Tanning Mechanic: Triceratops Hide Armor!

[MarkusWolfe]

Alright, I was doing some thinking the other day about characterizing a barbarian, specifically a habit of butchering and roasting the meat of any encounters he considers edible, and this wondrous idea came to me: Wouldn't it be great if you could make armor from the hides of monsters you have slain? That would be better than normal armors of their type?

(Retracing thought process I went through)

Well, what would the mechanics be? Sure, skinning a beast could be done on a survival check, but how many beasts do I need to skin to get a full Hide Armor? I go to my usual D&D source, and read this little gem on Dragonhide:


Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.

Right.....most creatures have hides that you can't make mail or plate out of, so I'll just stick to that first bit. If I skin a quadruped one size category larger than me, I can get a masterwork Hide armor, or Leather, Studded or not. The number of armors I can get doubles every time I move up a size category.

But how do I determine the AC of the armor? Well, it's the AC bonus provided by the treated animal hide....perhaps it should be a portion of the creature's Natural AC? Yes! The standard armors made from animal skins are Leather, Studded Leather and Hide, which have AC bonuses of 2,3 and 3 respectively. They're normally made of cow leather, so they're portions of a cow's Natural AC. I tried to find a stat block for cows; I failed, but I found one for bison, which the source said could be substituted for any almost any large herding animal, so they're effectively the same as a cow. A bison has a Natural AC of 4. Now, presuming the only difference between Leather armor and Studded Leather armor is 5 pounds of metal studs that increase AC by 1 but also inflict a -1 penalty, the formula for products of this mechanics should be as follows:

Let z = Natural AC bonus of animal whose skin is used

Leather AC = z*0.5
Studded Leather AC = 1 +(z*0.5)
Hide AC = z*0.75

So, if I skinned a triceratops (a huge, which is 2 sizes larger than medium, quadruped with Natural AC 11), I could have an armorer produce masterwork 2 Hide armors with AC bonus of 8. Now, this is the same AC as a Full Plate, and the only differences between a Mithral Full Plate and a masterwork Hide Armor made from triceratops is that the Masterwork Hide has a -2 Armor penalty, and the Mithral Full Plate has a -3 Armor penalty, and the differences in hardness and hitpoints. Considering that a triceratops is a CR 9 creature, I don't think that this is going to be a game breaker. For a good 5 levels or more, the only thing I could the mechanic for is to make a little extra money from the armorer. And I'd probably burn that money at later levels having some NPC imbue all the effects from my old armor onto my new armor.

Now, I'll go over this with my GM if I ever find one, but in the meantime here are all my questions:

1. How much of a creature's DR and SR (Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance) should the armor get? Should I use the same formulas as Ac, or different formulas for each?
2. Same as above for elemental resistances. Also, if creature has immunity to an element, does armor grant immunity to the element or large resistance to the element?
3. How should I determine the Hardness and Hitpoints of the armors?
4. In addition to tough skin, some creatures have large, bony plates that can probably be turned into Breastplates, Half Plates and Full Plates. For example, the Tarrasque. I think I'd use the mechanics I already developed for the underbelly and sides, but what mechanics should be used on the bony plates?
5. How much should each armor cost if I supply the materials?

If you have any other constructive criticism, feel free to share it.

Oh, and I almost forgot-Edition 3.5

[Galileo]

I don't think hide armour should grant DR or SR. And in the Draconomicon, the origin of that quote on armour making, it says that the armour retains the original beast's elemental resistance, but the character doesn't benefit from it.

[Aran Banks]

My concept of DR is that it comes from more than the skin of the animal. It's what their body tissue is made out of. And SR comes from a beasts' inherent magic powurz. Which should probably all leave (under normal circumstances) after it's been skinned and cured.

Energy resistance could provide half its benefit (max 20), and Immunity could give Resistance 20. They make sense, since your resistance comes from your skin (I mean, that's MY train of thought).

Hardness or HP... do it just as normal for leather armor.

Cost = no idea.

[MarkusWolfe]

SR I understand not getting passed on....but I feel that a portion, if even a small one, of the DR should be passed on. I mean, a tarrasque has pretty thick skin (forgive me, but I can't think of any good examples), that must contribute to its DR to some extent. And of course, DR/-, DR/Epic, DR/Material and DR/Magic should be carried on more easily than DR/Alignment....I'll get back to this tomorrow.

Thanks for the help with the elements. Oh, before I go, 3 other questions:

What CAN'T I flay by definition, how do I determine Survival check for flaying, and how do I determine weight of the armor?

[Aran Banks]

You really want DR? Fine, be that way. :smallwink:

I'd do the same thing here as Energy Resistance, actually, since DR is really just a re-flavored Energy Resistance.

The survival check should beeeee... umm... I dunno. 10 + 1 per 2 points of energy resistance (granted), +1 per point of DR (unless it's overcome by 2 damage types. Then 1/2. If it's overcomable by 3 damage types, then 1/3, etc.), and +1 per point of AC provided.

[MarkusWolfe]

Cool, thanks. Now when the sun rises tomorrow and all the other people wake up, we can truly get this underway.

[Ashtagon]

SR I understand not getting passed on....but I feel that a portion, if even a small one, of the DR should be passed on. I mean, a tarrasque has pretty thick skin (forgive me, but I can't think of any good examples), that must contribute to its DR to some extent. And of course, DR/-, DR/Epic, DR/Material and DR/Magic should be carried on more easily than DR/Alignment....I'll get back to this tomorrow.

Thanks for the help with the elements. Oh, before I go, 3 other questions:

What CAN'T I flay by definition, how do I determine Survival check for flaying, and how do I determine weight of the armor?

Seeing as how dragonskin armour doesn't pass on any of a dragon's resistances, or any other draconic abilities (the only benefit of this process under RAW is that the armour is masterwork), and you are extending those rules, I see no reason to add extra benefits. Indeed, you don't even get a meaningful amount of extra AC (you can't make "masterwork dragonskin leather armour").

fwiw, when first introduced, hide armour was fluffed as being made from woolly mammoth, rhino, elephant, or other animals that had notably thick skin. You didn't make hide armour by using more cow. Some sources also allowed for padded armour to be fluffed as "lots of animal furs".

As for making armour, I'd make it a Craft (leather-working) check, same DC as the armour you are duplicating, and depending on the source animal, it can produce either leather or hide armour (or padded).

As a flavourful alternative, I'd let the player substitute Survival for this check, but because the leather won't have been tanned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning), it will decompose, becoming useless after a month, and quite smelly and unhygienic the whole time.

[Aran Banks]

My armor has a fever... and the only medicine is MORE COW

[MarkusWolfe]

Seeing as how dragonskin armour doesn't pass on any of a dragon's resistances, or any other draconic abilities (the only benefit of this process under RAW is that the armour is masterwork), and you are extending those rules, I see no reason to add extra benefits. Indeed, you don't even get a meaningful amount of extra AC (you can't make "masterwork dragonskin leather armour").

Well, without those benefits, the mechanic doesn't have any beneficial uses other than a couple of cheaper masterworks because you supplied the materials, and a little extra coin here and there.

[/QUOTE]
fwiw, when first introduced, hide armour was fluffed as being made from woolly mammoth, rhino, elephant, or other animals that had notably thick skin. You didn't make hide armour by using more cow. Some sources also allowed for padded armour to be fluffed as "lots of animal furs".
[/QUOTE]

Never paid attention to Padded armor, but I always heard that Hide armor was fluffed as boiled leather.



As for making armour, I'd make it a Craft (leather-working) check, same DC as the armour you are duplicating, and depending on the source animal, it can produce either leather or hide armour (or padded).

As a flavourful alternative, I'd let the player substitute Survival for this check, but because the leather won't have been tanned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning), it will decompose, becoming useless after a month, and quite smelly and unhygienic the whole time.

Alright, that's to be implemented. I personally would flay the beast myself and turn it over to a master leatherworker, but this was bound to come up sooner or later, and I might need to make some temporary winter clothes from shaggy beasts anyways.

[Zaydos]

Fluff for hide armor is that it is either several layers of leather armor or a single layer of hide from an animal like a rhino or an elephant. The reason these these animals have such high natural armor is because their skin is too hard and stiff to make good leather armor.

Also there is Mammoth (or mastodon) Leather (or is it hide) armor in Races of Stone as an exotic armor.

[MarkusWolfe]

Ah, but we all forget: fluff is just fluff. If it looks like it's going to get tangled up in the whirring gears of mechanics, we can easily move it out of the way. That said, if that bit of fluff is important to you, you can just skip this as it is homebrew, or come up with your own solution.

I also once saw Rhino Hide (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rhino_Hide). I ran a rhinoceros skin (rhinoceros has a natural AC of 7)through my mechanics, and if we treat the +2 enhancement bonus as...not enhancement, but built into the armor, it fits perfectly. The improved Armor Penalty and bonus damage on charge attacks are clearly from magic, and not the hide itself.

[hamishspence]

Maybe you could draw ideas from 4E. In that, armor with high enhancement bonuses, can also have a higher armor bonus "built in" and this is called Masterwork. And there are several masterwork armor types.

PHB:
Hide armor: +3
Darkhide armor: +4 (must have at least a +4 enhancement bonus)
Elderhide armor: +5 (must have at least a +6 enhancement bonus)

Darkhide is "cured in fire and infused with shadow"
Elderhide "involves scouring with elemental forces"

Adventurers Vault extends the list.

Dark Sun Campaign Setting does use different types of creature, rather than different processes of creation. Tembo hide armour, made from the skin of a tembo, is much weaker than Rochide armour (Athasian roc) and Nightmare armor (Nightmare Beast).

So- there is precedent for the idea that the skins of tougher creatures, make better armor.

[MarkusWolfe]

Maybe you could draw ideas from 4E. In that, armor with high enhancement bonuses, can also have a higher armor bonus "built in" and this is called Masterwork. And there are several masterwork armor types.

PHB:
Hide armor: +3
Darkhide armor: +4 (must have at least a +4 enhancement bonus)
Elderhide armor: +5 (must have at least a +6 enhancement bonus)

Darkhide is "cured in fire and infused with shadow"
Elderhide "involves scouring with elemental forces"

Adventurers Vault extends the list.

Dark Sun Campaign Setting does use different types of creature, rather than different processes of creation. Tembo hide armour, made from the skin of a tembo, is much weaker than Rochide armour (Athasian roc) and Nightmare armor (Nightmare Beast).

So- there is precedent for the idea that the skins of tougher creatures, make better armor.

Interesting. I'm no fan of 4.e, but I'll admit they're onto something here.

Mechanics thus far:
Let x = Elemental Resistance of animal whose skin is used
Let y = DR of animal whose skin is used
Let z = Natural AC bonus of animal whose skin is used
Let a = Elemental Resistance of armor produced
Let b = DR of armor produced
Let c = AC bonus of armor produced

a = x*0.5 (max 20)
b = y*0.5
Padded c = z*0.25
Leather c = z*0.5
Studded Leather c = (z*0.5) + 1
Hide c = z*0.75
Survival Check to Skin Animal = 10 + a + y + z
Craft Check: 10 + c

Now, all that's left is mechanics for hardness and hitpoints, though somethink it should be left as is. There's a D&D club with multiple DMs going on this Sunday at my University, so I'll present this mechanic the DM as it is at that time.

[DracoDei]

Came to this thread to blindly link to my work on this subject (sorta...) but now that I am here I might as well actually read and respond... :smallwink:

Ok, first off, I wouldn't go blindly giving out Masterwork quality to everything... dragons are probably just supposed to be THAT cool, especially in the armor-making department... go ahead and require that the masterwork quality be made separately for most things... also note that the AC on Dragonhide is NOT higher... I think the assumption is that no matter how thick the average scales are, you have to start off with picking the smaller ones, or actually grind them down thinner in extreme cases to make the armor so one can actually move in it.


1. How much of a creature's DR and SR (Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance) should the armor get? Should I use the same formulas as Ac, or different formulas for each?
2. Same as above for elemental resistances. Also, if creature has immunity to an element, does armor grant immunity to the element or large resistance to the element?

Going to combine these two questions into one answer. Basically for mundane tanning, I wouldn't give ANY qualities beyond AC (and even that is pushing it and re-writing the rules on Dragonhide... but it would be hypocritical in the extreme for me to say you shouldn't be daring in innovation). What I WOULD do, is develop rules for giving the resulting armor an extra value that can only be counted towards the cost of the materials needed to enchant it with specific enchantments. Critter had fire resistance? Great! Multiply the amount of that by 100 (or something) and that is how much it counts towards the cost of materials to enchant it with stuff to give fire resistance... Full-on immunity counts as 10,000 or something... but maybe say that only 1/2 of the cost of the materials for a given enchantment can be paid this way... otherwise you can enchant red dragon scales for only the XP cost (or if you are a total munchkin a profit). This shouldn't necessarily increase the DCs or working times either, because most of that cost probably come from the requirement to go out and kill (or if you are really cool, domesticate and farm) an extremely rare and dangerous creature.

But what I WOULD say is that some of those materials costs, regardless of the source creature could be defrayed by doing odd and extraordinary tanning procedures... IE higher DC, greater cost used for calculating crafting times... etc... basically, go look up the phrase "vertical monopoly" on wikipedia or something, and try to really comprehend why it is considered unfair competition. Well, the PCs should be able to do that with magic item creation if the whole party is tuned towards it.

Note that both of these things make the crafting process feel more rewarding in all probability... the player is more involved.


3. How should I determine the Hardness and Hitpoints of the armors?

Well, Dragonhide (which should be your upper limit for anything short of the terrasque) has 10 of each, and a table HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm) entitled "Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points" tells us that leather or hide has a hardness of 2 and 5 hitpoints per inch of thickness. So with those as your two data points (for bison and dragon respectively) you should be able to do some math and come up with a curve fit (but make sure to list your assumptions for the dragon datapoint you are using).


4. In addition to tough skin, some creatures have large, bony plates that can probably be turned into Breastplates, Half Plates and Full Plates. For example, the Tarrasque. I think I'd use the mechanics I already developed for the underbelly and sides, but what mechanics should be used on the bony plates?

Well, unless it is thick enough that you can literally carve all the curves you need out of it (Maybe with a FEW hard butt-joints, such as near the shoulders and down the sides of a breast-plate), then that is going to run into problems from my POV, especially with non-humanoid-shaped source creatures.


5. How much should each armor cost if I supply the materials?
For mundane crafting, the materials cost 1/3 of the cost of the final product, so you are getting 33.333% off if you go by the book. HOWEVER, see my comments above.


Anyway, what I came here for originally... one of the first threads I ever started (perhaps THE first) was for an undead (a template) made from taxidermied skins. It was well received, and Survival didn't come into it at all (then again, the assumption was that for the magic to work, it had to be artistically excellent as taxidermy (minus the posing and such, since it is just a skin, with all the cut lines stitched up, rather than your extracting of square feet of hide). Here is the most relevant portion of it, take it as you will...

The corpse must be first be expertly prepared with a Craft[Taxidermist] (Heal may be substituted at a -5 penalty). The DC depends on the size and if the creator wishes to include a tongue. It must then be tanned using rare reagents and oils. The DCs (for the skinning only) and costs (for the tanning only) are given in the following table:

Fine..........DC 30 50 gp
Diminutive..DC 25 100 gp
Tiny..........DC 20 200 gp
Small.........DC 15 500 gp
Medium......DC 20 1,000 gp
Large.........DC 20* 2,000 gp
Huge.........DC 20* 5,000 gp
Gargantuan DC 20* 20,000 gp
Colossal.....DC 20* 80,000 gp

Tongue +3 DC

*Note that while the DC does not continue to increase above medium size the time required does.

Tanning requires 3 days regardless of size.
Feel free to tell me I did it all wrong... I doubt that particular part of things was what people were paying the most attention to when they were critiquing the template.


And as part of my ongoing effort to make the homebrew forums more wikipedia like, here is a LINK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=44544).
Note that it is part of a series, but the other ones belong in the butchery thread, not the skinning thread... so I will probably see y'all over there... at some point (since that is going to require collecting bits and pieces from about 6 different threads of mine and I am low on energy at the moment).