Issue regarding the Cafepress T-shirts

[Zombra]

I really enjoy most of the one-liners and quotes on the older Cafepress T-shirts, and I've wanted to buy a shirt and support the strip and GITP for a while, but I can't get past the incredibly annoying fact that these shirts use an obnoxious comic book device: the bold facing of every other noun or phrase. Strangely, the strip itself never does this. My favorite T-shirt text is that on the "Vaarsuvius: Long Rant (http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.87515564)" shirt, but I would never wear such a shirt because the boldface is so distracting and irritating. I like to think that Vaarsuvius him/herself would be equally contemptuous of such blatant gimmickry that attempts to magnetize the eyes of dullards, whose attention might otherwise wander, to the highlights of the text.

See? Isn't that annoying?

I've always been tempted to just go on Cafepress myself and make a revised version of the same shirt, but like I said, I'd prefer to support the strip. If another official version of that shirt was released without the boldface, I would immediately buy it.

[Swordpriest]

Yes, I just went and looked them over, and that weirdly-bolded and variable-size text is pretty annoying-looking. It looks like an attempt to be "funky" that edged over into "obnoxious." A pity, since the shirts are a good idea.

[Pont]

I aggree 100%

[Mystic Muse]

It's a better idea to take this up with Rich himself rather than posting it on here. Although, I'm guessing the response is going to be something along the lines of "Too risky. We probably won't make the money we put in back." That's been his response to a few other requests.

[Maximum Zersk]

I take it you dislike western comics?

[SPoD]

I've always been tempted to just go on Cafepress myself and make a revised version of the same shirt, but like I said, I'd prefer to support the strip.

How incredibly magnanimous of you to not do something blatantly illegal (and against the terms of use for CafePress, too).

Rich designed the shirts the way he wanted them to be seen. It's not your place to decide how to best display his intellectual property. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

[Swordpriest]

Rich designed the shirts the way he wanted them to be seen. It's not your place to decide how to best display his intellectual property. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

"Not your place to decide" -- are you saying that it's not permissible to express an opinion any more, and that saying "gee, I'd like the shirts better if they didn't have the lettering that way" is being uppity and violating some kind of hierarchal division? If the OP had made a personal attack on Rich, then an outraged tone would be justified -- but as it stands, the shock and indignation at someone expressing an opinion at a t-shirt, because doing so supposedly violates their "place in the world" is .... well, ignore-worthy. :smallsigh:

[Zombra]

How incredibly magnanimous of you to not do something blatantly illegal (and against the terms of use for CafePress, too).
You seem to misunderstand my purpose in making the thread. Note that the topic isn't "Everyone please worship me for my great virtue." This isn't about me; it's about GITP improving its products.

Anyway, even if I did make an illegal (gasp!) "bootleg" shirt, I would still be doing the strip and the site a favor. They wouldn't be losing any money, since I'm not going to buy the shirt as is anyway; but I would be giving them free advertising. The Pepsi Corporation would never sue me in a million years if I made a t-shirt that said "Pepsi Rules" in magic marker. This point is obviously debatable but it wouldn't be the clear-cut Evil act you seem to imply. Of course maybe you're Lawful, which is fine if you swing that way I guess.


Rich designed the shirts the way he wanted them to be seen. It's not your place to decide how to best display his intellectual property. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
As a customer, it absolutely is my place, assuming of course that Rich actually wants people to buy his products. It's possible, of course, that he's making some kind of artistic statement by making products he doesn't expect anyone to buy, and if so, I respect that. If he wants my money, however, he had damn well better listen to what I will and will not spend it on.

As far as artistic integrity, I'm not suggesting that Rich make any changes whatsoever to his content. I love his content! I'm not suggesting that V should start wearing a sombrero, or that s/he should start being nicer to Belkar, or that s/he should use more or fewer compound-complex sentences in his/her dialogue. I completely agree with you that that would be way out of line. I'm suggesting that the format of the content's presentation could be less grating. I'm suggesting that GITP put their donuts in nice, light paper boxes instead of soggy brown paper bags. The donuts are the same, but they become less appetizing in a soggy bag. The text is funny either way, but it's more readable without the constant boldface.

Furthermore, it's not your place to tell me what I should and should not say in my posts. You're not a mod. If you don't like my opinions, don't read or respond to them. See what I did there?


I take it you dislike western comics?
Haha. I like some comics and dislike others. I can put up with the boldface thing if the virtues of a comic outweigh the annoyance of it, but on a t-shirt (especially one like the Long Rant), the visual impact of the text itself becomes far more significant.


It's a better idea to take this up with Rich himself rather than posting it on here. Although, I'm guessing the response is going to be something along the lines of "Too risky. We probably won't make the money we put in back." That's been his response to a few other requests.
Yeah, that probably would be more effective (or at least have a better chance of being effective :smalltongue:). I'm not sure I want to get that much in his face though. I guess now I think about it, odds aren't too good that he'll see this thread, are they? Hmm.


I aggree 100%
Thanks for the support, Pont.


Yes, I just went and looked them over, and that weirdly-bolded and variable-size text is pretty annoying-looking. It looks like an attempt to be "funky" that edged over into "obnoxious." A pity, since the shirts are a good idea.
Thank you also for your eloquent support, SP.

[KenderWizard]

I really enjoy most of the one-liners and quotes on the older Cafepress T-shirts, and I've wanted to buy a shirt and support the strip and GITP for a while, but I can't get past the incredibly annoying fact that these shirts use an obnoxious comic book device: the bold facing of every other noun or phrase. Strangely, the strip itself never does this. My favorite T-shirt text is that on the "Vaarsuvius: Long Rant (http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.87515564)" shirt, but I would never wear such a shirt because the boldface is so distracting and irritating. I like to think that Vaarsuvius him/herself would be equally contemptuous of such blatant gimmickry that attempts to magnetize the eyes of dullards, whose attention might otherwise wander, to the highlights of the text.


For an alternative view, I quite like the emphasis provided by the differing sizes. It does draw the eyes of dullards to the highlights, and the eyes of those just casually glancing at your shirt too, regardless of their intelligence!

When you're reading the comic, it's easy to pick up the joke, and know where the emphasis lies. You have context, you have knowledge of the characters, knowledge of the dry tone employed for many of the jokes. If your friend is glancing at your new shirt, anything that allows them to pick up the joke faster is a bonus.

I completely understand how someone could find it annoying, especially if they know the line in question well, but personally, I don't think the shirts suffer from it.

And, actually, if I was going to pick just one to change to normal type without bold or differing sizes, I would choose the Long Rant shirt, because the joke there is really just that it's a ridiculously verbose rant!

[Ted The Bug]

I'm for the most part with you, but I still have a few shirts, and I don't think bold-faced text is a major customer deterrent. Kind of an eyesore? Sure, but I don't find it that annoying.
SPoD, I'm pretty sure he's just complaining about/suggesting something in a sarcastic way, there's no need to get nasty about it. Seriously.

[SPoD]

Anyway, even if I did make an illegal (gasp!) "bootleg" shirt, I would still be doing the strip and the site a favor.

That's your opinion. If Rich believed that giving away shirts for free was beneficial to his long-term interests, he would be doing so right now. It's up to him to determine how and where he advertises his comic, not you.


I'm suggesting that the format of the content's presentation could be less grating. I'm suggesting that GITP put their donuts in nice, light paper boxes instead of soggy brown paper bags.

No, you suggested that you were thinking of stealing his donuts and putting them in your own box, and you don't want to have to do that (with the strong implication that you will, if Rich doesn't do what you ask). You were suggesting that if he doesn't change his shirt to match what you prefer, you will consider it appropriate to then steal from him.


Furthermore, it's not your place to tell me what I should and should not say in my posts. You're not a mod. If you don't like my opinions, don't read or respond to them. See what I did there?

Confused your statement that you are considering committing a crime that takes money out of the pocket of an artist with my ultimately-harmless words written on a message board? One of us is taking a position that undermines another's ability to feed themselves. (It's not me.)

For the record, I don't think you are worth wasting my time trying to dissuade you from stealing a shirt if your demands are not met. I post so that other people don't think what you are saying is acceptable. What's so upsetting here is that if you hadn't included the line about printing your own, this would be a harmless request for a new shirt design. However, your willingness to publicly hint that you're getting your shirt one way or the other, and Rich must choose if he will profit from it or not, makes this little more than an ugly threat.

[The Giant]

Zombra, I'm sorry you don't like the shirt designs I currently offer. I will take your thoughts into consideration when I am next designing new t-shirts. However, the shirts have been on the market for several years and I assure you that the sales are not suffering due to the typographical choices being made. In fact, most of the best-selling shirts that I have ever produced come from that line.

So while you may find it annoying, keep in mind that such is a personal aesthetic decision that is not shared by everyone. Considering that the shirts are selling just fine as-is, there is little incentive for me to spend the time changing them just to suit your tastes. Not only is there no data to suggest that your feelings are widespread--this is the first time I've heard this complaint, and the designs premiered in 2005--but it would only serve to encourage others to request minor design changes to every shirt I produce. The sole reason I use CafePress is so that I can stop worrying about t-shirts and focus on the strip, so doing as you ask would be counterproductive.

Now, going down to your next post, you have definitely misinterpreted some things. The reasons a company like Pepsi wouldn't sue you for such actions are many, but few resonate with my situation. First, Pepsi is a multi-billion dollar company with many large-scale legal issues that need to be dealt with on a daily basis; if they chose not to sue you, it would be because the relative benefit to them is very, very small--not because they realize some secret benefit to you ripping off their trademarks. I, on the other hand, am a multi-hundred dollar company. The commission I get from a CafePress t-shirt is still small, but it is enough for me to eat a meal (as long as it's fast food or a t.v. dinner).

Further, Pepsi and I are working on entirely different business models. Pepsi's product is cola; merchandise just serves as a means to get people to drink cola. My product is merchandise; the free comic serves as a means to get people to buy shirts and books. When you say that you wearing the shirt drives people to read the comic, that's not only unlikely, it doesn't matter. Because getting new readers for the comic is NOT the endgame of my business model, it's the starting point. I have half a million readers who, while appreciated, actually contribute nothing to my tangible income. Less than 2% of my readership buy my books, and my books far outsell all other products. I only sell a few hundred shirts a year, whether through CafePress or Ookoodook. So if you avoid paying me for that shirt, the handful of readers you may contribute are statistically unlikely to provide me with even a penny of real money. But the $6 commission you took out of my pocket is real, right now.

Plus, it is illegal. But the above is why it's not helpful to me even if one doesn't care that it's illegal.

The bottom line is, there are already a wide variety of options for each CafePress design: White or black, long-sleeve or short-sleeve, this quote or that quote. There has to be a place where I decide that the time and energy in creating new options that are not universally demanded outweighs the benefit of doing so, or else I will never get my comic done on time. For me, that line is at changing the designs themselves. I hope you understand.

[Marnath]

Since this hasn't been locked quite yet after the Giants answer, may I just chime in that I like that specific shirt very much? :smallsmile:

[Zombra]

Thanks for your respectful and informative reply, The Giant!

I apologize that it turned into a big debate about the morality of bootleg shirts. That really, really, really wasn't the point, and I assure you that what SPoD interpreted as a threat ... wasn't. I mean it. It was just that every time I looked over the shirt designs, that one drove me crazy because it was so close to perfect, and I wanted to get that frustration off my chest and maybe see if others felt the same way. Then somebody misunderstood and picked a fight and I got all "internet argument".

Sorry again to have wasted your time - though the read about your business model was interesting and did give some nice perspective on the subject!

Do I get any brownie points for being among that less than 2%? :smallwink: It was actually rereading the books that made me think about getting a t-shirt, which led to this thread ...

[Mystic Muse]

I'm in that less than two percent as well (Bought both prequel books). I"ve been thinking about purchasing a poster or Shirt once I can afford it too.

[Ted The Bug]

I'm in that less than two percent as well (Bought both prequel books). I"ve been thinking about purchasing a poster or Shirt once I can afford it too.

Just some advice from someone with all the books (and a shirt): definitely go for the books first. If you don't have every compilation, the extra content and commentary totally outweigh having a picture of a character and a line of dialogue on a shirt. :smallsmile:
And thanks for the response, Giant. Been wondering exactly how you've managed to keep food on the table (or in front of the TV) with the bandwidth costs of running the site. It's great to see someone running an independent comic, doing something that they (hopefully) love, and still getting paid for it. On a product note, I know a few people who read the comic but haven't gotten any of the books, and I've always thought that if you did a few more plugs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), they would be enticed to order one or two of them. But hey, your business is your business, and after years of OOTS, the faster site and continued lack of a donate button speak for themselves.

[PirateMonk]

I have the Long Rant shirt. I can sort of see the bolding now that you mention it, but I never noticed it before, so you may want to just get the shirt and try to ignore it.