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Tael
2010-09-06, 07:52 PM
In a setting where the only magic items are rare artifacts, what changes would need to be made? How does the power level of classes shift?

JoshuaZ
2010-09-06, 07:59 PM
In a setting where the only magic items are rare artifacts, what changes would need to be made? How does the power level of classes shift?

One major issue is that melee classes become substantially weaker. This is especially an issue at higher levels.

FMArthur
2010-09-06, 08:00 PM
Before:
Casters <====|============> Noncasters

After:
Casters <==|==============> Noncasters

iDM
2010-09-06, 08:01 PM
I don't think that the power level of the characters or monsters would change much, as the monsters will not be able to have magic items either. However, one of the best advantages of casters-- the ability to craft magical items-- would either be awesomely overpowered or would have to be removed from the feat list.

Although if your characters will be facing a lot of monsters who don't or can't use magic items, then you may want to give characters the ability to gain extra powers (such as gaining set bonuses to certain skills or getting extra Extraordinary or Supernatural abilities) when they reach certain levels.

Ilmryn
2010-09-06, 08:01 PM
Issues will arise with DR. Also, AC will fall behind attack bonuses even more than it does in normal play. I suggest giving classes a AC bonus similar to the one in d20 modern.

The Rabbler
2010-09-06, 08:03 PM
well the artificer would be godly and any caster would completely destroy the world. Magic items exist to bring some semblance of balance between casters and everyone else. Removing them hurts the casters slightly and hurts the non-casters to the point of no comparison.

Generally, to limit magic items, people play low-magic campaigns. I've never played one of these campaigns, but an interesting way to limit magic might be to cut down on the casters' spells/day and limit them to 2 or 3 schools. But even then, if only for a few times each day, those casters would wreck encounters. You might also consider scrolls to instead be the key to finding new spells. Adventure a bunch and you find yourself a lot of random scrolls and now those spells can be cast by the wizard.

EDIT: also, I imagine that the ToB would become even more powerful. perhaps a player needs to visit the correct temple before being able to learn anything from a given discipline. Learning stuff Reshar-style.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 08:07 PM
Definitely changes the balance of casters versus non-casters, and not positively. Other than that, beware of monsters with SLA/Su abilities, as they become much harder to counter.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-06, 08:16 PM
Aside from the already stated "casters get even more powerful compared to warriors", certain fights are going to get far more difficult too.
Basically any creature with alignment based DR (good, evil, lawful etc) is going to be near impossible to defeat, either with melee or typical ranged attacks.

iDM
2010-09-06, 08:20 PM
Aside from the already stated "casters get even more powerful compared to warriors", certain fights are going to get far more difficult too.
Basically any creature with alignment based DR (good, evil, lawful etc) is going to be near impossible to defeat, either with melee or typical ranged attacks.

you could have feats that allow you to get the Su ability to have the weapons you weild bealignment-based.

Zore
2010-09-06, 08:21 PM
Oh and certain creatures become nigh impossible for completely non-magical melee to defeat. Casters, incorporeals, anything with DR, anything with flight and anything huge. If you don't account for ways to get the static magical bonuses everyone starts hitting on everything but a one and most monsters can full power attack. It works out better at lower levels, but after roughly level five or six a sizable gap arises.

Its even worse if there are casters in the party because lack of magical equipment doesn't hurt them nearly as bad.

Exthalion
2010-09-06, 08:23 PM
This is actually easier to do then you think and far less damaging. Just remove every magic item worth 15,000 gp or less. (Or whatever the limit is for the wish you are using.)

In this way, anything worth more then 15,000 gp has to be made by hand by powerful wizards who would rather not give up the xp. They cannot be purchased for gold or gems. It would take valuable planer currencies or major favors to get one.

Which had the nice effect of allowing your PC's to be rich enough to live like kings without buying higher level magic then you want them to have.

WarKitty
2010-09-06, 08:36 PM
What are you looking for in the campaign exactly? Are you looking for an overall low-magic campaign, or are you looking for a "your abilities only" feel?

herrhauptmann
2010-09-06, 08:46 PM
you could have feats that allow you to get the Su ability to have the weapons you weild bealignment-based.

Which feats are those? Pretty sure paladins get one, but beyond that I've got no idea

Calimehter
2010-09-06, 10:25 PM
Which feats are those? Pretty sure paladins get one, but beyond that I've got no idea

Paladins have the option to take Awesome Smite (CChamp??), a tactical feat that gives them the option to overcome DR of many kinds when they are using their Smite ability.

Of course, if you were *relying* on such an ability as your only means to defeat DR, you almost have to take other feats to give you extra smite attempts, and that can cut back on other nice things you might want to take with your feat slots.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-07, 12:07 AM
unearthed arcana has the rules for class based AC bonuses. It's also available at http://d20srd.org

herrhauptmann
2010-09-07, 12:14 AM
Paladins have the option to take Awesome Smite (CChamp??), a tactical feat that gives them the option to overcome DR of many kinds when they are using their Smite ability.

Of course, if you were *relying* on such an ability as your only means to defeat DR, you almost have to take other feats to give you extra smite attempts, and that can cut back on other nice things you might want to take with your feat slots.

Do other classes get something similar then? I ask in response to what iDM said.

ericgrau
2010-09-07, 02:00 AM
I don't think that the power level of the characters or monsters would change much, as the monsters will not be able to have magic items either.
Monsters have far fewer magic items and many special abilities that don't require them. This is a great way to screw up the game balance.

AC is a great deal dependent on magic items, as is weapon damage. Mages won't lose much in terms of spell power, only a little lower save DC, though they will have less durability in a long adventuring day.

My sig has a low magic item point system to give everyone many of the same abilities without putting them in item form. It covers AC, ability scores, and other stats, among other basics, but weapon damage and spell durability will still need items. As will any item granted utility special abilities, such as flight.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-07, 02:46 AM
In a setting where the only magic items are rare artifacts, what changes would need to be made?
You would need to ban all full, or near-full, spellcasting classes: anything that gets spells above level 4.

Dirty n Evil
2010-09-07, 03:56 AM
I was planning on creating a new campaign setting myself with a similar theme - not as extreme as the only magic items are artifacts, but that magic items themself are far rarer - and I'll tell you what I came up with.

First off, the artificer won't be an elligible class, obviously. But the main alteration I would suggest? Feats, give them out like candy. I was considering in my own campaign allowing them two out of every three levels, but then I was still going to allow some magic items.

The magic casting classes tend to get fewer feats than most classes anyway, and most of those are far more beneficial at higher levels because they require high levels of spellcasting for metamagic. This means that the warriors will be happy because he'll be wielding two bastard swords and leaping at every opponent like a rabid frog, the rogue will be happy because he'll be so slippery with a few extra bells and whistles to his sneak attack, while either a cleric or mage will be investing at least half of their feats in spellcasting feats they won't feel an immediate benefit to anyway.

Now, there is a flip side to this - to not cause too much of skew to CR, you have to remember to give these bonus feats to your monsters, as well. I would even venture so far as to say for the purposes of fair challenges, consider most monsters to be one challenge rating lower.

My hope was to create a bit more of a Conan-esque feel to my campaign. That the conflicts that the party won were because they were such formidable heroes, not simply because they carried around the best gear. Hopefully, my suggestion helped!

Ozymandias9
2010-09-07, 04:06 AM
I'll second Dirty and Evil, one of the best ways to make characters seem more heroic without heavily altering a given power level goal is to hand out more feats, possibly selectively to specific classes.

Curmudgeon also has a point, though I personally think he overshoots the goal. Unless you're looking at Fighters and Samurai, the fact that higher level spells will be less available makes the spell capacity of classes like Paladin and Ranger more valuable. My general policy on low magic games is to switch out full casting progression for Magewight and Adept casting progression (or the 3e bard progression if you're feeling generous), but leave the rest of the class features unchanged. Some tweaking is needed, but as long as you're looking at limited spell lists, 5th level spells are ok when competing against 4th level spells and somewhat more lucrative class features.

This goes right out the window when considering things like clericzilla, but I'd generally presume those out of place in a low magic setting anyways.

Shpadoinkle
2010-09-07, 04:19 AM
My hope was to create a bit more of a Conan-esque feel to my campaign. That the conflicts that the party won were because they were such formidable heroes, not simply because they carried around the best gear. Hopefully, my suggestion helped!

An E6 campaign would accomplish this pretty well.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-07, 04:40 AM
Curmudgeon also has a point, though I personally think he overshoots the goal.
OK, how about this alternative then? Spell component pouches don't exist, nor does Eschew Materials. (Retrieving any stored item for a spell is a move action.) Make trade in spell components outlawed except for agents of the state/church/other authority. Acquiring the components and keeping them in order will put a constraint on most spells. How are you going to get rose petals, or beach-grade sand, in the middle of winter?

Rixx
2010-09-07, 04:48 AM
Don't use the higher level monsters - simply advance the lower level ones via class levels or use them in greater numbers.

Kudaku
2010-09-07, 05:57 AM
I'm playing a favoured soul in a low-magic campaign right now, and I'd just like to second (third? fourth?) that the balance heavily favours classes with full casting progress since they can adjust for the lack of magic items with buffs. Paladins, Rangers and the like can compensate somewhat for the lack of magical goodies but rangers, barbarians and fighters are utterly shafted.

Also, AC will never really move beyond 20-24ish, which means that mooks become a higher threat and anyone beyond lvl 3-4 will reliably hit on pretty much every attack.

It's an interesting experience to play in it but as others have suggested - personally I'd impose an upper gold cap on magical items instead of removing them completely and/or play E6.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-07, 08:17 AM
In a setting where the only magic items are rare artifacts, what changes would need to be made? How does the power level of classes shift?

Melee classes suck even more. Casters are even more unstoppable gods. In short, they'll spend their time searching for and fighting over the artifacts, while laying waste to anything in their path.

Tiamet help if you if someone plays a caster with item crafting feats.

I have played many such games. They invariably ended up sucking badly. Either a result of imbalance, or a DM desperately adding to an ever growing ban list in hope of fixing all the broken stuff.

If you want to play low-magic, either play E6, or play a different system altogether.

Calimehter
2010-09-07, 08:43 AM
Do other classes get something similar then? I ask in response to what iDM said.

I'm not sure if they do.

In a pinch, Power Attack always helps overcome DR. :smallwink:

FelixG
2010-09-07, 08:47 AM
Your non casters will get wiped out almost every time

those fancy little CRs (as broken as they cna be at times) count on characters having things like magic items appropriate to their level to help them take on those critters.

Also:



Melee classes suck even more. Casters are even more unstoppable gods. In short, they'll spend their time searching for and fighting over the artifacts, while laying waste to anything in their path.

Tiamet help if you if someone plays a caster with item crafting feats.

I have played many such games. They invariably ended up sucking badly. Either a result of imbalance, or a DM desperately adding to an ever growing ban list in hope of fixing all the broken stuff.

If you want to play low-magic, either play E6, or play a different system altogether.

This is it right on the money, whenever i have played in games where the GM doesnt toss you magic items and you cant buy em it sucks...badly...

WarKitty
2010-09-07, 11:19 AM
The one lower-magic game I DM'd, I used a quasi gestalt system. Your straight hit-it-with-a-sword classes got gestalt with one side being fighter. Your sneaky types basically got their classes squished together so they gained abilities at a much faster rate, plus I made sure to give out feats to allow sneak attack on things normally not sneak attackable. That and made sure the magic items that *do* get dropped are melee-friendly (e.g. they are offered as a reward for helping a good dragon some amount of gold and a few scrolls of enchant armor).

ericgrau
2010-09-07, 01:39 PM
First off, the artificer won't be an elligible class, obviously. But the main alteration I would suggest? Feats, give them out like candy. I was considering in my own campaign allowing them two out of every three levels, but then I was still going to allow some magic items.

Feats don't replace magic items, they only give more of the things you already get from class levels and skew things even more.

Otodetu
2010-09-07, 02:15 PM
What is needed is to tailor the world to take in account the changes.
Let's say there is no item creation, and magic stuff is rare (I suggest leaving scrools and potions, removing that borders on silly.), this leads to running a standard encounter based champaign unadvisable, and the effect of powerful monsters on the world becomes far more serious.
Players will aslo become mad for xp, as the only way left to improve is via levels, but with higher levels they soon meet more powerful challenges, leading to a downwards spiral where they become weaker and weaker as they level, yet are very powerful compared to "the world".

As a world building challenge you will find that it limits you and at the same time gives you so much to work with, and it is easy to challenge a group of martial characters in a low magic world, very easy.

It can create a very real world (with some effort put into it) that will be great for encouraging role-play, but the few magical items available tend to gather in the hands of the players, making them very powerful when pitted against item-deprived npc's, and underwhelming when pitted against monsters that have taken into account a certain (high) level of wealth, not to mention that items might start to collect in the hands of one player, maybe just because what the players happen to find is suited for only one player. (Avoid giving out "tailor fit" items that fit a certain player and such, really breaks immersion.)


As pointed out earlier, limit spellcasters, and put the ones that need to be there in high positions as they should be, the king\queen is a powerful divine\arcane caster, and has a magical sidekick, and so on.

A group with martial adepts and casters might work out well, but connect a certain stigma and feeling of responsibility on the shoulders of the casters.
Don't go over level 10-12 in levels.