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Peregrine
2010-09-06, 01:54 AM
I thought we must surely have a thread around like this, right? But searching both the Roleplaying and Friendly Banter forums has turned up nothing recent, only a few older threads that were about particular problems. So I thought I'd make one and see how it goes.

Naturally that's because I've got a problem in the group I DM, and I'd like any suggestions that the Playground has to offer on how to resolve it.
One player in my group generally brings a grumpy and confrontational attitude to the table. This is the first D&D game she's played, although she's been in it since early 2008 now. She got into it because her husband was, and is, one of the long-term players; she expressed disinterest on the occasions when we played at their house, but she was involved in online freeform roleplays and was finally convinced to give D&D a go.

From the first, she tended to have her mobile phone in hand at the table, keeping up with her other roleplays I believe. It was somewhat frustrating, but I didn't do anything about it -- probably a mistake. I didn't want to scare off the newbie, I guess, or I was just avoiding confrontation.

She gets frustrated with the mechanics every so often, particularly if things don't go as she expects, or go against her (e.g. she fails a caster level check vs. spell resistance), or if I the DM make a mistake and backtrack on something I've said. (Maybe you think that's bad DMing -- that I should make a decision and stick to it -- but all the other players have seemed generally fine with me correcting myself or being corrected.) And when she gets frustrated, she can be quite aggressive or passive-aggressive, from withdrawing and telling the group to just do whatever, right up to calling me a very rude name.

Also, she plays a blaster sorceress, and likes to solve problems with fire. It tends to mean that subtler situations and roleplaying opportunities get blasted. (In particular, the bard loses out on her face time because of this.) That would be fine, if it was just the character's attitude; NPCs or the other players could call her on it, and maybe she'd be more willing to let the bard shine next time. But the player takes it personally if her character gets told off or is ineffective in a situation.

In the session before last, exactly such a situation occurred -- "bandits" attacked the party, but turned out to be locals, merchants or gold prospectors, dominated by the evil mage's cabal. The party figured out their rather clumsy ambush attempt, and the monk snuck around and put two of them down with nonlethal damage, silently (the ease of doing so hinting that these enemies were not really a threat to the party). Then he stepped on a twig before getting to the third one. The "bandits" charged the party. The warlock put one down; the bard noticed the tell-tale signs of magical compulsion. But the sorceress got her turn first. One cone of cold fired at the monk's position killed the two enemies still standing in that direction, and also killed the unconscious ones.

The paladin NPC travelling with the party didn't directly confront the sorceress for this, but he expressed a great deal of grief over the needless loss of life, and insisted the party bury the dead.

That was the session before last. Last session, yesterday, the player made several sharp comments about whether they were allowed to use lethal force against this or that enemy, and whether the paladin would insist they be buried. In particular, there was a fight against grey renders provoked by the same evil cabal. I told this player that she knew, from her excellent Knowledge (Arcana) check, that grey renders were generally peaceful creatures, though they were more than capable of using lethal force against the party. This was meant to be a reason to let the fleeing one go, and another evil deed for which the cabal should be made to pay. It was taken as a criticism and a callback to the cone of cold incident the previous session.

I don't want to ask her to leave; when she gets into the game and is in a good mood, she's a good player and roleplayer. I'm worried that any attempt to confront her on this, however carefully phrased, will be met in the same way as in-game setbacks and wind up with her leaving. Plus she's the wife of one of the long-term players, like I said, and that could get messy (possibly losing two players out of four). But it's gotten to the point where the bard's player, another long-term group member and also my wife, has told me she's not enjoying the game. :smallfrown:

kyoryu
2010-09-06, 04:02 AM
It sounds like she doesn't want to be there. The acting out at the table, and deliberate annoyance of the group (you don't think it's accidental, do you??) are just symptoms of that.

Talk to her, or her husband, and find out why she doesn't want to play, and what you can do to make the game more enjoyable for her. Subtly remind her that the point of the game is to be fun for everyone, and if someone's not having fun, it makes the game worse for everyone, so what can we do to make you have more fun?

You know, kind of approach it from a "hey, our bad, we're obviously doing something wrong because you're not having fun."

If I'm right, and she doesn't want to be there and was basically pressured by hubby to go, she'll take any confrontation or accusation of wrongdoing as an excuse to escalate the conflict and storm out.

Frankly, I suspect she's a bit of a drama queen overall, and is more comfortable in those types of games... the PbP games I've seen seem to tend that direction anyway, and it sounds like she has no interest in the game mechanics, which seems like another sign.

She may also feel somewhat insecure and unsure of herself in the group, and so being really light on the criticism may help, and making sure she gets complimented when she does good things. Nobody wants to hear "you're stupid" all night, especially when they're just learning and playing with a bunch of vets. Even if she's just a drama queen and is AW'ing, the extra attention will at least feed that part and let her preen a bit.

Math_Mage
2010-09-06, 04:03 AM
Take your problems one at a time. She gets frustrated by bad luck and difficult encounters; fine, but the immediate problem is the business with tiptoeing around enemies for fear that they're actually good but mind-controlled.

Run a session or two with simpler premises (this is obviously a combat encounter where lethal force is necessary, that is obviously the bard's face time, and so on). Then have a chat. Apologize, even though you're not in the wrong. "My initial plan was to demonstrate how evil the cabal is by having them control innocent creatures, but I didn't realize how that would affect your character in combat." Something like that. Depending on how this goes, you might offer a solution for this specific problem--for example, giving her character the Nonlethal Substitution feat from Complete Arcane (energy type of her choice). Since she's a sorceress, there's none of the 'do I have to prepare nonlethal spells today' business there would be with a wizard.

Peregrine
2010-09-06, 08:17 AM
You know, kind of approach it from a "hey, our bad, we're obviously doing something wrong because you're not having fun."

That's such a good way to approach it that it seems blindingly obvious in hindsight and I can't believe I didn't think of it. Thank you, Kyoryu. :smallsmile:

RandomNPC
2010-09-06, 08:26 AM
talk it over with her husband, get his input, and if he will talk to her, or help confont her, go for it. If she can't listen to him then it's something bigger than the game.

Peregrine
2010-09-06, 08:44 AM
talk it over with her husband, get his input, and if he will talk to her, or help confont her, go for it. If she can't listen to him then it's something bigger than the game.

I had thought of that; I'm just very wary of doing anything that might (a) look like talking about her with her husband behind her back, or (b) in any way coming between a husband and wife.

arrowhen
2010-09-06, 08:54 AM
There's a perception in some freeform circles that D&D is mostly a mindless combat game. If she expected a game about killing everything that moves, I can see why she'd be confused when she gets scolded for killing everything that moves.

Peregrine
2010-09-06, 09:03 AM
There's a perception in some freeform circles that D&D is mostly a mindless combat game. If she expected a game about killing everything that moves, I can see why she'd be confused when she gets scolded for killing everything that moves.

But even if that's what she thought at first (and maybe that's why she was hesitant to join in), she's long since had time to get past that. And like I said, for a decent chunk of the time she's a perfectly good player and roleplayer. For instance, she's as cut up as anyone over the loss of a certain cheery NPC merchant, a long-time ally of the party and another victim of this cabal of mages.

EDIT: ↓ I agree completely.

arrowhen
2010-09-06, 09:45 AM
OK, just a thought.

Anyway, you really do need to talk to her - and I do mean *her*. Going through the husband is treating her as something less than a fully-fledged, valued member of the gaming group.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-06, 10:10 AM
Frankly, I suspect she's a bit of a drama queen overall, and is more comfortable in those types of games... the PbP games I've seen seem to tend that direction anyway, and it sounds like she has no interest in the game mechanics, which seems like another sign.


This is the exact same impression I got. PbP freeform games tend not to have mechanics, and failure as we know it in D&D really doesn't exist. Sounds like that's a much better match for her.

Yeah, talk to her, and see if she really does want to game. I normally support advocating solving all problems with fire, but you do have to at least be willing to accept the consequences of your actions.


Nobody wants to hear "you're stupid" all night, especially when they're just learning and playing with a bunch of vets.

Lol, this is exactly how new players are generally treated. All in good fun, of course, and we're all friends, but people will be laughed at when they do something dumb.

Lady Moreta
2010-09-06, 08:58 PM
As the wife, and player of the bard, I'm just going to stick my nose in here briefly.


Talk to her, or her husband, and find out why she doesn't want to play, and what you can do to make the game more enjoyable for her. Subtly remind her that the point of the game is to be fun for everyone, and if someone's not having fun, it makes the game worse for everyone, so what can we do to make you have more fun?

You know, kind of approach it from a "hey, our bad, we're obviously doing something wrong because you're not having fun."

Wow. We're idiots. I can't believe neither of us thought of that before. Admittedly in my case I'll freely admit that I'm so sick of her behaviour that I'm almost at the point where I don't want to play with her any more. I'm a little biased, and I'll admit that. But that is really a brilliant idea.


She may also feel somewhat insecure and unsure of herself in the group, and so being really light on the criticism may help, and making sure she gets complimented when she does good things. Nobody wants to hear "you're stupid" all night, especially when they're just learning and playing with a bunch of vets. Even if she's just a drama queen and is AW'ing, the extra attention will at least feed that part and let her preen a bit.

Well that's just it. No one has been saying 'you're stupid' to her at all. All of us (save her husband) were new to the game when we started. Heck, Peregrine had to spend game after game reminding me I had bardic music. He even deliberately set up a part of one session specifically for me to use it, and then had to remind me of it. And I dread my next level-up because I have to pick more spells. My point is that we're not the kind of group to go 'haha that was dumb' to anyone.


Take your problems one at a time. She gets frustrated by bad luck and difficult encounters; fine, but the immediate problem is the business with tiptoeing around enemies for fear that they're actually good but mind-controlled.

That's not really how that session played out though. We we traveling down a road, and saw two overturned wagons. Previous experience told us this was going to be an ambush of some sort. The monk decided to sneak up to the wagons to see what he could see. Rolled so well that not even we could see him when he got there. He noticed three ambushers on the right and one on the left. While we stayed where we were, he went to knock them all out, figuring there was no point in killing if we didn't have to (and hey, he's a monk, he's lawful good).

He put one down with no noise - and put him down with one punch, which suggested they weren't much threat. Moved to the next and made some noise, which alerted the others. At this point the sorceress blasts the area with cone of cold - despite the rest of us trying to explain that it wasn't necessary and she shouldn't use such a powerful spell. Heck, the monk even tried to cover one of the ambushers to save him (failed unfortuntately).

My bard then yells and requests they come out. Nothing happens. The ambusher from the left attacks the sorceress and misses. The warlock then blasts him. At this point, my bard realises that they were acting as if they were under some sort of enchantment.

The problem as I see it is that she simply doesn't listen when we try and explain things, or suggest that using overwhelming force isn't necessarily the best idea. She doesn't seem to like being told what to do. The thing is though, that it was obvious these guys weren't a threat. We all tried to tell her cone of cold was excessive and she ignored us.

The other problem is kind of one of mechanics. Obviously I am married to the DM and we discuss the game after every session when everyone else has left (we host). I know that Peregrine tries to include things for each of us in most of the sessions (doesn't work all the time, but I realise that). The mechanical problem is that her initiative is higher than mine. I can easily recognise situations that Peregrine as put in specifically for my bard, but the problem is that because her init is higher than mine, she gets her turn first and does something (like the above example) that completely screws it up and consequently my bard ends up with nothing to do again.

I'll admit, I know I'm biased against her. I'm trying to be neutral, but it's not easy. Especially not when she calls my husband a very rude name in my own house. I didn't call her out on it the first time, but I will if she ever does it again. I'd like to tell her that that sort of language is unacceptable in my house and if she can't control herself then she's no longer welcome in my house. I probably wouldn't, because as Peregrine said, that would essentially decimate the group. I say it to give an idea of how very mad I am about what she called my husband, and how very unacceptable I think that sort of language is.


For instance, she's as cut up as anyone over the loss of a certain cheery NPC merchant, a long-time ally of the party and another victim of this cabal of mages.

I miss Aspelli

Thurbane
2010-09-06, 09:10 PM
The only way, in my experience, to handle situations like this is to talk it through. Ideally, this should consist of two (or three) talks: 1 on 1 with DM and problem player; group talk with DM and rest of group; group talk with everyone (DM, problem player and rest of group).

In the 1 on 1 talk, ask the player is she's happy at the table, if she really wants to be in the game, and if she's not happy, what her primary concerns are.

In the DM with rest of group talk, ask the group if they are having problems with this player, and if she is making the game less enjoyable for everyone else.

Depending on the outcome of those two talks, get everyone together as a group and talk through the problems, as well as getting suggestions for what each person wants out of the game.

...at the end of the day, from the above example, you may find the problem player doesn't even really want to be part of the game. Or it may simply be a personality clash between her and yourself (and possibly others).

We had a situation in our game about a year or so back where a few people were really tecthy and getting on each others nerves (players and DM alike)...talking things through really helped, and now our group is running very well.

arrowhen
2010-09-06, 10:26 PM
I'd like to tell her that that sort of language is unacceptable in my house and if she can't control herself then she's no longer welcome in my house. I probably wouldn't, because as Peregrine said, that would essentially decimate the group. I say it to give an idea of how very mad I am about what she called my husband, and how very unacceptable I think that sort of language is.

OK, completely unsolicited personal advice here, feel free to ignore...

Different people have different standards of decorum. This includes things like word choice. To use an example that's probably pretty safe on an RPG forum: the word "geek" can be anything from a grievous personal insult to a value-neutral assessment of someone's interest and personality traits to a powerful statement of affection and solidarity.

While I might be extremely cautious about using potentially loaded words as a guest in someone's home, and it sounds like you might be too, the sad fact of the matter is that not everyone was raised on the same standards of politeness and respect.

Of course you have every right not to be subjected to insulting behavior in your own home. But if you don't tell her what behavior is unacceptable in your home, how is she supposed to know? You don't have to make a huge deal out of it, or turn it into an unnecessary confrontation; a simple "Please don't do that in my house" should suffice. Until you do that, it's a bit unreasonable to be angry at her when she fails to stop doing something she doesn't know bothers you.

Of course, if you tell her and she keeps doing it anyway... no amount of gaming is worth being deliberately disrespected in your own home.

Doomboy911
2010-09-06, 10:37 PM
Simple put her in her place, an anti-magic field means she can't be trigger happy. Thus she needs to rely on others for support, send them on a dungeon in which the walls can't be destroyed the monsters are many and far too weak to get any points from. So let her smash as much as she wants but it won't help the enemies will keep coming until she's willing to work with others to find a decent solution. Than reward her when she decides to work with others.

kyoryu
2010-09-06, 10:41 PM
Well that's just it. No one has been saying 'you're stupid' to her at all. All of us (save her husband) were new to the game when we started. Heck, Peregrine had to spend game after game reminding me I had bardic music. He even deliberately set up a part of one session specifically for me to use it, and then had to remind me of it. And I dread my next level-up because I have to pick more spells. My point is that we're not the kind of group to go 'haha that was dumb' to anyone.

I never got the impression that you did, and I apologize if it seemed like I was implying that. Based on your description (and I usually try to dig for the other side when hearing things like this), it really does sound like she's a drama queen AW. But she may have insecurities, and she may be the type of person that interprets any criticism as an attack. Especially if she's just looking for an excuse to go off.

So, while I seriously doubt that there's anything like that actually happening, that doesn't mean that she doesn't have the perception that she is being persecuted.


I'll admit, I know I'm biased against her. I'm trying to be neutral, but it's not easy. Especially not when she calls my husband a very rude name in my own house. I didn't call her out on it the first time, but I will if she ever does it again. I'd like to tell her that that sort of language is unacceptable in my house and if she can't control herself then she's no longer welcome in my house. I probably wouldn't, because as Peregrine said, that would essentially decimate the group. I say it to give an idea of how very mad I am about what she called my husband, and how very unacceptable I think that sort of language is.

There's no excuse for that. She's a guest in your home. I think that, at the minimum, you have the absolute right to reiterate that point and set boundaries on what will and will not be tolerated in your home. I'd recommend doing this in a non-aggressive manner, of course - just state that certain things are unacceptable and will not be tolerated from any guest in your home, no matter what. You may even wish to say this broadly, rather than "target" her specifically. Something like "hey, just so you know, in our home we don't really tolerate people that hurl insults at others. We don't do it, and we expect our guests to not do it. Be upset if you want, but we do not appreciate, and will not accept, that type of language." Set the standard, let the past go, and move on. And if she continues to do it, you're well within your rights to ask her to not come to your home. After all, you wouldn't tolerate a non-gaming guest doing the same thing, so why does gaming make it acceptable all of a sudden?

The other option, of course, is that you tolerate her rude behavior to keep the gaming group together. If you choose that, I just highly suggest that you explicitly make that decision, and remind yourself of that when she acts up. Even a combination may work - you'll tolerate her behavior up to a certain point, but no further.

Thurbane
2010-09-06, 10:42 PM
In regards to her insulting the DM/using inappropraite language: this kind of thing can really fester if not addressed...and it already seems to be. It can be hard to call people out on things said in the heat of the moment, but when someone steps over a line with namecalling, it's something you really have to try and address immediately. This kind of incident can get a lot worse when you dwell on it in silence.

You can chalk it up as a one off if you like (and save the admonishment for the event of another occurrence), but if the namecalling was really beyond what is acceptable, and it really bothered you, it might be best to bring it out into the open. Try to do it calmly, but make sure she understands that you were genuinely offended by what she said.

Lady Moreta
2010-09-07, 12:57 AM
The only way, in my experience, to handle situations like this is to talk it through. Ideally, this should consist of two (or three) talks: 1 on 1 with DM and problem player; group talk with DM and rest of group; group talk with everyone (DM, problem player and rest of group).

In the 1 on 1 talk, ask the player is she's happy at the table, if she really wants to be in the game, and if she's not happy, what her primary concerns are.

In the DM with rest of group talk, ask the group if they are having problems with this player, and if she is making the game less enjoyable for everyone else.

I like this :smallsmile: of course, I'm not the DM, but I do know my husband rather well :smalltongue: I know her husband has tried to calm her down and settle her from time to time. The warlock's player is very easy-going and doesn't seem to mind. But of course, none of us have ever asked him, so who knows what's going on inside his head.


Of course you have every right not to be subjected to insulting behavior in your own home. But if you don't tell her what behavior is unacceptable in your home, how is she supposed to know? You don't have to make a huge deal out of it, or turn it into an unnecessary confrontation; a simple "Please don't do that in my house" should suffice. Until you do that, it's a bit unreasonable to be angry at her when she fails to stop doing something she doesn't know bothers you.

Of course, if you tell her and she keeps doing it anyway... no amount of gaming is worth being deliberately disrespected in your own home.

Sorry, my bad. I explained that badly. What I meant was that I have let the first one go (well, I'm trying to at least). If I ever do it again, I will as politely as possible, tell her that I find that language offensive and it's not acceptable in my house (or directed at my husband). I would like to say that if she does it again, she's no longer welcome in my house. However, being truly hopeless at confrontation, I probably won't. So I'll definitely say something, I just probably wouldn't issue the 'shape up or ship out' ultimatum that I'd like to. If she left, her husband would most likely leave to, and I'd hate to ruin the group like that. :smallfrown: