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truekender
2010-09-06, 03:38 PM
Just a few questions on the Lyric Thaumaturge...

Is it worth it?

How does Sonic Might work? I've seen some foolish people think about applying it with spells that give sonic damage bonuses to attacks (+xd6) but that clearly doesn't work as in the Sonic Might description it adds damage to the spell. this would work for Sound Lance (SC), Shout, Greater Shout, Orb of Sound, etc - but not sonic weapon (SC). I guess with Sonic Weapon it could do 2d6 damage, but TO THE WEAPON you're casting the spell on, not to the bonus damage sonic weapon gives. The point of this? destroying a weapon while buffing it... not a good idea.

Does it take a standard action? It's a spell-like ability, but I can't see how it would work if it did - it's augmenting a sonic spell.

Does it work on Sonic spells that don't do damage? Song of Discord (regular effects + 5d6 sonic damage) for example... I think that it should, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't.

It could possibly be less of a headache to just give an inspire courage +1 here instead... (the class gives additional uses of bardic music so it'd fit). Not exactly an equivalent trade, but it's not too bad.


Kind of unorganized, but what I'm essentially asking is how sonic might works and also what could it be replaced with if I wanted to save the headache?

Ernir
2010-09-06, 04:08 PM
Just a few questions on the Lyric Thaumaturge...

Is it worth it?

Well, I like it for its intended purpose - making a Bard that's more of a caster and less of a singing stabber. Being able to grab a few spells from the Sor/Wiz list and not losing any CLs in the process can be a good deal.

Sonic Might, however, doesn't really... work. It is a SLA that specifies no activation time, so it defaults to a standard action. How this interacts with the casting time of the spell to which it is applied and with [Sonic] spells with non-hostile uses - is simply not explained.
I think it's unusable as written, and that you need to ask your DM. :smalltongue:

gorfnab
2010-09-06, 04:14 PM
Just a few questions on the Lyric Thaumaturge...

Is it worth it?

Only as a lead in to Sublime Chord or as a way to get a specific low level sorc/wiz spell.



How does Sonic Might work? I've seen some foolish people think about applying it with spells that give sonic damage bonuses to attacks (+xd6) but that clearly doesn't work as in the Sonic Might description it adds damage to the spell. this would work for Sound Lance (SC), Shout, Greater Shout, Orb of Sound, etc - but not sonic weapon (SC). I guess with Sonic Weapon it could do 2d6 damage, but TO THE WEAPON you're casting the spell on, not to the bonus damage sonic weapon gives. The point of this? destroying a weapon while buffing it... not a good idea.
Well there is nothing mentioned in the errata. The consensus I've seen on other threads about this is that Sonic Might does add Xd6 sonic damage to sonic spells that normally don't deal damage. Here is a list of spells that you could potentially apply Sonic Might too. Also note that the feat Born of Three Thunders will turn any spell with an acid/cold/electricity/fire descriptor that does damage into to an electricity/sonic spell.

Included are only Bard spells up to 6th level as well as Sorcerer/Wizard spells up to 6th level that a Lyric Thaumaturge could use their Spell Secret ability to obtain.

Player's Handbook

Animal Trance - Bard 2
Enthrall - Bard 2
Shatter - Bard 2
Shout - Bard 4
Greater Shout - Bard 6
Song of Discord - Bard 5
Sound Burst - Bard 2
Sympathetic Vibration - Bard 6

Complete Mage

Caterwaul - Bard 2
Channeled Sound Blast - Bard 5
Deafening Blast - Bard 3
Death's Call - Sorc/Wiz 1
Discordant Malediction - Bard 5
Interminable Echo - Bard 4
Painful Echoes - Bard 2
Resonating Agony - Bard 6
Resounding Thunder - Bard 4


Spell Compendium

Amplify - Bard 1
Cacophonic Burst - Bard 5
Cacophonic Shield - Bard 4
Celebration - Bard 4
Creaking Cacophony - Bard 3
Dirge - Bard 6
Disquietude - Bard 2
Dissonant Chant - Bard 2
Dissonant Cord - Bard 3
Distort Speech - Bard 1
Energy Spheres - Sorc/Wiz 4
Fugue - Bard 4
G'elsewhere Chant - Bard 3
Great Thunderclap - Sorc/Wiz 3
Haunting Tune - Bard 3
Herald's Call - Bard 1
Hymn of Praise - Bard 3
Infernal Threnody - Bard 3
Ironthunder Horn - Bard 1
Nightmare Lullaby - Bard 2
Orb of Sound - Sorc/Wiz 4
Orb of Sound, Lesser - Sorc/Wiz 1
Shatterfloor - Sorc/Wiz 3
Sonic Blast - Sorc/Wiz 1
Sonic Rumble - Sorc/Wiz 5
Sonic Whip - Bard 2
Sound Lance - Sorc/Wiz 3
Stone Shatter - Bard 4
Wounding Whispers - Bard 3




Does it take a standard action? It's a spell-like ability, but I can't see how it would work if it did - it's augmenting a sonic spell.
This is what the consensus is on what the fix should be. The expending of the extra use of bardic music for Sonic Might is included with the casting of the spell being modified. So basically no additional actions are required to add Sonic Might onto a spell being cast. However it is listed as an SP (which normally require a standard action to use), and without a listing in the errata you'll probably have to houserule the above fix in since otherwise this ability does not work as intended.



Does it work on Sonic spells that don't do damage? Song of Discord (regular effects + 5d6 sonic damage) for example... I think that it should, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't.
Again the consensus I've seen on other boards says that yes it would deal the extra sonic damage.



It could possibly be less of a headache to just give an inspire courage +1 here instead... (the class gives additional uses of bardic music so it'd fit). Not exactly an equivalent trade, but it's not too bad.
If you want to I guess. Generally I've seen builds that only take this class for 2 to 4 levels to get Captivating Melody and some bonus spells before leading into Sublime Chord. Although you could do a build like Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 4/ Sublime Chord 9 / Lyric Thaumaturge 1 to get Sonic Might and 9th level spells to place it on. Otherwise the common build I've seen using this class is Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8.

T.G. Oskar
2010-09-06, 04:49 PM
Just a few questions on the Lyric Thaumaturge...

Is it worth it?

How does Sonic Might work? I've seen some foolish people think about applying it with spells that give sonic damage bonuses to attacks (+xd6) but that clearly doesn't work as in the Sonic Might description it adds damage to the spell. this would work for Sound Lance (SC), Shout, Greater Shout, Orb of Sound, etc - but not sonic weapon (SC). I guess with Sonic Weapon it could do 2d6 damage, but TO THE WEAPON you're casting the spell on, not to the bonus damage sonic weapon gives. The point of this? destroying a weapon while buffing it... not a good idea.

Does it take a standard action? It's a spell-like ability, but I can't see how it would work if it did - it's augmenting a sonic spell.

Does it work on Sonic spells that don't do damage? Song of Discord (regular effects + 5d6 sonic damage) for example... I think that it should, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't.

It could possibly be less of a headache to just give an inspire courage +1 here instead... (the class gives additional uses of bardic music so it'd fit). Not exactly an equivalent trade, but it's not too bad.


Kind of unorganized, but what I'm essentially asking is how sonic might works and also what could it be replaced with if I wanted to save the headache?


Well, I like it for its intended purpose - making a Bard that's more of a caster and less of a singing stabber. Being able to grab a few spells from the Sor/Wiz list and not losing any CLs in the process can be a good deal.

Sonic Might, however, doesn't really... work. It is a SLA that specifies no activation time, so it defaults to a standard action. How this interacts with the casting time of the spell to which it is applied and with [Sonic] spells with non-hostile uses - is simply not explained.
I think it's unusable as written, and that you need to ask your DM. :smalltongue:

It works as intended. You expend a daily use of bardic music to add 1d6 points of sonic damage to spells with the sonic descriptor.

...Well, it could certainly use some errata, but that'd be the same as when you use a divine feat: you expend the daily use as part of the action. Think of it as Lyric Spell, or Metamagic Song: you expend the uses to modify the action (or in the case of Lyric Spell, based on the casting time of the spell). However, that is implied: you require a standard action to activate the ability.

Now, think that it doesn't say "on the next spell" either. That means you expend one use and permanently add 1d6 points of damage per spell level to "any spell with the [sonic] descriptor", so that means each time you cast a spell you gain the benefit once you hit 5th level of Lyric Thaumaturge.

Both, oddly, are legal by RAW. The only mention of duration means that your caster level (if any, else CL = HD) determines the duration of the spell in case of level-dependent duration. Sonic Might does not specify a duration...except "any", which means any spell with the descriptor, period. Once you cast it, Sonic Might fires off, but you are never specified with an ending duration for said effect.

Another is the damage and the spell effect. This means that sonic weapon (or even Wounding Whispers or Painful Echoes) get a nasty addition to damage. Note that it merely says you add damage based by spell level, but it never specifies whether the spell has to deal damage or not. The closest thing by RAW is added damage, which tends to work like sneak attack or skirmish or, if you notice, Dragonfire Inspiration. Since the closest thing is DFI, you could argue that it only works with attacks that deal damage (as DFI requires a successful attack); yet, it affects ALL spells with the sonic descriptor. So that means you take damage if, for example, you cast Lion's Roar which is an evocation damage and buffing spell. It's also 8th level, so that means enemies take between 7d8~10d8 plus 8d6 damage, and allies get the buffs plus 8d6 damage. And, since all you need is love 5th level Lyric Thaumaturge for it to work (it doesn't say it has to be Bard spells), you can pull that one off with some effort (say, levels in Cleric up to 8th level spells, or Sublime Chord with Arcane Disciple (Courage).

So yeah, it's flimsy enough in the description to determine the actual effect, but it can be both weak and insanely powerful. RAI works better on this matter, and the effect is implied: as a swift action (or as a free action as part of casting a spell, but usually that defaults to swift action), you can expend one daily use of your bardic music attempt to add 1d6 points of sonic damage per spell level to the next spell you cast with the [Sonic] descriptor. That isn't a bad trade, since you can use it to boost sonic spells with some extra oomph.

Also, more goodies: Sonic Might + Energy Substitution [Sonic]. Nothing like a Polar Ray, turned Sonic, dealing over 40d6 points of sonic damage (which is hardly resisted) at CL 17. Not that hard to get with Sublime Chord, mind you.

As for the rest of the abilities...the bonus spell slots and Spell Secret work very well. Lyric Thaumaturge over 6th level is kind of a waste of time unless you're going full Bard, but you effectively add new spells from the Sorc/Wiz spell list to your Bard list, making it a perfect complement to Sublime Chord. The absolute lowest entry requirement is mostly 4th level (you can get more uses of bardic music per day through Extra Music, and there are ways to cheese the skill requirements, so that means the spellcasting...wait, you can use Sanctum Spell or other requirements, so with extreme cheese you can enter at a level as low as 2nd, questionably so), which means you can become a much better spellcaster even though your bardic music abilities will take a hit. Captivating Melody is so-so, since enchantment spells are pretty easily defeated, but done the right way it can help a lot (makes stuff like Hold *, Charm * and Dominate * harder to resist). It loses steam at higher levels, because it progresses daily uses of bardic music but not the abilities. Otherwise, it's pretty darn close to the Bard's package: you retain your BAB, your skill list is shorter but you keep some of the good skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, all Knowledge skills, and Use Magic Device), your bardic music daily uses progress (most of the time they crash to a grinding halt), and your spellcasting progresses (usually, most Bard PrCs ditch spellcasting altogether; Seeker of the Song and Dirgesinger are two great offenders).

As for what to replace Sonic Might with...unless you're using the implied version, or speak with your DM, it's hard to replace. Mostly because it's one of the few worthwhile abilities of Lyric Thaumaturge aside from Spell Secret, and the class is plagued with dead levels which could use some more love. Perhaps allowing your levels of LT to count for the Inspire line would make it more attractive.

truekender
2010-09-06, 05:21 PM
Another is the damage and the spell effect. This means that sonic weapon (or even Wounding Whispers or Painful Echoes) get a nasty addition to damage. Note that it merely says you add damage based by spell level, but it never specifies whether the spell has to deal damage or not.

Obviously the spell doesn't need to do damage, but sonic might states that the spell deals +xd6 damage, not the effects of the spell - sonic weapon wouldn't work.

Bard uses Sonic weapon with sonic might expending two uses of bardic music.

Weapon is damaged by the spell (2d6 sonic damage) because of sonic might. Weapon gets the regular bonus to damage as per sonic weapon.

[[think of it this way: if there was a sonic armor spell, how would sonic might affect the spell? Obviously it would damage the target since the spell not the the effects of the spell deal +xd6 damage]]

Song of discord, however, targets enemies. The spell could deal 5d6 sonic damage (by expending 5 uses of bardic music for sonic might) in addition to making enemies attack one another.

This is actually an example of how it's the spell and not the effects that are modified by sonic might. Otherwise the enemies would be dealing +5d6 sonic damage to one another when they hit each other.

I don't think posting part of a SLA is against the OGL since it can't be used to create a character so...
"...you can expend a use of bardic music to add ld6 points of sonic damage per spell level to any spell with the sonic descriptor"

so we're adding damage to the spell, not enhancing the damage enhancement that the spell's effects give. So, once again, yes it's possible to add damage to a spell without damage but it will damage the target(s) of the spell. And it's perfectly reasonable to use sonic might with sonic weapon, but the weapon's the target of the spell - so you'd just be wasting bardic music to damage your weapon (though I guess you could use this to damage the weapon of an enemy, but there are more effective ways of doing this). Once more, it says that you "add" damage to the spell, not enhance/augment/modify damage. So if you were casting a 3rd level spell that does 1d6 sonic damage a round in an area sonic might would not increase it to 4d6 damage a round. Sonic might would add 3d6 damage as an additional effect to the spell.

regular version:
casting round: 1d6 sonic damage
other rounds: 1d6 sonic damage

Sonic might version:
casting round: 1d6 sonic damage + 3d6 sonic damage (sonic might using three bardic music uses)
other rounds: 1d6 sonic damage

Really the only ambiguity to Sonic might is if it takes a standard action to use or not.

@gorfnab
(the anger following is not directed at you, but at silliness in role playing)
I hate the sublime chord. Absolutely hate it. Overpowered and not really a bard anymore. Why not just play sorcerer? Oh wait, it's a sorcerer that gets d6 HD 4 skill points per level and can be given some serious class features (through other PRCs) on top of it all.

(begin rant)
I really think that characters should only have one PRC, it doesn't make sense to me that we can take more than one. PRCs are meant to be given when a character entirely focuses on a specific specialty (which is the prestige class) so it doesn't make sense to me why dms let players do 7 dips into prestige classes for the unique abilities offered at early levels. That's just nonsense from a roleplaying point of view. If it IS made to be allowed there should be multiclassing penalties for prestige classes (separate from non prestige classes) so if you have two prestige classes you'd incur experience penalty.

(end rant) sorry, I really dislike how role playing has become about optimization. I'm just wondering when role playing games were renamed as optimizing games. It doesn't make sense from a role playing point of view for this:

Enchanter 3/Master Specialist Enchanter 2/Mind Bender 1/...

You have focused specifically on becoming a master specialist in focusing the esoteric abilities of the school of enchantment.

You specifically focus on bending the minds of the weak....

Wait...

Apparently the rant didn't end when I said it did haha ^^