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View Full Version : Ranger v.s Bard v.s Rogue



Doomboy911
2010-09-06, 10:19 PM
Within the next few weeks I'll be joining a new campaign and in the limited time that I've played D&D I found the Bard to work. He can do a little bit of everything but as I head into the new campaign I'm not sure if I should play as one. Since the DM banned Monks (we're forgiving him for it and it was my first choice) I can either play be the Bard or mix things up. Since he's starting us at level five I'm curious as to whether the Bard grows stronger at level five or not. I'm thinking I could be the Ranger and thus be the parties leader with my tracking skills and general balance, or I can be the team's scout playing as a Rogue searching the area ahead like a Ranger might but without being much of a fighter.

Part of my intention is to become a Shadowdancer should I be a Rogue or a Bard but what prestige classes does a Ranger have? And which of these three classes do you find to be the best?

Doomboy911
2010-09-06, 10:27 PM
Also what races are best for these classes?

Aran Banks
2010-09-06, 10:35 PM
The Ranger = No. They're not good, and especially not compatible with Shadowdancer.

The Bard = OK. Their goodies get progressively weaker, and the whole "singing" schtick conflicts with the "being really quiet" schtick.

The Rogue = Good. Their focus is similar to that of the shadowdancer, and they have goodies that stay useful. The redundancy of Evasion isn't cool (since it's not like Uncanny Dodge where you can get IMPROVED EVASION YEAH BABY!!!), but whatever. That's my only big problem.

I'd actually recommend 3-4 levels of rogue and 1-2 levels of fighter for better BAB and more feats (getting those prereqs out of the way). Having levels of both will also balance your Fort and Will for the early levels.

Ajadea
2010-09-06, 11:19 PM
Actually, Complete Mage lets you trade out a redundant Evasion for Spell Reflection, which is actually pretty nice.

Coidzor
2010-09-06, 11:20 PM
Bard: PrC out. Specialize in one or two areas.

Ranger: PrC out and hope you have spell compendium. Try for wild shape variant and/or a swift hunter build with scout levels. Wet yourself if you have all of that available and can play a Mystic Ranger. Make love to your DM if you can do all that and Sword of the Arcane Order. Decide what to do after you hit level 10. Use stat boosters to make up for MAD and don't use things that depend upon saves but sparingly.

Rogue: PrC and dips.

How much Shadowdancer do you want? I don't really see it for non-Rogues, and even then I don't see that much of it, but that might just be me. Even for a Ranger, which can also enter at level 8 (actually, all of them can, without bard or other cheese), which doesn't really have a whole lot of spellcasting to lose out on

El Dorado
2010-09-07, 12:03 AM
Don't see bard + shadowdancer. Their class features are at cross purposes.

Ranger + shadowdancer could be an interesting, if unconventional, combo.

Rogue + shadowdancer is more vanilla but probably works the best.

ericgrau
2010-09-07, 01:44 AM
Full BAB and less reliance on situational damage (they lose a +2 or +4 but keep full BAB) means the ranger will probably do the most damage of the 3. But that doesn't seem to be what you're interested in. I think you can pull off everything you're interested in with a single build.

Gnome rogue 1 / ranger 1 / bard X / shadowdancer 1. I'd leave out ranger 1 and get the track feat but then you need to get survival as a class skill some other way. Horizon walker is one option, and it can be used to boost your move silently and/or hide. But it takes another feat. The rogue dip is to get trap finding and disable device as a class skill. Bard X gives illusions, invisibility, etc. So now with skills you only need 1 skill point per rank for the first 4-5 ranks, then after that you need 2 skill points per level to max out disable device and survival. Search, hide, move silently, spot and listen are 5 more skill points per level, for a total of 9 (but less on your early levels). Plus a little more for pre-reqs and any other skills you might want. Doable with the bard's 6+int per level.

Now you are the party's trapmonkey, tracker and scout (with at least two ways to become invisible even). For combat I'd try illusions, glibness, etc. to avoid combat and/or the bard's good combat spells like glitterdust, haste, slow, etc. Zone of silence is a good long lasting stealth spell too so you can cast without being noticed. Songs and other +X buffs are really only good before combat, I wouldn't use them during the actual fight. In fact, they're so minor I really see no conflict at all with shadowdancer. You even get perform.

From there other options you may branch into include magic item creation, loremaster 2 (for double bardic knowledge) and other skills. You'll want a good int and dex for the skillmonkey roles and maybe a good charisma depending on which spells you pick. Illusions, invisibility, glibness and haste don't really need charisma, except for the minimum of 10 + spell level. Glitterdust does need it.

Good equipment for stealth includes armor of shadow & silent moves, which you could craft as a bard if you know invisibility and silence by the way. Lens of detection, eyes of the eagle and goggle of minute seeing are nice wondrous items which you could also craft if you want.

Vemynal
2010-09-07, 01:51 AM
Ok since everyone giving high end advice and you sound new I'm gonna give some simple advice

instead of the rogue, go with Beguiler. Think of it as the Rogue equivalent of a Bard. You can find it in the PHB2

As for Ranger look up wildshape varient

This link gives some estimates of the power levels of different classes. Tier 1 is best, tier 6 is nearly unplayable

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Cirrhosis
2010-09-07, 09:12 AM
Bard plus druid can get to shadowdancer without much difficulty, and 1 level of bard, 1 level of druid, 2 levels of shadowdancer, and 6 more levels of bard or druid (or both) can get you to fochlucan lyrist in complete adventurer.

It has some stringent entry requirements, but every level gives full BAB, +1 casting to both a divine and arcane class, and progression of bardic music and bardic lore. It's designed for a druid/bard with a rogue dip, but shadowdancer gives uncanny dodge and hide in plain sight instead of trap finding and 1d6 sneak attack for your two levels.

Person_Man
2010-09-07, 09:32 AM
Bard is your strongest choice if optimized correctly, followed by Rogue, followed by Ranger. Although if you're playing in an un-optimized group, they're all roughly equal.

Shadowdancer is a trap. It has no offensive abilities, doesn't progress spells or Bardic Music, and has Dodge and Mobility are horrible wastes of feats. If you want Hide in Plain Site, you can get it with the Dark template (which can be purchased with a magic collar for a reasonable price, Tome of Magic), Stalker of Kharesh 4 (a good Ranger PrC, Book of Exalted Deeds), Paladin 6 (Shadow Cloak Knight sub level, Champions of Valor web enhancement), Champions of Valor web enhancement), Hellbreaker 1 (Fiendish Codex II), or Warlock or Dragonfire Adept 1 with a couple of feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352).

Noneoyabizzness
2010-09-07, 10:19 AM
bard shadowdancer seems like 2e Blade kit with a bunch of shadow based skillis slipped in. not a bad idea but full shadowdancer seems a waste

I see bard/shadowdancer5/and then either shadowsmith or shadowblade 10 being a fun mage killing machine.

true_shinken
2010-09-07, 10:24 AM
The Ranger = No. They're not good,
Sword'Shape Mystic Ranger and Swift Hunter would like to have a word with you, sir.

and especially not compatible with Shadowdancer
Why? Shadowdancer lacks in the offensive territory. With Spell Compendium and/or the aforementioned ACFs/feats, Rangers get a ton of offense.

To the OP: I like Ranger/Bard quite a lot, being a Harper fan. In your situation, I'd probably go for that - and the Harper Paragon prestige class, with it's tasty tasty Favored Enemy (evil).

Bard is the most powerful option you mentioned, but it meshes badly with Shadowdancer, since all your spells have vocal components for starters and let's not forget Bardis Music. Also, Bard has a lot of scaling abilities (mainly spellcasting and inspire courage) that Shadowdancer does not advance.

Rogue is the intended Shadowdancer entry, so it should work. If you optimze your damage a bit before going into Shadowdancer, you'll do just fine - bu that might be kinda hard with all those feat requirements.



It has some stringent entry requirements, but every level gives full BAB, +1 casting to both a divine and arcane class, and progression of bardic music and bardic lore. It's designed for a druid/bard with a rogue dip, but shadowdancer gives uncanny dodge and hide in plain sight instead of trap finding and 1d6 sneak attack for your two levels.

Shadowdancer does not get sneak attack, no.

gorfnab
2010-09-07, 01:19 PM
These may help with whatever one you choose or may help in deciding which one you would want to play.
Ranger Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621.0) and Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0)
Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350)
Bard Handbook
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)

As Vemynal said Beguiler is another option that may be worth looking into.
Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0)

Kaww
2010-09-07, 01:35 PM
These may help with whatever one you choose or may help in deciding which one you would want to play.
Ranger Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621.0) and Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0)
Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350)
Bard Handbook
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)

As Vemynal said Beguiler is another option that may be worth looking into.
Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0)

Your links seem to be broken...

Doomboy911
2010-09-07, 03:15 PM
I'll probably run with ranger but now I need to find a good mount any ideas on what has a good climbing ability?

ericgrau
2010-09-07, 04:49 PM
Actually shadowdancer doesn't seem to bad given the ability summon a shadow. The shadow can both scout while immune to most attacks and give an enemy a cumulative -2 AB and -2 damage every round as a touch attack, or possibly kill foes that don't rely on strength. You lose sneak attack progression and only have mid BAB, but your enemy gets at least as gimped on AB, if not more. Everything else is fairly close to what a rogue gets plus a couple minor spells that could be replicated with magic items and maybe UMD.

I remember playing a sorcerer that loved empowered rays of enfeeblement (among other spells) and watched them neuter major foes so that they were no longer hurting my allies so much. They would miss a lot, or do less damage even when they did hit. It adds up from multiple attacks. Even if it's only a d6 essentially getting it as a free action every round doesn't sound too shabby.

I don't know any climbing mounts off the top of my head but their are a ton of flying mounts in the monster manual. Griffons, hippogriffs, pegasus, nightmare, etc.

Cirrhosis
2010-09-07, 07:49 PM
Shadowdancer does not get sneak attack, no.

Yeah. that's why i said "instead of."

Aran Banks
2010-09-07, 07:54 PM
@true_shinken: ACFs?...
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff210/Dfriendz/DERP.png

You're right, my bad. Actually didn't think about that at all. And lol @ Wildshape Ranger Shadowdancer.

"Hey, what's that coming out of OH DEAR GOD IT'S A DIRE BEAR!!!"

gorfnab
2010-09-07, 11:05 PM
Your links seem to be broken...
Yeah BG was having issues earlier today. Seem to be working now though.

gorfnab
2010-09-07, 11:12 PM
I'll probably run with ranger but now I need to find a good mount any ideas on what has a good climbing ability?
Climbdog from Arms and Equipment Guide has a 40ft climb speed. However you would need a 3HD+ for a medium size one or 5HD+ for a large one if you want to use it as a mount.

cupkeyk
2010-09-07, 11:58 PM
I'll probably run with ranger but now I need to find a good mount any ideas on what has a good climbing ability?

Why climb? The best mount is the dire hawk from races of the wild. Assumes you're a halfling though.

Doomboy911
2010-09-08, 05:53 PM
Just found out that we'll be playing forgotten realms, now I'm trying to find a good animal companion that will work for a mount any idea for being able to fly or climb?

Flickerdart
2010-09-08, 06:11 PM
Giant Eagles are good stuff. See if you can just slap the winged (Savage Species), half-fey (Fiend Folio) or half-dragon (Monster Manual) templates on whatever beast tickles your fancy for instant wings.

true_shinken
2010-09-08, 10:31 PM
Just found out that we'll be playing forgotten realms, now I'm trying to find a good animal companion that will work for a mount any idea for being able to fly or climb?

Living in Forgotten Realms is every Ranger's wet dream.
Find a copy of Dragon Magazine 336. Read Mystic Ranger. Drown yourself in it's awesomeness.
Look at Champions of Valor. Take the Shooting Star substitution level. Laugh as you suddenly become even more awesome. Now, look at the feat section. Take Sword of Arcane Order. Bitch slap your party arcanist when you realize you have as many slots as him, can cast the same spell while having full base attack, more skill points, a better skill list, more hit points and actual class feature.
Now, dance like a maniac. Because dancing is nice.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-08, 10:40 PM
Ok since everyone giving high end advice and you sound new I'm gonna give some simple advice

instead of the rogue, go with Beguiler. Think of it as the Rogue equivalent of a Bard. You can find it in the PHB2

As for Ranger look up wildshape varient

This link gives some estimates of the power levels of different classes. Tier 1 is best, tier 6 is nearly unplayable

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Ruining virgin player's eyes with teirs. :smallsigh:

Greyfell
2010-09-09, 09:03 AM
as much as I dislike the boiling down of everything into those tiers.... they are essentially correct. But only for solo characters trying to singlehandedly take out an encounter.

This is a 'team' game after all. Your not a one-man army... your part of a unit.

Having said that, if your DM allows Mystic Ranger etc etc... go for it. It's a huge improvement, even if he doesn't let you go cheddar with sword of the order or other spell list expanding feats.

Doomboy911
2010-09-11, 10:52 PM
I agree it is a team game but as the Ranger I'd do a majority of the scouting ahead so the odds of me getting into an encounter alone are very high.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-12, 01:37 AM
Shadowdancer is a trap. It has no offensive abilities, doesn't progress spells or Bardic Music, and has Dodge and Mobility are horrible wastes of feats.
I'd dispute the "trap" assessment, but I can't argue with the rest.

If you want Hide in Plain Site, you can get it with the Dark template (which can be purchased with a magic collar for a reasonable price, Tome of Magic),
That's really like saying if you want an Aston Martin, you can buy a VW Beetle for less.

The Shadowdancer (or Assassin) Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight works whenever you're within 10' of any sort of shadow. Blade of grass shadow? Check. Shadow of a flying enemy swooping in to attack out of the sun? You don't even need that, because the grains of sand on the ground are providing enough shadow for you to Hide.

The Dark Creature template (or Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis) HiPS isn't quite as spiffy. You've got to be in cover/concealment. And that HiPS just flat fails to work if there's bright light around you. On a sunny day, the Shadowdancer can Hide with every step across grass, sand, or pretty much anything except a mirror-flat surface (and even then, if they're traveling with companions). The person with the Collar is frantically trying to look in all directions because they're completely exposed, and guaranteed to stay that way until sunset. Oh, sure, they can get a Deeper Darkness spell cast on something to dim things down to shadowy levels, but in open country that's pretty much the same as carrying a billboard that says

Area Attack Lands Here!

PId6
2010-09-12, 01:56 AM
The Dark Creature template (or Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis) HiPS isn't quite as spiffy.
Actually, thanks to Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave which updates the Dark template, it now is Su and lets you ignore the need for cover/concealment when hiding in anything short of Daylight.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 07:55 AM
Actually, thanks to Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave which updates the Dark template, it now is Su and lets you ignore the need for cover/concealment when hiding in anything short of Daylight.

Now that is VERY interesting.
But I find the old version better for me as a GM. I don't even have that book (...and I'll be sure not to get it, or one of my players might just find it) :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2010-09-12, 09:29 AM
Actually, thanks to Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave which updates the Dark template, it now is Su and lets you ignore the need for cover/concealment when hiding in anything short of Daylight.
So now we've got two different versions of Dark Creature: a base one, and a modified one only applicable in Faerūn. Pretty screwy.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 11:52 AM
So now we've got two different versions of Dark Creature: a base one, and a modified one only applicable in Faerūn. Pretty screwy.
And the Dark template is supposedly a simplified Shadow template. Even more screwy.