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EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 03:09 PM
Okay, i've decided that i'll be playing a knife fighter (and by knife i do mean dagger) in my next campaign (won't be starting for a while) and i plan to go the full 20 levels of Fighter for the guy. i'll be using the thug and sneak attack variants as well as the fighter variant from champions of valor.

Anyway, i need equipment for the guy, but i'm pretty lost with what to get him. Pathfinder standard wealth by level for a level 10 character, which is 62,000gp, and it's an urban game with a lot of intrigue and sneaking around.

Proposed Build
01 - Fighter 1 | Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
02 - Fighter 2 | +1d6 Sneak Attack*
03 - Fighter 3 | Far Shot, Skill Focus (Intimidate)*
04 - Fighter 4 | Weapon Specialization (Dagger)*, +1 Dexterity
05 - Fighter 5 |
06 - Fighter 6 | Quick Draw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*
07 - Fighter 7 |
08 - Fighter 8 | Greater Weapon Focus (Dagger)*, +1 Dexterity
09 - Fighter 9 | Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
10 - Fighter 10 | +1d6 Sneak Attack*
11 - Fighter 11 |
12 - Fighter 12 | Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Greater-Weapon Specialization (Dagger)*, +1 Dexterity
13 - Fighter 13 |
14 - Fighter 14 | Improved Critical (Dagger)*
15 - Fighter 15 | Slashing Flurry
16 - Fighter 16 | +1d6 Sneak Attack*, +1 Dexterity
17 - Fighter 17 |
18 - Fighter 18 | Weapon Supremacy, +1d6 Sneak Attack*
19 - Fighter 19 |
20 - Fighter 20 | +1d6 Sneak Attack*, +1 ???
* Bonus Feat or Sneak Attack

Abilities: Str 12 (4), Dex 16 (10), Con 14 (6), Int 14 (6), Wis 12 (4), Cha 10 (2); 32
Regional Feat: Bullheaded (+2 to Will Saves, Canít be Shaken)
Flaws: Frail (-1hp/level), Curious (-2 to Listen & Spot, -2 to Initiative)
Traits: Plucky (+1 to Will Saves, -1 to Fort Saves)
ACFs: Thug, Sneaky Fighter, Skilled City-Dweller, Zhentarim Soldier

EDIT: I should probably state that my group has access and is allowed to use every 3.5 book including 3rd party material and dragon magazine.

gomipile
2010-09-08, 03:20 PM
Strongarm Bracers so you can increase your weapons' size category by 1?

Also, I know you specified daggers, but the knife fighters I've built use kukris, both for the cool factor and because they are mechanically better. I'm curious as to what reasons your character would choose to use daggers instead when he knows about and knows how to use kukris?

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 03:28 PM
Strongarm Bracers so you can increase your weapons' size category by 1?

Also, I know you specified daggers, but the knife fighters I've built use kukris, both for the cool factor and because they are mechanically better. I'm curious as to what reasons your character would choose to use daggers instead when he knows about and knows how to use kukris?

Mainly because of throwing, i want to use daggers for both melee and ranged and kukris can't be thrown. Also, daggers are more easily concealed than kukris and i'm planning on the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades, which would supply an endless stream of daggers, even if they only last 3 rounds.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-08, 03:38 PM
The Sneak Attack Fighter variant is all or nothing, you either don't get any sneak attack and keep all the bonus feats, or you lose all the bonus feats and gain full sneak attack progression. Plus it gives sneak attack as the Rogue progression, so its gained on the odd numbered levels. You don't get the option whether to choose a bonus feat or sneak attack at any given level, if you're using the sneak attack variant there are no bonus feats.

gomipile
2010-09-08, 03:40 PM
Mainly because of throwing, i want to use daggers for both melee and ranged and kukris can't be thrown. Also, daggers are more easily concealed than kukris and i'm planning on the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades, which would supply an endless stream of daggers, even if they only last 3 rounds.

That would do it. Anyway, back to your original question:

Boots of Speed are just awesome for the price.

The various flavors of Bag of Tricks can come in very handy, and due to their random nature, are very fun roleplaying and fluff-wise.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 03:43 PM
The Sneak Attack Fighter variant is all or nothing, you either don't get any sneak attack and keep all the bonus feats, or you lose all the bonus feats and gain full sneak attack progression. Plus it gives sneak attack as the Rogue progression, so its gained on the odd numbered levels. You don't get the option whether to choose a bonus feat or sneak attack at any given level, if you're using the sneak attack variant there are no bonus feats.

:smallannoyed:

My DM decided to let me alternate between the two, so that doesn't apply in this case.

BRC
2010-09-08, 03:55 PM
Can I ask why you're going for a Fighter instead of a Rogue? A Rogue seems to fit better thematically.


Also, I would go with a Kukuri or a Shortsword (Perhaps refluffed) As your primary meele weapon. Grab Quick Draw (Something you'll want anyway if you expect to ambush or be ambushed) and keep several daggers on you as throwing weapons/holdout melee weapons.

Also, it might be a good idea to check out Complete Scoundrel, put a hidden blade in each boot, maybe some wrist blades, if you're wearing heavy enough armor, knee or elbow blades. Your general philosophy should be to ALWAYS have another knife on your person.

Using light weapons means a high strength score won't be much help, if you roll well, consider a couple levels of Swashbuckler to grab free Weapon Finesse and Int to Damage. If you have Rogue SA progression, either from rogue levels or from varient fighter levels, you can grab Daring Outlaw (From Complete Scoundrel) to have your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Sneak attack and grace progresison.
You'll be discarding weapons alot, look into Weapon Crystals from the MIC for your weapon-boosting needs.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 04:16 PM
Can I ask why you're going for a Fighter instead of a Rogue? A Rogue seems to fit better thematically.

I'm using the thug variant from UA, and actually it fits my character better, i never go for what works best but for what fits the character best. I even use sub optimal choices because they fit the character, so does everyone else in our group. We're all role-play oriented rather than power oriented.


Also, I would go with a Kukuri or a Shortsword (Perhaps refluffed) As your primary meele weapon. Grab Quick Draw (Something you'll want anyway if you expect to ambush or be ambushed) and keep several daggers on you as throwing weapons/holdout melee weapons.

Again, i prefer daggers because they're versatile. You can throw them and conceal them easily, plus they're effective in combat. Also, i already have Quick Draw in the proposed build in the OP.


Also, it might be a good idea to check out Complete Scoundrel, put a hidden blade in each boot, maybe some wrist blades, if you're wearing heavy enough armor, knee or elbow blades. Your general philosophy should be to ALWAYS have another knife on your person.

Already have two boot blades and two sleeve blades. Also i use light armor because i focus more on dexterity than strength. And the philosophy is exactly what i'm going for.


Using light weapons means a high strength score won't be much help, if you roll well, consider a couple levels of Swashbuckler to grab free Weapon Finesse and Int to Damage. If you have Rogue SA progression, either from rogue levels or from varient fighter levels, you can grab Daring Outlaw (From Complete Scoundrel) to have your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Sneak attack and grace progresison.
You'll be discarding weapons alot, look into Weapon Crystals from the MIC for your weapon-boosting needs.

I'm using point buy, not rolling and i'm using straight fighter. Thanks on the weapon crystals, i'll give a look.

BRC
2010-09-08, 04:46 PM
Fair enough.

I'd double check those varients, as was said above, I don't think you can pick and choose when you get Fighter feats and when you get SA.
If you're using Sneak Attack, I'd be wary about taking a penalty to initiative, being able to sneak attack that first round while your opponents are still flat footed can be a game changer.

As for equipment, maybe an item that lets you use Mage Hand (Like Hand of the Mage, but without taking up a slot) to retrieve thrown daggers.

Damage reduction is the bane of anybody who relies on lots of attacks to deal damage. Be sure to grab, at the very least, masterwork Adamantine, Silver, and Cold Iron weapons.
A quick look through the MIC says the Gauntlets of Extended Range, and the Gauntlets of Throwing might be useful. I know your going for Gauntlet of Endless blades, but maybe you can modify the price to get the effects of one of the other gauntlets in a different slot.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 04:49 PM
:smallannoyed:

My DM decided to let me alternate between the two, so that doesn't apply in this case.

I already covered the sneak attack variant.

EDIT: And the various metalline weapons is a good idea. I'll see about getting one of each.

BRC
2010-09-08, 05:01 PM
I already covered the sneak attack variant.

EDIT: And the various metalline weapons is a good idea. I'll see about getting one of each.
So you did, sorry. By way of apology, I looked through the MIC again. Gauntlets of Endless blades is good here, but if you want another option there is the Belt of Hidden Pockets, 30 small bags of holding (20 of which are hidden).

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 06:28 PM
So you did, sorry. By way of apology, I looked through the MIC again. Gauntlets of Endless blades is good here, but if you want another option there is the Belt of Hidden Pockets, 30 small bags of holding (20 of which are hidden).

I know that one, it could be useful. No i have to decide between it and a healing belt.

Cieyrin
2010-09-08, 07:21 PM
I know that one, it could be useful. No i have to decide between it and a healing belt.

Or just get both. The Healing Belt you can put on when you need to heal and put the Pocket Belt on the rest of the time. Or, if switching belts bugs you, combine the belts, as adding a Healing Belt to the Pocket Belt isn't that expensive, a little over 1k or so. Drop in the bucket, really.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 08:10 PM
Or just get both. The Healing Belt you can put on when you need to heal and put the Pocket Belt on the rest of the time. Or, if switching belts bugs you, combine the belts, as adding a Healing Belt to the Pocket Belt isn't that expensive, a little over 1k or so. Drop in the bucket, really.

If i can convince my DM to let me. I highly doubt it though TT_TT

The Rabbler
2010-09-08, 08:24 PM
might I suggest some Martial Study/Martial Stance feats? If you do this and grab a shadow hand stance, you could also get Shadow Blade for dex to damage. And maneuvers are useful in general. A few of the better ones are: Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Clarity, and (one of my personal favorites) Shadow Garrote. For your build, I'd suggest getting Assassin's Stance for a permanent +2d6 SA.

AslanCross
2010-09-08, 08:55 PM
Meteoric Knife: For 2800 or so, you have a +1 dagger than can become a flaming, returning dagger that bursts into flame (with splash damage). Available at really low levels. At higher levels you can have lots of them.

Gauntlet of Infinite Blades as suggested is also good.

Now I'm very iffy on your Fighter 20 build as there are other ways of doing it and you have access to all books. I can't give a detailed build right now, but I'd suggest adding at least some Warblade levels for martial study.

Bloodstorm Blade is best used with a big two-handed weapon, so it might not fit, but I'm sure Master Thrower can give you at least some ranged advantage.

realbombchu
2010-09-08, 09:05 PM
Hi, I'm glad to see you're still working on your knifer. I thought you wanted to have strong survival skills too. I can't check the spoiler on my PSP, but did you switch Gather Information and Knowledge (local) for Knowledge (nature) and Survival? Because that could work.

I don't know enough about pathfinder rules and items, but anything from 3.5 still works, right?

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 09:06 PM
:smallsigh: This is about equipment, not the build. I believe i made that clear at the very beginning, I know Martial Study would help, but what would i replace to get it? I'm sticking with what i have, this will be my first ever non-gish warrior and i'd prefer to keep away from ToB for this build (not that it's banned or anything).

I'm not trying to optimize here otherwise i would have played a warblade or swordsage.

EDIT: Realbombchu, i'm playing 3.5, just using pathfinder WBL

Flickerdart
2010-09-08, 09:09 PM
A knife in one hand and a fighter in the other.

gomipile
2010-09-08, 09:10 PM
A knife in one hand and a fighter in the other.

"I heard you like fighters so I put a fighter in your fighter." That sort of thing?

Demons_eye
2010-09-08, 09:12 PM
I thought pack rat could be a cool feat for a knife fighter. You get your gear taken away and pull out a knife from your boot. Its taken away so you pull another from your shelve. They could never find them all but they would be normal daggers.

AslanCross
2010-09-08, 09:15 PM
:smallsigh: This is about equipment, not the build. I believe i made that clear at the very beginning, I know Martial Study would help, but what would i replace to get it? I'm sticking with what i have, this will be my first ever non-gish warrior and i'd prefer to keep away from ToB for this build (not that it's banned or anything).

I'm not trying to optimize here otherwise i would have played a warblade or swordsage.

Ok then. Meteoric Knife and Gauntlet of Infinite Blades are definitely up there as they're fairly cheap and allow you to always have a knife on you.

You might also want to get a Metalline property dagger eventually, so that DR/(metal) doesn't screw over your damage output.

An Anklet of Translocation is a limited per day teleport item that will allow you to quickly get out of (or into) trouble.

A custom ring that allows you to use Steeldance (Spell Compendium) a number of times per day will allow you to get even more attacks per turn without needing TWF.

Flickerdart
2010-09-08, 09:18 PM
"I heard you like fighters so I put a fighter in your fighter." That sort of thing?
A dagger is a tiny object, meaning you could easily wield, say, a pixie in one hand without too much fuss.

Shyftir
2010-09-08, 09:28 PM
If you want to be a knife fighting warrior with sneak attack, I highly recommend a Swashbuckler/Fighter to Invisible Blade/Master thrower combo.

Ala this character:

Derrian Lafaux (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=167929)

You want to start with Swashbuckler for the skill points, then use fighter to get the necessary feats to quickly reach Invisible Blade, You can easily meet the prereqs for Master Thower as you gain your 5 levels of Invisible Blade. I believe the sheet there has a custom weapon which is a dagger version of Gloves of Endless Javelins +1 but Gauntlet of Infinite Blades is better anyway I just was unaware of it at the time I made the character.

EDIT:
I honestly think that TWF isn't really worth the feat investment on a knife fighter/thower. You'll get plenty of daggers off anyway.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 09:28 PM
Ok then. Meteoric Knife and Gauntlet of Infinite Blades are definitely up there as they're fairly cheap and allow you to always have a knife on you.

I'll look into the meteoric knife. Surprisingly i've never heard of it before.


You might also want to get a Metalline property dagger eventually, so that DR/(metal) doesn't screw over your damage output.

I was thinking of this for my melee daggers, although it would be inefficient to use it on thrown daggers.


An Anklet of Translocation is a limited per day teleport item that will allow you to quickly get out of (or into) trouble.

I'll look into it, sounds like fun.


A custom ring that allows you to use Steeldance (Spell Compendium) a number of times per day will allow you to get even more attacks per turn without needing TWF.

Not what i was going for but that's what refluffing is for, right?

EDIT: Shyftir, how many times must i say i'm using the fighter and nothing else. Unless i get 18 levels of fighter i can't take Weapon Supremacy, which is what i'm aiming for.

Saint GoH
2010-09-08, 10:21 PM
A lot of posts, not gonna lie. If yer into Eberron there is teh Drow Long Knife. basically a dagger but does a d6. Uses all the same feats as a dagger and what not, so Wep Spec: Dagger also works for the Drow Long Knife. So yes, you can throw them and essentially use the Gauntlet of Blades.

true_shinken
2010-09-08, 10:35 PM
If you are going for a knife fighter and you even intend to throw'em, you might want some Invisible Blade in there.
Thug fighter + Swashbuckler might work better, also. Specially with Daring Outlaw.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 10:41 PM
A lot of posts, not gonna lie. If yer into Eberron there is teh Drow Long Knife. basically a dagger but does a d6. Uses all the same feats as a dagger and what not, so Wep Spec: Dagger also works for the Drow Long Knife. So yes, you can throw them and essentially use the Gauntlet of Blades.

That could work, but what do I replace to get it?


EDIT: How many times must i say i'm using the fighter and nothing else. Unless i get 18 levels of fighter i can't take Weapon Supremacy, which is what i'm aiming for.

Again, i've covered why i'm staying a fighter, please don't make me repeat it again

gomipile
2010-09-08, 10:50 PM
That could work, but what do I replace to get it?


You replace as many daggers as you want to with Drow Long Knives. Its a type of weapon.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-08, 10:51 PM
You replace as many daggers as you want to with Drow Long Knives. Its a type of weapon.

Feat for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, not the weapons

gomipile
2010-09-08, 11:07 PM
Ah, I see what you mean.

Well, a custom item of the spell Enlarge Weapon would work once per turn if you have the swift action to spare. And yes, since the Rules Compendium, swift action spells from items do only take a swift action to activate.

El Dorado
2010-09-09, 12:02 AM
Feat for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, not the weapons

I was thinking about Far Shot but I'm not sure if an extra point of damage (1d4 dagger vs 1d6 long knife) is worth it. With Far Shot, you suffer a -2 penalty when making a sneak attack at 30 feet. Without Far shot, the penalty's -4. I guess it depends on your tactics. Were you planning on mostly melee and occasionally ranged combat?

herrhauptmann
2010-09-09, 12:39 AM
I would recommend 'durable' armor, or the blueshine armor enchantments. Both make your armor impervious to acid/rust and are flatcost.
There's also everbright for your daggers, another flatcost, but with as many daggers as you're going to have, it might be worthwhile to only place it on your primary melee weapons.
Any of the 3 are a lot better than taking up an item slot for the rusting gauntlet (which has no effect vs acid)

VirOath
2010-09-09, 01:37 AM
I can't give much advice on this, but Kudos. The dagger seems to be underestimated far too often.

Ended up playing a weapon master type fighter in a campaign that lasted until late levels with no PCs being offensive casters. Early on I ended up getting a +2 dagger as monster loot, never upgraded it and just wrote it down on my sheet and forgot about it.

The only times I would notice it was when I was looking down my gear and stuff for something to pull victory out of the jaws of defeat. And there, I always found that +2 dagger. That dagger ended up being the trump card during the campaign, it had critted far, far too often, and always at the right moment.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-10, 06:18 PM
Yeah, but in an urban campaign they're rather inconspicuous compared to other weapons and can be hidden on my character's person fairly easily.

ericgrau
2010-09-10, 06:32 PM
For equipment, here's vanilla fighter gear:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20

Due to your extra wealth I'd use row 11. Replace strength with dex. Your "magic AC" should be lower without a shield. This should give you a good bland baseline, then you can adjust to fit in items you might like.

Or keep strength boosts, ditch weapon finesse, make dex to 13, magically boost it to 15, then don't go beyond ITWF b/c honestly an attack at a -10 or -15 isn't really worth a feat anyway. A +10 & +5 damage at higher levels from a 30+ strength is like having 3 more & 2 more sneak attack dice. Or not, if dex better fits your flavor or if you're getting sneak attacks by beating your target's initiative.

heymejack
2010-09-11, 06:50 AM
shouldn't you be doing a wizard/rogue/drunken master with a specialization in dragontooth daggers and that one feat that gives you +1.67 to your grapple checks?


:smalltongue:



congrats on knowing what you want.

EdroGrimshell
2010-09-11, 11:51 AM
congrats on knowing what you want.

More like i'm being given information i didn't ask for, i asked for equipment advice and i'm being given character advice.

If i asked about character advice i'd have taken it in a heartbeat.

The reason for it is actually part of a challenge one of my fellow players gave everyone. We have five players, a straight wizard (enchanter), a straight cleric (with the trickery domain), a strait specialist (PC version of the Expert (http://www.amazon.com/Experts-v-3-5-Comprehensive-Sourcebook-Role-Playing/dp/0972251197)), a straight rogue, and myself. We're actually playing PC versions of the NPC classes.

Gametime
2010-09-12, 12:07 PM
Look into the Desert Throwing Knife from Sandstorm. It's an exotic weapon and probably not worth the feat for proficiency, but it's got a 15 ft. range increment (and 1d6 damage). Worth keeping a few on you for when you need to throw beyond your dagger's maximum range, I'd wager, since eating a non-proficiency penalty is still better than not being able to reach someone at all.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 12:15 PM
Look into the Desert Throwing Knife from Sandstorm. It's an exotic weapon and probably not worth the feat for proficiency, but it's got a 15 ft. range increment (and 1d6 damage). Worth keeping a few on you for when you need to throw beyond your dagger's maximum range, I'd wager, since eating a non-proficiency penalty is still better than not being able to reach someone at all.

Skillful enchantment and that crystal that gives returning and you are set. Nice find.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 12:20 PM
Skillful enchantment and that crystal that gives returning and you are set. Nice find.Lesser and Greater Crystals of Return only allow you to summon the weapon to your hand with a move action (from 30' or any place on the same plane, respectively). Oh, and Quick Draw like the Least version.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 12:24 PM
Lesser and Greater Crystals of Return only allow you to summon the weapon to your hand with a move action (from 30' or any place on the same plane, respectively). Oh, and Quick Draw like the Least version.
That's what I mean, really. You won't get one more than one shot at something so farand trying to run anyway.
...unless it's a sudden stunning weapon, of course.
EDIT: even better: Spell Storing. Or spellblade. Cast a stun/daze effect at the weapon, keep it. When someone tries to run, throw it.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 12:29 PM
That's what I mean, really. You won't get one more than one shot at something so farand trying to run anyway.Since you'd use it for targets farther than 30' (since closer and you could just use a dagger), you'd have to get the Greater Version, which requires a +3 weapon to add. Doesn't seem economically feasible for such a narrow use.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 01:49 PM
Since you'd use it for targets farther than 30' (since closer and you could just use a dagger), you'd have to get the Greater Version, which requires a +3 weapon to add. Doesn't seem economically feasible for such a narrow use.

Well, you only need ONE attack with it. You don't even need the crystal, you could just pick it up from the ground.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 01:54 PM
Well, you only need ONE attack with it. You don't even need the crystal, you could just pick it up from the ground.So you agree with me. :smallamused: