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View Full Version : Suggestion, what does it do?



Otodetu
2010-09-07, 01:42 PM
There have been some long winded talks about what you can use suggestion to accomplish, from hardly more than the effect of some good inn character talking, to down right compulsion like effects like "sit down and don't move while i leave the scene" said to a hostile entity.

Where is the true limit of this spell, and can someone come with examples on the upper limit of effects?

Sorry if this is an issue that have been posted about earlier, tried search but found nothing.

Kaww
2010-09-07, 01:47 PM
The upper limit is your creativity.

I think the example in spell description says it all.
Sentence 1: This pool is filled with nice, refreshing water.(pool of acid)
Sentence 2: It's too hot, you should have a swim.

ericgrau
2010-09-07, 01:47 PM
You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.
I think the player's handbook might have examples. EDIT for ninja: yeup there you go. In the end it's whatever your DM decides is reasonable. Players will of course try to argue for as much as possible for the upper limit, while DMs might push towards the other direction.

I do think the Giant's "Only do what I tell you to" is *not* wording a suggestion in a way that sounds reasonable, nor is it a mini-dominate separated from a 9th level spell only by a tongues or a few skill points into languages.

Greenish
2010-09-07, 01:48 PM
The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable.
There. Suggesting someone to stay out of your way while you escape might be reasonable if the target knows (or believes) being outmatched.

Also:
Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

Otodetu
2010-09-07, 02:31 PM
So it is the "argue with you dm" spell then?

They really should have added a few more examples to that spell, as most reasonable suggestions can be made without magic and work just as well in my experience, guess it can be used to force the hand of chance, like using "surrender, you have no chance to win!" on the cornered fanatic that would rather die than be captured. But this leads to it being a very weaksauce spell.

Greenish
2010-09-07, 02:36 PM
So it is the "argue with you dm" spell then?Pretty much. It's not supposed to end combats, and note how it says that "the suggestion must sound reasonable", not that the suggestion has to be reasonable.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-07, 02:45 PM
Sometimes you can use them as superpowered bluffs. Bluff checks help immensely, as do diplomacy checks.
Sample Suggestions:
To Dwarf Fighter: Your axe looks like it's in bad condition. You should polish it a little.
To hired assassin: People are coming upstairs. You should go and hide.
To wench(provided she liked it): Surely all that joy was payment enough?
To guard by the door, on a blizzard: It's far too cold here. Please give me shelter.

Asheram
2010-09-07, 03:38 PM
An excellent example (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03112009/)

Zaq
2010-09-07, 11:30 PM
"There's an invisible enemy way over there! You should attack it until it's dead!"

Snake-Aes
2010-09-08, 04:55 AM
"There's an invisible enemy way over there! You should attack it until it's dead!"

That would fumble. Either he doesn't see the creature and it breaks because he can't hit it, or he sees there's nothing there and decides you were wrong.

PrGo
2010-09-08, 05:01 AM
"These are not the warforged you are looking for."

dsmiles
2010-09-08, 05:11 AM
I once suggested that some merchant who was making me angry "Kneel and worship me as his god." The DM let it fly, since I was already intimidating him into believing I was a super-powerful entity via the telepathy variant on the psion (from Mind's Eye). I was also quite NE, and that was basically my character's MO. Psionic Suggestion and Psionic Dominate were his powers of choice when it came to dealing with trouble.

Otodetu
2010-09-08, 10:14 AM
"These are not the warforged you are looking for."

Great example.

Lapak
2010-09-08, 10:45 AM
An excellent example (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03112009/)That is indeed an excellent example of how Suggestion can be used in a combat. It's a reasonable statement (in fact, it's proved true a few moments later) but it gains the spellcaster a temporary advantage. Variations on the theme:

"That was my last spell, so I'm harmless now. You should leave me for last."
"If we try to escape through that door, we might get away. You should guard it while your friends finish us off."

Circumstances in a combat can turn it into a save-or-lose without any logical leaps like "it only looks like a pool of acid" required. For example, if you've already downed a couple of enemies, but there's still enough left to be a problem, you might take one out of combat with:

"We're killing all your allies. You should surrender while you have the chance."

None of the above are immediately dangerous - in fact, most of them are something that might help the enemy in some way (if they were 100% accurate.)

Jarawara
2010-09-08, 02:42 PM
What makes it better than the Charm Person spell?

i.e., What makes it a 3rd level spell while Charm Person is only a 1st level spell?

Lapak
2010-09-08, 02:56 PM
What makes it better than the Charm Person spell?

i.e., What makes it a 3rd level spell while Charm Person is only a 1st level spell?Charm Person gives them a bonus to save in combat, forces an opposed Charisma check to do anything they wouldn't ordinarily do, and only makes them regard you in a friendly manner instead of requiring any given action. A Charmed foe might in all good will decide not to do the specific thing you ask; he's just a very good friend to you. Suggestion doesn't give a save bonus in combat and forces them to do whatever it is you suggest as long as that thing isn't actively and obviously harmful to them; it doesn't matter whether it's a decision they would ordinarily make.

Quirp
2010-09-08, 02:57 PM
Charm Person doesn´t make the target forget about his allies, while Suggestion can force him to do things he wouldn´t normally do.

crizh
2010-09-08, 03:15 PM
'You've always hated these guys, now is your chance to stab them in the back.'

If you think Suggestion is broken you should try Implanted Suggestion in Complete Psionic. I stopped using it because I was about to be on the receiving end of a thrown DMG...

Lapak
2010-09-08, 03:17 PM
'You've always hated these guys, now is your chance to stab them in the back.'That one would definitely get a save [edit] null the spell unless the target really hated 'these guys'; killing your own allies in combat is definitely harmful to you. :smalltongue:

[edit again] In my opinion, at least.

crizh
2010-09-08, 03:28 PM
I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that a member of a species with an Alignment: Always Evil is likely to dislike his allies and be prepared to stab them in the back given the opportunity.

WarKitty
2010-09-08, 03:50 PM
That one would definitely get a save [edit] null the spell unless the target really hated 'these guys'; killing your own allies in combat is definitely harmful to you. :smalltongue:

[edit again] In my opinion, at least.

Reminds me of a funny story from when I was DM'ing. I had pitted my party against a bard and a few minions. The bard had cast a mind-control spell - I think it was dominate - on the party fighter.

Me: You see the bard cast some sort of spell. <<Player>>, roll a will save.
Player: *rolls a 2*
Me: You are now under the effects of a dominate person spell. The bard commands you to attack the rogue (who was a pretty good hitter).
Player: Don't I get another will save for that?
Me: Given that you were trying to beat the crap out of the rogue 2 minutes ago, no.

kyoryu
2010-09-08, 04:09 PM
"These are not the warforged you are looking for."

Best example I've seen. I think it perfectly illustrates the 'soft control' aspects of the spell.

Ormur
2010-09-08, 05:07 PM
That one would definitely get a save [edit] null the spell unless the target really hated 'these guys'; killing your own allies in combat is definitely harmful to you. :smalltongue:

[edit again] In my opinion, at least.

If the caster knows his opponents well enough it might just sound reasonable. Case in point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html) (it's not even suggestion I know). I know some characters in my group that could consider backstabbing certain party members a reasonable proposition even though they wouldn't normally do it.

dsmiles
2010-09-09, 09:15 AM
If the caster knows his opponents well enough it might just sound reasonable. Case in point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html) (it's not even suggestion I know). I know some characters in my group that could consider backstabbing certain party members a reasonable proposition even though they wouldn't normally do it.

Backstabbing other party members is a perfectly reasonable suggestion, as long as it is worded correctly. It's a spell that can be used as a role-play device. "They're all out to get you, you should take care of them before they hurt you," seems perfectly reasonable to me.