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View Full Version : Overcoming a Horrendous Willl Save



AdamSmasher
2010-09-08, 12:21 PM
Specifically, I have a Frenzied Berserker character with a +0 will save. At level 12. I purposefully made it low so my party would be able to stop the rampages, but we were recently only saved from a TPK because I managed to roll TWO lucky natural 20s on saves against being Dominated by a boss.

Next level, the DM is letting my take Righteous Rage as a General feat and having it apply to frenzy, so I want to try and cover my will save a little bit. What can I do to get it up to a reasonable level?

I can try for a cloak of resistance and Steadfast Determination, which could make a huge difference together, but is there a better way? Is there a way to become Immune to Mind affecting effects? I don't mind having a low will save, it's actually a part of my concept. I just don't want to be used AGAINST my own party every time an NPC with a charm spell comes along.

Psyx
2010-09-08, 12:23 PM
Mind Blank.


There's an armour enhancement as well that gives +5 on will saves for a round 3x day.

druid91
2010-09-08, 12:25 PM
You could become half construct....

ericgrau
2010-09-08, 12:25 PM
Protection from evil / magic circle against evil stops dominate and charm, but not other mind affecting effects.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-08, 12:26 PM
I believe Dumb Luck, CSc, allows you to blow a luck point(it gives you one) to treat a 1 on a save as a natural 20. Any save.

It's pretty handy, as you can also use it to save yourself from a terribly unlucky roll on a good save, and you can opt to not use it when you wish to fail.

Frosty
2010-09-08, 12:27 PM
You know, the Grease spell exists for a reason. You don't need a horrible will save at all.

Kaww
2010-09-08, 01:33 PM
Caltrops, entangle, there is a number of ways that are more than able to stop you. Why did you cripple yourself?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-08, 01:41 PM
TBH, getting a bad will save on a barbarian isn't hard. Poor wisdom? Check. Class with poor will progression? Check. If not using fractional saves, it only gets harder. If he took a flaw, well...I can easily see +0.

Also, there's necropolitan.

PId6
2010-09-08, 01:57 PM
Protection from X is the best way, negating most of the worst Will save effects. You're still screwed against spells like Slow or Hold Person though, but at least you won't be taking down your party.

Eldariel
2010-09-08, 02:01 PM
Get a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crystalMaskofMindarmor), Cloak of Resistance and Steadfast Determination-feat [PHBII]; with Con to Will-saves, +4 Insight and +X (eventually 5) Resistance, you'll have little trouble hitting the 20 to not TPK. Pick Planar Touchstone [PlH]: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Pride) if you wanna avoid bothersome natural 1s. But otherwise, yeah, there is a handful of items that bestow Mind Blank, the option of just having party Wizard cast it, and Protection from X.

Darrin
2010-09-08, 02:50 PM
A few things to consider:

Take the Plucky or Detached trait (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedTraits.html).

Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel p. 151). 3000 GP for Iron Will. Follow that up with the Cumbrous Will feat (Savage Species p. 31) for the option to gain +6 on your Will saves in exchange for being shaken for the rest of the encounter. Finish it off with a feat that makes you immune to being shaken. If you can take FR regional feats, Blooded, Bullheaded, or Fearless will work. Otherwise, Planar Touchstone feat linked to the Catalogues of Enlightenment lets you pick up the Dream domain power, which makes you immune to fear effects.

Shape Soulmeld feat, Planar Ward (Magic of Incarnum). One feat blocks all mind control effects, enchantment (charm), and enchantment (compulsion).

Crystal of Mind Cloaking (MIC p. 25), least or lesser augment crystal is fairly cheap. +1 competence bonus vs mind-affecting for 500 GP, or +3 competence bonus vs mind-affecting for 4000 GP.

Adumbration
2010-09-08, 02:53 PM
Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel p. 151). 3000 GP for Iron Will. Follow that up with the Cumbrous Will feat (Savage Species p. 31) for the option to gain +6 on your Will saves in exchange for being shaken for the rest of the encounter.


Aww, I was just about to suggest that. :smallfrown:

Anyway, you're not getting out of rage before near the end of combat, so I'm not sure if it's necessary to invest a feat to gain immunity against fear.

crizh
2010-09-08, 03:33 PM
Protection from Evil is definitely the cheapest way. Have someone Craft it for you as a Contingent Spell. It'll cover 90% of the situations where this is a problem and won't require a massive investment in feats or gold.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-08, 04:37 PM
I gotta know, how did you get your will save to 0? Base Save is +4 and you get at least another +2 for iron will and a +2 for the frenzy 2 more if you rage at the same time. That's between -8 and -10 to get to 0. :eek:

ericgrau
2010-09-08, 04:49 PM
You assume he got iron will when he intentionally made his will save low. I'd say wis 6 or 4 for a -2 or -3. If he multi-classed his bonus will probably be lower than +4. If he took the weak will flaw that's a -3 on will saves. Honestly if he really tried and the DM allowed enough things he could have gotten lower.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-08, 05:14 PM
The DM...you WANT to use stuff from six different sourcebooks to make your will save LOWER? Er...ok.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-08, 05:34 PM
You assume he got iron will when he intentionally made his will save low. I'd say wis 6 or 4 for a -2 or -3. If he multi-classed his bonus will probably be lower than +4. If he took the weak will flaw that's a -3 on will saves. Honestly if he really tried and the DM allowed enough things he could have gotten lower.

You get Iron Will as a bonus feat when you take FB 1, and I default to fractional BAB and saves. I could be wrong about base save, I admit.

Awnetu
2010-09-08, 07:07 PM
I'd suggest rebuilding the character if your dm allows it, a terrible will save does noone any favors and makes it impossible for you to end your frenzies.

If you are worried about turning against the party, get them some bags of marbles or the Grease spell.

That said, another option is Warforged to Warforged Juggernaught, this would require a retcon as far as the story goes, but you can become immune to mind affecting abilities, so Charm never works.

Nine Pointed Star + Cloak of Resistance +5 = +8 Bonus to all saves.

I think the slaves collar would make you immune to mind affecting spells/effects from enemy targets, but good luck roleplaying that in anything other than an evil party.

Cieyrin
2010-09-08, 07:37 PM
Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel p. 151). 3000 GP for Iron Will. Follow that up with the Cumbrous Will feat (Savage Species p. 31) for the option to gain +6 on your Will saves in exchange for being shaken for the rest of the encounter. Finish it off with a feat that makes you immune to being shaken. If you can take FR regional feats, Blooded, Bullheaded, or Fearless will work. Otherwise, Planar Touchstone feat linked to the Catalogues of Enlightenment lets you pick up the Dream domain power, which makes you immune to fear effects.

Actually, you could just add the Brash weapon special ability (from MIC) to your weapon of choice and get immunity to fear while you rage, which is probably when you'd want to use Cumbrous Will, anyways, for the most part.

If it's too expensive, acquire or enhance one of your gauntlets to be a +1 Brash weapon. Hence, you're always wielding your gauntlet and can benefit from it. Instantaneous Rage may be a necessity if you're worried about getting caught unawares but that's not necessarily a bad thing to have, anyways.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-08, 09:18 PM
That said, another option is Warforged to Warforged Juggernaught, this would require a retcon as far as the story goes, but you can become immune to mind affecting abilities, so Charm never works.

it's more than just that, you become immune to nearly everything that normally requires a will save and a lot of things that require a fort save... plus conjuration [healing] spells...



- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and
energy drain.
- A warforged cannot heal lethal damage naturally. Unlike other constructs, warforged are subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, death effects, and necromancy effects.
- As living constructs, warforged can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a warforged can be healed by a cure light wounds spell or a repair light damage spell, for example, and a warforged is vulnerable to disable construct and harm. However, spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effects to a warforged.
- A warforged responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points. A warforged with 0 hit points is disabled, as with a living creature. He can take only a single move action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his hit points are less than 0 and greater than –10, a warforged is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and cannot perform any actions. An inert warforged does not lose additional hit points unless more damage is dealt to him, however, as with a living creature that has become stable.
- As a living construct, a warforged can be raised or resurrected.
- A warforged does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but he can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes’ feast and potions.
- Light Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a warforged, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
- A warforged has a natural weapon in the form of a slam attack that deals 1d4 points of damage.

Construct Perfection (Ex): A warforged that follows the path of the juggernaut seeks to improve itself by embracing its construct heritage. As a warforged juggernaut advances, it abandons what it considers the weaknesses of the living construct form to gain qualities more indicative of true constructs. While retaining its intelligence and sentience, a warforged juggernaut gains the following construct features as it advances in level. Construct Perfection I—At 2nd level, a warforged juggernaut is no longer subject to nonlethal damage or extra damage from critical hits.
Construct Perfection II—At 3rd level, a warforged juggernaut gains immunity to all mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Construct Perfection III—At 4th level, a warforged juggernaut gains immunity to death effects and necromancy effects. Construct Perfection IV—At 5th level, a warforged juggernaut is no longer subject to ability damage or ability drain.
Construct Perfection IV—At 5th level, a warforged juggernaut is no longer subject to ability damage or ability drain.
Healing Immunity: Starting at 3rd level, as a warforged juggernaut becomes more like a construct and less like a living creature, it becomes immune to the effects of spells from the healing subschool. In addition, it can no longer benefi t from the effects of consumable spells and magic items, such as heroes’ feast and potions.

I didn't include the bits from the composite plating since it changes when you take one of the armored body feats, likewise some of the benefits from the base warforged stuff get nullified or modified by the juggernaut stuff. Also page 309 of the MM and a few other sources state that all fear effects are mind affecting, so juggernaut becomes immune to those too :P. Downside of juggernaut is that you are immune to conjuration [healing] spells, you can be repaired back from inert/helpless & unconscious state but losing the body will require wish/limited wish/reincarnate+wish or some kind of DM Fiat to replace :(.

Awnetu
2010-09-09, 12:37 AM
My understanding of that line was it worked just like a Human or Orc for the Frenzied Berserker, and that Complete Warrior just did not take that into account.

I can see how some people would have a problem with that though.

Riffington
2010-09-09, 05:12 PM
Well, you could consider taking Moment of Perfect Mind.
There are flaws (you probably don't have Concentration, it only works once per encounter, and it doesn't work in a Rage/Frenzy.)
But the great part is that it doesn't work in a Rage/Frenzy.

Thurbane
2010-09-09, 09:30 PM
Is there a way to become Immune to Mind affecting effects?
If you're evil, there the Deformity (madness) feat (Elder Evils) - it has one prereq feat, you must be evil, and you take a -4 penalty to Wisdom, but you are immune to mind affecting attacks.

holywhippet
2010-09-09, 09:52 PM
Just use this trick: http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=407