Mass Effect II.3 - I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite Thread on Citadel!

[Trixie]

Now with 50% more Shadow Brokers per minute.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Shouldn't the title of this be "I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the Citadel!" or "I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread in the Playground!" or something like that? :smallamused:

[Trixie]

Well, I didn't wanted the line to be broken due to length, but I guess it should be. Anyone else for the change? :smalltongue:

[VanBuren]

Shouldn't the title of this be "I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the Citadel!" or "I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread in the Playground!" or something like that? :smallamused:

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite suggestion in the topic.

[Cristo Meyers]

LadyMeyers just finished the carchase segment of Shadowbroker.

Best chase dialogue ever :smallbiggrin:

"A head-on collision at this speed..."

"Yeah, I've heard those can be bad for you."

[Trixie]

Sorry, had to shorten the line a bit, apparently we run into max thread name character limit :smallsigh:

[Giggling Ghast]

Why not just shorten it to "This is my favourite thread on the Citadel!" We'd all get the joke.

Alternately, I like "You Humans Are All Racist!"

[Zevox]

How about "this my favorite thread ITP?" Easy abbreviation of the previously-suggested "in the playground" version of the line.

Zevox

[Esser-Z]

LadyMeyers just finished the carchase segment of Shadowbroker.

Best chase dialogue ever :smallbiggrin:

"A head-on collision at this speed..."

"Yeah, I've heard those can be bad for you."

Oh man. The chase banter was great. Supergreat.

Liara is a horrible backseat driver. Shepard is a horribly dangerous driver--which makes sense. She's used to driving physics-screwing tanks and hovertanks!

[VanBuren]

I found an interesting article in Gamasutra about why FemShep is so popula (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30143/Analysis_On_FemSheps_Popularity_In_Mass_Effect.php ?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+GamasutraNews+(Gamasutra+News)) r. It may not be accurate, but it's certainly an interesting take.


With the more general hypothesis out of the way, the second is that people play as the female version precisely because Commander Shepard is male in all other ways. The lines, the character animations and various other tidbits are male-oriented in a way that makes FemShep more than your stereotypical RPG female protagonist. For one, she wears practical armor. Well, mostly, but it is science fiction after all; we can accept floating visors and the like.

Mass Effect is a bit of an odd franchise because while all the official materials that relate to marketing and the like showcase a man, leading many to assume that the canonical Shepard is one, the story within makes every effort to avoid such insinuations. Pronouns are used sparingly and often tend to be gender neutral at best and at worst the “he/she” conversion is integrated smoothly into the dialogue. Even in the Mass Effect: Redemption comic series, they refrain from referring to the Commander as one or the other, going so far as to say that it’s difficult to discern gender from the remains they found.
(...)
But even with these intentionally neutral mechanics, many of the other male characteristics seep into the FemShep gameplay. For example, you can choose to dance at the clubs present in the game, be it Afterlife or the Eternity Bar or what-have-you. Because the option was there and I happened to notice it, I figured I’d go ahead and dance a bit. Never know, right? Dancing could, theoretically, be an important part of the game.

And it was.

But that wasn’t because some quest triggered or an NPC wandered up to offer me a job. This was an important moment in my gameplay because Commander Shepard, my FemShep, was doing the standard animation that all the NPC male dancers perform. She swayed to and fro while the other females cut a proverbial rug.

Course it doesn't mention the voice acting at all.

[Esser-Z]

Hm. Interesting. She definitely does come of as, as they say in the vernacular, 'one of the boys'.

[Yana]

The voice acting is what makes Femshep Commander Shepard for me. Jennifer Hale has been one of my favorite voice actresses since Tales of Symphonia.

[Esser-Z]

The voice acting is definitely a big huge part of it for me. Hale's a very good voice actor (There's all of... one line I can think of she delivers badly, between two games).


I prefer FemShep for more than just the voice, but I'm not quite sure how to explain why. I'll just say she's awesome!

Speaking of male-oriented, I'm so glad the Aegis armor finally decided to conform to a female model, instead of giving me a sudden mantorso like Inferno and Cerberus (not that I used them anyway, really, what with the not being modular). It doesn't hurt that it has amazing stats.

Plus, the helmet (like the collector armor) lets me pretend she's a Kamen Rider! :smalltongue:

[Toastkart]

Just finished the shadow broker dlc on my female paragon adept.

My biggest complaint was that the sound kept cutting in and out during the car chase scene. Anybody else have that happen to them?


The Broker himself was... underwhelming to be honest. I touched on it earlier but I really expected him to be more Illusive Man-esque. For someone with shadow in his name he looked like they'd got Gary Larsona to do a big Far Side-ish buisiness fly sitting in his cubicle for another day in the office for their concept. Maybe that was the point, but it was still weird. He also didn't ramble on enough.

I was also semi-disappointed with the shadow broker himself. I was expecting more of a battle of words before the fight than I got. Still, it was a very interesting fight.


The Assassin was the best boss fight in the game. So much durability, and her teleporting around made her hard to pin down and good at taking out my allies. Plus I love how I beat her - once her shields and armor were down, I tossed a shockwave at her as payback for all the ones she had thrown at me, and it knocked her off the edge of the balcony .


I knocked her off the edge, too. Although I did it with singularity and a warp explosion. I really liked Vasir. Her arguement kind of put my shepard in her place. I also liked the hostage situation. Makes me curious how different that line goes based on past decisions. Mine went something like: "I sacrificed hundreds of human lives to save the destiny ascension. I personally destroyed the last rachni queen. I hope your escape plan doesn't hinge on me not sacrificing a damn hostage." Then Vasir got hit with a table!


The cinematics throughout were awesome too. I just found myself wishing that they had incorporated Sheperd's powers into them, so my Adept Sheperd could do some of that blue-glowing biotic stuff while wrestling with the assassin or fighting the Broker in those scenes. Really hope they do that in game 3.

Definitely agree. The limitations of those cut scenes is a big, but understandable, letdown for the ME series as a whole. I noticed when I confronted the shadow broker, shep pulled out her tempest. Then when it showed Shep again, she had her pistol in her hand. Also, there was one point where Garrus was clearly not in the backseat during the car chase.


One thing is that even though I'm playing a female Shepard it was treating me as male (refering to 'him', and Tali's interest in human body language). You can read them all here if you want.

Tali's was the only one that seemed to think my fem shep was a guy that I noticed. Maybe she and engineer Donnelly...



As mentioned numerous times, I wanted to beat Feron's head in... however you can ask Liara what the deal is and she says 'Just friends... you've made it pretty clear I'm taken'. Not sure if this is similar for non-Liara/Shep 'shippers though, so maybe if you're not involved with her they get together?
The dialogue about him being a 'good friend' is vague enough that it's a possability for ME3.

I didn't romance Liara. When I asked, she said that he was so traumatized and that because she had saved him she couldn't take advantage of him.


The stage design was incredible, especially for the Shadow Broker's lair. I was very impressed with what they came up with for that and how it worked out, visually and gameplay-wise.

The visuals were absolutely stunning. I spent about five minutes after all the baddies had been killed looking out of the hole that was blown in the office building. I kinda felt guilty after Liara said looking at scenery was an insult to Feron. Although, apparently not enough guilt as I spent a good deal of time looking at the sky while on the hull of the shadow broker's ship.

Here's some questions for others who have played the dlc:

After Vasir is dead and you're talking to Liara, there were a couple paragon interrupts. are there also renegade interrupts for this conversation? Second, Shepard said something about jumping several light years and that they'd have time to talk on the ship, so why does she insist on talking to Liara while they're still on Illium? That didn't make a lot of sense to me.

My overall assessment: It was friggin' awesome and much fun. Well worth the price.

[Esser-Z]

Speaking of Garrus, he's a pretty great sniper, yes? (see: Omega). When the assassin was running, I was kinda yelling "Garrus! Shoot her!". I suppose he didn't have time to pull out his gun and ready a shot, plus it'd break the storytelling and all, but still. >.>


Don't think there are any renegade interrupts there. Might be after the paragon ones, but I mashed right, so. As for talking right then... my Adrian, at least, was worried about her Liara. :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

My biggest complaint was that the sound kept cutting in and out during the car chase scene. Anybody else have that happen to them?
Didn't have any such issue myself, no.


I knocked her off the edge, too. Although I did it with singularity and a warp explosion. I really liked Vasir. Her arguement kind of put my shepard in her place. I also liked the hostage situation. Makes me curious how different that line goes based on past decisions. Mine went something like: "I sacrificed hundreds of human lives to save the destiny ascension. I personally destroyed the last rachni queen. I hope your escape plan doesn't hinge on me not sacrificing a damn hostage." Then Vasir got hit with a table!
She did have a good argument, yes - though if the game were accounting for my actions at the end of the main story, I should have been able to tell her that I'd ditched Cerberus. And, you know, personally halted a good number of their terrible actions.

I got almost the same hostage situation. As I recall, it was more or less: "I sacrificed hundreds of human lives to save the Destiny Ascension. I unleashed the Rachni on the galaxy. I hope for your sake that your escape plan doesn't depend on me hesitating to shoot a single damn hostage."
Zevox

[Esser-Z]

Yeah, I was hoping to be able to tell her I was just using Cerberus' resources out of necessity. Alas.

I dug the bluffing out of a hostage situation. Shepard seems REALLY GOOD at hostage freeing.

[Cristo Meyers]

I found an interesting article in Gamasutra about why FemShep is so popula (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30143/Analysis_On_FemSheps_Popularity_In_Mass_Effect.php ?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+GamasutraNews+(Gamasutra+News)) r. It may not be accurate, but it's certainly an interesting take.



Course it doesn't mention the voice acting at all.

I don't buy it, not entirely. I don't buy the notion that Shepard's actions throughout the games are somehow stereotypically male. It's a cop-out rather than actually giving an explanation as to why Shepard would choose certain actions over others (as to bad dancing...some girls just don't have any rhythm :smalltongue:)

My own theory is some weird mish-mash of better voice acting (Meer is just so...bland sometimes), leftover bitterness over Revan (KOTOR) being canonically declared male, and just preferring to look at a woman. But that's only on the days where I bother thinking about why I prefer one over the other, which isn't often.

[Gralamin]

FemShep is so popular.

Actually she isn't - Only 20% of Shepards in total are FemSheps. (Source (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/111/1117896p1.html) - it may be in the Xbox 360 part of IGN, but the data is clearly all versions).

[Esser-Z]

I was fine with MaleRevan, because that way I could do the great Bastila romance-redemption bit (which is especially great playing around the time of the prequels).


No Shepard can dance. I'm willing to bet Hannah (If you're a spacer, like mine) can't either.

Gralamin: That information is certainly interesting, given my experiences online--the places I go seem to overall swing towards FemShep. Possible people who post on nerdy places prefer her, while people who don't are more mansheppy? Heh.


Hm. I wonder how big an effect on ME3 the end of LotSB will have. It seems like it should be pretty big, getting my girlfriend as Shadow Broker and all... But it's paid DLC. Maybe there'll be a bonus for Sheps who did it, with those who didn't having some other default? Kinda like the default save for those who had no ME1 save.

[Toastkart]

Speaking of Garrus, he's a pretty great sniper, yes? (see: Omega). When the assassin was running, I was kinda yelling "Garrus! Shoot her!". I suppose he didn't have time to pull out his gun and ready a shot, plus it'd break the storytelling and all, but still. >.>
I was thinking the same thing.



Don't think there are any renegade interrupts there. Might be after the paragon ones, but I mashed right, so. As for talking right then... my Adrian, at least, was worried about her Liara. :smallbiggrin:

I'll have to check when I get around to my renegade infiltrator play through.


She did have a good argument, yes - though if the game were accounting for my actions at the end of the main story, I should have been able to tell her that I'd ditched Cerberus. And, you know, personally halted a good number of their terrible actions.

yeah, I actually kind of wish I could do that or at least say that I took out my fair share of cerberus operatives too.


I got almost the same hostage situation. As I recall, it was more or less: "I sacrificed hundreds of human lives to save the Destiny Ascension. I unleashed the Rachni on the galaxy. I hope for your sake that your escape plan doesn't depend on me hesitating to shoot a single damn hostage."

I'm guessing only the first two parts change, then. I wonder if the renegade choice is the same way?

[Cristo Meyers]

I was fine with MaleRevan, because that way I could do the great Bastila romance-redemption bit (which is especially great playing around the time of the prequels).

Yeah, I was a little annoyed, I suppose, but it was still a very unpopular decision among the fanbase. Anyway, Off-topic discussion is Off-topic.



Gralamin: That information is certainly interesting, given my experiences online--the places I go seem to overall swing towards FemShep. Possible people who post on nerdy places prefer her, while people who don't are more mansheppy? Heh.

Probably. There's a pretty big gap between the population of internet communities and the total gamerbase.

Personally I just like the idea of having more female protagonists that don't seem to treat being a woman like it's some kind of personality trait. Especially after what's happened to poor Samus...

[Esser-Z]

Oh yeah. I also enjoyed saying "I got better" again. To another Asari, even! But much, much more nicely. Hale puts so much venom into it when you're talking to Nassana.


Also, the line about marriage, old age, and little blue kids. <3




Personally I just like the idea of having more female protagonists that don't seem to treat being a woman like it's some kind of personality trait. Especially after what's happened to poor Samus...

Agreed. That's another big part of my femshep (almost typed femslash here. I do ship her with Liara, but that's not the main point) preference.

As for Samus, it was all fine and dandy when Other M was going to be a prequel, with her at the beginning of her career. With it's actual position in the timeline... yeahno.

[Cristo Meyers]

yeah, I actually kind of wish I could do that or at least say that I took out my fair share of cerberus operatives too.


Yeah, LadyMeyers and I caught that too. Especially weird for something that I'm pretty certain is supposed to take place after attacking the collector base and leaving Cerberus.

I guess the asari just wasn't as well informed as she thought.

[dromer]

SHADOW BROKER SPOILAHS.
I played my BroShep Vanguard, and the Spectre fight was fun, especially since I accidentally killed her by charging her off the ledge. My friend said it took 30 minutes for him to beat her. It took me 5.
Also, I'm greatly enjoying the perks the base gives you.

[Esser-Z]

Yeah, LadyMeyers and I caught that too. Especially weird for something that I'm pretty certain is supposed to take place after attacking the collector base and leaving Cerberus.

I guess the asari just wasn't as well informed as she thought.

It works fine before the suicide mission--you get the intel from Cerberus, after all, and Liara does have some dialogue relating to the mission-- played it on my current runthrough of Adrian, instead of one of her finished games.


You could, theoretically, do it before finishing Illium recruiting--Liara leaving her console on for giving you information and all.


I sort of feel like nothing is supposed to be post-Suicide Mission, because there's a pretty nice ending there, y'know?

SO MANY SPOILER TAGS. They have assumed control of the thread!

[Cristo Meyers]

SHADOW BROKER SPOILAHS.
I played my BroShep Vanguard, and the Spectre fight was fun, especially since I accidentally killed her by charging her off the ledge. My friend said it took 30 minutes for him to beat her. It took me 5.
Also, I'm greatly enjoying the perks the base gives you.

The character dossiers are great. Finding out about Garrus' visor playlist was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:


It works fine before the suicide mission--you get the intel from Cerberus, after all, and Liara does have some dialogue relating to the mission-- played it on my current runthrough of Adrian, instead of one of her finished games.


You could, theoretically, do it before finishing Illium recruiting--Liara leaving her console on for giving you information and all.


I sort of feel like nothing is supposed to be post-Suicide Mission, because there's a pretty nice ending there, y'know?

SO MANY SPOILER TAGS. They have assumed control of the thread!

I for one welcome our new spoiler tag overlords...

Oh, it could work anywhere, easy. I just seem to remember Bioware saying that this was supposed to be part of the bridge between 2 and 3, which says to me at least that it's done after the mission.

[Esser-Z]

Hm. Interesting. I do know it helped satiate my need for ME3--while also invigorating it, heh. It's nice to spoilering just in case Have the relationship with Liara confirmed. Also have her character development fully addressed in game--and with Shepard voicing pretty much what the fanbase felt, no less. At least, the way I went through it.

Hope she (and Wrex. And the whole ME2 crew) will be on the team for ME3.

And I got to ask about her relationship with Feron, which I'd been rather wondering about. Nicely done, Bioware.

I really do wonder how they'll handle the import. I trust them to do it well, though, after ME2's glorious sequelage.

Well. Excluding a certain fanboy. Patch that PLEASE, Bioware? While it's in character for him to warp memories to think I pointed a gun at him and stuff, I'd really rather he didn't.

[dromer]

I was also semi-disappointed with the shadow broker himself. I was expecting more of a battle of words before the fight than I got. Still, it was a very interesting fight.


I thought he wasn't the real Shadow Broker... until he died.

[Esser-Z]

I thought he wasn't the real Shadow Broker... until he died.

I wasn't convinced, either. Not until Liara took over.

Heh. The Shadow Broker employed elite Asari mercs. One might say Asari commandos...

[Zevox]

I thought he wasn't the real Shadow Broker... until he died.
He wasn't the original Shadow Broker. He killed the first one (or just the previous one? Who knows....) years ago (Liara said 60, but how she knew that I don't know) and took over. He's been the Broker throughout the events of both games, however.
Zevox

[Esser-Z]

Speaking of Liara knowing things, her deduction of the current Broker's origins and knowledge of his species was awesome.

Also, the title and author slip my mind at the moment, but there's an older scifi story with the antagonists as a race of extremely violent beings called Yogs. "Yahg" a shout out, maybe?

[d12]

Actually she isn't - Only 20% of Shepards in total are FemSheps. (Source (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/111/1117896p1.html) - it may be in the Xbox 360 part of IGN, but the data is clearly all versions).

That was sort of a surprising stat to hear, though the way they stated it sounds kind of weird ("80% of players used a male character" doesn't necessarily imply "80% of all playthroughs are with a male character", but maybe it was just bad phrasing).

Humorously enough, I've never actually played a female Shepard. I just don't really feel the need to use the appearance customization features; I always run using default appearance and never even bother changing the name. :smalltongue: I dunno, it just seems to fit for me.

I also really don't get some of the more extreme "omg, the female voice is so awesomeness" comments I read now and then either. I've seen lets plays and other videos using femShep and she does competently enough to be sure, but it's not some kind of transcendental perfection like some people seem to suggest (course, it is the internet, so getting carried away is normal). They both sound pretty good, and each has lines that I think they delivered better than the other, but overall neither really stands out to me compared to the other. *shrug*

Apparently based on things I've read over time, Hale is sort of a VG voice acting veteran, but I evidently haven't played any of the other games she was involved with, so maybe I don't have the same familiarity others do. In a way the whole thing kind of reminds me of those "you don't like Kaiden because of Carth" comments I would see. No, he's got plenty to not like about him on his own. Had to actually look up that other name.

[Esser-Z]

I actually like both Kaidan AND Carth.

Which didn't stop me from Virmiring Kaidan, maingame. Ashley is a Bruce Campbell reference! Can't kill Bruce!

(My Shepard accidentally leading him on, culminating in his hilarious inability to say the word lesbian, and the awkwardness that would ensue had nothing to do with it. Honest.)

I also used the default female face, though I did rename her. Adrian. SPOT THE REFERENCE!

[chiasaur11]

So, Legion.

Huge nerd, or the hugest nerd.

Discuss.

[dromer]

So, Legion.

Huge nerd, or the hugest nerd.

Discuss.


Best. Character. Backstory. Ever.

[Esser-Z]

...oh man. Is there a Dossier on him? I assume they'll show up after the recruiting, but if they don't I'll need to go through the DLC on a completed game.

[Cristo Meyers]

I also really don't get some of the more extreme "omg, the female voice is so awesomeness" comments I read now and then either. I've seen lets plays and other videos using femShep and she does competently enough to be sure, but it's not some kind of transcendental perfection like some people seem to suggest (course, it is the internet, so getting carried away is normal). They both sound pretty good, and each has lines that I think they delivered better than the other, but overall neither really stands out to me compared to the other. *shrug*

I don't know, to me it seems like the Male Shepard (Mark Meer) ends up delivering the lines flat a lot more often. Though he got better in 2.



Apparently based on things I've read over time, Hale is sort of a VG voice acting veteran, but I evidently haven't played any of the other games she was involved with, so maybe I don't have the same familiarity others do. In a way the whole thing kind of reminds me of those "you don't like Kaiden because of Carth" comments I would see. No, he's got plenty to not like about him on his own. Had to actually look up that other name.

Two of the bigger characters she's voiced are Samus Aran and Bastila Shan. She's got a list of other major parts as long as my arm, TV and video game, dating back to 1988.

Kaidan to me has the same problem as Jacob. He's boringly well-adjusted in a world of larger than life characters. Hell, Garrus goes on to become the damn Batman. Put someone like Kaidan up against that, and of course he comes up lacking.


...oh man. Is there a Dossier on him? I assume they'll show up after the recruiting, but if they don't I'll need to go through the DLC on a completed game.

There is, and it's hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

Hell, most of the dossiers are comedy gold.

[Esser-Z]

Though, Hale's on Samus in the Prime games, where she just grunts. They sadly replaced her for Other M. She's all over the place in more than just games though, I do believe.

And, yeah, Mark Meer feels off in general. He has moments, but overall he just doesn't sound right to my ear. Now, I did play FemShep first, but that shouldn't be the reason.


The dossier's are amazing. Will have to finish up the playthrough to see the ones I don't have yet!

[Zevox]

Two of the bigger characters she's voiced are Samus Aran and Bastila Shan. She's got a list of other major parts as long as my arm, TV and video game, dating back to 1988.
Samus and Bastila eh? The only role I knew she had besides Sheperd was Avatar Kyoshi. Which of course inspired my Kyoshi Sheperd file.

Zevox

[Esser-Z]

She is seriously everywhere. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Hale)

[Cristo Meyers]

Samus and Bastila eh? The only role I knew she had besides Sheperd was Avatar Kyoshi. Which of course inspired my Kyoshi Sheperd file.

Zevox

Here's her history on imdb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0354937/). #edit: Or you could just use the ninja wikipedia link...:smallannoyed::smalltongue:

Been doing TV since 88, video games since 94.

[d12]

I don't know, to me it seems like the Male Shepard (Mark Meer) ends up delivering the lines flat a lot more often. Though he got better in 2.

Hmm, I don't think I ever got that impression myself, but I guess it's mostly in how one hears it.


Two of the bigger characters she's voiced are Samus Aran and Bastila Shan. She's got a list of other major parts as long as my arm, TV and video game, dating back to 1988.

I think I played about 15 minutes of the original Metroid on NES, and I've used Samus a couple times in Smash Bros Melee, and that's about the extent of my Metroid experience. :smalltongue: And I don't really care for Star Wars in general, so just about anything based on it is going to be lost on me anyway. I've apparently seen a couple things on her IMDB page but they were so long ago I don't really remember anyone in particular.


Kaidan to me has the same problem as Jacob. He's boringly well-adjusted in a world of larger than life characters.

Oh my god, that's one of the first things I thought when I started playing ME2: "So Jacob is ME2's Kaiden then?" :smallbiggrin: In fact, he was kind of at the top of my "try to kill this guy" list for being Kaiden redux until I tried Thane's daddy-issues mission (I am not good at that kind of mission, especially when unprepared and it comes up unexpectedly, and the last save was far enough back that I didn't feel like trying again), so he got bumped off the top slot.

[Emperor Ing]

Oh my god, that's one of the first things I thought when I started playing ME2: "So Jacob is ME2's Kaiden then?" :smallbiggrin: In fact, he was kind of at the top of my "try to kill this guy" list for being Kaiden redux until I tried Thane's daddy-issues mission (I am not good at that kind of mission, especially when unprepared and it comes up unexpectedly, and the last save was far enough back that I didn't feel like trying again), so he got bumped off the top slot.

Kaiden Effect II: Daddy issues edition!

Seriously, Carth was better than these guys. I'll take a whiny bitch over a yes-man any day of the week and twice on sunday.

[Avilan the Grey]

Hmm, I don't think I ever got that impression myself, but I guess it's mostly in how one hears it.

I think their strengths are at different things. Most of the time I find Male!Shep flat in normal conversation and good when there is a lot of yelling involved, while Fem!Shep is the opposite; she sounds great in normal conversation and stilted and (slightly) tense when she has to yell and threaten.

Both of them sounds great, but I prefer Fem!Shep in general.


Oh my god, that's one of the first things I thought when I started playing ME2: "So Jacob is ME2's Kaiden then?" :smallbiggrin: In fact, he was kind of at the top of my "try to kill this guy" list for being Kaiden redux until I tried Thane's daddy-issues mission (I am not good at that kind of mission, especially when unprepared and it comes up unexpectedly, and the last save was far enough back that I didn't feel like trying again), so he got bumped off the top slot.

Jacob is not too bad. I always call him bland compared to the other characters, but he does have a personality.
Besides, I have never understood the "oh I am going to try to get this one guy killed". I guess I RPG too much; it just seems insane to deliberately put a teammate at risk.

[Esser-Z]

Yeah, I didn't want to kill anybody, in and out of character. Made sure everyone survived the final mission and all.

Virmire was heartbreaking. Unlike some people, I actually quite like the entire cast. So having to choose like that... Nicely done, Bioware.

[Anteros]

I don't know, to me it seems like the Male Shepard (Mark Meer) ends up delivering the lines flat a lot more often. Though he got better in 2.



I think she did a good job as Bastilla...but I just can't stand her work as Shepard. Every time I've tried to do a female run through the game, her terrible voice acting has stopped me. Meer is much, much better.

[Esser-Z]

And thus the way mileage may vary! Your view is a polar opposite of mine (though I find Meer merely [rimshot] subpar, rather than utterly horrendous.

[mangosta71]

I gotta agree with Cristo's statement that Meer got a lot better in ME2. In the first game, he sounds like too nice a guy for a lot of renegade options.

My new canon character for ME3 import is now my adept. Male, renegade, but in the first game he freed the Rachni (because he figured it would annoy the Council) and saved the Destiny Ascension (because that thing packs more firepower than the entire Alliance fleet). Second game, sided with Morinth, shouted down crew disputes, rewrote the geth (because he was angry about how the Flotilla had treated his friend), and preserved the base (though come to think of it now, blowing it up to piss off TIM would have made more sense for the character :smallsigh:).

[SlyGuyMcFly]

My new canon character for ME3 import is now my adept. Male, renegade, but in the first game he freed the Rachni (because he figured it would annoy the Council) and saved the Destiny Ascension (because that thing packs more firepower than the entire Alliance fleet).

Sounds a lot like my renegade femshep. Renegade all the way, but saved the Rachni Queen because she had already killed off another sentient species that week and it was getting old. Saved the council because she wanted to rub it their faces.

I'll have to see about getting ME2 one of these days...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So has LotSB been fixed for the PC yet? I may be getting it this afternoon.

[Ailurus]

So has LotSB been fixed for the PC yet? I may be getting it this afternoon.

It has. Played through it last night on PC.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Excellent! It'll give me something to do while I wait for Witch Hunt to be fixed. :smallbiggrin:

[Blayze]

From now on, all future Mass Effect topics must have the "this is my favourite thread on the Citadel" line, to keep with what inevitably happens in-game.

[mangosta71]

Ah, yes. The endorsements. Yet another reason renegade is superior to paragon.

[VanBuren]

Ah, yes. The endorsements. Yet another reason renegade is superior to paragon.

What? I got all the endorsements using Charm.

[mangosta71]

What? I got all the endorsements using Charm.
Exactly. _

[Esser-Z]

So has LotSB been fixed for the PC yet? I may be getting it this afternoon.

It was fixed that night, actually. Set mine downloading and played it in the morning. :)

I don't quite follow what mangosta's saying, there, but some of the renegade discount getting things are hilarious. "THIS STORE DISCRIMINATES AGAINST POOR PEOPLE!"

[Dhavaer]

I liked the star charts one. "Why don't they just give you a slide rule and tell you to eyeball it?"

[Cristo Meyers]

I think their strengths are at different things. Most of the time I find Male!Shep flat in normal conversation and good when there is a lot of yelling involved, while Fem!Shep is the opposite; she sounds great in normal conversation and stilted and (slightly) tense when she has to yell and threaten.

Both of them sounds great, but I prefer Fem!Shep in general.


I dunno. Hale seemed to do better in the normal dialogue as well, especially the Shadow Broker dialogue.

"Why don't the guards just attack us all at once?"

"Liara, don't give the mercs ideas..."


Exactly.

No joke. I ended up buying everything in all the stores after a while just to avoid having to hear that damn endorsement again...

[Esser-Z]

Man, the Shadow Broker mission banter with Liara is so excellent. So, so excellent. Shame there almost certainly won't be more (excluding theoretical personal sidequest) in ME3, assuming she's a squad member again.

[Emperor Ing]

It's pretty much guaranteed she'll be a squad member in ME3. Judging by her reception in the latest DLC packet, i'm pretty damn sure she'll be a much more likeable character than she was in ME1.

[VanBuren]

Exactly. _

Right.

So Renegade is awful. Glad we agree. :smallwink:

[Esser-Z]

It's pretty much guaranteed she'll be a squad member in ME3. Judging by her reception in the latest DLC packet, i'm pretty damn sure she'll be a much more likeable character than she was in ME1.

Yeah, along with Kaiden/Ashely, whichever didn't die. Bioware did say they kept the LI's non-squad in ME2 to make sure they survived, I recall.

I say 'if' only because LotSB sets her up for more of a support role... but Feron can manage the base, so!

[mangosta71]

I don't quite follow what mangosta's saying, there, but some of the renegade discount getting things are hilarious. "THIS STORE DISCRIMINATES AGAINST POOR PEOPLE!"

That's my point. The renegade options are SO much better than the bloody stupid endorsement.

[Emperor Ing]

I'm Commander Shepard and Renegade options are my favorite method of getting discounts on the Citadel.

Had to be done. =\

[Zevox]

It's pretty much guaranteed she'll be a squad member in ME3.
It is :smallconfused: ? I kind of thought that the development at the end of Lair of the Shadowbroker made that less likely, what with her now having something else to do that looks like it'll occupy her constantly. I'd certainly bet on her helping you, but squad member now seems more uncertain to me, not more certain.


Judging by her reception in the latest DLC packet, i'm pretty damn sure she'll be a much more likeable character than she was in ME1.
I'd say she's already a more interesting and likable character in the DLC than she was in ME1.

Zevox

[Esser-Z]

I actually liked her a lot in ME1. Why do I always like things? But I will agree, the DLC made her even better. Maker, the banter with Shepard. Makes me extra glad I went with her over Kaidan.


(How they got to acting like an old married couple after, like, a couple months together... well, saving the galaxy forms a pretty strong bond.)

[Derthric]

I just finished LotSB, and It was fun, I enjoyed it more than Overlord or any of the free DLC save for Zaeed. The Boss fights were different and a lot of fun. Though at time I wish there had been some aspects which were less combat focused aside from Liara's apartment.

My biggest complaint is that if you rekindle the relationship with Liara it doesn't trigger the romance achievement, once again punishing fidelity. But that only really bothers me since I am an achievement *****.

Anyone else laugh joyously at the little blue babies line?

[Zorg]

On the subject of FemShep vs MrShep, I'm in the camp that MrShep is better for renegades and FemShep for Paragons. MrShep also improved greatly in ME2 in my eyes (or ears).



I actually liked her a lot in ME1. Why do I always like things? But I will agree, the DLC made her even better. Maker, the banter with Shepard. Makes me extra glad I went with her over Kaidan.

(How they got to acting like an old married couple after, like, a couple months together... well, saving the galaxy forms a pretty strong bond.)

Esser-Z, are you me from an alternate dimension or something? Because you seem to be stealing my thoughts here :smalltongue:

While I found Kaiden's ship-board dialogue rather staid, I loved his mission-banter (Noveria: "Mum was right - I should have brought a sweater!"). But to me it seemed to fit his personality, so I didn't mind it.
On my first playthrough Ashley really got on my nerves, but second time around it was much harder sacrificing her (still had to save Kaiden - better for the team and I had to set Saren up the bomb).

Jacob I don't mind, but he never really says anything. He talks, but doesn't add much each time he does to give a picture about himself the way the others do. And it bugs me the way FemShep is all "actually, I'm more interested in 'talking' *nudge nudge* :smallwink:" with him, even when not in a romance path at all.



Anyone else laugh joyously at the little blue babies line?

I did :smallbiggrin:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I downloaded LotSB last night and have been playing it this afternoon. I'm in the ship itself now and MAN! The Illium portion of the DLC is awesome! Heart-pumping and heart-warming. I can't wait to get to the Broker himself and wipe that smug smile off his toothy maw!

[Esser-Z]

My biggest complaint is that if you rekindle the relationship with Liara it doesn't trigger the romance achievement, once again punishing fidelity. But that only really bothers me since I am an achievement *****.

Just play through the game another time, which you need to do to get them all anyway. :smalltongue:




Anyone else laugh joyously at the little blue babies line?

Me! Me!


I demand more awesome car chase action in ME3. I was a bit worried starting it because segments like that sometimes annoy me, but it delivered.

[Blayze]

I prefer Meer--he sounds more... well, *real*.

[Esser-Z]

More real? Can you elaborate on that, because I don't really understand what you mean, there.

On second thought, let's just drop that line of discussion. It's a personal opinion based thing that'll just go around in circles forever. :smalltongue:


So, instead. It seems like ME3's going to have a pretty big party (if you do things right). I don't see them dropping any ME2 members except maybe Zaeed and/or Kasumi. The surviving human from ME1 will almost certainly be back, I expect Liara too she COULD stay on the station, but she could also leave Feron to run things and go off with Shepard.... Wrex wouldn't be unsurprising, though he could go either way.

And that's before any additional party members, which there will surely be...

[Tome]

Just finished LotSB myself. Legion's dossier is hilarious, possibly my favourite part of the whole thing.

I ran into clipping issue in a couple of places myself, managing to get myself wedged into places I shouldn't and having to start over from my last save. The sound also cut out the first time I did the Illium car chase. So it's a bit buggy.

I'll second the opinion that some other folks have voiced regarding more diversity in Shep's actions in cutscenes. If the assassin and Liara can float to the ground with Biotics, my Sentinel Shep should be able to float down/take the impact using her abilities.

One thing I noticed was that it seem like Bioware finally figured out how to make a usable Biotic team mate with Liara. Compared to Jack and Samara, the other two straight Biotics, she's much, much more useful, particularly on Insanity. Pity you can't keep her around.

[Esser-Z]

I'll second the opinion that some other folks have voiced regarding more diversity in Shep's actions in cutscenes. If the assassin and Liara can float to the ground with Biotics, my Sentinel Shep should be able to float down/take the impact using her abilities.


While this definitely would be nice thing... I can understand why it's not there. It's a whole lot more work. There's more variants of cutscenes to do, and that particular one would modify some of the dialogue, too. It's like how you ALWAYS are wielding the pistol (Except, uh, towards the end, where it's an assault rifle. ME1 did this a bit more often. It's a bit weird)--every class gets one, so it's one less tag to worry about.

Man. Between ME1 and ME2, ME3's going to have SO MANY variable things.

[Dienekes]

So, instead. It seems like ME3's going to have a pretty big party (if you do things right). I don't see them dropping any ME2 members except maybe Zaeed and/or Kasumi. The surviving human from ME1 will almost certainly be back, I expect Liara too

I think the official word on ME3 party members was that they don't want to punish players who didn't play as well and had some squadmates die. So it seems unlikely that all the ME2 squad will come back for an encore.

Which is sad really, and ME game without Garrus as a party member just seems... wrong.
I suppose I should say Tali too, but man, Garrus rocks.

[Esser-Z]

I think the official word on ME3 party members was that they don't want to punish players who didn't play as well and had some squadmates die. So it seems unlikely that all the ME2 squad will come back for an encore.

Which is sad really, and ME game without Garrus as a party member just seems... wrong.
I suppose I should say Tali too, but man, Garrus rocks.

That statement sounds to me like 'we'll make sure there are enough new members to cover you'. It wouldn't surprise me if ME2 members don't get personal quests in ME3, same with Liara.

I don't think they'd cut out any of the LI options, though, based on other statements. Nor Garrus/Tali, what with the massive fanbase for them. Grunt, Mordin, Zaeed, Samara, and Kasumi seem the most reasonable candidates for leaving out. Especially if Wrex and Liara come back.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That statement sounds to me like 'we'll make sure there are enough new members to cover you'. It wouldn't surprise me if ME2 members don't get personal quests in ME3, same with Liara.

I don't think they'd cut out any of the LI options, though, based on other statements. Nor Garrus/Tali, what with the massive fanbase for them. Grunt, Mordin, Zaeed, Samara, and Kasumi seem the most reasonable candidates for leaving out. Especially if Wrex and Liara come back.

Thane probably won't be around as well, given the short time he has left.

[Esser-Z]

Depends on how soon after ME2 ME3 is, with regards to Thane.

[Toastkart]

Same with Mordin, really. He's not getting any younger after all. Which really sucks as I think he was the best, most fully developed of the new characters.



I think the official word on ME3 party members was that they don't want to punish players who didn't play as well and had some squadmates die. So it seems unlikely that all the ME2 squad will come back for an encore.



That statement sounds to me like 'we'll make sure there are enough new members to cover you'. It wouldn't surprise me if ME2 members don't get personal quests in ME3, same with Liara.
While I don't think it very likely, Bioware could be counting on everyone having at least one save where all squadmates survive and only allowing those saves to be imported.

Also, if anyone's coming back, Garrus and Tali will. Also, since they made a big point of Shepard coming back from the dead, it could be the case that any dead squadmates are brought back the same way, although I don't think this is very likely either. Just throwing out some ideas.


One thing I noticed was that it seem like Bioware finally figured out how to make a usable Biotic team mate with Liara. Compared to Jack and Samara, the other two straight Biotics, she's much, much more useful, particularly on Insanity. Pity you can't keep her around.
I noticed that she seemed to be a bit more intelligent about her power usage as well. However, also keep in mind that Jack and Samara's powers (except for reave, I really haven't used it) can only be used on unshielded, unarmored targets. All of Liara's abilities can be used on anyone, except warp which she won't use on shielded targets.

[Cristo Meyers]

Same with Mordin, really. He's not getting any younger after all. Which really sucks as I think he was the best, most fully developed of the new characters.

Considering he's got to be the galaxy's oldest living Salarian. He's what, 50?





While I don't think it very likely, Bioware could be counting on everyone having at least one save where all squadmates survive and only allowing those saves to be imported.

Also, if anyone's coming back, Garrus and Tali will. Also, since they made a big point of Shepard coming back from the dead, it could be the case that any dead squadmates are brought back the same way, although I don't think this is very likely either. Just throwing out some ideas.

To me it seemed like they were setting up certain characters to be in positions to help Shepard with the various races/factions in the galaxy. ME3 is probably going to revolve around gathering allies to fight the Reapers, so having Tali in the Migrant Fleet, Legion with the Geth, Ashley/Kaidan with the Alliance...

Though the cynic in me is only really counting on the inevitable cyclone of whining when it's revealed that fan subset favorite X isn't coming back...

[Gralamin]

Considering he's got to be the galaxy's oldest living Salarian. He's what, 50?


He's actually not 50, despite what is said in game / on the website. See: Bioware Official statement (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/844703#845891)

[Callos_DeTerran]

If I hope any one comes back, I hope that it's Kasumi, Zaeed, Tali, and Garrus...As squad-mates that is, I'm more then happy to have any/all characters come back as quest givers like Wrex did.........except for Jacob.

[Emperor Ing]

Zaeed's pretty bland, I don't see him doing more than having an NPC cameo in ME3.

Tali has a high chance of being in ME3, as does Garrus.

Kasumi, 50/50 chance.

Poor Jacob. Ridiculously bland, minimal individual thought, and one of the worst squadmates in the game. I think he'll be back, but they'd absolutely better revamp him.

[Cristo Meyers]

If I hope any one comes back, I hope that it's Kasumi, Zaeed, Tali, and Garrus...As squad-mates that is, I'm more then happy to have any/all characters come back as quest givers like Wrex did.........except for Jacob.

That's pretty much the way I see this working out. We're probably going to see more characters as NPC/quest givers. Garrus and Miranda are really the only two characters I'm partial to, myself.

Heh, poor Jacob didn't make it through the last playthrough. Too bad, too, if he'd lived it would've been Morinth that bit it and my secondary objective would've been completed...the one time I send Zaeed to be the only one making out alive and he gets himself killed...

[Dienekes]

Poor Jacob. Ridiculously bland, minimal individual thought, and one of the worst squadmates in the game. I think he'll be back, but they'd absolutely better revamp him.

To be fair, I was not a fan of Liara in ME1. Her dialogue didn't particularly entertain me, her voice acting I always felt was kind of flat, and her personality just seemed kinda blandy-bookworm girl.

However in ME2 I actually became interested in her backstory and vendetta and grew incredibly interested in the new DLC (which I have yet to get and am avoiding spoilers like the plague for). Personally, I think Bioware can by adding a good plot and character growth between games make Jacob interesting as well, and am hopeful.

However, I just don't see Bioware mapping out all the possible dialogue option necessary to make an interesting squadmate for everyone in ME2 when all of them can die and just be a waste of space in the game. 1 or 2 scenes is far more reasonable, and in my opinion more likely.

[Esser-Z]

However, I just don't see Bioware mapping out all the possible dialogue option necessary to make an interesting squadmate for everyone in ME2 when all of them can die and just be a waste of space in the game. 1 or 2 scenes is far more reasonable, and in my opinion more likely.

I'm thinking this myself. The whole of the ME2 squad-- and Liara, now-- have had their personal quests already done. I'd expect them not to have too much additional stuff, because, y'know. Shepard knows them already and all. Anyone new, on the other hand...

I do expect Tali and Legion to be pretty important, though, what with the still upcoming resolution of the Geth/Quarian plotline. Also because Legion is just so lategame. Wrex'll probably be big even if he stays non-squad. Miranda/Jacob might be of some import, Miranda moreso, thanks to the whole Cerberus thing.

No real way to predict, heh. A couple years ago, I don't think anyone would have expected to only have Garrus and Tali on the squad, with Wrex and Liara as quest givers and Kaidashley as but a cameo. And, y'know, the whole Normandy blowing up thing.

Because some people haven't finished LotSB, tagging this:
Hm... So, Thane might not be around for ME3, what with the whole dying thing. Now, didn't we just meet a Drell who happens to have skills very useful for Shepard? I wouldn't be surprised if Feron joins the team.

That or, maybe, serves as the Broker while Liara hits the Normandy. Blue Wizard Needs Shep Badly.


And even without full stuff for all potential squadmembers, there're a whole lot of decisions that'll matter for ME3. Wrex being dead or not (like anyone actually kills him in their canon game), which council, Racni, giving the finger to TIM... Wurblegurble need ME3.

Though I do still have this copy of Retribution to read. I should get on that.

[Edge]

Well, I finished LoTSB last night...
Awesome in a can. My only disappointment is that you couldn't talk to squad members about stuff in the dossiers. When I learnt about Garrus' mother, I felt sorry for the guy. Then, when I learnt that he and Mordin had been sending Collector tissue to some medical company, I got slightly suspicious.

Of course, that would require getting the voice actors back in...

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm thinking this myself. The whole of the ME2 squad-- and Liara, now-- have had their personal quests already done. I'd expect them not to have too much additional stuff, because, y'know. Shepard knows them already and all. Anyone new, on the other hand...

I don't agree.

First reason is obvious: There is absolutely nothing that says that just because you spent two games collecting squads you will have to do this in game three. Actually I think the opposite is more likely; you now HAVE your squad, and the third game is all about enlisting actually allies (as in armies, not squad members).

Second reason: Bioware has stated that they are going nuts with choices and consequences in the third game because it is the final game, period. This means that they can and will have wildly different outcomes etc. and not care about tying it up neatly for another game.

[Zorg]

I hope they don't add any new squadmates personally - there's so many characters already who need to be included / factor into major plotlines that they shouldn't be adding more.

Remember, in just my playthrough I've got these characters I want to see more of/need to finish their stories:

Liara
Kaiden
Tali
Wrex
Grunt
Garrus
Joker
Dr Chakwas
Kelly
EDI
Thane (he's a romance option - he'll be alive and kicking, if not for long)
Mouse
Kolyat
Kasumi
Samara
Miranda
Jacob (does he get a personality?)
Mordin
Legion
Zaeed (does he retire?)
Jack
Sgt Gardner
Anderson & Udina
Kal'Reeger
Veetor
Rachni
Aethyta (Illium bartender)
Shiala & Zhu's Hope
The Consort
Emily Wong
Khalisha Al Jilani (I'll probably go with decking her the third time around)
Admiral Hackett
Geth vs Geth vs Quarians
Rana Thanoptis
Aria
The Patriarch
Ish
Kenn
Kirahee
The 10th Streed Reds
Fist
Bailey
Harkin
Helena Blake
Feron
Dark Energy..?
Gianna Parasini
Charr and Ereba
and last, but not least, Conrad Verner!

This isn't even including the stuff that was only briefly mentioned in ME2 from 1, like Samesh's wife, Dr Michel etc. Obviously some of these will just be cameos or emails like in ME2, but there are many more out there that I don't have available.

And that's not even mentioning the whole Reapers-extinguishing-all-life thing that's going on!

[Esser-Z]

I'd be absolutely cool with just using the current cast, with a little bit of hesitation.


You see, I REALLY want to recruit and Elcor. Hanar, too. Maybe even Volus!

[Avilan the Grey]

I'd be absolutely cool with just using the current cast, with a little bit of hesitation.


You see, I REALLY want to recruit and Elcor. Hanar, too. Maybe even Volus!

Heh. With all the jokes in the games on the Volus' expense it would be great with a real badass Volus :smallbiggrin:

[Blayze]

I want the Biotic God Volus in my party.

[Zorg]

I want the Biotic God Volus in my party.


I love the smell of greatness in the morning, it smells like... victory. Some day this war will be over...


Also, because I can, the condensed version of my playthrough of the end of LotSB - in pictures!

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ME2LotSB01.jpg

Yes, I am pissed at you for leaving me unconscious on the ground. How could you tell?


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ME2LotSB02.jpg

Ready to kick some ass - where's that Feron guy? I don't like how my girl talks about him...


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ME2LotSB03.jpg

Great, now there's a giant blowfly trying to kill me - nothing but interruptions around here.


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ME2LotSB04.jpg

EMOTIONS


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ME2LotSB05.jpg

Thus we rekindled our... Hey. Liara. My face is up here.


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/ME2LotSB06.jpg

And everybody was happy...


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/Mass_Effect__CHAFING_by_ghostfire.png
(had to use it!)

[Comet]

Lair of the Shadow Broker- best mission of Mass Effect 2? I think it could very well be. Especially great for one of my saves, where I played through ME1 with Tali, Liara and Femshep, kicking ass throughout the galaxy Charlie's Angels style.
Lair of the Shadow Broker was like looking back to a simpler, happier time, without all that dark Collector stuff in the way. Just adventure and excitement and hilarious banter.

[Esser-Z]

Thus we rekindled our... Hey. Liara. My face is up here.

Says the woman who ends conversations with groping!

[Yana]

I don't suppose anyone else noticedThat Liara's "father" is the barkeeper on Ilium? Probably has been mentioned already but it's still awesome and hopefully sets the stage for a tearful meeting in ME3.

Also, having Liara comment about my Maleshep's romance with Tali was just so... cute. Just hearing "Miss vas Normandy" brought a smile to my face.

AddendumDoes this mean that Liara is now Wrex's granddaughter? :D

[Esser-Z]

Yeah, I picked up on that. Given how AWESOME that bartender is, I'm totally cool with it. I'd love to get them to meet.

Also, to be to introduce Liara to Shepard's mom, as a Spacer.

[VanBuren]

I don't suppose anyone else noticedThat Liara's "father" is the barkeeper on Ilium? Probably has been mentioned already but it's still awesome and hopefully sets the stage for a tearful meeting in ME3.

Also, having Liara comment about my Maleshep's romance with Tali was just so... cute. Just hearing "Miss vas Normandy" brought a smile to my face.

Unless something new was revealed in the DLC, that's still just speculation. We meet a few pureblood asari in the game, so just because the bartender had a pureblood kid, doesn't mean it was Liara.

Of course, I'm one of those guys that things that Aria was the asari that Wrex talked about, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[Esser-Z]

VanBuren:
One of the post-mission videos shows her looking at a picture that is very similar to a certain doctor.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And even without full stuff for all potential squadmembers, there're a whole lot of decisions that'll matter for ME3. Wrex being dead or not (like anyone actually kills him in their canon game), which council, Racni, giving the finger to TIM... Wurblegurble need ME3.

Though I do still have this copy of Retribution to read. I should get on that.

Actually I've killed Wrex in my game of Fem!Shepard expressly for the purpose of...well it fit that Shepard's personality and I wanted to see how it affected the rest of the series. Then again I'm also apparently one of the few who picked (or will) Morinth over Samara for more then just 'lulRenegade' or game-play reasons, so there you have.

And Zaeed isn't bland, I love his stories. xD And hell...he's the only character that really LACKED character development in Mass Effect 2, only tying with Legion because...Legion wasn't in it much, but he got lots of it quickly.

[chiasaur11]

Then again I'm also apparently one of the few who picked (or will) Morinth over Samara for more then just 'lulRenegade' or game-play reasons, so there you have.


To be fair those are two of the four reasons that exist for that decision.

The others?

"Will there be consequences in game 3/DLC?" (Yes. Kasumi notices. )

Or being TOO DUMB TO LIVE.

[Callos_DeTerran]

To be fair those are two of the four reasons that exist for that decision.

The others?

"Will there be consequences in game 3/DLC?" (Yes. Kasumi notices. )

Or being TOO DUMB TO LIVE.

Did I once say I'd try making out with Morinth? :smalltongue: No, only ever said I can sympathize with Morinth's situation and felt leaving Samara with the knowledge she's killed one of her children for another 300 years was more cruel then letting Morinth live and trying to redeem her (after a fashion).

[Avilan the Grey]

Did I once say I'd try making out with Morinth? :smalltongue: No, only ever said I can sympathize with Morinth's situation and felt leaving Samara with the knowledge she's killed one of her children for another 300 years was more cruel then letting Morinth live and trying to redeem her (after a fashion).

Well I can feel a sting of sympathy for her, but she is still too dangerous to be kept alive (even all my 100% renegade Sheps think that way since they are not Stupid Evil or Chaotic Stupid) and your second reason just doesn't make sense:

Killing a woman that is desperately trying to do the right thing, and is determined to succeed, by not only killing her, but making sure she dies with the knowledge that she ultimately failed and all was for nothing is "saving" her???????????????????????????????????????????

(yes it deserves that many question marks)

[Giggling Ghast]

Did I once say I'd try making out with Morinth? :smalltongue: No, only ever said I can sympathize with Morinth's situation and felt leaving Samara with the knowledge she's killed one of her children for another 300 years was more cruel then letting Morinth live and trying to redeem her (after a fashion).

....

I think I'm actually dumber for having read your post.

Sympathize? Regardless of the cruddy circumstances she was dealt, the woman is a monster that will continue killing her way across the galaxy if not stopped. And sparing Samara the pain of killing her daughter? What kind of insane logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic) is that?

[Avilan the Grey]

What kind of insane logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic) is that?

You know, I was struggling to explain my feelings and then there is a TV Trope that does it perfectly!!! I had never seen that trope page before. :smallsmile:

[Giggling Ghast]

You know, I was struggling to explain my feelings and then there is a TV Trope that does it perfectly!!! I had never seen that trope page before. :smallsmile:

Glad to help.

Ignoring that Samara has accepted that Morinth must die and is more than strong enough to cope with her grief, why do you care about Samara's pain and ignore the feelings of Morinth's victims? Even if you believe she's not entirely in control of her actions, she's at the very least compelled to kill people. What about the relatives and friends of Morinth's victims? Why don't they get any consideration? Because you don't know them? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality)

[Zorg]

Says the woman who ends conversations with groping!

Haha, very true - but she started it!



I don't suppose anyone else noticedThat Liara's "father" is the barkeeper on Ilium? Probably has been mentioned already but it's still awesome and hopefully sets the stage for a tearful meeting in ME3.

Also, having Liara comment about my Maleshep's romance with Tali was just so... cute. Just hearing "Miss vas Normandy" brought a smile to my face.

Noticed that, and the only dissapointment of the DLC is you can't act on all this info right away!

Re Tali: Dammit, now I'm really going to have to play through a fifth time... Wonder if it works for Garrus too?



AddendumDoes this mean that Liara is now Wrex's granddaughter? :D

Not possible, as the bartender's parents both died, and Wrex would be incredibly old (and I think he'd mention being in the Rachni Wars).

[mangosta71]

My "canon" maleShep sided with Morinth because he thought that she would be more useful against the Collectors than Samara. And given that it was supposed to be a suicide mission, he didn't expect anyone on his crew to survive so they were both dead anyway.

Btw, Kelly notices as much as Kasumi does.

[Cristo Meyers]

The only bit of logic I can really swallow concerning taking Morinth over Samara is the knowledge that there is simply no way that Samara is the only Asari operative on the hunt for Morinth, so even if Samara dies and Morinth survives the suicide mission there would still be plenty of other hunters out for her blood. Take her, use her, and then make sure the other operatives find her.

...hell, and even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Of course, if Samara really is the only operative looking for this incredibly dangerous example of an incredibly highly monitored type of Asari...well then the Asari just moved dangerously close into Too Dumb To Live territory.

[Yoren]

But what makes Morinth more useful/powerful than Samara? They're roughly equal in their biotic strength (morinth is probably a little stronger) but Samara has a ton more experience and is better trained.

[Giggling Ghast]

My "canon" maleShep sided with Morinth because he thought that she would be more useful against the Collectors than Samara. And given that it was supposed to be a suicide mission, he didn't expect anyone on his crew to survive so they were both dead anyway.

See, that's a justification I can understand. I don't agree with it, but at least I can see the cold logic of it. This nonsense about sympathizing with the centuries-old serial killer? Utter hogwash.


But what makes Morinth more useful/powerful than Samara? They're roughly equal in their biotic strength (morinth is probably a little stronger) but Samara has a ton more experience and is better trained.

If you're taking the long view, Morinth will eventually surpass Samara, as she still has centuries to live and gradually grows stronger with each kill.

Morinth is also more morally flexible. If you were the type of Shepard to make morally questionable decisions, it might be better to have Morinth at your back.

[Yoren]

If you're taking the long view, Morinth will eventually surpass Samara, as she still has centuries to live and gradually grows stronger with each kill.

Very true. However the comparison was made at their current power since both mangosta and cristo didn't expect Morinth to survive the last mission (or at least survive for very long afterwards).

Plus letting morinth grow in power for centuries sounds like a really bad idea (maybe that's just me)


Morinth is also more morally flexible. If you were the type of Shepard to make morally questionable decisions, it might be better to have Morinth at your back.
Samara will do anything you ask, you'll just have to fight her later if she doesn't agree with your actions. I'd rather know I'm going to be in a fight than worry that a biotic serial killer is gonna melt my brain when I'm not looking.

[Name_Here]

I don't agree.

First reason is obvious: There is absolutely nothing that says that just because you spent two games collecting squads you will have to do this in game three. Actually I think the opposite is more likely; you now HAVE your squad, and the third game is all about enlisting actually allies (as in armies, not squad members).

Second reason: Bioware has stated that they are going nuts with choices and consequences in the third game because it is the final game, period. This means that they can and will have wildly different outcomes etc. and not care about tying it up neatly for another game.

If I have to recruit a full third squad I would be less than pleased. I got my team out of the collector base alive and hours fixing their assortment of family problems, emotional baggage, right of passage and geth rebellions. If I don't get them in the next game it will be bull.

[Emperor Ing]

If I have to recruit a full third squad I would be less than pleased. I got my team out of the collector base alive and hours fixing their assortment of family problems, emotional baggage, right of passage and geth rebellions. If I don't get them in the next game it will be bull.

Pretty much this. I'd prefer to go back to ME1's style of recruitment where squad members were picked up while doing the main mission.

And yes, I do want to recruit entire armies and armadas of ships to stand against the collectors, not just one stupid guy that just happens to be good at pointing their gun in the general direction of enemies (except Garrus, because he's a one-man-army. :smallbiggrin: )

[Zevox]

But what makes Morinth more useful/powerful than Samara?
From a gameplay POV, mind control powers.

Zevox

[Emperor Ing]

From a gameplay POV, mind control powers.

Zevox

Another improvement i'd make for ME3, allow characters to be able to actually use their unique powers.

[Dienekes]

From a gameplay POV, mind control powers.

Zevox

Bah, Reave is more useful in any case. In my opinion anyway.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Sympathize? Regardless of the cruddy circumstances she was dealt, the woman is a monster that will continue killing her way across the galaxy if not stopped. And sparing Samara the pain of killing her daughter? What kind of insane logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic) is that?

So's Shepard, the difference is that Morinth kills the wrong people (artists, Nem, those people who won't be missed widely, etc) instead of the right people (those bent on destroying all sentient life, drug cartels, mercenary gangs, etc). More importantly Jack is an unstable monster that will continue to kill her way across the galaxy (unless I missed some significant character development when you romance her), but I don't see anyone talking about not recruiting her. Heck, Jack kills anyone she thinks is trying to screw her or who might be fun because it gives her warm fuzzy feelings inside.

How is that insane troll logic? :smallconfused: The asari have demonstrated maternal instincts and displayed enough emotional similarity to humans to display guilt. Would you want to live with the knowledge that you killed one of your children? And don't spout 'that's irrational' or 'she's a killer' either, because neither of those apply in this case. Emotions aren't rationale and push come to shove Morinth is STILL Samara's daughter, except for the fact Morinth is killing no more people then any other Asari in a merc-gang (like Eclipse) (Or is a number given to how many Morinth has killed?) and she actually has an excuse for killing those people, admittedly a below average one, unlike those asari who only have 'for the credits'.


Ignoring that Samara has accepted that Morinth must die and is more than strong enough to cope with her grief, why do you care about Samara's pain and ignore the feelings of Morinth's victims? Even if you believe she's not entirely in control of her actions, she's at the very least compelled to kill people. What about the relatives and friends of Morinth's victims? Why don't they get any consideration? Because you don't know them? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality)

Are you sure about that? The conversation you have with Samara after that fight, both on the ship and in the apartment, imply to me that Samara may not be strong enough especially considering...

She can never see her other daughter's again either

...and that they resent her for taking up the Justicar's oaths. As for why no consideration is given to Morinth's victims, again, the same logic can apply to Shepard or Jack with equal ease. You literally murder your way across the galaxy, and it would be impossible to care about EVERY merc, criminal, or actually-sentient-non-Chaotic-Evil-race-alien with the same degree that you do your squad-mates. So yes it's protagonist centered viewpoint by necessity because otherwise you need to start thinking about the family and friends of the victims of your other party members.More to the point, they do get consideration, if you don't remember, you get a message from Nem's mother thanking you for doing away with the monster who killed Nem even if you do pick Morinth. It's false comfort considering the real killer is in your Port viewing bay, but comfort is comfort. Morinth is/will be more powerful in the long run (assuming she survives) and is still salvageable just like any other addict is (which is the prime reason my one Fem!Shep saved her, it was her hobby to fix people and Morinth is in desperate need of fixing like Jack is) and if it turns out she can't be turned? ...Well look at that, there's this nice and deadly suicide mission where Morinth can finally make her evil little life amount for something by dying in the name of trying to preserve all life in the galaxy.

And here's the big one, again, you work with worse people! Game-play necessity or not, Shepard is willing to work with Cerberus who has done things on an order of magnitudes worse then Morinth could ever do but you seem to think that's at least acceptable. How's the people behind the Praggia facility, Project Overlord, or hell...projects that aren't even given NAMES in Mass Effect 1 somehow more tolerable then Morinth? :smallconfused: That's dubious logic there. Sure, it fits some Shepards who are willing to give anyone/thing a second chance (including Cerberus) but then the question comes back to 'why doesn't Morinth get a second chance?'


The only bit of logic I can really swallow concerning taking Morinth over Samara is the knowledge that there is simply no way that Samara is the only Asari operative on the hunt for Morinth, so even if Samara dies and Morinth survives the suicide mission there would still be plenty of other hunters out for her blood. Take her, use her, and then make sure the other operatives find her.

...hell, and even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Of course, if Samara really is the only operative looking for this incredibly dangerous example of an incredibly highly monitored type of Asari...well then the Asari just moved dangerously close into Too Dumb To Live territory.

Samara isn't the only one. When you talk to Aria, Samara acts surprised that Aria didn't inform the justicars, the asari, or anyone that there is a Yrdat-Akshi in the area which would indicate the asari norm is to notify the authorities right away so it can be handled.


But what makes Morinth more useful/powerful than Samara? They're roughly equal in their biotic strength (morinth is probably a little stronger) but Samara has a ton more experience and is better trained.

Yet that experience and training doesn't save Samara when they fight since it comes down to Shepard. It's the perfect example of what Xykon said/did about the wizard guarding the first gate. Morinth seems to be on the tipping point where her power would be great enough that no matter how much experience or training Samara had, it wouldn't matte which is why they are relatively equal as party members in value (cause Reave and Dominate are both good abilities).


Samara will do anything you ask, you'll just have to fight her later if she doesn't agree with your actions. I'd rather know I'm going to be in a fight than worry that a biotic serial killer is gonna melt my brain when I'm not looking.

The only way the biotic serial killer is going to melt Shepard's brain is if he/she is stupid enough to ignore all the warning sides and try to sex up Morinth anyway. If that's the case you deserve what's coming to you. I'd (or certain Shepards) prefer to have the morally flexible serial killer (because hey, how's that different from most of your crew?) who's at least a bit thankful for saving her life instead of the justicar who will be compelled to try and kill you once the mission is over if you happen to be too bad of a person.

[Esser-Z]

So's Shepard, the difference is that Morinth kills the wrong people
Actually, the difference is that Morinth does it for fun and for personal advancement, whereas it's Shepard's job.

If you can't see the difference between a serial killer and a soldier...

[Callos_DeTerran]

Actually, the difference is that Morinth does it for fun and for personal advancement, whereas it's Shepard's job.

If you can't see the difference between a serial killer and a soldier...

Earth-born background for Shepard would speak for the fact Shepard's killed people for (At least) personal advancement as well, though they don't go into how bad that gang is if I remember correctly. Morinth is an addict, she does it because it feels good and she can't stop. Does it make her killings any better? No, killing is killing. Same goes for Shepard, just because it's their job doesn't magically justify the killing by itself. Shepard kills for cause, a purpose, and for survival and that's the difference between Morinth and Shepard. Guess what? You recruit her and she gets all three.

[Zevox]

So's Shepard, the difference is that Morinth kills the wrong people (artists, Nem, those people who won't be missed widely, etc) instead of the right people (those bent on destroying all sentient life, drug cartels, mercenary gangs, etc).
No, the difference is that Sheperd is a soldier/spectre trying to defend the galaxy from threats that would destroy it and maintain the peace while she's at it, while Morinth is a serial killer who kills anyone who interests her because she feels like it. There is no comparison to be made there.


More importantly Jack is an unstable monster that will continue to kill her way across the galaxy (unless I missed some significant character development when you romance her), but I don't see anyone talking about not recruiting her. Heck, Jack kills anyone she thinks is trying to screw her or who might be fun because it gives her warm fuzzy feelings inside.
Jack can be returned to prison after the struggle is over if need be, or you might stabilize her along the way. Samara cannot be brought back from the grave.


How is that insane troll logic? :smallconfused: The asari have demonstrated maternal instincts and displayed enough emotional similarity to humans to display guilt. Would you want to live with the knowledge that you killed one of your children?
The problem is there is no evidence whatsoever in the game that she would have such a problem living with that knowledge. You're simply making that up - it's a total assumption which there is no rational reason for anyone to believe.


And here's the big one, again, you work with worse people! Game-play necessity or not, Shepard is willing to work with Cerberus who has done things on an order of magnitudes worse then Morinth could ever do but you seem to think that's at least acceptable.
I for one do not think that, and will be screwing Cerberus over in every possible way in ME3. If ME2 gave me the option, I'd have rejected them from the start.


but then the question comes back to 'why doesn't Morinth get a second chance?'
The fact that giving her a "second chance" requires murdering Samara, an action that is impossible to justify, is a damn good reason.

Zevox

[Cristo Meyers]

Jack can be returned to prison after the struggle is over if need be, or you might stabilize her along the way. Samara cannot be brought back from the grave.

Not to mention one other major reason that Jack gets out of prison or other morally abhorrent characters get recruited: the game doesn't give you a choice.

I'd love to know how many people took one look at Jack and went "Oh Hell no," I know I'm one, so's LadyMeyers. But, the game doesn't give you a choice. You have to recruit her.



The problem is there is no evidence whatsoever in the game that she would have such a problem living with that knowledge. You're simply making that up - it's a total assumption which there is no rational reason for anyone to believe.

Most of her conversations seem to indicate that she not only accepts the fact that she's going to have to kill her own daughter, but accepts that.

[Giggling Ghast]

So's Shepard, the difference is that Morinth kills the wrong people (artists, Nem, those people who won't be missed widely, etc) instead of the right people (those bent on destroying all sentient life, drug cartels, mercenary gangs, etc).

Here's another difference: Shepard kills out of necessity, in pursuit of a larger goal. Morinth kills for fun, and out of a need to fuel her addiction.

If the Reapers were no longer a problem, Shepard could retire to some backwater planet and never have to shoot another person. Morinth? Will keep on killing across the galaxy until she's stopped.


More importantly Jack is an unstable monster that will continue to kill her way across the galaxy (unless I missed some significant character development when you romance her), but I don't see anyone talking about not recruiting her. Heck, Jack kills anyone she thinks is trying to screw her or who might be fun because it gives her warm fuzzy feelings inside.

Jack is incredibly dangerous, but she can at least be controlled. She at least recognizes the importance of your mission and follows your direction. And she isn't "compelled" to kill, like Morinth.

Even knowing the threat that the Reapers present to the galaxy, Morinth still tries to kill Shepard. That to me says volumes about any "hope" of redeeming Morinth.


How is that insane troll logic? :smallconfused: The asari have demonstrated maternal instincts and displayed enough emotional similarity to humans to display guilt. Would you want to live with the knowledge that you killed one of your children? And don't spout 'that's irrational' or 'she's a killer' either, because neither of those apply in this case. Emotions aren't rationale and push come to shove Morinth is STILL Samara's daughter, except for the fact Morinth is killing no more people then any other Asari in a merc-gang (like Eclipse) (Or is a number given to how many Morinth has killed?) and she actually has an excuse for killing those people, admittedly a below average one, unlike those asari who only have 'for the credits'.

Sure, Samara will grieve for her daughter. But Samara is strong. She can deal with that pain. She recognizes the necessity of killing Morinth. By your logic, Shepard should be tracking down and murdering the relatives and friends of everyone he kills in battle to spare them the "pain" of missing their loved ones.


Morinth is/will be more powerful in the long run (assuming she survives) and is still salvageable just like any other addict is (which is the prime reason my one Fem!Shep saved her, it was her hobby to fix people and Morinth is in desperate need of fixing like Jack is) and if it turns out she can't be turned? ...Well look at that, there's this nice and deadly suicide mission where Morinth can finally make her evil little life amount for something by dying in the name of trying to preserve all life in the galaxy.

In other words, you killed a loyal teammate to indulge your hobby?


And here's the big one, again, you work with worse people! Game-play necessity or not, Shepard is willing to work with Cerberus who has done things on an order of magnitudes worse then Morinth could ever do but you seem to think that's at least acceptable. How's the people behind the Praggia facility, Project Overlord, or hell...projects that aren't even given NAMES in Mass Effect 1 somehow more tolerable then Morinth? :smallconfused:

Did I say that Cerberus' actions were justified? That's a red herring (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawmanFallacy). You're shifting the goalposts on me. I didn't want to work with Cerberus, but it was necessary to do so.


The only way the biotic serial killer is going to melt Shepard's brain is if he/she is stupid enough to ignore all the warning sides and try to sex up Morinth anyway. If that's the case you deserve what's coming to you.

But even if she doesn't kill you, you know that, eventually, she is going to kill someone again.

[Zevox]

I think you mixed up Callos and Cristo there, Zevox. :smalltongue:
Ah, yes. Sorry :smallredface: . Will edit delete that post, since it serves no purpose given the case of mistaken identity.

Zevox

[mangosta71]

But what makes Morinth more useful/powerful than Samara? They're roughly equal in their biotic strength (morinth is probably a little stronger) but Samara has a ton more experience and is better trained.

Samara is restrained by a code. I'll bet on someone who's willing to fight dirty over an honorable combatant any day. This ties into the moral flexibility which has already been mentioned and discussed. Sure, Morinth tries to kill you, but condemning her for that is kind of entrapment since you went in there with the express purpose of getting her to do so. Morinth volunteers to follow you, no strings attached, and no looming threat of coming after you once everything is over. Contrast that with Samara, who requires you to go on a hunt through a dangerous neighborhood before she'll even agree to go with you, and then expects you to go with her while she deals with personal issues, and throws in the promise that she'll probably try to kill you after the Reapers are dealt with (face it, there's no way you're gonna make it all the way through the war without doing anything she finds objectionable).

I find it kind of funny that people are saying that Jack can be tossed back into prison once it's all over if necessary, but Morinth can't. And Jack doesn't kill for fun? Lol. The two are incredibly similar, and if anything Morinth is more useful as a squad member given their abilities.

From a meta-perspective, since I'm using the mod that allows powers to affect shielded targets, dominate is significantly better than reave.

[Dienekes]

Samara is restrained by a code. I'll bet on someone who's willing to fight dirty over an honorable combatant any day. This ties into the moral flexibility which has already been mentioned and discussed. Sure, Morinth tries to kill you, but condemning her for that is kind of entrapment since you went in there with the express purpose of getting her to do so. Morinth volunteers to follow you, no strings attached, and no looming threat of coming after you once everything is over. Contrast that with Samara, who requires you to go on a hunt through a dangerous neighborhood before she'll even agree to go with you, and then expects you to go with her while she deals with personal issues, and throws in the promise that she'll probably try to kill you after the Reapers are dealt with (face it, there's no way you're gonna make it all the way through the war without doing anything she finds objectionable).

It's not that Morinth tries to kill you. It's that Morinth hunts art students and innocents to get her fix. And no, there are strings attached to Morinth. Morinth's string is that you kill a member of your own team. Hell if you pull that off, you and Morinth pretty much deserve each other.
It also is about baggage. Samara has a job, she is more wary of joining you because she doen't know you and she has a job of her own. Morinth has no responsibilities she just wants to screw people and kill them. Notably, she tries to do this to you even after you save her.


I find it kind of funny that people are saying that Jack can be tossed back into prison once it's all over if necessary, but Morinth can't. And Jack doesn't kill for fun? Lol. The two are incredibly similar, and if anything Morinth is more useful as a squad member given their abilities.

One person said you can toss Jack back in prison. And the person who made the comparison of Jack and Morinth was agreeing with you. As well no one denied she didn't kill for fun. In fact the statements so far are "you can change her" which is true, "you can't not get her, unfortunately" which is also true, and "she can be controlled for the mission so that she doesn't try to kill you." Personally, they're both sociopaths. One however was pushed into it through abuses, the other was given an option to not kill anyone for the greater good of life and choose instead to feed off art majors. They're both pretty despicable mind you, and I agree with your assessment and personally would rather see them both locked away or rehabilitated. In the game, it is possible to do for one, the other just tries to kill you. As well as in putting someone in a prison, I personally would think it's hard to do that to someone who can control people with her mind. That's just me though.

And for more useful? Warp Ammo, man, just Warp Ammo.


From a meta-perspective, since I'm using the mod that allows powers to affect shielded targets, dominate is significantly better than reave.

Now that's just cheating.
Also, GAHH Morinth is just mind-bogglingly annoying. How can you stand her long enough to save her?

[Athaniar]

Lair of the Shadow Broker was awesome. Especially the dossiers. BioWare are truly the masters of storytelling (and humor). Some highlights:

Legion's gaming profile. Three-day suspension for taunting.

Mordin's mission log, both the banter with Kirrahe and the long-awaited (?) explanation of not only his injuries, but also his lethal use of farming equipment.

Grunt's search log, especially "tyrannosaurus wrex". And sharks.

Garrus's visor. I want one of those! Also his ironic kills.

Hackett's reply. That man is awesome.

Anderson getting drunk to conspiracy theorist and alternate character interpretation vids.

Thane's preferred kill methods.

The Illusive Man's sexual liaisons (past week).

And that's not mentioning the sad parts, which were incredibly well done.


One thing that did annoy me (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) at first was the Shadow Broker's true identity. Here I am with my fancy theories ("it has to be Sha'ira!") and then I walk into the Broker's room and he is... an alien of a species that has never even been hinted at before? But the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Why would the Shadow Broker be someone you recognize? And besides, it's a good place to introduce the Yagh (assuming they will actually show up in part 3), a species of Genius Bruisers, just like the Batarians were introduced in Bring Down the Sky (well, they had at least been mentioned before, but still).

[Name_Here]

Samara is restrained by a code. I'll bet on someone who's willing to fight dirty over an honorable combatant any day. This ties into the moral flexibility which has already been mentioned and discussed. Sure, Morinth tries to kill you, but condemning her for that is kind of entrapment since you went in there with the express purpose of getting her to do so.

That isn't entrapment at all. She was on the hunt that night if she didn't try to kill Shepard she would have tried killing somebody else. Entrapment requires the police officer to encite somebody to an illegal act that they wouldn't otherwise do.


Morinth volunteers to follow you, no strings attached, and no looming threat of coming after you once everything is over. Contrast that with Samara, who requires you to go on a hunt through a dangerous neighborhood before she'll even agree to go with you, and then expects you to go with her while she deals with personal issues, and throws in the promise that she'll probably try to kill you after the Reapers are dealt with (face it, there's no way you're gonna make it all the way through the war without doing anything she finds objectionable).

Has nobody paid attention to the code that she swears to? She doesn't care about what you do. She promises to only kill you if you force her to commit a dishonorable act.


I find it kind of funny that people are saying that Jack can be tossed back into prison once it's all over if necessary, but Morinth can't. And Jack doesn't kill for fun? Lol. The two are incredibly similar, and if anything Morinth is more useful as a squad member given their abilities.

I find it funny because Jack's recruitment mission you blow the prison ship up and leave the ship in shape that is only good for being scuttled. So Jack can't be "tossed back in prison." But Morinth can't be tossed in prison because you have no evidence that she has ever committed a crime that she can be charged for. Samara knew but she never said where those crimes were committed. Then of course there is the fact that there probably is no way to prove that she committed any of the murders because she kills by brain hemorrhage.

[Giggling Ghast]

It's disturbing how frequently the Illusive Man gets laid. (And with an asari — the hypocrite!) I found Miranda's dossier and Tali's dossier to be especially sad, as well as Legion's dossier to a lesser extent

[Cristo Meyers]

Has nobody paid attention to the code that she swears to? She doesn't care about what you do. She promises to only kill you if you force her to commit a dishonorable act.


She promises not to kill you at the time if you do. She flat out says that after the mission is over, she'll come after you if she has to.

But considering I'm one-for-one in taking out Asari Matriarchs, I like my chances...:smallamused:


It's disturbing how frequently the Illusive Man gets laid. (And with an asari — the hypocrite!)

The Hugh Heffner of the galaxy, voiced by Martin Sheen...:smallbiggrin:



I found Miranda's dossier and Tali's dossier to be especially sad, as well as Legion's dossier to a lesser extent

Tali's was ok, but Miranda's I could throw in the garbage right now. But that's mostly because I absolutely hate the possiblity of her turning into yet another "my accomplishments mean nothing because I can't be a mommy!" character.

Is it especially likely? No, Bioware has better writers than that, but I think it would be a very pathetic way to develop that character. She's already well developed, no need to throw in a cliche' to try and add more.

[Giggling Ghast]

I doubt that will be the case, Cristo.

What's disturbing is that this benign tumor was deliberatly created and that her father has sterilized her. If I had to guess, he probably didn't want to chance her getting pregnant with any partner he didn't specifically approve of. As if his whole ****ing deal with attaining perfect offspring wasn't creepy enough.

It's just the finality of the revelation … It doesn't matter whether or not Miranda even wanted children, but the fact that she simply can't is a bit sad in and of itself. It's another choice that's been taken away from her.

[mangosta71]

Tali's was ok, but Miranda's I could throw in the garbage right now. But that's mostly because I absolutely hate the possiblity of her turning into yet another "my accomplishments mean nothing because I can't be a mommy!" character.

Is it especially likely? No, Bioware has better writers than that, but I think it would be a very pathetic way to develop that character. She's already well developed, no need to throw in a cliche' to try and add more.
That seems counterproductive if his goal was to build a dynasty. Perhaps, in his narcissism, he wants to force his children to reproduce in the same way he does? Or perhaps he was wanting to get some self-love on when they were old enough and not have to worry about pregnancy. *shudder*

[VanBuren]

She promises not to kill you at the time if you do. She flat out says that after the mission is over, she'll come after you if she has to.

But considering I'm one-for-one in taking out Asari Matriarchs, I like my chances...:smallamused:

She's only ever made that threat again for my Renegade. My Paragon has only been thanked since the oath.

[Callos_DeTerran]

More Morinth Debate:
No, the difference is that Sheperd is a soldier/spectre trying to defend the galaxy from threats that would destroy it and maintain the peace while she's at it, while Morinth is a serial killer who kills anyone who interests her because she feels like it. There is no comparison to be made there.

Actually that's my exact point. The only real difference (and admittedly it's a massive one) is who the two target. Shepard makes the galaxy a better place by his/her killing while Morinth probably doesn't (unless there's something like evil artistic people out there which would be more then slightly funny.


Jack can be returned to prison after the struggle is over if need be, or you might stabilize her along the way. Samara cannot be brought back from the grave.

Yeah, cause you know Jack's going to be already to go back into prison and cryostasis containment just because the struggle is over. :smallconfused:

And you're partially right, I'm pretty sure Project Lazarus could bring Samara back if the Illusive Man was so inclined (doubt he is), but look at it another way. How many years does Samara have left? 300 or so, give or take a couple decades. Assuming Morinth could be stabilized and weaned off her addiction (see below), she has (easily) twice that time to make up for her crime, and if she's with Shepard then she'll get more then ample chances to do so if she doesn't die trying to stop the Reapers which...is likely the most important thing ANYONE could be doing.


The problem is there is no evidence whatsoever in the game that she would have such a problem living with that knowledge. You're simply making that up - it's a total assumption which there is no rational reason for anyone to believe.

:smallconfused: Did you miss the talk with her right after the deed where she laments killing the 'best' (Okay, not Samara's exact words but I don't remember them and they amounted to this pretty much) of her daughters and asks to be left alone? Maybe it's just me but the tones of grief and sadness in her voice were what convinced me that no matter how much she might 'accept' it had to be done, she still regretted that had to be done. Hell, that's half the reason I think she even bothered to continue traveling with Shepard after that, half hoping the Collectors would do her in (the other half being because of her code).


I for one do not think that, and will be screwing Cerberus over in every possible way in ME3. If ME2 gave me the option, I'd have rejected them from the start.

Likewise. Only one of my three Shepards would have willingly joined Cerebrus and even she gave TIM the finger because she saw how bad an idea that was. Hell, my 'main' Shepard is a Sole Survivor, if the game had given me the chance she would have found a way to discover where the Illusive Man was just to put a bullet in his brain pan, help or no help. Seeing how I was forced to work with Cerberus, I had to come up with a reason to justify why that Shepard would do such. What I came up with was simply 'this thing is too big to let personal...problems get in the why. I'll work with whoever I have to in order to stop the Reapers, but they have one chance to not screw me over completely'. TIM blew that chance at the Collector base, Morinth does it if you are stupid enough to make out with her, but then there's no chance to get even with Morinth because then you are dead.


The fact that giving her a "second chance" requires murdering Samara, an action that is impossible to justify, is a damn good reason.

Zevox

Impossible for you to justify, maybe. And (just for future reference) I'd like to point out that 2/3 of my Shepards STILL pick Samara because it makes sense for them, I don't blindly pick Morinth every time.


Here's another difference: Shepard kills out of necessity, in pursuit of a larger goal. Morinth kills for fun, and out of a need to fuel her addiction.

If the Reapers were no longer a problem, Shepard could retire to some backwater planet and never have to shoot another person. Morinth? Will keep on killing across the galaxy until she's stopped.

Good point, Shepard could but I doubt he/she would. They are, to the bone, a soldier/Spectre. They were BEFORE the Reapers and likely will be after (if alive). That's not to say they'd climb the Conduit with a Widow once the battles over, but I have my doubts Shepard's just going to stop being a soldier once all is said and done. And you're right, Morinth DOES need to be stopped, but that doesn't necessarily mean killing her either.


Jack is incredibly dangerous, but she can at least be controlled. She at least recognizes the importance of your mission and follows your direction. And she isn't "compelled" to kill, like Morinth.

So can Morinth! And frankly, Jack's need to kill things seems stronger then Morinth but only because Jack is more open about it.


Even knowing the threat that the Reapers present to the galaxy, Morinth still tries to kill Shepard. That to me says volumes about any "hope" of redeeming Morinth.

That comes back to ignoring Morinth's nature as an Ardat-Yakshi and (yes, I tried it once to see if there was any revealing dialogue or anything) her entire cause for proposing it to Shepard is because she thinks he/she is different from everyone else...which...Shepard is, but not in that way. And before someone says 'she was lying', does that really make sense she'd lie at that moment? The only time it can happen is when you are on the ship, a ship full of very dangerous people who are loyal to Shepard's mission and won't hesitate to kill the person who killed Shepard. It'd make no sense for her to try and do it on purpose when there's no exit strategy, no escape route, just quick and painful death or brutal experimentation by Cerberus THEN death. So yeah, it's your own dang fault if Morinth kills Shepard because Shepard (and you) should now better then to rely on someone's 'feeling' that they are different from everyone else.


Sure, Samara will grieve for her daughter. But Samara is strong. She can deal with that pain. She recognizes the necessity of killing Morinth. By your logic, Shepard should be tracking down and murdering the relatives and friends of everyone he kills in battle to spare them the "pain" of missing their loved ones.

See, that's a red herring right there. Last I checked, none of those friends and relatives didn't gun down the people Shepard kills. Shepard does. And I get the feeling you are underestimating the 'pain' Samara feels. This isn't just 'killed faceless merc #132 today', this is 'today my daughter died. And oh yeah, I'm the one who killed her'. More importantly, how can you be certain she can? If there was one time I was disappointed in Bioware's writing abilities, it was that Samara under-reacted to the fact she just killed her own child.


In other words, you killed a loyal teammate to indulge your hobby?

Hobby is too light a word. Lemme put it this way. If that Shepard could redeem someone? She did it. It wasn't a hobby so much as a driving facet of her life to cope with her own loses. Tabitha, Jack, Tali (post loyalty mission), Liara (post Noveria), etc were all pivotal moments for that Shepard because she always tried to fix them or turn them around to the brighter side of things. Always. The only exception were batarians. Morinth was someone in desperate need of help to that Shepard, help that only she could give.

I only found out afterwords that the only real dialogue with Morinth is being told how it feels for Morinth to kill and 'death-by-space-succubus'. Which would make this the SECOND time I was disappointed in Bioware's writing because I lost Samara for that character and wasn't even given the chance to rehabilitate Morinth.


Did I say that Cerberus' actions were justified? That's a red herring (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawmanFallacy). You're shifting the goalposts on me. I didn't want to work with Cerberus, but it was necessary to do so.

Er...that's not a red herring considering I never claimed you said that nor did I direct that argument at you. o.o That was a simple general argument. I'd hope you didn't want to work with Cerberus, no matter how charismatic TIM is.


But even if she doesn't kill you, you know that, eventually, she is going to kill someone again.

So is Garrus, Jack, Grunt, Zaeed, and Thane if he wasn't dying. The fact she's going to kill again is, frankly, irrelevant considering so is half of your squad. The only relevant thing about her killing again is if she goes back to preying on the innocent, which is...impossible to know until Mass Effect 3 or something else.

And lemme set the record straight (again), I usually don't take Morinth myself but it fit one of my Shepard's personalities to do so, thus I did. I simply find it irking to hear people go on that it's a stupid decision within the game when it is rationale (depending on your Shepard) and gets you a nifty power...and some lack luster dialogue options.

[VanBuren]

Hoo boy. Samara "under-reacted" to killing her child, because she's had about 400 years to make peace with the fact that she had too. Even though she's only actually killed Morinth recently, she's known that she was going to since she became a Justicar.

[Cristo Meyers]

I doubt that will be the case, Cristo.

To quote a wise turian: "I like cynicism, sometimes you're pleasantly surprised."


What's disturbing is that this benign tumor was deliberatly created and that her father has sterilized her. If I had to guess, he probably didn't want to chance her getting pregnant with any partner he didn't specifically approve of. As if his whole ****ing deal with attaining perfect offspring wasn't creepy enough.


It's like a bad episode of Criminal Minds...


It's just the finality of the revelation … It doesn't matter whether or not Miranda even wanted children, but the fact that she simply can't is a bit sad in and of itself. It's another choice that's been taken away from her.

True, but I've just seen this particular story type basically take over a character too many times.


That seems counterproductive if his goal was to build a dynasty. Perhaps, in his narcissism, he wants to force his children to reproduce in the same way he does? Or perhaps he was wanting to get some self-love on when they were old enough and not have to worry about pregnancy. *shudder*

Talk about earning your M rating...


Hoo boy. Samara "under-reacted" to killing her child, because she's had about 400 years to make peace with the fact that she had too. Even though she's only actually killed Morinth recently, she's known that she was going to since she became a Justicar.

Considering she became a Justicar because of Morinth...

[Philistine]

Tali's was ok, but Miranda's I could throw in the garbage right now. But that's mostly because I absolutely hate the possiblity of her turning into yet another "my accomplishments mean nothing because I can't be a mommy!" character.

Is it especially likely? No, Bioware has better writers than that, but I think it would be a very pathetic way to develop that character. She's already well developed, no need to throw in a cliche' to try and add more.
Such a development would be redundant, given that - thanks to Daddy Dearest - Miranda already thinks her accomplishments mean nothing.

But yes - I also would be disappointed if BW took the character in that direction. Especially with the shortage of well-written, interesting, non-squicky or -psycho LIs in the series so far.

[Name_Here]

She promises not to kill you at the time if you do. She flat out says that after the mission is over, she'll come after you if she has to.

Like I said you all need to watch that scene again. She only says she will come after you if you use her oath to make her do something dishonorable. I've played through the game and you never force her to do anything of the sort.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Like I said you all need to watch that scene again. She only says she will come after you if you use her oath to make her do something dishonorable. I've played through the game and you never force her to do anything of the sort.

How do you know that? Last time I checked the Justicar's code of honor never shows up in the Codex.

[VanBuren]

How do you know that? Last time I checked the Justicar's code of honor never shows up in the Codex.

So there's no way to prove that any of your in-game actions violated the code?

Well, there went that argument.

[Name_Here]

More Morinth Debate:


Actually that's my exact point. The only real difference (and admittedly it's a massive one) is who the two target. Shepard makes the galaxy a better place by his/her killing while Morinth probably doesn't (unless there's something like evil artistic people out there which would be more then slightly funny.

Well that the circumstances shepard kills people who are actively shooting at him while Morinth hunts and kills defenseless people.


Yeah, cause you know Jack's going to be already to go back into prison and cryostasis containment just because the struggle is over. :smallconfused:

Doesn't really matter. Jack's a mad dog powerful and cunning but in the end unintelligent and unable to plan. She can be recaptured and put back into whatever prison when the job is done.

Morinth on the other hand has centuries of experience in evading the law and even if captured she retains the ability to plan an escape more subtle than destroy everything and hope there is a ship for me to grab when the dust settles.


And you're partially right, I'm pretty sure Project Lazarus could bring Samara back if the Illusive Man was so inclined (doubt he is), but look at it another way. How many years does Samara have left? 300 or so, give or take a couple decades. Assuming Morinth could be stabilized and weaned off her addiction (see below), she has (easily) twice that time to make up for her crime, and if she's with Shepard then she'll get more then ample chances to do so if she doesn't die trying to stop the Reapers which...is likely the most important thing ANYONE could be doing.

But there really is no reason to believe that she would ever change from the predator she was. Addicts only change after they hit rock bottom that's when they finally realize they have a problem and that the only way out is to stop feeding their addiction.

Also Morinth is not an addict. She has none of the physical signs nor do any of her actions show that she is looking for a fix when she makes the kill. She led Nef on for weeks before finally making the kill. She kills because she enjoys it not because she has to.


:smallconfused: Did you miss the talk with her right after the deed where she laments killing the 'best' (Okay, not Samara's exact words but I don't remember them and they amounted to this pretty much) of her daughters and asks to be left alone? Maybe it's just me but the tones of grief and sadness in her voice were what convinced me that no matter how much she might 'accept' it had to be done, she still regretted that had to be done. Hell, that's half the reason I think she even bothered to continue traveling with Shepard after that, half hoping the Collectors would do her in (the other half being because of her code).

Honestly I didn't get that feeling from any of the conversations you have following the one where she mourns having killed Morinth. If anything afterwords her spirits seem to be renewed and she looks forward to returning to her life as a justicar.

There is no reason to think she became a death seeker.


Likewise. Only one of my three Shepards would have willingly joined Cerebrus and even she gave TIM the finger because she saw how bad an idea that was. Hell, my 'main' Shepard is a Sole Survivor, if the game had given me the chance she would have found a way to discover where the Illusive Man was just to put a bullet in his brain pan, help or no help. Seeing how I was forced to work with Cerberus, I had to come up with a reason to justify why that Shepard would do such. What I came up with was simply 'this thing is too big to let personal...problems get in the why. I'll work with whoever I have to in order to stop the Reapers, but they have one chance to not screw me over completely'. TIM blew that chance at the Collector base, Morinth does it if you are stupid enough to make out with her, but then there's no chance to get even with Morinth because then you are dead.




Good point, Shepard could but I doubt he/she would. They are, to the bone, a soldier/Spectre. They were BEFORE the Reapers and likely will be after (if alive). That's not to say they'd climb the Conduit with a Widow once the battles over, but I have my doubts Shepard's just going to stop being a soldier once all is said and done. And you're right, Morinth DOES need to be stopped, but that doesn't necessarily mean killing her either.

Unfortunately it actually does mean killing her. Morinth shows no remorse for any of her killings and shows no understanding of why she needs to change. Every conversation you have with her or her mother about her shows her to be a complete monster who kills for the pleasure of it. Not for self defense not to feed some addiction but because she enjoys it.


So can Morinth! And frankly, Jack's need to kill things seems stronger then Morinth but only because Jack is more open about it.

Jack kills out of fear and anger Morinth kills for the pleasure of it.


That comes back to ignoring Morinth's nature as an Ardat-Yakshi and (yes, I tried it once to see if there was any revealing dialogue or anything) her entire cause for proposing it to Shepard is because she thinks he/she is different from everyone else...which...Shepard is, but not in that way. And before someone says 'she was lying', does that really make sense she'd lie at that moment? The only time it can happen is when you are on the ship, a ship full of very dangerous people who are loyal to Shepard's mission and won't hesitate to kill the person who killed Shepard. It'd make no sense for her to try and do it on purpose when there's no exit strategy, no escape route, just quick and painful death or brutal experimentation by Cerberus THEN death. So yeah, it's your own dang fault if Morinth kills Shepard because Shepard (and you) should now better then to rely on someone's 'feeling' that they are different from everyone else.

There is no reason to believe that there isn't some escape plan she has spent centuries evading Asari justice and honing her hunting methods. Morinth wouldn't sit around on the Normandy sitting demurely until Shepard decides what to do with her. She is a predator the fact that it is risky would only make the kill more exciting.


See, that's a red herring right there. Last I checked, none of those friends and relatives didn't gun down the people Shepard kills. Shepard does. And I get the feeling you are underestimating the 'pain' Samara feels. This isn't just 'killed faceless merc #132 today', this is 'today my daughter died. And oh yeah, I'm the one who killed her'. More importantly, how can you be certain she can? If there was one time I was disappointed in Bioware's writing abilities, it was that Samara under-reacted to the fact she just killed her own child.

You said you were convinced she became a death seeker after Morinth's death.


Hobby is too light a word. Lemme put it this way. If that Shepard could redeem someone? She did it. It wasn't a hobby so much as a driving facet of her life to cope with her own loses. Tabitha, Jack, Tali (post loyalty mission), Liara (post Noveria), etc were all pivotal moments for that Shepard because she always tried to fix them or turn them around to the brighter side of things. Always. The only exception were batarians. Morinth was someone in desperate need of help to that Shepard, help that only she could give.

This makes no sense. Morinth shows no want or need to be fixed or helped when you kill Samara. She promises to help you not to change her ways or listen to your sage council.


I only found out afterwords that the only real dialogue with Morinth is being told how it feels for Morinth to kill and 'death-by-space-succubus'. Which would make this the SECOND time I was disappointed in Bioware's writing because I lost Samara for that character and wasn't even given the chance to rehabilitate Morinth.

Of course you weren't given the chance to rehabilitate Morinth. She has spent centuries committing atrocities and preying on innocents what on earth could Shepard say or do to change that? It's absurd to think that there is any reason to believe that Morinth has anything good underneath the succubus exterior.


How do you know that? Last time I checked the Justicar's code of honor never shows up in the Codex.

It doesn't need to. She declares that until the reapers are defeated your code of honor is her oath.

She doesn't expect you to follow the oath of the Justicar she just doesn't want you exploiting her code and she warns you against trying to do so. And I have never found a dialogue option that would have Shepard exploiting her oath in such a way

[Zevox]

Morinth stuff:

Samara is restrained by a code.
Not while she's with you, actually. Didn't you pay attention when she told you that the oath she swore to you would override her code until the Collectors were defeated?


I find it kind of funny that people are saying that Jack can be tossed back into prison once it's all over if necessary, but Morinth can't.
I am the only one who said the former, and I did not say the latter. I said that Samara could not be brought back from the grave. Jack's temporary freedom is the necessary risk of recruiting her, but Samara's life is the price for recruiting Morinth. Hence the comparison.


Actually that's my exact point.
...so your point is that you don't have a point :smallconfused: ? Because that's the only way to read that response - you compared Sheperd's killing to Morinth's, I pointed out that there is no comparison to be made there because Sheperd is a soldier while Morinth is a serial killer... and you say that's your point. That makes no sense whatsoever.


Yeah, cause you know Jack's going to be already to go back into prison and cryostasis containment just because the struggle is over. :smallconfused:
Of course she wouldn't go willingly. That's why you have Sheperd.


And you're partially right, I'm pretty sure Project Lazarus could bring Samara back if the Illusive Man was so inclined (doubt he is), but look at it another way. How many years does Samara have left? 300 or so, give or take a couple decades. Assuming Morinth could be stabilized and weaned off her addiction (see below), she has (easily) twice that time to make up for her crime, and if she's with Shepard then she'll get more then ample chances to do so if she doesn't die trying to stop the Reapers which...is likely the most important thing ANYONE could be doing.
You're kidding. You're actually arguing that it's okay to kill someone who has done nothing to warrant execution, who is in fact the Aasari equivalent of a Paladin engaged in hunting down a serial killer, in order to save that serial killer on the off chance that she might be redeemed (an extremely long off chance, given that it was Morinth's decision to embrace using her ability to begin with, and she quite obviously revels in doing so), because the former is much older than the latter? That is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have read on these forums. And I started posting here when people were seriously arguing that V was a Lich.


:smallconfused: Did you miss the talk with her right after the deed where she laments killing the 'best' (Okay, not Samara's exact words but I don't remember them and they amounted to this pretty much) of her daughters and asks to be left alone? Maybe it's just me but the tones of grief and sadness in her voice were what convinced me that no matter how much she might 'accept' it had to be done, she still regretted that had to be done. Hell, that's half the reason I think she even bothered to continue traveling with Shepard after that, half hoping the Collectors would do her in (the other half being because of her code).
Of course she was sad - she killed her own daughter. The part you're making up whole cloth is the notion that she would rather die than carry out the mission that she explicitly chose to dedicate centuries of her life to carrying out. Honestly, what did you expect, that if she was actually willing to live with having done this that she'd react to it like some emotionless drone?


Impossible for you to justify, maybe.
Impossible to justify with any rational thought.


And you're right, Morinth DOES need to be stopped, but that doesn't necessarily mean killing her either.
When the choice is kill her or kill Samara, yes, yes it does mean that.


If there was one time I was disappointed in Bioware's writing abilities, it was that Samara under-reacted to the fact she just killed her own child.
...you cited her reaction earlier as evidence of your ludicrous theory that she does not want to live through killing Morinth, yet here you claim she "under-reacted" to killing her? This is getting even more ridiculous than the "V is a Lich" theory, and that's saying something.


So is Garrus, Jack, Grunt, Zaeed, and Thane if he wasn't dying. The fact she's going to kill again is, frankly, irrelevant considering so is half of your squad. The only relevant thing about her killing again is if she goes back to preying on the innocent, which is...impossible to know until Mass Effect 3 or something else.
Most of your squad kills because they're soldiers of some kind or another - it's their job. Jack is the only one comparable to Morinth, and again, if she doesn't get rehabilitated on the way, she can be thrown back in prison. But attempting that with Morinth means killing Samara, something that cannot be justified or undone.
Zevox

[Dienekes]

I'm just vaguely amused that the argument comes down to. "I let the crazed serial killer mind controlling sociopath go, because one old lady may or may not be really sad."

While I kid, Callos, it's your runthrough and you should definitely play it as you want and bugger our opinions. But damn man (or woman as gender appears to be unstated), I don't understand your logic on this one.

[VanBuren]

I'm also amused at the argument that the only reason you can't redeem Morinth is because of BioWare's failure to write, rather than that BioWare chose not to write her as a redeemable character.

[BRC]

It's possible to justify not wanting to kill Morinth, but the way the game presents it to you, kill Morinth or kill Samara, you either have to let her die, or justify killing somebody sworn to uphold justice in order to save somebody with a literal addiction to murder.

[Avilan the Grey]

Not to mention one other major reason that Jack gets out of prison or other morally abhorrent characters get recruited: the game doesn't give you a choice.

I'd love to know how many people took one look at Jack and went "Oh Hell no," I know I'm one, so's LadyMeyers. But, the game doesn't give you a choice. You have to recruit her.

...

Most of her conversations seem to indicate that she not only accepts the fact that she's going to have to kill her own daughter, but accepts that.

Jack is... somewhat redeemable. She will always be a loose cannon, but by the end of the game she is not only loyal to you (which is the second time she is devoted to another human being, ever, and this is both if you romance her or only makes her your friend) which is in itself an enormous step forward for her, but she also seems far less aggressive in general (although she still "feels like" hurting people she does seem reluctant to actually do so, except in combat).
In short, even if you do not romance her, befriending her will make her an aggressive but functioning member of society.

Morinth is... a vampire. And not the "semi-monster sexy kind" or the "sparkly kind". She is an old-school vampire. The type that will seduce your wife before killing her, then eat your kids and finally seduce you against your will and eat you too. All while laughing inside because it's all so fun.
In a way I see her as a Take-That to modern vampire fiction, because she is truly evil and truly monstrous on a whole different level than Jack.

As for Samara... Exactly. It truly IS Insane Troll Logic to misread everything she says in the entire game (which is required to get to the conclusion that she is better off dead for her own sake).



Actually that's my exact point. The only real difference (and admittedly it's a massive one) is who the two target. Shepard makes the galaxy a better place by his/her killing while Morinth probably doesn't (unless there's something like evil artistic people out there which would be more then slightly funny.

And that's the "only" difference? The ONLY difference? The. Only. Difference.
Sorry, but seeing that as minor difference is mindboggling, to me.


And you're partially right, I'm pretty sure Project Lazarus could bring Samara back if the Illusive Man was so inclined (doubt he is), but look at it another way. How many years does Samara have left? 300 or so, give or take a couple decades. Assuming Morinth could be stabilized and weaned off her addiction (see below), she has (easily) twice that time to make up for her crime, and if she's with Shepard then she'll get more then ample chances to do so if she doesn't die trying to stop the Reapers which...is likely the most important thing ANYONE could be doing.

Even if I for a second believed that Morinth could be redeemed, you still have to murder Samara. Your argument is just Insane Troll Logic.



Maybe it's just me but the tones of grief and sadness in her voice were what convinced me that no matter how much she might 'accept' it had to be done, she still regretted that had to be done.

Duh. Of course she regrets it. She regrets everything, from the point where she decided to mate with another Asari (and therefore making the Curse possible in the first place) and everything from there. It is still Insane Troll Logic that she is better off dead.


See, that's a red herring right there. Last I checked, none of those friends and relatives didn't gun down the people Shepard kills. Shepard does. And I get the feeling you are underestimating the 'pain' Samara feels. This isn't just 'killed faceless merc #132 today', this is 'today my daughter died. And oh yeah, I'm the one who killed her'. More importantly, how can you be certain she can? If there was one time I was disappointed in Bioware's writing abilities, it was that Samara under-reacted to the fact she just killed her own child.

YMMV. I found the writing to be very good, and Samara's reaction to be very believable. She is someone that has come to terms with the fact that her daughter must be killed centuries ago. Why would she have a mental breakdown now?


Morinth was someone in desperate need of help to that Shepard, help that only she could give.

...And you tried to do that by murdering a loyal member on your team. And more than that, you did betray her at the moment of her death, basically spit in her face as you killed her. Yay Insane Troll Logic!


I only found out afterwords that the only real dialogue with Morinth is being told how it feels for Morinth to kill and 'death-by-space-succubus'. Which would make this the SECOND time I was disappointed in Bioware's writing because I lost Samara for that character and wasn't even given the chance to rehabilitate Morinth.

Duh. Samara told you she was a complete monster. Why would you get a chance of rehabilitate Morinth? You ignored what the story and characters in the game told you, making up your own story, and then got disappointed when the writers of the game ignored it and continued the original one instead?

[Zorg]

Earth-born background for Shepard would speak for the fact Shepard's killed people for (At least) personal advancement as well, though they don't go into how bad that gang is if I remember correctly.

The background has Shepard suprised that the Reds are dealing drugs and smuggling, also that
"As an Earth-born, you had a rough childhood in the slums of Earth, and have a gritty edge to your personality. You enlisted at the age of eighteen, in order to avoid falling into the trap of gang culture and poverty."
So Shepard joined up to avoid the violence more than anything.


I'd love to know how many people took one look at Jack and went "Oh Hell no," I know I'm one, so's LadyMeyers. But, the game doesn't give you a choice. You have to recruit her.

Me too, I never used her except her loyalty mission.





The asari have demonstrated maternal instincts and displayed enough emotional similarity to humans to display guilt. Would you want to live with the knowledge that you killed one of your children? And don't spout 'that's irrational' or 'she's a killer' either, because neither of those apply in this case. Emotions aren't rationale and push come to shove Morinth is STILL Samara's daughter, except for the fact Morinth is killing no more people then any other Asari in a merc-gang (like Eclipse) (Or is a number given to how many Morinth has killed?) and she actually has an excuse for killing those people, admittedly a below average one, unlike those asari who only have 'for the credits'.

I see Samara as a crazy warrior monk - she's effectively dedicated herself to her code to give her her strength to kill Morinth, who she feels responsible for unleashing (she also seems to feel responsible for the deaths of Morinth's victims).

Maybe it's because I'm a parent myself, but I understand the whole 'I'm proud of her strength, even though she used it for evil, but I had to destroy her as much for my own soul as hers'. Same thing happened with Underworld 2 when the dude couldn't kill his Warewolf son, despite it costing his own life. Puts the 'don't call me your mother' bit in perspective that Samara has taken the real Morinth (the one she loved and raised) to have died the moment she fled and became a vampiric serial killer.

I got the feeling that 'rescuing/rehabilitating' Morinth was a trap - you'd do it thinking 'I'll turn her good(ish) like Jack', but she is irredeemable. Kind of a 'whoops, should have listened to the paladin' moment.


If you just want the power: save, choose Morinth, reload, choose Samara, use advanced training and take Dominate yourself (the power becomes active once unlocked).



Most of her conversations seem to indicate that she not only accepts the fact that she's going to have to kill her own daughter, but accepts that.

LotSB adds that:
Samara's other daughters want Morinth dead too.

[Ranielle]

I want to play a female shep, but then I don't get to romance Tali.

Damn.

[Esser-Z]

I'd love to know how many people took one look at Jack and went "Oh Hell no," I know I'm one, so's LadyMeyers. But, the game doesn't give you a choice. You have to recruit her.

My Shepard was very worried with Jack. Loose cannon, psycho, etc. However, she makes a habit of looking beyond the surface, and trying to fix things. 'Twas pretty easy to spot the wounds. And, y'know. She's working with Cerberus, even if only extremely grudgingly. Plus, one of her best friends is a Krogan.
So far, the work put into civilizing Jack seems to be paying off.

Morinth... Well, Adrian's a lesbian with an Asari girlfriend. After viewing Nef's journals... there's no room for anything but taking down that monster. And Samara seems a reasonable sort--she was willing to try to negotiate as far as her code would allow on Illium.

(Given the number of model kits--okay, they're technically just models, but nothing says they can't be kits!-- she builds, she's a bit of a nerd, too, so Samara comes off Paladinish.)

((Also she's encountered Asari mother/daughter issues before, heh.))

[Archpaladin Zousha]

In short, even if you do not romance her, befriending her will make her an aggressive but functioning member of society.

Kind of. I didn't romance her in my last playthrough, and she seemed kind of hostile because I was seeing someone else (Miranda, if you're curious). Agressive but functioning, yes, but clingy too. Though I guess the clinginess is because she's getting better. She sees you as the only person who's ever given a **** about what she wants and thinks, and she worries that if you romance someone else that she'll lose you.

[The_Final_Stand]

I've just had a minor moment of horror referring to what Miranda's dossier from LotSB says:
She can't have children due to a fault in her genetic makeup. Since Oriana is her genetic twin, neither can she.

[chiasaur11]

You know, on a different note entirely...

Wouldn't a Krogan children's TV show be great?

I mean, their culture could use some help with the whole not dying out thing, and TV is a great unifier.

Grunt could host.

[Emperor Ing]

Tuchanka Idol prehaps? The most talented singers from all the clans allied to or part of Clan Urdnot pitted in an arena with only their wits and their kroganhood about them. 24 come in, only one comes out and becomes

YOUR

NEXT

TUCHANKA

IDOL!!!!

[Joran]

I want to play a female shep, but then I don't get to romance Tali.

Damn.

I was disappointed too, so I stuck with Liara.

[Khosan]

Tuchanka Idol prehaps? The most talented singers from all the clans allied to or part of Clan Urdnot pitted in an arena with only their wits and their kroganhood about them. 24 come in, only one comes out and becomes

YOUR

NEXT

TUCHANKA

IDOL!!!!

I think it'd be infinitely more likely to see Tuchankan Gladiator.

[mangosta71]

You think that a competition between a bunch of krogan singers wouldn't turn out the same way?

[Yana]

I think it'd be infinitely more likely to see Tuchankan Gladiator.

Sooo... Basically what most Krogan do, only with a tv camera nearby?

[Esser-Z]

I was disappointed too, so I stuck with Liara.
While I stuck with Liara for reasons beyond "no other chicks", it is frustrating that Femshep/Tali has dialogue recorded, but not implemented.

(I'm also picturing a FemShep hanging out with Friend Zone Quarian now.)

[chiasaur11]

Tuchanka Idol prehaps? The most talented singers from all the clans allied to or part of Clan Urdnot pitted in an arena with only their wits and their kroganhood about them. 24 come in, only one comes out and becomes

YOUR

NEXT

TUCHANKA

IDOL!!!!

I was thinking more in the Sesame Street or Mr. Rodgers neighborhood, really.

Teaching counting, sharing, and how to make an enemies list.

[Ailurus]

I was thinking more in the Sesame Street or Mr. Rodgers neighborhood, really.

Teaching counting, sharing, and how to make an enemies list.

Hey, perfect job for Grunt once he settles down, then, since he's got the knowledge of a whole pile of Krogan warlords stuck in his head.

Up next, counting Warlord Granth style...

[Joran]

While I stuck with Liara for reasons beyond "no other chicks", it is frustrating that Femshep/Tali has dialogue recorded, but not implemented.

(I'm also picturing a FemShep hanging out with Friend Zone Quarian now.)

Well, I looked at all of the romance options as Female Shepard. Jacob is boring, Thane is a dead man (with a dead wife) so there's not much potential there, Garrus is more of a fling. So, none of the romance options for FemShep are particularly appealing.

[mangosta71]

Maybe FemShep will be able to romance Tali in ME3. Still has the weird "little sister" vibe, but I imagine a lot of fans would be happy with it.

[Erloas]

As for the Morinth and Jack comparisons... I'm trying to remember how much you actually know about Jack before getting her on your crew. You know she is a very powerful biotic, she is dangerous, and she is currently in prison. In going to pick her up you quickly learn that the prison is a lot of things, and legitimate isn't high on the list.

I don't think you learn about her indifference to killing until after you have her on board. She also doesn't seem to enjoy killing so much as she sees it as the fastest and easiest way out of a problem and to help keep the problem from coming back.

Yes, you know she has killed people... but how many people do you work with that aren't regularly killing people? Mordin is responsible for a whole lot more deaths, Thane is an assassin, Archangel/Garrus isn't mentioned in the lead up to meeting him outside of the context of killing a lot of people. In fact, and almost ironically, the only person you recruit that isn't a killer is Grunt (though it was only a matter of him not having been "born" yet).

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm also amused at the argument that the only reason you can't redeem Morinth is because of BioWare's failure to write, rather than that BioWare chose not to write her as a redeemable character.

A) They usually do make characters redeemable or damnable in some fashion or the other. B) That was moreso a complaint that you can't do anything with Morinth besides get yourself killed. No elaboration on back story, no try to convince her what she's doing is wrong, no anything really.


It's possible to justify not wanting to kill Morinth, but the way the game presents it to you, kill Morinth or kill Samara, you either have to let her die, or justify killing somebody sworn to uphold justice in order to save somebody with a literal addiction to murder.

Would this be the same Samara who was going to break her way out of jail in 24 hours if you don't finish her recruitment mission and take out (or kill as the one cop suggests) any cops in her way? :smallconfused: Samara isn't a paladin (to put it in D&D terms) She's more like a Knight Templar (to put it in TVTropes terms).


YMMV. I found the writing to be very good, and Samara's reaction to be very believable. She is someone that has come to terms with the fact that her daughter must be killed centuries ago. Why would she have a mental breakdown now?

It was good...it just comes up a grand total of once (twice if you count the brief conversation in the apartment). That's what I find as average writing, you'd think something like that would weigh more heavily on Samara's mind, or she'd be thinking about it more then just that once. But she doesn't.

[Giggling Ghast]

A) They usually do make characters redeemable or damnable in some fashion or the other. B) That was moreso a complaint that you can't do anything with Morinth besides get yourself killed. No elaboration on back story, no try to convince her what she's doing is wrong, no anything really.

You ever think that maybe there was a good reason for that? Such as her being completely irredeemable?

[VanBuren]

I don't think you learn about her indifference to killing until after you have her on board. She also doesn't seem to enjoy killing so much as she sees it as the fastest and easiest way out of a problem and to help keep the problem from coming back.

"Every time I kill someone, the odds of my survival go up" or something like that.


Yes, you know she has killed people... but how many people do you work with that aren't regularly killing people? Mordin is responsible for a whole lot more deaths, Thane is an assassin, Archangel/Garrus isn't mentioned in the lead up to meeting him outside of the context of killing a lot of people. In fact, and almost ironically, the only person you recruit that isn't a killer is Grunt (though it was only a matter of him not having been "born" yet).

Well, Tali (do Geth count?). Kasumi too, probably.

But good point.

[Giggling Ghast]

Every single last one of those people could go the rest of the days without killing another person. Morinth MUST kill to feed her addiction. And unlike Morinth, they're at least a little discerning with their targets.

[BRC]

Would this be the same Samara who was going to break her way out of jail in 24 hours if you don't finish her recruitment mission and take out (or kill as the one cop suggests) any cops in her way? :smallconfused: Samara isn't a paladin (to put it in D&D terms) She's more like a Knight Templar (to put it in TVTropes terms).

So she's crazy, let's look at the rest of your party.

Miranda and Jacob could be considered Terrorists for working for Ceberus (of course, that depends on how you see ceberus).
Mordin worked on a bioweapon, and while he has mixed feelings about it's use, certainly looks back at making it with fond memories.
Garrus is Rorschach with a sniper rifle.
Thane is a former assassin who, despite being repentant, dosn't have a problem with using his skills to clean up a personal vendetta (What he's doing when you meet him) and join up with you.
Jack is crazy and violent.
Grunt, see above.
Zaheed is, well, Zaheed. And you get the impression that his only beef with the Blue Suns is that he's not in charge anymore.


And anyway, nobody is saying Samara is a paragon of goodness. She's crazy, just very predictably so. The debate here is whether or not she's better than Morinth.

[Joran]

Maybe FemShep will be able to romance Tali in ME3. Still has the weird "little sister" vibe, but I imagine a lot of fans would be happy with it.

I felt like Liara also had the little sister vibe in ME1. Despite the massive age difference, Liara has much less life experience than Shepard does. It's sort of like a person in his mid-30's dating a college graduate.

[VanBuren]

I felt like Liara also had the little sister vibe in ME1. Despite the massive age difference, Liara has much less life experience than Shepard does. It's sort of like a person in his mid-30's dating a college graduate.

Only Shep was only in his late 20s during the first Mass Effect.

[Joran]

Only Shep was only in his late 20s during the first Mass Effect.

In terms of life experience, my Shepard's already lost her entire unit on Akuze and seen her parents and the rest of her colony taken by slavers... Oh and promoted to the elite of the elite military unit in the galaxy.

Liara definitely is much more naive and wide-eyed than Shepard is; although she probably has been exploring the galaxy for longer than Shepard (and definitely Tali) has.

But color me surprised about how young Shepard is, but I shouldn't be. Military people tend to be much more mature for their ages, especially if they enlist by 18.

[VanBuren]

In terms of life experience, my Shepard's already lost her entire unit on Akuze and seen her parents and the rest of her colony taken by slavers... Oh and promoted to the elite of the elite military unit in the galaxy.

Liara definitely is much more naive and wide-eyed than Shepard is; although she probably has been exploring the galaxy for longer than Shepard (and definitely Tali) has.

But color me surprised about how young Shepard is, but I shouldn't be. Military people tend to be much more mature for their ages, especially if they enlist by 18.

28 specifically, so he's 30 by the time ME2 picks up.

Er... maybe not. How do we count those two years anyway?

[Esser-Z]

For that matter, what did the regrowth and addition of cybernetics do, age/lifespan wise? I mean, it's an adult body, but basically everything had to be replaced...

[Zorg]

In terms of life experience, my Shepard's already lost her entire unit on Akuze and seen her parents and the rest of her colony taken by slavers... Oh and promoted to the elite of the elite military unit in the galaxy.

Liara definitely is much more naive and wide-eyed than Shepard is; although she probably has been exploring the galaxy for longer than Shepard (and definitely Tali) has.


That's the great thing about the game, that we can still give it our own personal twists (and that's something we can all agree on I hope). For instance, my 'main' char - Shep Shepard - is an earthborn war hero. She grew up in the slums as a petty criminal (and thus is an expert at hacking, beating face and generally being a wise-ass), but joined the army as her only way out.
She is the sterotypical "Si vis pacem, para bellum" soldier - violence is a last resort, but if you make me angry, I'll break out the green body paint and purple pants and end you and everyone you know (like on Elysium).

Thus, I solve every encounter that can be without combat, and encourage peace where I can (ie Geth / Quarian cease-fire). For Shep it is Liara's innocence that is attractive - she is naive and wide-eyed to be sure, but that also means she's caring, compassionate and optimistic. Conversely she isn't cynical, pessimistic or the like. Sort of a "wouldn't the world be a better place if we were all like that?" thing.
Also Liara gives Shep something other than the army/violence in her life which she's never had (unlike Kaiden [army], Garrus [non-stop vigilante 'justice'], Jacob [army/member of terrorist group] or Thane [professional killer]), so I'm hoping there is the retiring to "marriage, old age and lots of blue babies" option available at the end of ME3 :smallbiggrin:



But color me surprised about how young Shepard is, but I shouldn't be. Military people tend to be much more mature for their ages, especially if they enlist by 18.


For that matter, what did the regrowth and addition of cybernetics do, age/lifespan wise? I mean, it's an adult body, but basically everything had to be replaced...

Well, according to the background humans are already living to up to 150, so I'd imagine Shepard has a few more years left in him/her. The cybernetics would probably require fairly regular servicing of some sort (maybe kept in shape through nanotech autorepairing?), but otherwise I don't think it'd affect Shepard's lifespan too much either way.

I got the impression from the cut-scene that they repaired most of Shepard than replacing bits (at least organs), so given the truly heroic intake of alcohol possible in ME2, this could be bad news for Shep's liver...



And speaking of cut-scenes, in the opening one is that Kelly giving the Illusive Man the data-pad while he's talking to Miranda? Could just be a generic Cerberus operative, but I noticed it and made me a bit suss about her - she was hand picked by the Ill Man after all....

[Esser-Z]

I got the impression from the cut-scene that they repaired most of Shepard than replacing bits (at least organs), so given the truly heroic intake of alcohol possible in ME2, this could be bad news for Shep's liver...

But then the speed with which Shepard sobers up suggests a superliver. :smallwink:

As for personal main Shepards, mine's Spacer/War Hero. As a wee lass, she saw a lot of strife and so forth, what with living on Alliance ships. Decided to try to do something about it. Prefers peaceful resolution if possible (and she's a very good talker) but sometimes you just need to blow up the arrogant Krogan leader. Post Elysium, she doesn't like going without at least a sidearm. Having to hold off an army while on leave kinda does that to a person.

Like Zorg's, Liara's innocence and associated qualities are very much a positive feature. Also she might have a thing for Asari. Most of her previous relationships have probably been brief or with other soldiers; Liara's different. Thus the very strong concern, bordering on anger, in ME2 and LotSB. She's worried Liara's becoming something else (because of her, no less).

The "marriage, old age and lots of blue babies" ending would be quite fitting, though I don't see her completely retiring easily--perhaps something more along the lines of Septimus' "you might make a good general yourself some day".

I'd also like to get to introduce Liara to mom, sometime.


(And also Shepard builds model kits in her downtime.)




And speaking of cut-scenes, in the opening one is that Kelly giving the Illusive Man the data-pad while he's talking to Miranda? Could just be a generic Cerberus operative, but I noticed it and made me a bit suss about her - she was hand picked by the Ill Man after all....

Given LotSB? He's probably in the process of seducing her. :smalltongue:

[BRC]

And speaking of cut-scenes, in the opening one is that Kelly giving the Illusive Man the data-pad while he's talking to Miranda? Could just be a generic Cerberus operative, but I noticed it and made me a bit suss about her - she was hand picked by the Ill Man after all....
Clearly, Ceberus clones Kelly's by the dozen. What evidence do I have? Her last name, Chambers. She was born from cloning chambers in a Cerberus facility, and is named appropriately.

And speaking of Cerberus, for a criminal organization they certainly plaster their symbol all over their facilities, uniforms, and ships. Unless it's a "Everybody knows, but nobody can prove" thing (Which seems unlikely), a little discretion seems like it would be a good idea.

[Joran]

Clearly, Ceberus clones Kelly's by the dozen. What evidence do I have? Her last name, Chambers. She was born from cloning chambers in a Cerberus facility, and is named appropriately.

And speaking of Cerberus, for a criminal organization they certainly plaster their symbol all over their facilities, uniforms, and ships. Unless it's a "Everybody knows, but nobody can prove" thing (Which seems unlikely), a little discretion seems like it would be a good idea.

Well, I was thinking the same thing with Shepard. Everywhere I went, people knew who I was. I was the worst covert operative since James Bond ;)

P.S.
That's the great thing about the game, that we can still give it our own personal twists (and that's something we can all agree on I hope).

Indeed. Slipping into the persona of Shepard in Mass Effect 2 was very comforting. I'm somewhat annoyed about the default Shepard that they select for all the promotional materials, but I guess they needed a face they could sell.

[mangosta71]

Every single last one of those people could go the rest of the days without killing another person. Morinth MUST kill to feed her addiction. And unlike Morinth, they're at least a little discerning with their targets.
Did you miss the entire quest? Morinth is extremely discerning when she's picking a target. :smalltongue:

In seriousness, Morinth's killing doesn't strike me as addictive, or even compulsive, behavior. She's too well-controlled. An addict getting a fix is sloppy.

Well, according to the background humans are already living to up to 150, so I'd imagine Shepard has a few more years left in him/her. The cybernetics would probably require fairly regular servicing of some sort (maybe kept in shape through nanotech autorepairing?), but otherwise I don't think it'd affect Shepard's lifespan too much either way.
There's a very real chance that Shepard's nervous system isn't going to last as long as it normally would due to the cybernetics. I don't think we're ever told what toll they exact on the body.

As for the Morinth and Jack comparisons... I'm trying to remember how much you actually know about Jack before getting her on your crew. You know she is a very powerful biotic, she is dangerous, and she is currently in prison. In going to pick her up you quickly learn that the prison is a lot of things, and legitimate isn't high on the list.
Everything you know about Morinth is secondhand. I mean, I realize that nobody in ME has ever been mistaken (or deliberately lied to you) before, so I'm sure that when you have a single source telling you about how awful someone is you should automatically assume she's completely correct on all counts...

[VanBuren]

Did you miss the entire quest? Morinth is extremely discerning when she's picking a target. :smalltongue:

In seriousness, Morinth's killing doesn't strike me as addictive, or even compulsive, behavior. She's too well-controlled. An addict getting a fix is sloppy.

Again though, we have Samara telling us that it's a compulsive thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Morinth has occasionally broken her cover a few times in the 400 years.


Everything you know about Morinth is secondhand. I mean, I realize that nobody in ME has ever been mistaken (or deliberately lied to you) before, so I'm sure that when you have a single source telling you about how awful someone is you should automatically assume she's completely correct on all counts...

Secondhand... from her mother, who's been tracking her for 4 centuries. Frankly, as far as secondary sources go, it's a pretty good one.

[Name_Here]

A) They usually do make characters redeemable or damnable in some fashion or the other. B) That was moreso a complaint that you can't do anything with Morinth besides get yourself killed. No elaboration on back story, no try to convince her what she's doing is wrong, no anything really.

There are a ton of evil characters who you never redeem. From Baldur's gate Monterion, Xzar, Edwin, Shar-Teel, Eldoth, Korgan Hell you can't even really redeem Viconia she remains an evil person even if you fall in love with her.

From Kotor you can never redeem HK-47 or Candorous.

Morrigan and Sten from Dragon's Age: origins remain evil to their core despite all they went through with the player.

From Mass Effect 2 you can't convince Zaheed to retire or start taking better jobs, nor can you talk Kasumi into going legit.

There are always iredeemably evil characters in every Bioware game. The fact that they are there doesn't mean that they are poor writers. It means that some beliefs can't be fixed with a couple choice Dialogue tree


Would this be the same Samara who was going to break her way out of jail in 24 hours if you don't finish her recruitment mission and take out (or kill as the one cop suggests) any cops in her way? :smallconfused: Samara isn't a paladin (to put it in D&D terms) She's more like a Knight Templar (to put it in TVTropes terms).

You did understand that the police had no reason to arrest Samara and was only doing so because her corrupt superiors ordered her to do it right? There is nothing evil about killing corrupt cops standing in the way of your quest so I'm wondering why you would think that incident would make her not a paladin.

[BRC]

Well, I was thinking the same thing with Shepard. Every where I went, people knew who I was. I was the worst covert operative since James Bond ;)
Well, Shepard was a minor celebrity (First human spectre) before he/she saved the citadel. Shepard's face was probably plastered over every news screen in the galaxy, almost everybody should be able to recognize Shepard on sight.
Except, apparently, the arms dealer types in Kasumi's DLC, who are perfectly willing to buy that you're some random mercenary leader.
As for how some people know you've come back, I'd chalk that up to TiM's meddling. Shepard isn't nearly as useful if nobody believes he/she is actually Shepard. TiM probably started seeding rumors of Shepard's return some time ago, and sent out some more official notifications to certain people, for example, Anderson, or Aria (who seemed to know who you were the moment you stepped onto Omega, and actually had people waiting for you if I remember correctly). TiM probably told her (Or let her find out) that you were coming so as to make things easier while you were on Omega.

Of course, if you are a galactic celebrity, then why dosn't everybody greet you with "OMG IT'S SHEPARD!" Even on the citadel the best you get is a "HEY! It's shepard! If you endorse my shop I'll charge you slightly less!"

Maybe the whole Citadel incident has been kind of played out in the last two years, so now everybody knows you as "That guy/girl who did something a few years back".

Also, Concerning Samara and Morinth: If I remember correctly, Samara became a Justicar in order to hunt down Morinth. So either swearing herself to an unwavering code and dedicating her life to hunting down criminals (especially her daughter) is her idea of fun, or Morinth must be seriously bad news.


Edit: as for Arresting Samara, the superiors didn't give that order for lulz, they were trying to avoid an interplanetary incident. In Asari society justicars wandering around killing people when they deem it necessary is just how things work, and any Asari would understand that. They were worried about Samara starting an interspecies incident.

The way they see it, if they let her wander around, and she kills a human, or a salarian, or anything that isn't an Asari, they either have to throw her in prison or hope the rest of the galaxy is really understanding about the whole "Justicar" thing. "She Killed me brother! Do Somthing!" "Nope, she's a justicar. We just let them do whatever they want"

And considering Illium is Omega with taste, it wouldn't be long before she found somebody her code says she should kill.

[Esser-Z]

Except, apparently, the arms dealer types in Kasumi's DLC, who are perfectly willing to buy that you're some random mercenary leader.

Clearly, he was sent faked video of you dancing. And since Shepard can't dance...

It's also quite possible that Shepard had additional makeup and soforth to disguise herself, and a different hairstyle, that Bioware didn't bother showing. I'd go with that.


As for knowing about your return, recall that Cerberus isn't leak proof--the Shadow Broker, at least, has inside data. And Chakwas and Joker's joining might have lead to some leakage.



Morrigan and Sten from Dragon's Age: origins remain evil to their core despite all they went through with the player.

Sten? Really? I think that's more a case of totally different values than evil.


There is nothing evil about killing corrupt cops standing in the way of your quest
"You're being paid under the table. That makes you mercenaries. I can kill mercenaries."

[Avilan the Grey]

And speaking of Cerberus, for a criminal organization they certainly plaster their symbol all over their facilities, uniforms, and ships. Unless it's a "Everybody knows, but nobody can prove" thing (Which seems unlikely), a little discretion seems like it would be a good idea.

AFAIR, that is not Cerberus symbol, it's a symbol of one of their companies, a legit front. Jack recognizes it because she makes sure to keep track of Cerberus in a "now it's personal" kind of way. Nobody else recognize the symbol as "Cerberus".



Would this be the same Samara who was going to break her way out of jail in 24 hours if you don't finish her recruitment mission and take out (or kill as the one cop suggests) any cops in her way? :smallconfused: Samara isn't a paladin (to put it in D&D terms) She's more like a Knight Templar (to put it in TVTropes terms).t.

Actually she is a paladin; it's just that she doesn't follow the same morality system as D&D (or IRL western democracies). She has the legal right, and obligation according to Asari law, to do what you describe.



Hell you can't even really redeem Viconia she remains an evil person even if you fall in love with her.

...

Morrigan and Sten from Dragon's Age: origins remain evil to their core despite all they went through with the player.

Nitpick 1: If you play the expansion, Viconia moves from Evil to Neutral if you romance her.

Nitpick 2: I do not see Morrigan nor Sten as evil. Especially not since they don't exist in a D&D world.
Neither of them are nice people, but they are not Evil with a capital E.

[Derthric]

Morrigan and Sten from Dragon's Age: origins remain evil to their core despite all they went through with the player.


If anyone is evil its that damnable dog or the Golem. either slobbering all over some poor person's cake it just stole, and marking random "landmarks tree" in the already festering hellhole that is the alienage. Or stomping around muttering about killing birds, actually killing birds and wanting to kill all humaniods, yeah real nice.

I kid, I kid.

But back to ME, since some have brought up the writing in the games, I have to say I felt a bit more railroaded in ME2 than in the first game. Of course the trade off was more tightly spun missions and such but I felt the world and my course more open in the first game. I think this has to do with the nature of the missions, ME has alot more mystery so it felt more like everything was a new place to explore. ME2 it was all just obstacles in the way of stopping the collector threat. Even the team interactions on the ship seem less deep, the stories you pried from them in the first game were more engaging to the character I felt, in ME2 it was more like lets shoot the **** with old war stories.

This is more of an observation than a real criticism though, loved both games.

[chiasaur11]

Hey, perfect job for Grunt once he settles down, then, since he's got the knowledge of a whole pile of Krogan warlords stuck in his head.

Up next, counting Warlord Granth style...

One! One dead Turian!

Two! Two dead Turians! Hahahahaha!

[Jeivar]

Well, I played Lair of the Shadow Broker the day after it was released, but am only now getting around to commenting on it.

I LOVE IT! Better than most of the in-game missions. Bioware really went all out. Here are just some of my thoughts on it:


*The Broker himself was quite interesting. Far more so than just some crooked Asari or Turian. I was slightly disappointed at first when it seemed he was just some little fat buy behind a desk . . . But then he stood up.:smalleek:
It's fun to see a huge, musclebound monstrosity that's also an articulate genius. The fight with him was also nicely different from the others, what with that shield of his.

*Liara's characterization was very well handled; Still basically the decent person we know, but has been through too much to remain unchanged. Feels very real.

*The firefights were broken up into several interesting settings, the fight with the Asari assassin was nicely unique, and the car chase was fun without overstaying its welcome. I just adored the banter between Shep and Liara. "Remember when you could just slap omni-gel on everything?" "Truck!" "Don't give the mercs ideas!". :smallbiggrin:

*The Broker's archives gave a interesting look at the party members and various other characters. Zaeed's was damn funny and Samara's was really sad and poignant. That poor ruined family.
Anderson's expense list was also kind of somber; Painting a picture of a man burdened with a terrible truth that the world at large refuses to acknowledge, getting drunk and smashing up his home. Damn.

*The videos. Most were funny as heck. And apparently Aethyta may very well be Liara's father! I kind of suspected it after her "had a pureblood daughter" comment, but decided I was reading too much into it. I wonder how/if this will play out in Mass Effect 3. Would meeting her "father" have any significance for Liara?
Oh, and how do I view multiple videos of the same person? I've done ALL the other missions, except for Overlord, which I haven't bought. What triggers more videos?

*Continuing the romance. Definitely my favorite part of the DLC, and LEAGUES above most game romances because it just feels so real. Two years apart is a big hurdle to overcome, but it CAN be overcome. And I really liked Liara coaxing out a glimpse of Shepard's human side.
I hope they have a similar thing planned for Ashley.

My ONLY complaint is that there was no dialogue between Liara and Garrus/Tali. I would have liked SOME acknowledgment of the good ole days.

Also I'm slightly concerned over how they're going to work the ending of LotSB into Mass Effect 3. I mean, the ending and Liara herself deserve a proper role in the series finale, but it IS a DLC. How are they going to create a good "default"? Liara having access to all the Broker's resources is a major deal, but non-DLC players would find "Oh yeah, I became the new Shadow Broker while you were away" kind of weird without a good explanation.



It says a lot about ME2 that I'm actually trying to cut back on playing it just so I don't get sick of it . . . But have to force myself to play all the way through Dragon Age, mostly so I can transport the save into the probably superior Dragon Age 2. ME2 combat is intense and FUN rather than a repetitive chore, and Shepard never had to trudge back and forth through Orzammar and the Deep Roads or put up with Morrigan.

[Esser-Z]

Oh, and how do I view multiple videos of the same person? I've done ALL the other missions, except for Overlord, which I haven't bought. What triggers more videos?

Going out and doing a mission, then coming back, I'm pretty sure.

[Cristo Meyers]

...Garrus [non-stop vigilante 'justice']...

Actually I kinda liked Garrus' romance the most so far. Maybe it's just that the character I was playing for that one was so like him (generally trying to do good but just really making a mess of things in doing so), but it honestly came of as a good mix of funny and sweet.


One! One dead Turian!

Two! Two dead Turians! Hahahahaha!

Ohhhh, it's a beautiful day on the battle-field, a beautiful day on the battle-field...

Kinda gives the urban myth that Mr. Rogers was a Marine sniper a new colour.

[thegurullamen]

*The videos. Most were funny as heck. And apparently Aethyta may very well be Liara's father! I kind of suspected it after her "had a pureblood daughter" comment, but decided I was reading too much into it. I wonder how/if this will play out in Mass Effect 3. Would meeting her "father" have any significance for Liara?

The funniest thing about that to me is that one of (if not the) most respected asari matriarchs got down and dirty with a bartender. Sure, she's an unreasonably disgraced bartender, but a bartender nonetheless.

And in all actuality, I wonder if their relationship had anything to do with that suggestion that got her disgraced in the first place. Interesting.



Also I'm slightly concerned over how they're going to work the ending of LotSB into Mass Effect 3. I mean, the ending and Liara herself deserve a proper role in the series finale, but it IS a DLC. How are they going to create a good "default"? Liara having access to all the Broker's resources is a major deal, but non-DLC players would find "Oh yeah, I became the new Shadow Broker while you were away" kind of weird without a good explanation.

Not really. They handled Liara's original encounter that way, where she went from awkward archaeologist geek to badass info mafioso extraordinaire. If you didn't pick up the DLC, I imagine you'll get an e-mail from her saying to meet her, where she'll recount the whole thing to you. Or enough parts to act as an advertisement.

[Zevox]

Secondhand... from her mother, who's been tracking her for 4 centuries. Frankly, as far as secondary sources go, it's a pretty good one.
Plus once you do meet Morinth she certainly acts precisely as Samara told you she would. And the dead girl who was her last victim provides some pretty immediate, solid evidence that Samara's information was quite accurate even before you meet Morinth.

Zevox

[742]

incoming semi-coherent rant about the chainmail-bikini(well technically nudity-spacesuit) effect in the second game

so this bugs the **** out of me every time i play through the mass effect games

the first one is relatively hard scifi*, and they softened it for the second game. i dont particularly like it, but they did it with a thorough beating from the film noir stick and made their writers work just a touch harder so it wasnt a big issue. its not a huge deal on its own but the game world and some of the characters still carrying over made it a little jarring

except for one thing im forgiving of wackiness. i dont care that they went from hard scifi to including a mission where you go succubus hunting in just one game. but the character that is literally half naked jumping out of a spaceship and into another spaceship** strikes me as absolutely ridiculous, and absolutely breaks what was otherwise a great atmospheric thing

*for a video game
**and having as many hit points as one of the characters who wears big bulky space-armor

[Esser-Z]

Note who the mostly-naked character was. An incredibly powerful biotic. She doesn't NEED to cover her skin!


(Mordin has no excuses with his face, though)

[chiasaur11]

Note who the mostly-naked character was. An incredibly powerful biotic. She doesn't NEED to cover her skin!


(Mordin has no excuses with his face, though)

His excuse is being Mordin Solus.

And that's good enough for me.

[Esser-Z]

I accept this.

[Philistine]

Everything you know about Morinth is secondhand. I mean, I realize that nobody in ME has ever been mistaken (or deliberately lied to you) before, so I'm sure that when you have a single source telling you about how awful someone is you should automatically assume she's completely correct on all counts...
There's also the way nearly every Asari in the game gets the heebie-jeebies at the mere mention of the name, Ardat-Yakshi. That might be construed as 'a clue.' :smallamused:


ME2 combat is intense and FUN rather than a repetitive chore...
Seriously? ME combat is just dumbed-down shooter schtick - especially with the addition of heatsink "ammo" in the second game. I find DA:O combat to be much the more interesting of the two, tactically.

[Avilan the Grey]

but the character that is literally half naked jumping out of a spaceship and into another spaceship** strikes me as absolutely ridiculous, and absolutely breaks what was otherwise a great atmospheric thing

I don't understand what the problem is; the Collector ship has a mass-effect field surrounding it so that it keeps an atmosphere.
I think you somehow has mistaken breather masks (worn because of toxic / too thin atmosphere) with actual space suits. Shepard uses the N7 breather helmet, because she has it.

There is AFAIK only two times you are in a place that both has vacuum AND is too cold. The intro movie, when you walk across the broken part of the Normandy, and when you visit the Normandy crash site. Both times you are in your breather helmet, full armor and are alone; nobody walking along with you with bare skin and an oxygen mask.

All other places are perfectly okay with just a breather mask. Vacuum in itself will not kill you if it is warm and you have a mask.


(Mordin has no excuses with his face, though)

???

In my game Mordin has a full helmet, with transparent visor, when in those situations.

[Jeivar]

I find DA:O combat to be much the more interesting of the two, tactically.

There's. SO. Much. Of. It. Endless lines of identical, mute Darkspawn with no personality.
Besides, ME puts you in direct control of the main character and their actions, which is far more immersive. MMO-style combat has always bored me.

[Lord of the Helms]

I don't understand what the problem is; the Collector ship has a mass-effect field surrounding it so that it keeps an atmosphere.
I think you somehow has mistaken breather masks (worn because of toxic / too thin atmosphere) with actual space suits. Shepard uses the N7 breather helmet, because she has it.

There is AFAIK only two times you are in a place that both has vacuum AND is too cold. The intro movie, when you walk across the broken part of the Normandy, and when you visit the Normandy crash site.

All other places are perfectly okay with just a breather mask. Vacuum in itself will not kill you if it is warm and you have a mask.


Actually, vacuum itself is very hard to make too cold, since it has pretty much no convection to speak of (notice how touching wood or plastic at -30 degrees is a lot less painfully cold than touching metal at -30 degrees? Think like that, but way more so). The pressure, on the other hand, would at the very least be very uncomfortable, and I'm not actually sure if exposed eyes can withstand vacuum without issues. Also, for communications purposes, I imagine your ears should be covered, unless your receiver is directly on your eardrum (and I have no idea if that would be good for your ear).


There's. SO. Much. Of. It. Endless lines of identical, mute Darkspawn with no personality.
Besides, ME puts you in direct control of the main character and their actions, which is far more immersive. MMO-style combat has always bored me.

Ah, the kids of today. Don't even remember that that style of combat was typical for real time strategy and tactics games (also round based strategy games, except that they, well, weren't real time) as well as point-and-click single player RPGs long before MMORPGs made it big :smalltongue:. Which is beside the point, really - they both offer a different gaming experience that is very nice in its own way and senseless to argue about what's better - Mass Effect, Gothic, Jade Empire or Vampire Bloodlines-type fighting is more action-y and depends on reflexes, while the Baldur's Gate / KOTOR/ Neverwinter Nights 2/ Drakensang/ Dragon Age-style is offers you far greater tactical depth and effective control over an entire group of combatants.

And psssst, the Geth, Merc Mooks and Mechs in Mass Effect don't have all that much in the way of personality to speak of. Which is not a bad thing - tons of soulless enemies to slaughter through are what make these games great! :smallbiggrin:

[Avilan the Grey]

Actually, vacuum itself is very hard to make too cold, since it has pretty much no convection to speak of (notice how touching wood or plastic at -30 degrees is a lot less painfully cold than touching metal at -30 degrees? Think like that, but way more so). The pressure, on the other hand, would at the very least be very uncomfortable, and I'm not actually sure if exposed eyes can withstand vacuum without issues. Also, for communications purposes, I imagine your ears should be covered, unless your receiver is directly on your eardrum (and I have no idea if that would be good for your ear).

Well on the Normandy in the intro you a are at absolute zero, give or take a few degrees. On the Normandy crash site it is cold enough to snow and probably too cold for most life forms (since it is one of very few planets you visit without some kind of "scenic life forms", so I would not want to walk around wearing only a strap-bra.

As for vacuum as such... the last I read was something about the opposite, that people get it wrong because of movies and games, and that the human body can survive without damage in vacuum for quite a while. The big probem is no protection from radiation (solar flares, etc) and the cold of space.


There's. SO. Much. Of. It. Endless lines of identical, mute Darkspawn with no personality.
Besides, ME puts you in direct control of the main character and their actions, which is far more immersive. MMO-style combat has always bored me.

I love both. The big problem with DA:O is the deep roads, where you spend FOREVER fighting identical foes. But other than that it is very entertaining. It is a different system but equally good.

[Philistine]

There's. SO. Much. Of. It. Endless lines of identical, mute Darkspawn with no personality.
Besides, ME puts you in direct control of the main character and their actions, which is far more immersive. MMO-style combat has always bored me.

I find that basing character outcomes on player twitchskill to be highly immersion-breaking, personally.

"I'm Commander Shepard, Memetic Badass! I was killed, and it only made me angrier when I came back! I've personally killed more people than you have met in your entire life! I headbutt krogan when I get pissed off - and the krogan back down! I'm the roughest, toughest, rootin-tootinest, deadliest gun/biotic/tech slinger in Known Space... Except, oops, now I'm dead because some dimwit forgot to set his mouse sensitivity back to normal."

[Zevox]

Seriously? ME combat is just dumbed-down shooter schtick - especially with the addition of heatsink "ammo" in the second game.
Not that I don't think ME is too shootery, but if you play a class other than Soldier, you do at least get a number of good magic biotic and/or tech powers to throw around the battlefield, which is much nicer than just shooting stuff.

Zevox

[Lord of the Helms]

Well on the Normandy in the intro you a are at absolute zero, give or take a few degrees. On the Normandy crash site it is cold enough to snow and probably too cold for most life forms (since it is one of very few planets you visit without some kind of "scenic life forms", so I would not want to walk around wearing only a strap-bra.

As for vacuum as such... the last I read was something about the opposite, that people get it wrong because of movies and games, and that the human body can survive without damage in vacuum for quite a while. The big probem is no protection from radiation (solar flares, etc) and the cold of space.

Radiation is indeed an issue, but cold isn't really. At all. You get cold from losing heat to your surroundings, and in the almost-vacuum of space, there is nothing you can actually lose heat to, other than by radiating it away and by evaporation from the skin (and once you are getting cooler, your skin doesn't perspire nearly as much). You will cool down in absolute zero eventually, but in space, "eventually" can be quite a long time. The pressure doesn't have dramatic effects as some movies show it, but it's definitely not good for you, and I'm pretty sure the fragile and poorly protected blood vessels in your eyes are especially vulnerable. It depends on how fast you change pressure - it you were to go from 1 ATM to vacuum almost immediately, then you could take some serious harm.

Either way, in an actual vacuum, not wearing a spacesuit isn't instadeath, but it's hardly good for you either.

*And, by the way, the Normandy Crash site can't have been in a vacuum. Kinda hard to have snowfall without an atmosphere :smallwink:

[Avilan the Grey]

*And, by the way, the Normandy Crash site can't have been in a vacuum. Kinda hard to have snowfall without an atmosphere :smallwink:

Well I never said it was, I hope. It is however too cold for anyone wearing only a breather mask and not full armor and head cover.

[Derthric]

I still think the breather mask thing was a cop out, wouldn't the possibility of simple allergic reactions to various microbes and toxin's in the radically hostile environs you encounter ruin Miranda's perfect complexion? Wouldn't she want to prevent that? I mean at least give her sunglasses on tuchanka the whipping sand would make her squint and possibly damage a cornea.

Maybe they thought we wouldn't recognize the Australian in the skin tight spandex without seeing her face or something. We had more than one of those on the ship so I could see how it would be confusing........right?

[Esser-Z]

???

In my game Mordin has a full helmet, with transparent visor, when in those situations.

Does he? It's been awhile since I last used him. Been on an Old Times Tali/Garrus kick.




Besides, ME puts you in direct control of the main character and their actions, which is far more immersive. MMO-style combat has always bored me.

"MMO Style"? That's a weird term, seeing as--oh, LotH covered that.



I AM generally annoyed by the outside outfits for the other characters. I really liked how ME1 had everybody actually wear full armor. And then ME2 rolls around...

[Name_Here]

I find that basing character outcomes on player twitchskill to be highly immersion-breaking, personally.

"I'm Commander Shepard, Memetic Badass! I was killed, and it only made me angrier when I came back! I've personally killed more people than you have met in your entire life! I headbutt krogan when I get pissed off - and the krogan back down! I'm the roughest, toughest, rootin-tootinest, deadliest gun/biotic/tech slinger in Known Space... Except, oops, now I'm dead because some dimwit forgot to set his mouse sensitivity back to normal."

DOA didn't depend on twitchskill? Half the time the only thing standing between my tank up and fighting and him dieing was how fast I could force feed him Poultices.

[Blayze]

Except, oops, now I'm dead because some dimwit forgot to set his mouse sensitivity back to normal."

Or in my case it was Damn You Muscle Memory (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DamnYouMuscleMemory), causing Commander Murder Shepard to charge headfirst into a hail of bullets at the start of the game.

[Esser-Z]

Oh, maker1, the button swap. Throws one off with regards to ME1 and basically every shooter ever.


On a different note, have I mentioned that I'd love for Spacers to be able to have LI meet Mom in ME3? I love that, for once, the hero gets to have a parent still alive. And even call them! The inability to toss Hannah a message in ME2 saddens me.


1Totally legitimate thing to say in the ME verse--remember the scientist in ME1.

[Lord of the Helms]

Dio bless the ability to configure the controls yourself :smallwink:

Seriously, that's the first thing I did when I started ME2 right after the first. Meaning Muscle memory is awesome :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

DOA didn't depend on twitchskill? Half the time the only thing standing between my tank up and fighting and him dieing was how fast I could force feed him Poultices.

Ah, the joy of the console control?

On the PC all the twitching on DA:O you have to do was to be able to pause really quickly.

[Esser-Z]

As for DAO, I enjoy it as well, but it's an entirely different genre of gameplay. I can't really compare them. I'd feel wrong using DA/Baldur's Gate/etc style gameplay in ME. I also admit to playing DA:O on easy. It's a HARD game, even as an Arcane Warrior!

I do note that Shepard's badassery doesn't actually rely on the player's skills. All those times you die, see, don't happen in-universe. Only the successful attempts are canon!


(Unless you're Gordon Freeman. He actually has time-reversal powers like the Discworld Yeti.)

[mangosta71]

There's. SO. Much. Of. It. Endless lines of identical, mute Darkspawn with no personality.
Because there's not a line of identical mooks around every corner in ME2, amirite?

Besides, ME puts you in direct control of the main character and their actions, which is far more immersive. MMO-style combat has always bored me.
I'm...not in direct control of my character in DA:O? I'm not scurrying around the battlefield looking for tasty backs to stab on my rogue? Or challenging every enemy on the field as a warrior? Or picking targets and nuking the crap out of them on my mage?

I think ME would work with DA combat control a lot better than the other way around. Or perhaps a KotOR (or even FO1/2) interface. Or FO3, so you can take a real-time shooter approach if you want to while someone playing a sniper character can pop into VATS for headshots.

[Jeivar]

Ah, the kids of today. Don't even remember that that style of combat was typical for real time strategy and tactics games (also round based strategy games, except that they, well, weren't real time) as well as point-and-click single player RPGs long before MMORPGs made it big :smalltongue:. Which is beside the point, really - they both offer a different gaming experience that is very nice in its own way and senseless to argue about what's better - Mass Effect, Gothic, Jade Empire or Vampire Bloodlines-type fighting is more action-y and depends on reflexes, while the Baldur's Gate / KOTOR/ Neverwinter Nights 2/ Drakensang/ Dragon Age-style is offers you far greater tactical depth and effective control over an entire group of combatants.

I'm 27 and I remember just fine. It's just that I'm completely sick of it. I don't feel connected to my character when they act like crude remote-controlled robots, stiffly hacking away until I press a button that makes them pull a Special Move.


And psssst, the Geth, Merc Mooks and Mechs in Mass Effect don't have all that much in the way of personality to speak of. Which is not a bad thing - tons of soulless enemies to slaughter through are what make these games great! :smallbiggrin:

The mercs at least could talk, and sometimes even within dialogue trees. The Geth obviously didn't, which is why I'm glad they had a much smaller presence in ME2.

[Zorg]

Ah, the kids of today. Don't even remember that that style of combat was typical for real time strategy and tactics games (also round based strategy games, except that they, well, weren't real time) as well as point-and-click single player RPGs long before MMORPGs made it big :smalltongue:.

"I wish they still made roleplaying games like they used to. These days it's all big choices and visceral combat. I miss those old games where you had to remember to drink water, and it took five hours to fly somewhere."



I AM generally annoyed by the outside outfits for the other characters. I really liked how ME1 had everybody actually wear full armor. And then ME2 rolls around...

While the armour in ME1 was good, I didn't like that it kept changing their look all the time. Also some of the suits were seriously ugly - Kaiden and Tali spent half of one play through looking like a pair of giant bananas.



On a different note, have I mentioned that I'd love for Spacers to be able to have LI meet Mom in ME3? I love that, for once, the hero gets to have a parent still alive. And even call them! The inability to toss Hannah a message in ME2 saddens me.

I'd like the backgrounds to have more impact personally - they had none in ME2, which was a bummer. I'd like each to have a special bit like in ME1: Earthborn gets to go to Earth (break up/support the Reds), Colonists and Spacers gets to met Mum at 'home' to help her / introduce romance etc. Maybe even have one be you get to meet Admiral Hackett in person.

[Name_Here]

Ah, the joy of the console control?

On the PC all the twitching on DA:O you have to do was to be able to pause really quickly.

You could still pause the game on console. Didn't really help when tanks can go from full health to dead in a handful of hits and you could only feed him one poultice at a time.

[Joran]

I'd like the backgrounds to have more impact personally - they had none in ME2, which was a bummer. I'd like each to have a special bit like in ME1: Earthborn gets to go to Earth (break up/support the Reds), Colonists and Spacers gets to met Mum at 'home' to help her / introduce romance etc. Maybe even have one be you get to meet Admiral Hackett in person.

I'm pretty sure as a Colonist, your entire family was slaughtered in a slaver attack at 16.

Here's my idea for a Colonist mission:

After the Batarian slaver attack, the Alliance gave up on colonization plans for the planet, judging it too much of a security risk Batarians ended up colonizing the planet.

Fifteen years later, Cerebrus gets information about Prothean ruins discovered on the planet with ties to the Reapers. Your mission is to go and retrieve the information. It'd be interesting to see your interactions, whether you let the Colonists live in peace or go in with guns ablazing.

P.S. I thought about Talitha, but it's not guaranteed she survives your encounter.

[BRC]

While the armour in ME1 was good, I didn't like that it kept changing their look all the time. Also some of the suits were seriously ugly - Kaiden and Tali spent half of one play through looking like a pair of giant bananas.

The ME1 system did result in lots of ugly armor (Especially that pink one they kept putting ashley in for some reason).

Personally, I think the best solution is to have every character work like Shepard, armor wise. They all have a shipboard outfit and an armored outfit (except those characters in armor all the time). Just give each character one Aesthetically pleasing suit of armor they wear when you go on missions. You know, just to demonstrate that they're not catching bullets with their space-spandex/skin.

[Esser-Z]

While the armour in ME1 was good, I didn't like that it kept changing their look all the time. Also some of the suits were seriously ugly - Kaiden and Tali spent half of one play through looking like a pair of giant bananas.

Yeah. That's a downside. I'd like... Pretty much what the guy above me said!


I'd like the backgrounds to have more impact personally - they had none in ME2, which was a bummer
Well, there was the What Thing Hackett Decreed minor bit and Spacers have mom mentioned in the news, but yeah. 'Twould be nice.

[VanBuren]

Yeah. That's a downside. I'd like... Pretty much what the guy above me said!


Well, there was the What Thing Hackett Decreed minor bit and Spacers have mom mentioned in the news, but yeah. 'Twould be nice.

I really love that bit after playing through a bunch.

Paragon Background -- Hackett: Love and Weddings!

Neutral Background -- Hackett: Never forget!

Renegade Background -- Hackett: *sigh* Let's not press charges...

[Jeivar]

Kinda off topic here, but has Bioware made any mention of what their next DLC will be all about? Apparently there are going to be several to bridge the gap between ME2 and ME3, and I'm hoping we'll get one with Ashley/Kaidan.

[Avilan the Grey]

You could still pause the game on console. Didn't really help when tanks can go from full health to dead in a handful of hits and you could only feed him one poultice at a time.

Try actually configuring the party member's tactics. Auto-heal, auto buff spells etc.

[Avilan the Grey]

just to demonstrate that they're not catching bullets with their space-spandex/skin.

They aren't in ME2 either. They have shields. Except Grunt I think, but he has a very obvious armor.

[VanBuren]

They aren't in ME2 either. They have shields. Except Grunt I think, but he has a very obvious armor.

I think that, with the exception of Grunt, everyone is using either a shield or a biotic barrier to protect themselves.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think that, with the exception of Grunt, everyone is using either a shield or a biotic barrier to protect themselves.

Speaking of Grunt; his special armor has a WICKED helmet. He looks more like an evil robot when wearing it than the Geth.

[Zorg]

I'm pretty sure as a Colonist, your entire family was slaughtered in a slaver attack at 16.

Here's my idea for a Colonist mission:

After the Batarian slaver attack, the Alliance gave up on colonization plans for the planet, judging it too much of a security risk Batarians ended up colonizing the planet.

Fifteen years later, Cerebrus gets information about Prothean ruins discovered on the planet with ties to the Reapers. Your mission is to go and retrieve the information. It'd be interesting to see your interactions, whether you let the Colonists live in peace or go in with guns ablazing.

P.S. I thought about Talitha, but it's not guaranteed she survives your encounter.

Indeed - my main is Earthborn, and the others were fairly indistinct in 2, so they blurred together. Kinda proves my point in a way...

I like the mission idea - coming 'home', but someone else has moved in.



Speaking of Grunt; his special armor has a WICKED helmet. He looks more like an evil robot when wearing it than the Geth.

Agreed, very cool design there.

[Jeivar]

Here's my idea for a Colonist mission:

After the Batarian slaver attack, the Alliance gave up on colonization plans for the planet, judging it too much of a security risk Batarians ended up colonizing the planet.


A news report in ME2 makes it clear that the colony itself survived. They won the right to use Shepard's likeness on their colonial seal.

[BRC]

They aren't in ME2 either. They have shields. Except Grunt I think, but he has a very obvious armor.
Shep has Shields, but he still wears Armor. Your teammates don't go down very quickly when their shields are depleted. Garrus and Zaheed both wear Armor. Tali's suit was armored in the previous game, so it stands to reason that it would still be armored. Lots of enemies run around in armor.

So, clearly Shields haven't made armor obsolete, yet your teammates regularly go into battle without it. Jack I might understand, she may be untrained with combat armor (Not that that stopped Liara), and she hates ceberus/is stubborn enough to refuse a handout from them. She's also got superpowered Biotics, so I'm willing to bet she's using those to protect herself. This would also explain why she's able to plow aside three YMIR's when you unfreeze her, at that point she was angry and totally cutting loose.

However, Samara (your other super-biotic) seems like the practical sort. Unless Justicar's take an oath against protecting their vital organs, you'd think she would use armor on top of her biotics.

Tali's suit is probably armored/reinforced with whatever super-shielding she's been able to tinker up.
If I'm looking for justification, Kasumi and Thane might be excused anyway. Their space-spandex is probably light armor, and since they're both stealthy-types used to unrestricted movement, putting them in big heavy shepard-style armor might do more harm than good.
Garrus never gets around to fixing his armor, but it seems to work fine even with a big gash in it. Maybe Ceberus can't get a good turian armorer to work for them.
The guy who has no excuse whatsoever to go unarmored is Jacob. He's a biotic, but who isn't nowadays, and we have plenty of well-armored biotics in the game (Potentially Shepard, lots of merc bosses, Kaiden and Liara from the first game), so Armor doesn't interfere with Biotics. He's also not a particularly powerful Biotic, he's just a guy who picked up some biotic implants along the way. He was a soldier, which means he would certainly be trained to use armor (assuming it requires much training), and would understand it's value. Yet he runs around in space-spandex same as everybody else.

My point is, nothing says that Shields, Armor, and Biotics are mutually exclusive, so why isn't your team armoring up.

[Esser-Z]

Not that that stopped Liara
I suspect she picked up some basic armor training at some point. The whole alone-in-dangerous-situations thing (Same thing that honed her biotics!) kinda would make that likely.

[Joran]

A news report in ME2 makes it clear that the colony itself survived. They won the right to use Shepard's likeness on their colonial seal.

And I remember that now. Rats. It'd still be nice to go home though.

[mangosta71]

In ME1, you didn't need any sort of training to wear light armor. Infiltrators and vanguards could be trained to wear medium armor (ie, they could unlock it with skill point investiture), and soldiers could be trained to wear heavy, but anyone could wear light. (Of course, in ME1 you didn't have to scrounge for ammo in the middle of a firefight, either.) In ME2, it seems that the armory on the Normandy is capable of replicating weapons to keep the squad supplied - why can't it also replicate armor pieces? Hell, why can't another squadmate wear one of the empty suits of armor hanging in your closet? Imagine being able to outfit your squadmates in matching gear that doesn't have Cerberus insignia plastered all over it. Think about how appropriate that would be in ME3 for a Shepard that blew up the base and had Miranda tell TIM "Screw you. I quit." It sends a clear message that your crew and has broken away from Cerberus to follow you.

[Androgeus]

The inability to toss Hannah a message in ME2 saddens me.

If I remember correctly, I think she does send you some mail. See here (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Hannah_Shepard)

[Esser-Z]

If I remember correctly, I think she does send you some mail. See here (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Hannah_Shepard)

She does, but I don't get to reply. :smalltongue:

[Androgeus]

In ME1, you didn't need any sort of training to wear light armor. Infiltrators and vanguards could be trained to wear medium armor (ie, they could unlock it with skill point investiture), and soldiers could be trained to wear heavy, but anyone could wear light.

hmmm, I think that the light armour usage can still be explained by training for everyone in ME1, it's just more in their back story than actual armour skill.
Shep, Kaidan, Ashley, Garrus and Wrex are all trained from military service. Tali would have been trained for her pilgrimage. Liara is the only one I feel I'd be making too much up.

For Jack in ME2, Could she feel so that her biotics are so good she doesn't need armour? Also Garrus' damaged armour he may be keeping it sentimentally to remind him of his failure to his previous team.


She does, but I don't get to reply. :smalltongue:
Yhea, it would have been better if when you got the Normandy you could have used the comm room to call up your mum, and only get that message if you don't call her.

[BRC]

For Jack in ME2, Could she feel so that her biotics are so good she doesn't need armour? Also Garrus' damaged armour he may be keeping it sentimentally to remind him of his failure to his previous team.

Which would be suicidal overconfidence. Yes her Biotics can protect her, but that dosn't mean an extra layer of armor wouldn't help. TiM would probably be more than happy to provide such armor, and he's certainly got the money for it.

[Androgeus]

Which would be suicidal overconfidence. Yes her Biotics can protect her, but that dosn't mean an extra layer of armor wouldn't help. TiM would probably be more than happy to provide such armor, and he's certainly got the money for it.

I never said she was smart :smalltongue:

[BRC]

I never said she was smart :smalltongue:
As I said above, Jack's the one I could understand. She has both the biotic skill to protect herself, and the mindset to refuse armor.However, the other unarmored characters don't have that excuse.

[Androgeus]

As I said above, Jack's the one I could understand. She has both the biotic skill to protect herself, and the mindset to refuse armor.However, the other unarmored characters don't have that excuse.

The only one that is really inexcusable for me is Miranda's.
Samara's getup may be a justicar thing, however Sheppard should be able to get her armoured up due to her swearing to follow him over the code.
Jacob's looks as though it has some form of padding, if very lightweight.
Kasumi's cameo may be tied to her actual clothing although infiltrators can use cameo in any armours so they suggests it may be more a tech/omni-tool thing. (also she's a thief so freedom of movement stuff, same with thane).

I do agree that the non-full facial breather mask do look a bit silly at times. BioWare probably did for greater ease of identification. Although their colour schemes are quite unique anyway, so I'd find it hard to confuse my squad mate with a blue/yellow wearing merc.

on another note, does anyone else get annoyed that reloading a weapon removes Sheppard's cloak?

[mangosta71]

Which would be suicidal overconfidence. Yes her Biotics can protect her, but that dosn't mean an extra layer of armor wouldn't help. TiM would probably be more than happy to provide such armor, and he's certainly got the money for it.
Would that be the same confidence that leads the stupid bitch to run into melee range with every opponent, and jump up on top of cover rather than hide behind it, when she has no abilities that make her more resilient?

Seriously, Jack's AI has very little I in it. On the rare occasion that I actually take her with me, she spends more time in a pool of blood on the floor than contributing to the combat. Or rather, in a pool of blood on top of a short pile of boxes.

[Avilan the Grey]

Would that be the same confidence that leads the stupid bitch to run into melee range with every opponent, and jump up on top of cover rather than hide behind it, when she has no abilities that make her more resilient?

Seriously, Jack's AI has very little I in it. On the rare occasion that I actually take her with me, she spends more time in a pool of blood on the floor than contributing to the combat. Or rather, in a pool of blood on top of a short pile of boxes.

Jack... Needs guidance. Basically force her to not use the shotgun, and she stays at range. Also, her survivability drastically increases with her powers. When most of her powers are rank 3 or 4, she hardly gets killed because the people trying to kill her are screaming and flying all over the place.

[Jeivar]

Seriously, Jack's AI has very little I in it. On the rare occasion that I actually take her with me, she spends more time in a pool of blood on the floor than contributing to the combat. Or rather, in a pool of blood on top of a short pile of boxes.

Yeah. I found there to be a massive gap between Jack's supposed power and her ACTUAL power. When I played a Vanguard with maxed-out shockwave I didn't use the crazy biker bitch at all.

[Zevox]

Yeah, giving Jack a shotgun and only Shockwave and Pull for powers was... not a good design choice. If she's supposed to be a super-biotic, she needed Warp - having both of her powers nullified by any armor or shielding just sucks. And really, shotguns are only worth a damn on Vanguards using their charge ability. With anyone else, you're better off setting them to equip their pistol instead.

Zevox

[Avilan the Grey]

Yeah, giving Jack a shotgun and only Shockwave and Pull for powers was... not a good design choice. If she's supposed to be a super-biotic, she needed Warp - having both of her powers nullified by any armor or shielding just sucks. And really, shotguns are only worth a damn on Vanguards using their charge ability. With anyone else, you're better off setting them to equip their pistol instead.

Zevox

As I said, switch her from Shotgun, so she doesn't have to come close. Also, give her the group shockwave thing, and she will do much better. 90% of all enemies are human or krogan sized and they will all fly like ragdolls from an attack like that. If the enemy is bigger (Ymir Mechs) then it is your job to take them out anyway, since you are the heaviest hitter in the group 99% of the time.

As for shotguns as such...

If you have the firepower pack, give the people that automatically uses shotguns the Geth Plasma shotgun. Much longer range (but always give Grunt his special gun, it IS the best shotgun in the game).

If you do not, the only people that should be using shotgun are: Grunt. And you, if you are a vanguard, or if being swarmed by husks.

[Zevox]

As I said, switch her from Shotgun, so she doesn't have to come close. Also, give her the group shockwave thing, and she will do much better. 90% of all enemies are human or krogan sized and they will all fly like ragdolls from an attack like that. If the enemy is bigger (Ymir Mechs) then it is your job to take them out anyway, since you are the heaviest hitter in the group 99% of the time.
Trouble is that shockwave won't do that against anything with shields or armor, it'll just do a little damage (nothing impressive if memory serves). And even on Veteran (the difficulty I usually play on) armor and shields get pretty common into the second half of the game - from the way people have talked about it on the previous threads, non-Warp biotics are all but totally useless on Hardcore and Insanity due to how much armor and shields you see.

Zevox

[VanBuren]

If you have the firepower pack, give the people that automatically uses shotguns the Geth Plasma shotgun. Much longer range (but always give Grunt his special gun, it IS the best shotgun in the game).

Honestly? With the way the AI tends to use Shotguns at long range, I think he'd be better off with the Eviscerator or the Geth Plasma.

[Lord of the Helms]

Well, Samara isn't useless once you unlock her Reave Power, and Miranda and Thane both have Warp, but Jack is terribly useless on higher difficulties, and Jacob - yeah. But in general, I think the problem with Mass Effect II was them giving your companions only a measly 2 active powers (+ one loyalty power) compared to Shep's 5, which is frankly kind of pathetic. They should at least have put a third one in for variety, and given everyone at least one protection-busting power for decent balance at higher difficulties.

[Avilan the Grey]

Honestly? With the way the AI tends to use Shotguns at long range, I think he'd be better off with the Eviscerator or the Geth Plasma.

Grunt likes to run up to people; he charges just like enemy Krogans.

[VanBuren]

Grunt likes to run up to people; he charges just like enemy Krogans.

Yeah, but he doesn't wait until he's that close to start wasting ammo. At least not in my game.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yeah, but he doesn't wait until he's that close to start wasting ammo. At least not in my game.

Since NPCs don't actually use heatsinks but has unlimited ammo... who cares? :smallbiggrin:

of course it depends on enemies and scenario. If you know you are on a map where you will be fighting enemies at longer distances, have him use the assault rifle.