Strategic Dismemberment and Disabling, 3.5ed

[Hardiron]

First, the story of how this came up, second, what we are trying to accomplish.

A group I play 3.5 ed with power build a lot with theoreticals outside our own games, often denying to let certain builds into them for their game wrecking qualities. An idea came around as i play a dwarf fighter whose general view on life is if it isnt broken, give me 5 seconds with it. This led to a whole discussion on Drunken masters and dismemberment. I have seen some build ups out there for this sort of thing, but nothing directly answers the question of having an ungodly strong creature attempt to rip your limbs off and then beat you to death with them. now onto what we are trying to achieve.

We need a system that allows for a character of exceptional strength, lets say a score of 36 for example, using the class drunken master for unarmed damage, to grapple or sunder an opponents arm off. One idea has been opposing strength checks after getting into a grapple and pin with an obvious major penalty because the limb is on the person. My question to all of you is what do you think would be a minimum strength to attempt this, what kind of penalty to the described above would be appropriate, or if you think a different system should be put into place. Thank you for any constructive criticism you might have.:smallbiggrin:

[monkman]

first thing first, the guy would have be on the floor if you wanted to rim his arm off, if not he might just dislock the arm and maybe swing the guy around, second i say a strenght of at least 30. also It would have to be a normal graplee check to get the arm and an AOO if its nots the sword hand

[Latronis]

well

Theoretically 2 opposed horses can drag a limb off. So given that a horse is given a drag capacity of 3000lbs work out how much strength is required to lift 3000lbs and you could probably justify tearing off a limb mid-combat though that is quite a bit more than 30str

[Unrest]

Theoretically 2 opposed horses can drag a limb off. So given that a horse is given a drag capacity of 3000lbs work out how much strength is required to lift 3000lbs and you could probably justify tearing off a limb mid-combat though that is quite a bit more than 30str

Wouldn't that mean that something along 6000 lbs of drag is used if Newton is applied? ~6000 drag, divided by 5 as per SRD, gives us 1200 - that would be doable for a 28-Strength character, wouldn't it? If the character stood on the victim, and, having locked his legs against its body, pulled...

Other than that, I think it's the most macabresque thing I've seen here for all my lurking career.

[Latronis]

Well you see 'dragging' off a limb (from a locked position) is clearly much easier for dismemberment then applying sudden force in the middle of a scrap. Just because you are capable of dragging off someone's arm doesn't mean you can tug it off :P

Not really trying to come up with a mathematical formula for pulling off arms just base it roughly on some precedent (in this case being quartered)

[Hardiron]

When the two horses are "dragging" a body in opposite directions, they are not so much dragging it as applying force in a horizontal plane. As far as lifting, a character can lift double there maximum carry capacity, but be staggering with it. I would think, if this was used, that given full concentration, a character with strength 30 could do it.

For balance reasons, i would think that some sort of check system would work better, as well as variances for character size, since its obviously much harder to rip the arm off an orge than a halfling.

[DracoDei]

Depending on what your take on the idea that nobody should need any of the "Improved Grapple/Disarm/Trip" feats to do those things as well as the feats let them be done, you might want to make this a feat (with a high strength requirement).

[Latronis]

I wonder if you could use a variation on the breaking items rules to do so. It makes a little more sense than an attack roll an does imply the sudden force it would require

[Hardiron]

im tempted to try and make it similar to a break DC. For a limb of a medium size creature, have it equal to 1" rope DC, 23 i believe. add the opponents strength modifier and size modifier to the check. what do you think?

Note: this would be assuming you have a pin, attempting a check would forgoe intentional damage for the turn (spiked armor still applies)

[Latronis]

im tempted to try and make it similar to a break DC. For a limb of a medium size creature, have it equal to 1" rope DC, 23 i believe. add the opponents strength modifier and size modifier to the check. what do you think?

Note: this would be assuming you have a pin, attempting a check would forgoe intentional damage for the turn (spiked armor still applies)

While a bone isn't particularly hard to snap all the muscle skin and tendons and whatnot aswell makes an arm for example typically hard to snap(off). Much more so than a rope. So using that a base seems a bit too 'mundanely achievable' Especially since its supposed to be the domain of high strength characters?

I'd bump it up a few more. A very achievable 20 strength probably shouldnt be able to tear of limbs imo. (not the easiest DC for a strength check but doable) Easier with favorably modifiers.

[Hardiron]

1" thick rope isnt so easy to tear asunder, but perhaps chain is a better example of a humanoid limb of medium size.

Also have a stipulation that if within 2 of the check, limb is broken, within 5 dislocated.

[Latronis]

1" thick rope isnt so easy to tear asunder, but perhaps chain is a better example of a humanoid limb of medium size.

Also have a stipulation that if within 2 of the check, limb is broken, within 5 dislocated.

Afterall horses which have more brute strength if not better 'strength' had trouble quartering people :P

Then you just need to clarify what kind of penalties broken bones or dislocation apply. So logically you could instead attempt to break an arm with a DC 2 lower. (maybe 5 and 10? breaking bones is easy afterall, so is dislocation) Also perhaps con might be a better opposed stat, while strength makes a certain kind of sense it makes a zombies arm harder to tear off than a commoners :P

[Hardiron]

well, lets go back to the rope example. Human with strength 14 is in a grapple with the build im trying to achieve with this (lets call the human bob and the PC joe) Lets say joe miracously has a 30 str score, for a modifier of +10.

23+2+0=25, even with that high of a strength, he only has a 25% chance to suceed.

now lets use an orge. str score 20

23+5+2=30, only on a perfect attempt could he rip the arm off an ogre (although imagine the fame that would come with that)

Now making it con based makes a certain amount of sense, except zombies have an unholy strength imbued upon them, and do you really want to wrestle a zombie?

i might be able to come up with a feat improved dismemberment, a +4 like sunder or the like.

also, maybe have the ability to do this outside of a pin, but with a -5 or -10 penalty. (leaning 5)

[Latronis]

Ok the numbers seem to bear out the character you want to do. I still think it's a little too easy but it can be overlooked for cinematic effect. Whatever's fun :smallcool:


Now making it con based makes a certain amount of sense, except zombies have an unholy strength imbued upon them, and do you really want to wrestle a zombie?

represented by the template giving +2strength. Harder to wrestle, but surely a rotting limb is easier to rip off than a humans or ogres in the prime of its life :P


also, maybe have the ability to do this outside of a pin, but with a -5 or -10 penalty. (leaning 5)

now that is truly impressive, some would say over the top. With those numbers -5 is fine, -10 would be just about impossible which kinda defeats the purpose of allowing it.

[Admiral Squish]

Don't have much to add, here, but I think the idea of a drunken master who tears off people's arms and uses them to kill people is HILARIOUS.