What LA, if any, would you give this...

[Sharwyn]

I'm creating a custom Human Sub-Race for my world, and while it's more flavoursome than mechanical, if a player should wish to play the race I'd need to know what kind of LA I should give it (if any). I've never been good at that kind of thing.

The world is very much a shadowrun similar setting, just with more of a post-apocalyptic fallout feel to it. It also uses the Spellpoint system with relation to magic. The race may seem very bizarre/broken/doesn't seem to fit, but with the flavour of the world it does.


'The Pure'
Humanoid (Human)

+2 Charisma, -4 Constitution.
Medium: As Medium creatures, The Pure have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision 120ft.
+2 Spellpoints per level.
-2 Fortitude Saves, +2 Will Saves
+2 racial bonus on Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Geography) checks.
Immunity to Magic (Ex): A member of The Pure is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance.
Thermal Vision (Su): Once per day, for 1/min per HD, The Pure can use a type of vision that is very much similar to modern day thermal vision.
Immortal: The Pure do not suffer any penalties for ageing, nor do they die from old age. They can still die from external influences, however.


Does this need any LA?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Yes, because of the +2 spell points per level and immunity to magic. The former equals 2 additional 9th level spells at 18th level, and the latter is incredibly, incredibly powerful. This is nothing but a min-maxing race as written: power features for spellcasters, but -4 Con, an additional -2 to Fort saves (totalling -4)...

Honestly, I think you need a bit of a rewrite here, as your weaknesses are huge and your strengths are massive, which makes this impossible to properly estimate LA on.

[Duke of URL]

LA is a tricky science at best. Most of the stuff balances out (though with -4 CON and -2 to Fort saves, that's a whopping -4 to Fort), with the exception of immunity to magic. That's a pretty serious benefit (though it has its drawbacks as well, such as being immune to many buffs and healing spells)... I'd go with a high +1 to a low +2, depending on how the other races in setting are.

Edit: Or higher... I missed the spell point issue. The immunity is also very tricky to estimate.

[Sharwyn]

I'd also like to add that all magic items are used via the Spellpoint system, also. They're not innately magical anymore as they have been manufactured with Spellpoint batteries and something similar to cybernetic implants to actually use them. So The Pure, being immune to magic I would probably say wouldn't be able to use these implants, so would have to power the items with their own Spellpoint pools.

Standard self-magical items do exist, but they're up there with artifact items and things like that.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'd also like to add that all magic items are used via the Spellpoint system, also. They're not innately magical anymore as they have been manufactured with Spellpoint batteries and something similar to cybernetic implants to actually use them. So The Pure, being immune to magic I would probably say wouldn't be able to use these implants, so would have to power the items with their own Spellpoint pools.

Standard self-magical items do exist, but they're up there with artifact items and things like that.

Hm. Still very tricky to balance, honestly (actually, somewhat more so, as we're now trying to balance magic items into the equation as well...). There's probably a mechanically simpler way of accomplishing what you're trying to do...and one that would actually net you balance at the same time.

[Zaydos]

The immunity to magic takes out a lot (but far from all) of Fort saves.

The ability scores hurt and are actually a little weak.

The extra spell points are crazy strong assuming this is the UA variant if it's a different one well I'd have to know which one.

I'd say a +2 actually. Immunity to magic is hard to adjudicate and might be worth more, but the spell points are largely negated by the +2 LA already (simply mitigating its effects). Maybe +3.

[Sharwyn]

Thanks for the input so far. It seems as though I might need to adjust the Spellpoint bonus a little. Maybe an extra 2 SP per 3 HD?

Edit: This race itself isn't really meant to be fully balanced. It's just more of a case of if someone wants to roleplay one of these people (extremely, extremely rare race) then there would be some kind of stats in place.

[Zaydos]

Thanks for the input so far. It seems as though I might need to adjust the Spellpoint bonus a little. Maybe an extra 2 SP per 3 HD?

Edit: This race itself isn't really meant to be fully balanced. It's just more of a case of if someone wants to roleplay one of these people (extremely, extremely rare race) then there would be some kind of stats in place.

Are you using the UA spell point variant or another means of determining spell points?

[Sharwyn]

UA variant, yes. However there is very limited, if hardly any access at all to items like Scrolls, Wands and things like that. So a wizard is likely to be limited to the 2 spells they get per level and not much more. The implants you come across would give you access to more spells rather than having a set spellbook for everything.

I was also thinking about removing the Craft Item feats unless you're closely in league with one of the manufacturing corporations. (think the Borderlands video game if you've played it)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Edit: This race itself isn't really meant to be fully balanced. It's just more of a case of if someone wants to roleplay one of these people (extremely, extremely rare race) then there would be some kind of stats in place.

But if it's ever meant to be a PC race, for whatever reason, it would be nice to have it balanced against other PC races. Currently you're looking at LA +2 or +3 for the spell points and magic immunity, but the other abilities are slightly worse than LA +0, which means the players is an exceptionally weak LA +3, whose LA can't be lowered because of powerful, non-level appropriate abilities.

[Sharwyn]

But if it's ever meant to be a PC race, for whatever reason, it would be nice to have it balanced against other PC races. Currently you're looking at LA +2 or +3 for the spell points and magic immunity, but the other abilities are slightly worse than LA +0, which means the players is an exceptionally weak LA +3, whose LA can't be lowered because of powerful, non-level appropriate abilities.

I can understand where you're coming from with this. Unless there's another mechanical way to be immune to magic I can't think of another way to do it.

Basically the theory behind this world is that Earth has fallen Nuclear War, and rather than it passing by like it should do, ancient primal forces were awoken and tried to turn the planet back to the way it was at the dawn of time. The humans started evolving into Elves, Dwarves etc. to cope with this, and the primals decided that since things were progressing down a natural course they would see how things turn out.

These humans, The Pure, were there at day one. This was over 600 years ago. They were at ground zero of the nuclear blasts and the radiation, rather than obliterating them from the face of the earth, put their bodies into a type of stasis. They physically look like an albino person with bright red eyes, and magic doesn't effect them. They are also stuck at their stage of evolution, so they haven't evolved their immune systems, or even evolved to the point of surviving in this new, rather barren world.

Since all of the other races evolved from humans, and The Pure are the base, untouched genetic code for all of that evolution, so they are sought after for genetic experiments to see what else could be made.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Basically the theory behind this world is that Earth has fallen Nuclear War, and rather than it passing by like it should do, ancient primal forces were awoken and tried to turn the planet back to the way it was at the dawn of time. The humans started evolving into Elves, Dwarves etc. to cope with this, and the primals decided that since things were progressing down a natural course they would see how things turn out.

These humans, The Pure, were there at day one. This was over 600 years ago. They were at ground zero of the nuclear blasts and the radiation, rather than obliterating them from the face of the earth, put their bodies into a type of stasis. They physically look like an albino person with bright red eyes, and magic doesn't effect them. They are also stuck at their stage of evolution, so they haven't evolved their immune systems, or even evolved to the point of surviving in this new, rather barren world.

Since all of the other races evolved from humans, and The Pure are the base, untouched genetic code for all of that evolution, so they are sought after for genetic experiments to see what else could be made.

See, this doesn't imply weak constitution and magic immunity to me: this implies incredible durability and resistance, as they were able to survive what was basically ground zero of a world-wide nuke. If they're being used as experiments, that further implies that they aren't immune to magic, as it was the wild magic and changing world that mutated them in the first place.

From what you say, I still expect to see one burn if I drop a fireball on it. I don't expect it to burn as much as if I dropped a fireball on an elf, and I definitely expect this thing to be able to walk through a field of radiation and come out on the other end alive.

That says Constitution bonus, save bonus, and damage reduction to me, and maybe things like faster healing.

[Duke of URL]

Spell Resistance of 10 or 11 + HD might work better than magic immunity, too.

I'd consider something more like:

+2 Charisma, -4 Constitution.
Medium: As Medium creatures, The Pure have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision 60ft.
+2 racial bonus on Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Geography) checks. Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Geography) are always in-class skills.
Spell Resistance (Ex): A member of The Pure has spell resistance 10 + character level.
Thermal Vision (Su): Once per day, for 1 min/HD, The Pure can use a type of vision that is very much similar to modern day thermal vision.
Immortal: The Pure do not suffer any penalties for aging, nor do they die from old age.

I'd consider this a high +1 (but then, I also tend to lowball).

[Zaydos]

Spell Resistance of 10 or 11 + HD might work better than magic immunity, too.

I'd consider something more like:

+2 Charisma, -4 Constitution.
Medium: As Medium creatures, The Pure have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision 60ft.
+2 racial bonus on Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Geography) checks. Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Geography) are always in-class skills.
Spell Resistance (Ex): A member of The Pure has spell resistance 10 + character level.
Thermal Vision (Su): Once per day, for 1 min/HD, The Pure can use a type of vision that is very much similar to modern day thermal vision.
Immortal: The Pure do not suffer any penalties for aging, nor do they die from old age.

I'd consider this a high +1 (but then, I also tend to lowball).

Savage Species puts it at LA +1, and honestly I wouldn't put it any higher than that myself.

[Milskidasith]

Savage Species puts it at LA +1, and honestly I wouldn't put it any higher than that myself.

Add in +3 wis, int, and a further +3 cha, and it's actually looking a lot better. Go no aging penalties!

[Zaydos]

Oh yeah I forgot that, I generally think of immortals as not getting bonuses or penalties. :smallredface:

[Sharwyn]

See, this doesn't imply weak constitution and magic immunity to me: this implies incredible durability and resistance, as they were able to survive what was basically ground zero of a world-wide nuke. If they're being used as experiments, that further implies that they aren't immune to magic, as it was the wild magic and changing world that mutated them in the first place.

From what you say, I still expect to see one burn if I drop a fireball on it. I don't expect it to burn as much as if I dropped a fireball on an elf, and I definitely expect this thing to be able to walk through a field of radiation and come out on the other end alive.

That says Constitution bonus, save bonus, and damage reduction to me, and maybe things like faster healing.

The experiments they're being subjected to are based on modern medicine, not magic, and just on a genetic level. They haven't been effected by the changing magic of the world, and the majority of them have died out to disease and the change in climate. There's probably less than 200 of them left in the world. Most of them are housed within the walls of the corporations that found them, who strive to keep them alive.

Sure, throw a fireball on them, stick them in a nuclear reactor and they walk out alive without a scratch, but they could die from the common cold. Hence the lack of con and fort save. They haven't been able to cure themselves with magic, so the infection from a simple graze could be lethal.

Edit: Also, just for flavour reason, they have to be completely immune to magic aside from those that don't allow spell resistance. That is just one of the things that has to remain for the race. I haven't fully fleshed out the world yet, just the basics, so what made them immune to magic could be anything; I just haven't come up with it yet.

Also Djinn they didn't mutate. Their bodies were put into a perpetual stasis, so if anything they're immune to evolution and mutation. Spells like Alter Self and Polymorph, even if they were able to bypass the immunity somehow, probably wouldn't work either.

[Lapak]

You might want to make an additional note in their writeup that their Spell Immunity ability cannot be voluntarily lowered; IIRC, the standard Spell Immunity works just like SR in that a creature can voluntarily take it down for a round with a standard action in order to benefit from spells.

In terms of balancing the thing, you're not going to be able to balance out the magic immunity and get the LA down much, so limit the penalties you put on them. There's nothing in your description that indicates that they're physically frail, just vulnerable to disease, so I'd switch the Fort penalty over to saves specifically against disease, just as dwarves get a bonus against specifically poison. Then I'd drop the CON penalty to -2 or even wipe it out altogether. That makes them more worthy of the LA they will inevitably have.

[sigurd]

I'd reduce the darkvision to 60'
I'd remove the magic immunity for something like the elves immunities.

Do that before you even begin to consider it for a race. IMHO its broken in a world of risk and competition.


Or simply call them demigods and don't let your players play them.

[Schylerwalker]

I'd say a +2 or +3. If it weren't for the massive Con whack, added with the penalty to Fortitude saves, I'd say a +4, or even a +5. Immunity to Magic is just a really freakin' sweet ability.

[DragoonWraith]

I see Immunity to Magic as a double-edged sword. I mean, how many magic items are you unable to use? A Cloak of Resistance isn't going to work any better than Resistance, right? No ability boosters, no resistance boosters, no buffs. Can't have Fly cast on you; how are you gaining flight? Wings of Flying might work, maybe, but those are fiendishly expensive. Losing Cure Light Wounds is obvious, but you also lose Potions of Cure Light Wounds, Wands of Cure Light Wounds - how do you heal? Looks like you're stuck with the natural healing rate. In a high-magic world, immunity to magic is crippling. Yes, great defensively, but ultimately you're in a very weakened position.

[Zaydos]

Checking the DMG (page 298) and the Rules Compendium it says: A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

So Magic Immunity isn't as bad as it seems.

(I know this due to circumstances involving campaign background, an awakened iron golem, and a Hat of Disguise).

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, OK, but that makes no sense from the fluff of this race. This race shouldn't have that option.

[Latronis]

and magic immunity doesn't have a chance to fail like spell resistance so it's almost strictly better than SR (or at least very few instance where SR is superior to immunity)

As is i'd probably say too good for +2LA, so a weakish +3LA?

[Sharwyn]

I'd reduce the darkvision to 60'
I'd remove the magic immunity for something like the elves immunities.

Do that before you even begin to consider it for a race. IMHO its broken in a world of risk and competition.


Or simply call them demigods and don't let your players play them.

I think you've completely missed the point here. By a few thousand miles. :smalltongue: My group likes to roleplay with things other than stats. We just like to use 3.5 because it's one of the best class-based roleplaying systems out there.


I see Immunity to Magic as a double-edged sword. I mean, how many magic items are you unable to use? A Cloak of Resistance isn't going to work any better than Resistance, right? No ability boosters, no resistance boosters, no buffs. Can't have Fly cast on you; how are you gaining flight? Wings of Flying might work, maybe, but those are fiendishly expensive. Losing Cure Light Wounds is obvious, but you also lose Potions of Cure Light Wounds, Wands of Cure Light Wounds - how do you heal? Looks like you're stuck with the natural healing rate. In a high-magic world, immunity to magic is crippling. Yes, great defensively, but ultimately you're in a very weakened position.

This. Since every magical item is based upon basically plugging them into yourself and merging yourself with the magic battery they have in them, the race wouldn't be able to use anything. Not unless they used their own spellpoint pools, which would then make the items less effective. Like I say the twist to the magic system still needs to be ironed out, taking this race into consideration.

As for the Rules on it not affecting their own spells, I would tweak that purely for the fluff of the race.

[Aran Banks]

This is a lot like playing a pixie.... it trades obnoxious weakness for immunity to everything worthwhile.

Not a playable race unless you're in a setting with minimal to no magic.

[DragoonWraith]

Well, the Magic Immunity would be less damning than Vow of Poverty, but not very much so. Of course, that could work in your favor - if someone asks to play one, you can be like "are you really sure you want to? Having no magic items makes for a short-lived adventurer, and I'm not going to coddle you."

[sigurd]

I think you've completely missed the point here. By a few thousand miles. :smalltongue: My group likes to roleplay with things other than stats. We just like to use 3.5 because it's one of the best class-based roleplaying systems out there.


Then don't worry about an LA. Roleplay away.

You were asking about game balance but if you don't play 'that' game you don't have to worry.