An Author who doesn't own his setting?

[Alchemistmerlin]

Fantasy fiction is often just as much about it's setting as it is about it's characters or plot, I think. I've been reading R.A. Salvatore's work for a long time and, having just put down The Ghost King I have to say...I don't think I'll be re-entering Forgotten Realms ever again.

It is very apparent through the course of The Ghost King that someone at WotC made a marketing decision: "Kids today love Grim and Dark! Make our stuff more grimdark! Also add stuff from that annie mae!" and Mr. Salvatore had to change his work (and his characters) to fit this marketing choice. It struck me as artificial and just plain stupid.

So what's the point? I mean, I've never believed that I was reading "art" when reading WotC licensed work, but what's the point of an author who can't ply his craft because he hasn't added enough eyeshadow and tieflings? I can't even look at my old WotC books without feeling a bit disgusted now, realizing that I was just the last generation of fodder for the marketting machine.

Er...ranty rant. Comments?

[jmbrown]

I haven't read Salvatore since... eh, Cleric Quintet. If what you say is true then it's kind of ironic because Salvatore helped define and bring Forgotten Realms into the mainstream light. The setting wouldn't be the same (for good and for worse) without his work.

[Cubey]

That's less of an author not owning their setting and more of an author being under the execs' heel. Having absolute protection from editors of any kind is a bad thing (hello, Lucas!), but going to the other extreme is even worse.

That being said, stories that are tabletop RPG tie-ins are rarely well-written. It's just that Wizards of the Coast has the guts to release them en masse, so you sometimes get a good work.

[kamikasei]

You can expect any work to be less good, as a work, if the creator is operating under constraints beyond what makes the work better, as a work. If an editor has to tell the author to change something, not because it improves the work but because it needs to fit in with something else or include an element irrelevant to the story that the publisher wants to promote, of course the story's going to suffer.

This isn't unique to fantasy or other franchise tie-in novels. It seems to me to be the (or a) bane of mainstream comics as well.

In general, one creator producing work consistent with itself is going to produce better results than a lot of creators all trying (or not) to build in the same world. When you add incentives like merchandising or promotion of related goods on top of the inherent problems of collaboration, well, you've got to expect at least some of the results to be sub-par.

[Killer Angel]

To not own the setting, doesn't always mean a bad thing.
Take Mitchell and the Cain's novels. Mitchell doesn't own WH40K, but the stories, rather then "obey" to workshop's dictates, are now part of the "official" fluff.
So, an Author can lower his head (thus writing The Ghost King), or can be able to impose his story to the world created by someone else. Mitchell's novels and the first Salvatore's stories fall in the second case.

[LordShotGun]

I personally enjoyied all of salvator's books up till the "king" trilogy and the only reason I think these three books were terrible was due to them being forced to show how the world has changed from 3.0-4.0 editions.

Forcing an author to change his characters and his setting due to a new version coming out is bound to cause quality to suffer.

[Piedmon_Sama]

D'awww. The Drizzt books were a big part of my (admittedly bad) literary diet when I was a teen. I guess even though it's been... six years since I felt inclined to read them, it sucks to hear they've been changed to fit some marketing drive. I thought it was bad when post-3.0 ed. artwork started drawing Drizzt in all-leather and ignoring his mailcoat.

But yeah, no use in getting all ~MY CHILDHOOD!~ over corporate characters.

[Haruki-kun]

Ah, Executive Meddling. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExecutiveMeddling)

Not familiar with this particular case, but it's been done with a lot of my favorite media franchises..... so I understand what you feel.

[snoopy13a]

It's a trade-off for the author. Sure, they have to write the novel according to guidelines and rules set by the editors of the IP (intellectual property) which does stifle their creativity. However, they do gain the marketing power of the IP which helps drive sales, thus making both parties money. Additionally, it gives the author publicity so that he or she can publish and sell original works easier.

[BRC]

Usually Authors working in other settings can produce some good work. It can be assumed that the readers have at least passing familiarity with the setting, so the writer can spend the time they would normally spend on basic exposition (What the nations are, who hates who, who the guy in the nice hat is) further developing the part of the setting their novel is going to take place in. And provided they stay away from changing events in the source material, they can be given decently free reign.

For example, one of my favorite books was based off a licensed franchise: Liberty's crusade. It followed along the original Starcraft Terran campaign, through the eyes of a reporter named Michael Liberty. He was present for some of the crucial moments, and some in-game dialog works its way into the book, it fleshes out the setting and all the characters involved.

However, sometimes you can tell the Author, rather than being offered the opportunity to write a story in an established setting, is told to write a specific story. For example, the book I mentioned above, Queen of Blades, had a quasi-sequal that tried to do something similar, showing the events of the Zerg campaign from Raynors persepective. It sucked. Sometimes you can really tell that the novelist was handed a story and told to make a book out of it.

The reason most of these novels, especially ones for very open settings like Warhammer 40k, Star Wars, or any DnD setting, can be good is that the owners of the setting usually don't have to worry about it, the original material is seen as higher Canon, and inconsistencies are usually seen as flaws in the novel. It's when the owners of the original setting decide to use the novels to push something about the setting that problems can arise.

[AerykVyrion]

I feel your pain. My elementary and middle school years were entirely about the Star Wars universe and the novels that fleshed it out. Most were very good, and I loved every minute of it.
Then Episodes 1, 2, and 3 came along. I was quite offended with them, since they directly conflicted many established storylines and events. But I could take it, cause any new novel that came along was very much either set in the prequels' era, or in the "extended universe". So I pretended that the prequels and everything based on them didn't exist, and continued with my fandom. Eventually, a new set of books came into the storyline that seriously shook everything up a bit, but it was done very well and I found them to be the best books so far.
However, in the couple of books that concluded this story arc, elements from the prequels began to seep in. It didn't quite ruin it, but it tainted it. After that, the books that came after included more things from the prequels than anything else from the established storyline. It actually ruined the previous books for me; I can't read them anymore without getting depressed that the storylines continue in such stupid ways. :smallfrown:

It feels very similar to the situation the FR books are in, that they all have to be set in a Faerun that essentially equals "4e rules."

[hamishspence]

However, in the couple of books that concluded this story arc, elements from the prequels began to seep in. It didn't quite ruin it, but it tainted it. After that, the books that came after included more things from the prequels than anything else from the established storyline. It actually ruined the previous books for me; I can't read them anymore without getting depressed that the storylines continue in such stupid ways. :smallfrown:

Are we talking about New Jedi Order, or the Dark Nest Trilogy?

I don't remember much from the prequels in New Jedi Order.

[Athaniar]

Like it or not, the prequels are the highest level of canon. You can't expect the authors to ignore it just because you don't like it.

[Rutskarn]

Also add stuff from that annie mae!"

Come again? Where are you getting "anime" from Salvatore's setting, or from any iteration of the Forgotten Realms?

[Mr. Scaly]

I think this is why there are so many bad sequels to Don Bluth movies actually. (There is only one Land Before Time.)

Though really, I think it depends entirely on how good the author is. So if the people who own the setting (WotC) employ lots of skilled writers then all will be well in the end.

[AerykVyrion]

The New Jedi Order. It was just near the end, some of the stuff with Zonama Sekot and the way Vergere's force abilities worked. It wasn't much at all, but it did remind me of them. That just kind of startled me, cause I had been actively ignoring the prequels for so long that I almost forgot they were official Star Wars.


Like it or not, the prequels are the highest level of canon. You can't expect the authors to ignore it just because you don't like it.

I know, and I didn't mean to imply that. What I was getting at is that when a series/setting is either owned by someone else, or has so many contributers whose individual stories are all canon, it can change things so drastically that you don't even like it anymore.
It's the same with the FR novels. The owners of the setting made all of these changes because of 4e, and the stories would probably be far better if the authors just continued on as if they never happened... but they officially did. So they have to acknowledge them, and the story suffers because of it.

[Moofaa]

I've read and will continue to read all of Salvatores works, however I must admit his older stuff was better. (Dark Elf Trilogy, Halflings Gem, and Cleric Quintet) with some other good stuff cropping up from time to time. In reality I think the story of Drizzt has kind of dragged on too long.

I like the books he did (cant remember names off top of my head) following Jarlaxle and Enteri, I don't know if he intends (or is allowed) to continue any of their adventures or not.

Ghost King definately struck me as one of the worst novels, and the executive influence definately shows. I still think its maddening how WotC fell back on the cliche of a cataclysm to bring in 4e materials to the forgotten realms. Its really killed my interest.

I think his next novel is about
Gauntlygrym
and maybe that will rekindle some of the spirit, as I really wanted him to pick up that storyline.

[TheThan]

I feel your pain. My elementary and middle school years were entirely about the Star Wars universe and the novels that fleshed it out. Most were very good, and I loved every minute of it.
Then Episodes 1, 2, and 3 came along. I was quite offended with them, since they directly conflicted many established storylines and events. But I could take it, cause any new novel that came along was very much either set in the prequels' era, or in the "extended universe". So I pretended that the prequels and everything based on them didn't exist, and continued with my fandom. Eventually, a new set of books came into the storyline that seriously shook everything up a bit, but it was done very well and I found them to be the best books so far.
However, in the couple of books that concluded this story arc, elements from the prequels began to seep in. It didn't quite ruin it, but it tainted it. After that, the books that came after included more things from the prequels than anything else from the established storyline. It actually ruined the previous books for me; I can't read them anymore without getting depressed that the storylines continue in such stupid ways. :smallfrown:

It feels very similar to the situation the FR books are in, that they all have to be set in a Faerun that essentially equals "4e rules."


It doesn’t help either that Lucas in particular decided that all these books that had been in his universe, and all the work other people put into his universe didn’t matter at all; not to him not to the fans of his movies, not to anyone. That’s what irks me off the most, that he basically gave the middle finger to all these people who contributed to his work and made his universe come alive. It shows he doesn’t care enough about what others have done with his baby to even take a glimpse at their work and maybe just maybe use what they wrote to come up with better stories for your movies.

[Reverent-One]

Are we talking about New Jedi Order, or the Dark Nest Trilogy?


Dark Nest Trilogy is pretty bad about prequel references, I remember something about old recordings on R2-D2 being revealed, set back during or around the prequel movies of course.

[shadow_archmagi]

Ah, Executive Meddling. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExecutiveMeddling)

Not familiar with this particular case, but it's been done with a lot of my favorite media franchises..... so I understand what you feel.

YOU MADE ME LATE FOR CLASS!

You trope-linking swine!

[Knaight]

It's a trade-off for the author. Sure, they have to write the novel according to guidelines and rules set by the editors of the IP (intellectual property) which does stifle their creativity. However, they do gain the marketing power of the IP which helps drive sales, thus making both parties money. Additionally, it gives the author publicity so that he or she can publish and sell original works easier.

Sure, but once they are popular enough they can create their own stuff and just work off name recognition. Take Alan Dean Foster, he did some writings for Star Wars, Dinotopia, etc. early in his career, until he became reasonably well known, at which point he transitioned to Pip & Flinx, The Humanx Commonwealth stories, and smaller books or series that stand alone, such as The Damned or The Journey of the Catechist. Even his Star Wars book (or books, I don't know) are good, but they aren't as good as his work in his settings, with his characters.

[hamishspence]

Even his Star Wars book (or books, I don't know) are good, but they aren't as good as his work in his settings, with his characters.

It's books- he wrote both the novelization of A New Hope (called at the time Star Wars: From The Adventures of Luke Skywalker), and Splinter of the Mind's Eye:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alan_Dean_Foster

though his third Star Wars book was not written until much later.

[The Big Dice]

That’s what irks me off the most, that he basically gave the middle finger to all these people who contributed to his work and made his universe come alive. he graciously allowed a whole buch of people to make him a ton of cash and keep his franchise from dying a death while he became the very thing he was working against when he started out making films, by letting them write what he sees as fan fictions about his life's work. It shows he doesn’t care enough about what others have done with his baby to even take a glimpse at their work and maybe just maybe use what they wrote to come up with better stories for your movies.
Fixed that for you.

The truth of all Expanded Universes is, they're just a way to make some cash of the back of a franchise that otherwise would be dead. Novelisation and audio plays kept Doctor Who alive, and they did their part (along with video games) to keep Star Wars as a viable concern.

Whether or not they're a good thing isn't for me to say, but consider this: it's illegal for a director to look at a script that someone has sent him because of plagiarism and copyright lawsuit potential. If GL took the material from an EU book and just started making a movie with it, even just little bits of it, he could end up with a lawsuit onhis hands when the writer of the EU material starts demanding a wedge of cash.

[Thrawn183]

I think it is a mark of an author's skill to be able to write a novel in someone's setting. I happen to think Timothy Zahn is an amazing writer. I actually picked up quite a few of his independent novels as a result of reading his GA Thrawn trilogy.

[Tyrant]

Whether or not they're a good thing isn't for me to say, but consider this: it's illegal for a director to look at a script that someone has sent him because of plagiarism and copyright lawsuit potential. If GL took the material from an EU book and just started making a movie with it, even just little bits of it, he could end up with a lawsuit onhis hands when the writer of the EU material starts demanding a wedge of cash.
I would assume that the EU is set up like Marvel and DC comics. The writers are doing work on commission and someone else actually owns it and can do what they want with it, like make a movie. I believe the few lawsuits dealing with this have been unsucessful for the artists as they pretty clearly were doing work on contract and the contract holder owns the rights. Like I said, I am assuming that is how they are set up because if Marvel and DC could figure this out decades ago I'm sure Lucas could as well. If it goes to a lawsuit, the writer will very likely lose, and Lucas will have the option to simply drag it out forever and bankrupt the writer.

[snoopy13a]

Whether or not they're a good thing isn't for me to say, but consider this: it's illegal for a director to look at a script that someone has sent him because of plagiarism and copyright lawsuit potential. If GL took the material from an EU book and just started making a movie with it, even just little bits of it, he could end up with a lawsuit onhis hands when the writer of the EU material starts demanding a wedge of cash.

Lucasfilm holds the copyright to the EU books. That's essentially the deal. Lucasfilm authorizes an author to write the book(s) and the author gets a check from Lucasfilm and/or a cut of the profits but Lucasfilm keeps the copyright.

[Telonius]

I think it is a mark of an author's skill to be able to write a novel in someone's setting. I happen to think Timothy Zahn is an amazing writer. I actually picked up quite a few of his independent novels as a result of reading his GA Thrawn trilogy.

Agreed on that - Thrawn introduced me to Zahn as well, and I'm glad to have found such a good writer.

That's kind of the trade-off, though. The author gets to play in somebody else's universe for awhile, but has to play by their rules. Sometimes it works wonderfully, sometimes not so much. But you can hardly fault the authors for wanting to take a job. Publishing is a really hard thing to break into, and having that extra marketing that an existing series gives you, can really catapult somebody in a way that's hard to achieve otherwise. I say this as a self-publishing novelist - getting the word out about your work is absolutely key.

I do think that the more authors involved, the better chance you have of the whole thing spiraling out of control. The old Thieves' World series (edited by Robert Asprin) was pretty much a case study of that. It was a collection of short stories set in a single wretched hive of scum and villainy called Sanctuary. They brought together some of the best fantasy writers of the time, and wove a semi-cohesive narrative for about six or seven amazing books. But somewhere around book 8 (can't remember exactly, it's been over a decade since I've read them), it just got too confusing and convoluted.

[Dubious Pie]

YOU MADE ME LATE FOR CLASS!

You trope-linking swine!

TVTropes Will Ruin Your Life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife), didn't you know? :smalltongue: