Ways to increase reach

[Sindri]

I'm looking for as many ways to increase reach as possible, preferably stackable. I know about Warshaper (+5ft at level 3), reach weapons, size increases, etc. but I'm looking for the obscure and the awesome. My eventual plan is a build that uses Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer, Cleave and/or Whirlwind attack, etc. to kill everything in a room without moving.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Book of Vile Darkness has Willing Deformity and (another book has) Willing Deformity... Tall, I think.

Been a while since I've look at that book though.

[Sindri]

Tall isn't in the BoVD itself, but I think I remember seeing it somewhere...

[The-Mage-King]

Play a choker. 15 foot reach, an extra standard or move action each round, and they're Small.

[Amphetryon]

Heroes of Horror has deformity feats too.

Lords of Madness has a feat to increase reach, IIRC.

Warshaper can do it.

There are a bunch more.

[Person_Man]

Shazam (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)!!!!

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[Reynard]

Shazam (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)!!!!

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Personman, you should do a compilation thread that links to all of your other compilation threads. Then get it stickied.

Also, you're awesome.

[Snake-Aes]

Pathfinder's Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/lunge-combat---final) is made of awesome too. Requires BAB +6 and gives you, during your rounds, +5' reach in trade of losing 2 AC.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Tall isn't in the BoVD itself, but I think I remember seeing it somewhere...

Really? Hmm, learn something every day I suppose.

[Mordokai]

Lords of Madness has a feat to increase reach, IIRC.

Inhuman reach, gives you +5 feet to your reach. Also, you can use spinning sword (Secrets of Sarlona, of memory serves, but it's definetly from one of the Eberron books), which gives you another five feet.

One of my players used both of those in one of my games. Combined with Belt of Growth, you have a solid reach of 15 feet. Should tie you nicely.

[Sindri]

Thank you.

@Person_Man: Yes you definitely need to compile your compilations, and then get it on "notable threads" alongside the X stat to Y bonus and such.

@The Dark Fiddler: BoVD has Clawed Hands, Eyes, Face, Gaunt, and Obese. Heroes of Horror has Skin, Tall, Teeth, and Tongue; I couldn't remember it at the time.

@The-Mage-King: Chokers actually only have a 10ft reach, but if you give them a reach weapon that becomes 20 (30 with a whip), and the extra actions and small size definitely help. As do the Dex and Str bonuses.

Edit to avoid double-posting: Does anyone know which book the dagger-whip is in?
Edit-Edit: Nevermind, I found it in Sword and Fist.

[Curmudgeon]

Play a choker. 15 foot reach, an extra standard or move action each round, and they're Small.
Choker has "─" for Level Adjustment, meaning it isn't suitable for player characters. So you can't play one, but you can use one as an NPC if you're a particularly evil DM. :smallcool:

[Sindri]

They have the Int to be PCs, and there aren't any game-breaking abilities there, so you can ask your GM to make up a LA but it'll probably be +3 or +4, and thus too much to be worth it.

[Vaynor]

Chokers aren't considered suitable for player characters because they get an extra standard/move action each round. That is much too powerful for a player character.

[Sindri]

But there are several ways to get the same thing magically. And if you just add a line saying that the extra action can't be used for a spell or ToB maneuver, you have no problems whatsoever.

[mobdrazhar]

Tall isn't in the BoVD itself, but I think I remember seeing it somewhere...

Could be in Elder Evils?

[Sindri]

Could be in Elder Evils?

It's Heroes of Horror.

[true_shinken]

But there are several ways to get the same thing magically. And if you just add a line saying that the extra action can't be used for a spell or ToB maneuver, you have no problems whatsoever.

You could still move + charge every freaking round, which is pretty good.
Also, of course if you nerf chokers a lot they might become usable as player characters. As they are, they are not suitable.
You could post a homebrewed playable choker in the homebrew forum, I bet people would enjoy that.

[Vaynor]

But there are several ways to get the same thing magically. And if you just add a line saying that the extra action can't be used for a spell or ToB maneuver, you have no problems whatsoever.

Yeah but the ways to get that magically are considered incredibly broken. Namely, Celerity cheese.

[Sindri]

All I'm saying is that an ability doesn't make something unsuitable for use by players if the same ability can be obtained more easily by playing a straight wizard.
Even if the GM thinks it's overpowered, there are several options for making it non-broken other than simply hitting the ban button. The action economy is primarily broken by casting more spells in a round than should be possible, right? So if you don't allow more spells (or ToB maneuvers) during the extra action, you get a flavorful and very useful ability without it killing your game. There's precedent for this; IIRC there's a race in the Dragon Compendium that has two bodies, and thus gets twice as many normal actions each round but only one of them can cast spells, and that was only +1 or 2 LA for a full round worth of extra actions.

[Crasical]

Shazam (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)!!!!

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... Huh. Does this mean you can be a Human monk with Aberration blood and Inhuman reach at first level? Then at third level take Extended Reach for a total of 15 feet of reach, 20 if he wants to blow some feats on Willing Deformity and tall at levels 6 and 9?

You can be Dhalsim. Punch people from across the room.

[Random NPC]

... Huh. Does this mean you can be a Human monk with Aberration blood and Inhuman reach at first level? Then at third level take Extended Reach for a total of 15 feet of reach, 20 if he wants to blow some feats on Willing Deformity and tall at levels 6 and 9?

You can be Dhalsim. Punch people from across the room.

Or a Changeling Fighter 4/Warshaper 3/X 2 with a decent 25 feet reach :smallamused:

[Crasical]

Or a Changeling Fighter 4/Warshaper 3/X 2 with a decent 25 feet reach :smallamused:

Yeah, but it's less funny with weapons.

[Volthawk]

Yeah, but it's less funny with weapons.

How about a changeling growing natural weapons out of his body, then attacking you with them from 25ft away?

[Crasical]

How about a changeling growing natural weapons out of his body, then attacking you with them from 25ft away?

Can changelings do that? Hmm. *tries to find what book they're from*

[Volthawk]

Can changelings do that? Hmm. *tries to find what book they're from*

Nope, that's from Warshaper.

[Crasical]

Nope, that's from Warshaper.

I thought that just increased the size of natural weapons you already had?

[2xMachina]

They can also grow Natural Weapons.

[Sindri]

The real fun is when you give the guy with a 25ft reach a dagger-whip. Threaten everything within 75ft!

Then you take Combat Reflexes, and Whirlwind attack...
Mage Slayer adds to the fun, because nobody that you threaten can cast defensively.

[2xMachina]

Would be funny pair it with Stormguard warrior.

Pretend you don't have the range, refrain from the AoO, then whack them with extra power next round.

Dancing Blade Form also adds another 5' on your turn.

[Vaynor]

All I'm saying is that an ability doesn't make something unsuitable for use by players if the same ability can be obtained more easily by playing a straight wizard.
Even if the GM thinks it's overpowered, there are several options for making it non-broken other than simply hitting the ban button. The action economy is primarily broken by casting more spells in a round than should be possible, right? So if you don't allow more spells (or ToB maneuvers) during the extra action, you get a flavorful and very useful ability without it killing your game. There's precedent for this; IIRC there's a race in the Dragon Compendium that has two bodies, and thus gets twice as many normal actions each round but only one of them can cast spells, and that was only +1 or 2 LA for a full round worth of extra actions.

You're ignoring the fact that it's one of the more broken spells in the game. Saying it's balanced because a wizard can do it at a higher level is either an unsound or invalid argument.

That doesn't change the fact that the choker, as is, is unsuitable for play (as someone mentioned earlier). A modified choker is completely different.

The race in the Dragon Compendium has a lot more caveats than just that, as well. It doesn't actually make for a very powerful character, since you share almost every aspect of a single character between two (WBL, ability to cast spells, and IIRC hit points, among other things; all of which make for a pretty weak character).

[Sindri]

I never said it was balanced, I just said that it wasn't grounds for banning the race. Being able to do one of the many unbalanced things that the party wizard does every day means that it has a small fraction of the wizards power. This puts it above monk, but nowhere near being a broken character unless you combine it with, say, wizard or druid. And the wizard can do this already.

[true_shinken]

I never said it was balanced, I just said that it wasn't grounds for banning the race. Being able to do one of the many unbalanced things that the party wizard does every day means that it has a small fraction of the wizards power. This puts it above monk, but nowhere near being a broken character unless you combine it with, say, wizard or druid. And the wizard can do this already.

You said it yourself it's broken if 'you use it for wizard spells/ToB maneuvers'. Also, the choker can do this at will. There are ways to cast more than one spell a round or get more than one standard action, but they all require you to spend resources (the lighter version being the Factotum's Cunning Surge, that requires you to spend 3 IP per use - if they are refreshed each encounter, but 3 is nearly half of what a Factotum gets at level 8).
WotC can get pretty wonky when adding LA and balancing things, but they are right about the choker. It is fine as a monster, since it does not get much use from it's ability other than moving or making an additional attack, but as a player character it would be impressively broken, unless you make a few changes to it. You suggested a few good changes yourself.

[Person_Man]

... Huh. Does this mean you can be a Human monk with Aberration blood and Inhuman reach at first level? Then at third level take Extended Reach for a total of 15 feet of reach, 20 if he wants to blow some feats on Willing Deformity and tall at levels 6 and 9?

You can be Dhalsim. Punch people from across the room.

Yes, you can. I have a Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) build called Hentai which you might want to look at. Having ridiculous reach with Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, Daunting Challenge, and Test of Mettle is pretty awesome.

But note that there is a diminishing return on reach. You can load up on Expansion and feats and whatnot and get 60+ ft, but most combat occurs within 30 ft. And even with Mage Slayer, if the DM really wants his BBEG to cast a spell, he's going to find a way. If you have 100 ft of reach, he'll be standing 105 ft away. So like all optimization, you want to choose what resources you invest in it wisely, and then move on to something else.

[Crasical]

Yes, you can. I have a Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) build called Hentai which you might want to look at. Having ridiculous reach with Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, Daunting Challenge, and Test of Mettle is pretty awesome.

This is actually LESS impressive to me, if only for the fact that every DnD game I've played in so far started us off at level 1, so 'weird things that can be done at first level' is usually more interesting than something that will only pay off 10 levels down the line.

The fact that you called your tentacle knight Hentai is either amusing or facepalm worthy and I'm not sure which.