the world and remake a new one) could be the DO's actual plan. Or maybe he just wants to destroy everything just so he can get back at the other gods.

Of course thats all just speculation as well, but just because Redcloak thinks he knows what the dark one is up to doesn't mean he really does.

It really doesn't matter in the end because Redcloak still works for The Dark One. Even if Redcloak has been misinformed, he's still on The Dark One's side. Redcloak's entire plan for the Gates is to place them under The Dark One's control. Even if his motives are misguided or falsely instilled, that doesn't change them.

Xykon and Redcloak is the current most complicated relationship between 'sides' as they are working together but are ultimately opposed to each other.

Xykon needs Redcloak because Redcloak is the only one who knows how to manipulate the Gates. Redcloak needs Xykon because he has no other Arcane spellcaster available to him. And working with each other is currently easier for both of them than the alternative. However, both of them are basically planning to backstab the other once the ritual is complete.

[Zevox]

However, both of them are basically planning to backstab the other once the ritual is complete.
Er, no, not the case. Xykon isn't planning to because he doesn't have a reason to - as long as Redcloak remains cowed and working as his minion, he's fine. Redcloak isn't because the ritual is his "backstab." It doesn't do what Xykon thinks it does, and once it's done, Xykon can't do a damn thing about it, because he'd have to fight a god to get control of the gate. As far as Redcloak is concerned, once the ritual is complete, he can just leave Xykon behind and never look back (he was originally planning to offer him some cushy retirement or the like in the new Goblin nation he expects to rise once The Plan is complete, but I somehow doubt that plan remains given what Xykon has subjected him to since becoming a Lich).

Zevox

[Crisis21]

Er, no, not the case. Xykon isn't planning to because he doesn't have a reason to - as long as Redcloak remains cowed and working as his minion, he's fine. Redcloak isn't because the ritual is his "backstab." It doesn't do what Xykon thinks it does, and once it's done, Xykon can't do a damn thing about it, because he'd have to fight a god to get control of the gate. As far as Redcloak is concerned, once the ritual is complete, he can just leave Xykon behind and never look back (he was originally planning to offer him some cushy retirement or the like in the new Goblin nation he expects to rise once The Plan is complete, but I somehow doubt that plan remains given what Xykon has subjected him to since becoming a Lich).

Zevox
OK, I'll admit that Xykon doesn't have any standard backstabs planned, but he has counter-backstabs planned for when/if Redcloak betrays him.

[Ghostwheel]

9 could be The Dark One, if he counts as separate from Redcloak.

He shouldn't.

[Dr.Epic]

1. OotS
2. Xykon
3. Recloak
4. Order of the Scribble
5. Earth!
6. Fire!
7. Wind!
8. Water!
9. Heart!

[Crisis21]

1. OotS
2. Xykon
3. Recloak
4. Order of the Scribble
5. Earth!
6. Fire!
7. Wind!
8. Water!
9. Heart!

:roy::haley::durkon::vaarsuvius::elan: "GO PLANET!":smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

Everyone should remember that the roach says there are AT LEAST nine sides. So, each and every possibility given here could all be correct, plus a few others.

I do think Tarquin/Malack may constitute one of the referenced "sides we haven't met yet," simply because they are getting an awful lot of attention here in a book that is one of only two or three left in the series. There can't be too much narrative room to introduce a whole other side that we haven't seen in the conflict and still resolve all open questions, considering Rich has stated that Don't Split the Party includes the halfway point of the comic's life.

[jidasfire]

I think it's premature to assume that Tarquin and Malack are a true side. Recall that during the broken party arc, everyone seemed sure Kubota was a side and so was the Thieves' Guild. The sides are the struggle for the gates, not just every faction who shows up in the story. The Empire of Blood people seem pretty content to run their oppressive regime out in the desert, and while they might expand their borders through warfare, alliances, or trade, I think it's rather unlikely they're going to start chasing some highly magical and dangerous power source toward that end.

[Laeranu]

look at this poster really carefully:

http://www.ookoodook.com/store/media/other/PostersTogetherSmall.jpg

on the right side are all the bad guys (even the ones in the backround) and vice versa.

so look at the poster and determin which ones are on each side.

Also notice that the Oricle is one of the Main Bad Guys, that probably means he has a side.

EDIT: to see a clearer version of the poster go to News page or Okidoki website.

[Kish]

Also notice that the Oricle is one of the Main Bad Guys, that probably means he has a side.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9295927&postcount=4

...Also, I find the implied claim that that poster should be expected to include characters who haven't been introduced yet mystifying. It very obviously doesn't do so.

[Laeranu]

Oh, didnt red that one.

And yeah, it doesnt have new people, but it does put everyone we know so far in 1 place, making it easier to identify the 'sides'

[Morquard]

I think it's premature to assume that Tarquin and Malack are a true side.

I think its premature to assume we already know or met all 9 sides or maybe even 6 of them, and therefore can speculate on who they are.

[Kish]

Actually...

I'm going to look at it a nonstandard way, identifying clear-cut sides we know and not trying to get to/near nine yet.
The Order counts as one side--this is debatable, but I think they count as one.
Xykon is definitely a side.
The Dark One probably counts as a separate side from Xykon. Actually, considering the circumstances of the demon roaches saying "at least nine sides," I'm going to call that one definitely as well. Redcloak, whether he admits it or not, may be considered a part of either Xykon's side or the Dark One's side. But he's not a side of his own.
The IFCC, which explicitly wants to screw up everyone else, is a side separate from all of these. The Linear Guild may count as a side of its own, or it may be part of the IFCC's side.
That's four. And that's it. Rich may, or may not, have had nine specific sides in mind when he wrote that line. I don't know about anyone else, but I suspect when the comic's run is over, I'll look back on it and say, "Well, the nine sides could be...but then, they could be...oh well, not really important," and forget about it. I do not expect there ever to be nine or more clear-cut and unambiguous sides, and for ambiguous, not-clear-cut sides, there are already far more than nine.

[Zevox]

Redcloak, whether he admits it or not, may be considered a part of either Xykon's side or the Dark One's side.
Not really. It's quite clear that his goals do not coincide with Xykon's and never will, and that he fully intends to carry out the Dark One's Plan.


The Linear Guild may count as a side of its own, or it may be part of the IFCC's side.
Considering that Nale is clearly unaware of the existence of the IFCC and has his own intentions separate from theirs, they would clearly qualify as a separate side, just one that the IFCC can potentially manipulate through Sabine.


I don't know about anyone else, but I suspect when the comic's run is over, I'll look back on it and say, "Well, the nine sides could be...but then, they could be...oh well, not really important," and forget about it. I do not expect there ever to be nine or more clear-cut and unambiguous sides, and for ambiguous, not-clear-cut sides, there are already far more than nine.
Agreed.

Zevox

[Crisis21]

I do notice that alot of people are lumping the 'Good Guys' together as a single side. Personally, I don't think that is, or ever really has been, truly accurate. You may notice that this is a rehash of my earlier list, but I'm now going to be defending my rationale for choosing the way I did.

The 'sides' we can be absolutely certain of are:

1) The Order of the Stick - They are the protagonists of the comic. They may not have gotten into this specifically to protect the Gates, but that is what they have ended up doing. They are the first side to have learned about the Gates that did not already know of them when the comic started. As such, they are not necessarily privy to all of the intricacies of their mission, and like all good campaign adventurers are effectively running half-blind.

2) Xykon - He's the Big Bad. Full stop. His goals are to use the Gates to channel the power of the Snarl to conquer the world. However, he only knows as much about the Gates as Redcloak has told him. He is smart enough to grasp that Redcloak may be planning to screw him over on the whole deal though and has made preparations for such an eventuality (most of which happen in Start of Darkness).

3) The Dark One/Redcloak - Redcloak and The Dark One want the power of the Gates to blackmail the rest of the Gods into giving the Goblinoids a more equal share of the world. Heck, the whole plan to manipulate the Gates is The Dark One's in the first place and Redcloak is the one who recruited Xykon for that purpose. However, Redcloak underestimated Xykon who has used Redcloak's dedication to the plan to manipulate him into killing his own brother and now uses Redcloak's guilt over the act to keep him under his thumb. Redcloak still hasn't told Xykon that the ritual not only won't give Xykon control over the Snarl but may end up getting the both of them destroyed.

4) The Linear Guild (Primarily Nale) - We don't know what Nale has planned regarding the Gates yet, only that he has just as much knowledge of them as Shojo was able to convey. But we do know that Nale is a petty and spiteful person who takes 'disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights'.

5) The IFCC - With Sabine as their contact/mole in the Linear Guild, they learned about the Gates and plan to pit everyone against everyone else as part of a plot to eventually strengthen and unite the lower planes. They essentially represent the collective interests of the lower planes in doing so.

So, with the ones we know have a stake in the fate of the Gates and are taking action, let's look at some of the other possible introduced 'sides' that may have an unknown or uncertain stake in this.

The possible 'sides' that could be formed from currently introduced characters that both have knowledge of the Gates and a personal stake in the outcome of this conflict are:

6) The Upper Planes/The Gods - With the IFCC representing the interest of the lower planes, what stake do the upper planes have in this? We know the Gods were both responsible for creating the Snarl and also responsible for imprisoning it. We also know that there appears to be a Planet inside the Gates, which means that the Gods may be keeping knowledge regarding the Gates and the Snarl's prison overall from everyone. What this knowledge is and why it is being kept hidden is unknown to anyone but Rich at this point.

7) The 'Order of the Scribble' - If there is anyone on the Prime Material Plane who can be considered experts on the Gates, it is these people. We know that they quested to find, and then later seal, the Gates and also worked to erase all knowledge of the gates from public record. Clearly they considered people knowing about these things to be dangerous, but we likely don't know all of their reasons. We also know that they fractured really badly at the end of their career together and at least three were ready to rip each other apart. We do know that the death of Kraagor was the catalyst that set this off, but we don't know what the rest of the circumstances leading up to such a rift were either. So far, Dorukan and Lilian are dead and imprisoned (see Start of Darkness for details), Soon is dead and in the afterlife, and Kraagor is dead (possibly by Snarl, but uncertain). Only Girard and Serini are potentially still alive, but we can't know for certain as they would have to be pretty old, and we know Xykon has Serini's diary but not how he got it.

8) Tarquin and the Empire of Blood - We were told by Rich that we would be seeing a completely new 'side' in the current 'Book' that had not been introduced before. So far, only these people might fit the bill. Tarquin clearly knows Girard, but we don't know how or why, if Tarquin is even aware of the Gates, or what plans he may or may not have for them if he is.

9) The Snarl - As of the end of Book 4, with the revelation that there is another Planet inside the Gates, we are essentially slapped with the fact that we really don't know anything about the nature of the Gates, and the Snarl itself by extension. All we know is what the Gods have conveyed to those defending the gates, and the Gods may have their own agenda.

[Barlen]

Oh well, I guess I'll post my own analysis here =)

Primary: Solid and well known
1. OOTS led by Roy
2. Xykon (with Tsukiko as a follower)
3. Redcloak and the goblins (followers of the dark one)

Secondary
4. Paladins formerly of Azure city (view as Soon's followers?) (Former defenders now out of the direct action?)
5. The linear guild (Nale will have or make direct plans for a gate)
6. IFCC (Stated they have specific plans, which now include V)

Unknown 7, 8, 9 or more. The roach said AT LEAST 9 sides. Author likely has 9 in mind but others could be created.

There are several group that we know will play a part but we dont know how they are structured, who works for or is loyal to whom. Just like Xykon and Redcloak work together but are not on the same side, or the linear guild works for the IFCC and Nale doesnt know it, these may or may not be one or more teams. But we know they have a role!

- Girard and his followers (highly likely)
- Tarkin, High priest Maleck, and The empire of blood (the queen etc)

Now we have questions that haven't been answered yet. Are Tarkin and malek on the same side or do they operate more like Xykon and redcloak? Are they both on the side of the Empire of blood or do they represent something different? Is the queen just a lackey of Malek and Tarkin? What is their relationship to Girard if any?

Others: There are some who may or may not play a large enough part of the story to be considered a "side".

- the Elves (unlikely, they are not focused on the gates that we know of)
- The Oracle (how active is he or is he just a neutral party)
- The Mitd

The 9 sides refers to the central conflict. Thus the elves and the oracle and others, might be discounted based on the fact they are not part of that conflict directly. They may have their own agenda but its not directed at the gates.

Also, IMHO, the biggest wild card here is the Mitd. He has yet to really delare his own intentions. He just lets others make his decisions for him. Where does he stand when that changes??

[Hawk7915]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9295927&postcount=4

...Also, I find the implied claim that that poster should be expected to include characters who haven't been introduced yet mystifying. It very obviously doesn't do so.

I saw that post, and many people refer to it, and it does explain that the Oracle isn't necessarily "evil" or "a bad guy", but due to the wording I feel like it might be even more evidence that the Oracle is a "side" in this conflict:


Don't read too much into it. He's the most important non-Good character that is the same size as Belkar, thus keeping the composition of the poster balanced. The fact that he also represents a group that is not associated with either Xykon or the Linear Guild helps. (emphasis mine)

[Barlen]

I saw that post, and many people refer to it, and it does explain that the Oracle isn't necessarily "evil" or "a bad guy", but due to the wording I feel like it might be even more evidence that the Oracle is a "side" in this conflict:

(emphasis mine)

That is interesting indeed. But the question that still needs to be answered is do they have an intentions towards the gates (this specific conflict) or are they neutral. The Oracle is aligned with Tiamat (thats where he got his powers) so is she the leader of the group? But yes, he is likely involved in ways we don't yet know.

Also note from that poster while Girard is on the good guys side, Tarkin and Malak are on the bad guys side. This is true even tho Girard left a trap behind that the Order got blasted by and even tho Tarkin appears to be willing to assist Elan/Haley etc.

[dps]

Ok, there are some groups that we can say confidently are sides in this conflict, IMO:

1) Order of the Stick.
2) Xykon and minions (not including Redcloak and his goblinoids).
3) The Dark One, Redcloak, and the goblinoids.
4) The IFCC.
5) The Linear Guild
All 5 of these groups are aware of the Gates, and have their own agenda for them.

Other possible sides, starting with those known to be aware of the Gates:

Azurites/Sapphire Guard: Aware of the Gates, and interested in them, but basically have the same agenda as the OotS, so it's not clear that they should be a separate side.

Surviving members of the Order of the Scribble: Certainly aware of the Gates, and interested in them. However, it's not clear if they have an agenda that differs from that of the Order of the Stick, or that there even ARE any surviving members. Surviving (or deceased, for that matter) members may have as yet unknown associates that could constitute a separate faction or factions.

The demon roaches. Aware of the Gates, but haven't shown any interest in or agenda for them.

The Gods. Certainly aware of the Gates, and interested in them. However, their main interest is to see that the Snarl remains imprisoned, which is the same as that of the Order, plus they don't seem to be interested in becoming directly involved. If they did intervene directly, could be more than one side

Then we have groups that aren't even aware of the existance of the Gates or the Snarl as far as we know (first 5 are reasonable possiblities, rest are either completely speculative or just included as jokes):

The Empire of Blood.

Other nations which have been mentioned in the story, even if just in passing.

The Thieves Guild.

The Elves.

The Dwarves.

Gannji and Enor?

The dirt farmers?

The remnants of the bandits once lead by Samantha?

The Barbarians Guild?

Julio?

Others?