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View Full Version : But, but... I don't WANT to railroad you!



Ubercaledor
2010-09-05, 07:22 PM
Hmm, started a new campaign (solo, 4e) with an explorer/role-player.

After just the first session, I quickly realised that my planned approach may not work. The player is reasonably new to the game, having previously played about 2-3 sessions of 3.5 and a full campaign of a friend's homebrew. Now, I'm not the most experienced DM in the world by any means, however I was planning on keeping a pretty open story, to allow for some PC freedom (we'd previously been complaining about the railroading in the homebrew).

So I had an opening "explore your skill-use and interaction with the in-game environment" fetch-quest, in which the player kept saying "I need more description, you need to tell me where I'm going, I need a map" when describing walking down a straight road in a market district. Now, I'm quite happy to spend my time doing world-building, but the city's exact layout was supposed to be quite maleable, you know, if the player wanted a bar, there was a bar down the road to the right, if they wanted a library, there was one on the other side of town, across from the temple.

I hadn't sat down and mapped it all out, and to be honest, the sort of map I did would likely be insufficient, with the player asking "what are they selling in this store?", "when I get to the rooftop, what is around me?" To the former, I reply "There is a broad rooftop, you can still hear the clinking armour of the guards behind you, beginning to climb the ladder. You look around to see annother rooftop across a gap in the alley-way, about 4ft across, below you, a tree stretches up to almost the level of a roof, across the courtyard below is a fountain in the centre of a bustling square. The roof itself is bare aside from the stack of a chimney."

Personally, I thought that offers 3 potential logical options (try to hide in/behind the chimney, try to jump the gap, climb down the tree) and numerous illogical ones (stand and fight, leap over the edge into the fountain, put on a disguise and pretend you're a chimney-sweep...)

All of these options would have a potential for success, and I wasn't favouring any over any others. I was intentionally trying to speed up decision-making as the previous encounter had lasted 15minutes where the player couldn't decide whether or not to pay a child 1s to not tell everyone in the immediate area that he had seen the PC pickpocket 3s from another NPC.

I think the PC's hesitance was due to a belief that there was some sort of trap, and a level of metagaming in that regard. What she doesn't understand is that I was rolling consequence rolls for everything (d20, the higher the result, the better), so there was no RIGHT option, there might just be a +2/-2 based on how innapropriate a choice is to the circumstance.

I get the feeling I should avoid open-ended 'explore' sessions in the future for this reason, but at the same time, that's what the player really wants to do.

So, what does everyone think? Should I just scrap my plan in favour of a linear story-line? Maybe this is a better option at least until the player is more experienced.

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-05, 07:30 PM
Maybe she just needs a little time to get used to the new scenario. (Maybe you need a little time to get used to it as well.) Try playing a couple more sessions before you decide to make changes.

Gensh
2010-09-05, 07:38 PM
Sometimes you've got no choice but to actually railroad. I ran my first several campaigns almost wholly open-ended, but each time my group got bored and wanted to do something else because they felt that they had no idea what they were supposed to be doing. Of course, they weren't supposed to be doing anything; they could choose to do whatever and I'd tell them what happened. As a result, I was deposed from the position of DM twice, with the latter setup lasting until we all went to college. Some players just enjoy that sort of rigidity; my group went from 3.X (or Exalted) Elder Scrolls-style games to a 4E Legend of Zelda style game.

devinkowalczyk
2010-09-05, 07:42 PM
Some things get easier
combat
sneakery
thievery
etc


but some thing will always cause the player to stop
such as rolling dice out of combat


give it time
all games get better with time

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 07:42 PM
Most new players are uncertain at first, and hesitate to make decisions because they don't know what decision is the correct one, or even what decisions they might be making.

It fades in time, but initially, playing tends to be slow, and sometimes you need to throw out really big, obvious hooks. Baited with piles of gold.

Shpadoinkle
2010-09-05, 09:35 PM
Yeah, new players generally need hooks pretty much thrown at them because they don't know how to find them themselves yet.

It's not the same as railroading, it's just that most players new to tabletop games haven't played a game where they can do ANYTHING before, so you'll have to lead them for a bit before they get the hang of it. Throw ideas around until the player finds something they like the sound of.

Also, dropping a new player, solo, in the middle of a city with no direction can be intimidating. They don't know why they're there, what kind of city it is, if they've lived there thier entire lives or just recently arrived, how big it is, if they know anyone there, anything. How would YOU feel if you suddenly found yourself alone in the middle of a city with total amnesia except for a few minor details about yourself? Probably confused and intimidated and uncertain what to do, right?

Personally, I'd have a talk with the player before the next game asking what thier expectations are and seeing about working out a sort of storyline (i.e. "You're a bounty hunter and you've heard of a 5,000 GP bounty on the head of a wanted criminal who's supposedly holing up in this city" or "The local government has sent out a call for mercanaries to deal with some as yet unnamed threat, so you've come here to offer your services" or something like that- doesn't have to be real detailed, but it gives the player some direction and a goal.)

DragoonWraith
2010-09-05, 09:38 PM
Generally, you want to start on a pretty narrow track. Toss some plot-hooks at them, when they express interest in one, make it happen.

Don't make it take very long, but have them explore their area while doing it. Have them pick up useful information. Let them get to know the lay of the land. Once they're into it, they can pick their own way.

But "you're in a city, what do you do?" is rather rough on a player.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-05, 09:41 PM
Yeah, that's something best tossed to more experienced players.

"you're in a city, what do you do?"

Noob: Er, I dunno. What is there to do?

Most players: Magic Items, give me teh magic items! Then to the tavern for ale and wenches!

Mythical experienced players: I inquire after recent events in the city, as well as about the existence of a temple within which I can give thanks to my god for sparing me on this last adventure.

mobdrazhar
2010-09-05, 09:54 PM
Town guards are usually more than happy to hand information freely to new players about the goings on about town and any dilemmas in the area :smallwink:

Loren
2010-09-05, 10:19 PM
I've been in a similar situation to the player before. what I found difficult was identifying options that were available to me. Having options made clear was helpful. So in the example, I'd have appreciated if the DM explained a, what sorts of things I could try and b, given me a feeling of how difficult it would be to accomplish them. It is hard to appreciate the difficulty of doing anything in D&D without understanding the DC, therefore it might be a good idea to keep the PHB open to the chapter on skills and tell the player how their PC might evaluate their situation.

About speed, one thing that has helped is counting out loud. It's important to establish what counting means before play as it can confuse some players and others may not like the added pressure. Some one very interested in RP should like it though, as it forces them into the moment and the need to make snap decisions (note that this can drive thinkers nuts).
Another option to speed things up is to have the action move on without the player. If the player takes too long to make a decision warn them that the NPCs are starting to do something. If that doesn't prompt them to action the NPCs make their move. This is only likely to happen once or twice before the player starts to pick up on the warnings.

When doing a solo adventure it is really important to know a, the player's style and desires and b, your own. In larger games the DM can shape things roughly to their pleasing and since their is a variety of players some will enjoy what ever is happening. In solos, however, the DM must cater to one player. If the player wants an exploration game the DM must spend the time to create a world to explore. If the DM's goals aren't the same as the player's a conflict is possible. The mature thing to do is for bothsides to be clear what they want to make the game enjoyable and then reach a comprimise.

If they really want an explore game the emphasis should be on the world. Make plot hooks easy to find and ignore. Join a caravan to this city or join a ship sailing to that, it won't change the world either way, but you get to see different things.

0Megabyte
2010-09-05, 10:29 PM
Mobdrazar:

I take it you've seen the original Clash of the Titans, because the town guard there too seemed to double as the town tourist guide. :smalltongue:

mobdrazhar
2010-09-05, 10:34 PM
Mobdrazar:

I take it you've seen the original Clash of the Titans, because the town guard there too seemed to double as the town tourist guide. :smalltongue:

Why yes i have :smallwink:

Edit: This was also the tactic that i used when i had some... well "fresh meat" at the start of a campaign that i ran (all were new to RP except for my gf).

WarKitty
2010-09-05, 11:09 PM
Sometimes it helps to dangle a few suggestions in front of them. A bit of narrative like "it sounds like the guards are getting closer. They look fairly strong and there's several of them. You should probably try to run or hide." can help the player along. Think multiple-choice at first, then gradually start giving out more choices and vaguer suggestions.

Telonius
2010-09-06, 12:51 AM
The player also might be thinking something along the lines of those old "Choose your Own Adventure" books. You know, the ones where you get eaten by the dragon if you buy a potato instead of a loaf of bread from the merchant. I'd take the player aside and let him know that you're not actively gunning out for the character, but offering him a range of options. Some of those options might be more or less difficult, but none of them are particularly "wrong."

Lord Raziere
2010-09-06, 01:12 AM
Yeah, that's something best tossed to more experienced players.

"you're in a city, what do you do?"

Noob: Er, I dunno. What is there to do?

Most players: Magic Items, give me teh magic items! Then to the tavern for ale and wenches!

Mythical experienced players: I inquire after recent events in the city, as well as about the existence of a temple within which I can give thanks to my god for sparing me on this last adventure.

.....I thought the third thing would be the most obvious :smallconfused:

Zeful
2010-09-06, 01:20 AM
Sometimes you've got no choice but to actually railroad.

Not really, the best choice is to make them react to a situation.

Here's something I've thought up. Sit down and map out the important events in the first 4 or so hours of in-game time. Include something the PCs should reasonably react to (the town's being attacked by cultists/Gnolls, a little girl's parents have gone missing, something) and start there. It helps establish to the players that there's something to do.

Totally Guy
2010-09-06, 02:31 AM
You should find out what the player wants the character to accomplish. Find something they care about. Threaten that. Prepare to run the game that way.

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-06, 04:20 AM
Experience doesn't necessarily mean they'll be any more creative wehn not given plots hooks. My groups are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, they'll go along with pretty much ANYTHING I'll say I'll run (which is good, since I'm a preparation heavy-DM. My off-the-cuff skills are okay (in fact not nearly as bad as I would have thought on the last - very rare occasion - I had to use them), but it definately takes the edge of my skill if I'm not fully prepared.)

On the other hand, trying to get them to do something without direction is like getting blood out of a stone. The one and only game that I have ever DM'd in anger in the lasy twenty yeats which failied was one that was supposed to be more of a free-form game (starting bottom up, rather than top-down). Not too mention last time I asked for some ideas for everyone's favourite party (who we've been playing for, like, fifteen years!) for the next adventure, I was met with blank looks and crickets chirpping...

I think the former out weights the latter, on balance, though, since the reverse would be more problematic for me (and probably less fun).

Ubercaledor
2010-09-07, 11:37 PM
The player also might be thinking something along the lines of those old "Choose your Own Adventure" books. You know, the ones where you get eaten by the dragon if you buy a potato instead of a loaf of bread from the merchant. I'd take the player aside and let him know that you're not actively gunning out for the character, but offering him a range of options. Some of those options might be more or less difficult, but none of them are particularly "wrong."
^
This, I believe, was the issue at hand.

I do appreciate the feedback, thanks everyone. I think I need to work harder on cementing the few details I had. The player also expressed frustration on "not knowing what the dice-roll had to be", which I was doing intentionally (so if a 10 was rolled with a 25 DC the player would be given wildly incorrect info) but I think a swap to transparency is a better option in her case. I think she's still under the "If I rolled for it, it must be true" assumption.

There was a particular issue where I said in Char-gen that "because you have low strength, I'm unlikely to give you big gaps to jump over (i.e. need athletics)". Later in the previously mentioned example, when I mentioned a gap between the roof-tops, she instantly accused me of lying- Once again, I think that's probably a matter of getting used to my style of DM-ing, where things are there because it makes sense to me to be there (it makes sense that if you climb a building from an alleyway, there's always a rooftop gap somewhere nearby), not because I expect you to try. Once again, I think this is probably "you mentioned it, so it must be important". Really, I'm trying to desensitise with detail-dump so I can slip in subtleties later. Maybe I should be a bit more heavy-handed.


Basically don't give open choices, without clues, ala "what do you want to do?"

I learnt that lesson, I once said "do you want to go left or right?" just to fill time, though that turned out well, I then extrapolated "music and revelry from right, sounds of a scuffle from the left" which led to her coming across a troupe of bards, which I hadn't planned for.

EDIT: It was a bit hairy for a sec, though as she started up her "I don't know! I need more information! Draw me a map!" "You seriously want me to draw you a map of an alleyway with a fork in the road, and no other people around?"


Sometimes it helps to dangle a few suggestions in front of them. A bit of narrative like "it sounds like the guards are getting closer. They look fairly strong and there's several of them. You should probably try to run or hide." can help the player along. Think multiple-choice at first, then gradually start giving out more choices and vaguer suggestions.
I did try that a few times, but generally good advice.

As an aside, she later got upset when I said "the battle is over when a person becomes bloodied", and when she hit the exact HP of becoming bloodied after a rogue crit I insta-house-ruled she had to be BELOW to be considered bloodied. I underestimated that in solo-campaigns, one player-death is a TPK.