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ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 06:37 PM
Okay, what I'm trying to do is create the ultimate buff-bot.

To this end, I'm trying to combine the following:

DMM Chain to be combined with: GMW, Magic Vestments, other buffs as necessary

Inspire Courage, and possibly DFI

And I'm trying to figure out how to do this all with one non-gestalt character.

Bard/Cleric seems the most obvious, but doesn't really get the IC I'm wanting. Bardblade gets the IC, but doesn't get the other buffing.

I know Harmonious Knight ACF for Paladin replaces Detect Evil with IC, but only a flat +1, not advancing at all. That doesn't quite work for what I'm trying to do.

Basically, I'm wanting to give everyone a +25 to attack and damage, plus another 30 or so AC from various different sources. And be able to heal/remove negative effects.

Any ideas?

CyMage
2010-09-08, 06:47 PM
Here is a couple suggestions I can think of. Heartfire Fanner and Ur-priest because you just need to cram fast advancement classes into such a build.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 06:49 PM
Here is a couple suggestions I can think of. Heartfire Fanner and Ur-priest because you just need to cram fast advancement classes into such a build.

Also need Turn Undead, which you don't get from Ur Priest.

Where is Heartfire Fanner from?

Morph Bark
2010-09-08, 06:53 PM
Also need Turn Undead, which you don't get from Ur Priest.

Isn't Rebuke Undead also useable for DMM?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 06:54 PM
Isn't Rebuke Undead also useable for DMM?

I think so, but Ur Priest doesn't give that either.

Urpriest
2010-09-08, 07:00 PM
I think so, but Ur Priest doesn't give that either.

Yes it does, at second level. This is why most Ur-Priest builds are Urp2, even if they don't require second level spells.

Anyway, aside from the lack of the high level Cleric buffs, Divine Bard variant with Sacred Exorcist levels (if bards can qualify, which I think they can) will give you turning and the divine buff spells to use DMM Chain on. Sprinkle in some Warblade or Crusader for White Raven, just don't use so much that it keeps you from getting the best bard buff spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 07:06 PM
Yes it does, at second level. This is why most Ur-Priest builds are Urp2, even if they don't require second level spells.

Anyway, aside from the lack of the high level Cleric buffs, Divine Bard variant with Sacred Exorcist levels (if bards can qualify, which I think they can) will give you turning and the divine buff spells to use DMM Chain on. Sprinkle in some Warblade or Crusader for White Raven, just don't use so much that it keeps you from getting the best bard buff spells.

Divine Bard doesn't get GMW or Magic Vestments, much less any of the other buffs I'm looking for

The problem with UrPriest is the required Evil flavor, when I'm looking to make the ultimate Goody Two-Shoes who has eschewed combat for buffing the hell out of people. The other problem is that they cannot use Nightsticks Cracksticks to power DMM.

Urpriest
2010-09-08, 07:13 PM
Divine Bard doesn't get GMW or Magic Vestments, much less any of the other buffs I'm looking for

The problem with UrPriest is the required Evil flavor, when I'm looking to make the ultimate Goody Two-Shoes who has eschewed combat for buffing the hell out of people. The other problem is that they cannot use Nightsticks Cracksticks to power DMM.

Ur-Priests can use Nightsticks just as well as anyone, they add to turning or rebuking IIRC.

If you're really into the "Goody Two-Shoes" and "Eschewed Combat" tropes, Apostle of Peace also has rapid cleric casting, and has easier entry requirements, plus turn undead at first level rather than second. Just make sure your DM allows you to own a holy symbol.

Edit: Apostle of Peace isn't the full Cleric list, so it lacks some of the spells you would want. Be forewarned. Still a decent list, but I'm not sure it gets GMW, which may be a dealbreaker.

Darklord Xavez
2010-09-08, 07:16 PM
What would your initial post be in terms that someone not too familiar with optimization (i.e. me) would use? In other words, Death by Jargon strikes again!
-Xavez

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-08, 07:18 PM
Bard 1 / cleric 3 / geomancer 10 / warweaver 5 / cleric x

versitile spellcaster, extend. persist, DMM.

Now you can cast buffs to effect the whole party with any cleric buff spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 07:20 PM
Ur-Priests can use Nightsticks just as well as anyone, they add to turning or rebuking IIRC.

If you're really into the "Goody Two-Shoes" and "Eschewed Combat" tropes, Apostle of Peace also has rapid cleric casting, and has easier entry requirements, plus turn undead at first level rather than second. Just make sure your DM allows you to own a holy symbol.

No, UrPriests cannot use nightsticks. They only do Turn Undead, and require, specifically, Turn Undead to use.

Where is Apostle of Peace found?


What would your initial post be in terms that someone not too familiar with optimization (i.e. me) would use? In other words, Death by Jargon strikes again!
Bluntly, I'm looking for people who are familiar with optimization. In fact, I'm looking for people who are better at optimization than I am, which isn't easy to find.

If you do not understand what I stated in the original post, it is likely you would not be able to answer my question.

Urpriest
2010-09-08, 07:26 PM
No, UrPriests cannot use nightsticks. They only do Turn Undead, and require, specifically, Turn Undead to use.

Where is Apostle of Peace found?



Apostle of Peace is in book of Exalted Deeds. As I mentioned in an edit to my original post, it does lack some of the spells you would want.

My copy of Libris Mortis says that Nightsticks add to turn or rebuke. Unless there's been errata?

For the full Cleric list at high levels, Rainbow Servant would help, though it would delay your Inspire Courage (but just as much as Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace would).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 07:30 PM
Apostle of Peace is in book of Exalted Deeds. As I mentioned in an edit to my original post, it does lack some of the spells you would want.

My copy of Libris Mortis says that Nightsticks add to turn or rebuke. Unless there's been errata?

For the full Cleric list at high levels, Rainbow Servant would help, though it would delay your Inspire Courage (but just as much as Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace would).

Rainbow Servant would only be viable if it didn't require me to spend Spells Known on them after I get it, around ECL 16...

If there was something like a Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro with IC, that would be perfect to go with Rainbow Servant.

Honestly, the problem I'm running into is that either I get the buffs, or I get the IC. I'm trying to find something that does both.

Heck, if I just wanted the spells, there's a PrC in Faiths of Eberron which gets a bonus domain every level... tack on with Spontaneous Divine Caster so that all domain spells are on your Spells Known list for extra fun.

CyMage
2010-09-08, 07:50 PM
Also need Turn Undead, which you don't get from Ur Priest.

Where is Heartfire Fanner from?

HF is from Dragon #314.

As others pointed out, Ur-priest gains Rebuke Undead at 2nd level.

Also it would help if you actually looked at things before you vetoed them and here is why.


Nightstick: This black rod carved of darkly stained wood
is inset with religious symbols of various deities. Anyone who
possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains
four more uses of the ability per day.

If you want the character to be good, Ur-priest does have a non-evil adaptation section.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 07:53 PM
HF is from Dragon #314.

As others pointed out, Ur-priest gains Rebuke Undead at 2nd level.

Also it would help if you actually looked at things before you vetoed them and here is why.



If you want the character to be good, Ur-priest does have a non-evil adaptation section.

Yea, only I'd like to, yanno, do things by the rules... I could homebrew up a hybrid class in no time flat. I'm wanting to do it without rules changes.

Not a fan of Dragon Mag. More to the point, neither is the DM.

And both suggestions still fail to advance both IC and divine casting. It either does one or the other. Which screws the other's advancement.

Douglas
2010-09-08, 07:55 PM
What level will this character start at? Some of the more spectacular high level builds for this sort of thing require either some high level spells or several things in combination and are rather mediocre or even bad at lower levels.

Urpriest
2010-09-08, 07:55 PM
So Fochluchan Lyrist gives full bardic spell and music progression. A bard ur-lyrist build using a medium amount of cheese (evil loremaster friend for Druidic, for example) would give you a lot of what you want. You could likely even adapt such a build to use Apostle of Peace.

FMArthur
2010-09-08, 07:56 PM
There's an adaptation section for Ur-Priest that says the class could be refluffed to be used for worshippers of dead gods. Maybe you can use that in some way to let your DM waive the alignment restriction.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 08:00 PM
So Fochluchan Lyrist gives full bardic spell and music progression. A bard ur-lyrist build using a medium amount of cheese (evil loremaster friend for Druidic, for example) would give you a lot of what you want. You could likely even adapt such a build to use Apostle of Peace.

Better, but Fochluchan Lyricist requires, of all things, Evasion... how the frell am I supposed to get Evasion in what is supposed to be a Bard/Druid PrC that we are twisting into a Bard/Druid/UrPriest class?

Urpriest
2010-09-08, 08:04 PM
Better, but Fochluchan Lyricist requires, of all things, Evasion... how the frell am I supposed to get Evasion in what is supposed to be a Bard/Druid PrC that we are twisting into a Bard/Druid/UrPriest class?

A couple wasted levels are generally involved. If you look around for guides for Fochluchan Lyrist you'll find builds that can get you there with minimum waste. You won't want to take any Druid levels at all. Doing so is mildly cheesy, but your request requires some level of cheese. You probably won't have room for Crusader or Warblade, though it may be possible to replace some bard with it if you have the feats.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 08:06 PM
A couple wasted levels are generally involved. If you look around for guides for Fochluchan Lyrist you'll find builds that can get you there with minimum waste. You won't want to take any Druid levels at all. Doing so is mildly cheesy, but your request requires some level of cheese. You probably won't have room for Crusader or Warblade, though it may be possible to replace some bard with it if you have the feats.

How can you get the Druidic language without Druid? If I can manage that, I can go straight Bard/UrPriest/Lyricist

Private-Prinny
2010-09-08, 08:09 PM
How can you get the Druidic language without Druid? If I can manage that, I can go straight Bard/UrPriest/Lyricist

Find someone who's willing to teach it to you. A Loremaster's bonus languages don't exclude secret languages like Druidic, or you could learn it from a Blighter of something.

CyMage
2010-09-08, 08:20 PM
Yea, only I'd like to, yanno, do things by the rules... I could homebrew up a hybrid class in no time flat. I'm wanting to do it without rules changes.

Not a fan of Dragon Mag. More to the point, neither is the DM.

And both suggestions still fail to advance both IC and divine casting. It either does one or the other. Which screws the other's advancement.

I'd suggest you either put in some more information when you as for help, or do some research yourself first. Putting in 'No Dragon', or some other limits isn't that hard, but it stops us from wasting time answering your request so it can only be shot down.

If you consider the 'non-evil' Ur-priest to be not doing things by the rules, you will probably have issues with most of the stuff that will cover your request.

Draz74
2010-09-08, 08:25 PM
If there was something like a Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro with IC, that would be perfect to go with Rainbow Servant.

Beguiler 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Virtuoso 2, perhaps? Gets Level 9 spells, barely (assuming the text-not-table version of Rainbow Servant).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 08:38 PM
Beguiler 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Virtuoso 2, perhaps? Gets Level 9 spells, barely (assuming the text-not-table version of Rainbow Servant).

DMM starts pretty late in the build, though, and not much IC, only a +2?

Zaq
2010-09-08, 09:02 PM
Better, but Fochluchan Lyricist requires, of all things, Evasion... how the frell am I supposed to get Evasion in what is supposed to be a Bard/Druid PrC that we are twisting into a Bard/Druid/UrPriest class?

Easy. Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (Feet).

Yes, two feats is expensive, but if you're already going Ur-Priest, a little Dark Chaos Shuffle isn't really any cheesier.

Draz74
2010-09-08, 09:13 PM
DMM starts pretty late in the build, though, and not much IC, only a +2?

I think it's only a +1, depending how you interpret the wording in Prestige Bard. :smallfrown:

You can do the Sacred Exorcist dip earlier in the build (and thus get DMM started sooner) if you can figure out a way to get Dismissal or Dispel Evil before you get the Rainbow Servant capstone. (Can one of the earlier Rainbow Servant levels grant those spells? Or will your DM interpret Extra Spell that way? Or are either of them just on the normal Beguiler list?)

You can use the Versatile Spellcaster early-entry trick to get started on PrCs sooner, letting you end up with more levels in them instead of Beguiler. I think it will only save you one level, though, without additional early-entry cheese, because PrBard and Virtuoso have skill-rank prereqs. So ... hmm.

Urpriest
2010-09-08, 09:16 PM
The best option seems to be Fochluchan Lyrist with the most cheesy option acceptable for Evasion and Druidic, Ur-Priest (or Apostle of Peace) casting and Bard with perhaps a little Crusader thrown in.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-08, 09:16 PM
If you're really into the "Goody Two-Shoes" and "Eschewed Combat" tropes, Apostle of Peace also has rapid cleric casting, and has easier entry requirements, plus turn undead at first level rather than second. Just make sure your DM allows you to own a holy symbol.Or worship The Soverign Host (Eberron) and pick up Worldly Focus. No Holy Symbol needed...

But yeah, don't want to go the Apostle of Peace route due to the restricted spell list. Ur-Priest can work, but it eats your feats, and you don't get domain access. A straightforward Cleric, using DMM(Persistent Spell), DMM(Reach Spell), and DMM(Chain Spell), and stacking Nightsticks (LOTS of Nightsticks) does quite well. Domains Planning and Undeath get you Extend Spell and a copy of Extra Turning for cheap, meaning you need just two feats for each metamagic feat you want to apply at little cost (the feat itself, plus the DMM for it). So the feat list of a Human Cleric with those two domains would look like

1: Persistent Spell
HB: Divine Metamagic(persistent Spell)
3: Reach Spell
6: Divine Metamagic(reach spell)
9: Chain Spell
12: Divine Metamagic(Chain Spell)
15: Quicken Spell
18: Divine Metamagic(Quicken Spell)

And there you go. Death ward all day for the entire party? Reach (3 turn attempts), Chain (4 turn attempts), Persist (7 turn attempts), = 14 Turn Attempts and the base Death Ward spell (a 4th level spell slot). Freedom of Movement for the entire party? Same. Fast Healing for the entire party? Mass Vigor + DMM(Persistent Spell); 7 turn attempts. +4 Resistance, resistance to mind control, SR vs. opposite-aligned spells, and a surprise for opposite-aligned critters that strike you in melee? One of the Aura spells (8th level) + DMM(Persistent Spell). Good to go.

Your wealth is spent on:
Spell Focuses
A Ring of Enduring Arcana (Complete Mage)
A Strand of Prayer Beads (two, actually - you want the Beads of Karma)
An Orange Prism Ioun Stone (for the caster level increase)
Cracksticks Nightsticks (Libris Mortis). Get as many of these as you can.

Also pick up a copy of Spell Compendium - it's got some crazy-useful spells, when you can make them last all day, and apply them to the entire party.

Thurbane
2010-09-08, 09:19 PM
If you use War Weaver with something like Legacy Champion, you can go beyond the normal spell level limitation...

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-08, 11:27 PM
Or worship The Soverign Host (Eberron) and pick up Worldly Focus. No Holy Symbol needed...

But yeah, don't want to go the Apostle of Peace route due to the restricted spell list. Ur-Priest can work, but it eats your feats, and you don't get domain access. A straightforward Cleric, using DMM(Persistent Spell), DMM(Reach Spell), and DMM(Chain Spell), and stacking Nightsticks (LOTS of Nightsticks) does quite well. Domains Planning and Undeath get you Extend Spell and a copy of Extra Turning for cheap, meaning you need just two feats for each metamagic feat you want to apply at little cost (the feat itself, plus the DMM for it). So the feat list of a Human Cleric with those two domains would look like

1: Persistent Spell
HB: Divine Metamagic(persistent Spell)
3: Reach Spell
6: Divine Metamagic(reach spell)
9: Chain Spell
12: Divine Metamagic(Chain Spell)
15: Quicken Spell
18: Divine Metamagic(Quicken Spell)

And there you go. Death ward all day for the entire party? Reach (3 turn attempts), Chain (4 turn attempts), Persist (7 turn attempts), = 14 Turn Attempts and the base Death Ward spell (a 4th level spell slot). Freedom of Movement for the entire party? Same. Fast Healing for the entire party? Mass Vigor + DMM(Persistent Spell); 7 turn attempts. +4 Resistance, resistance to mind control, SR vs. opposite-aligned spells, and a surprise for opposite-aligned critters that strike you in melee? One of the Aura spells (8th level) + DMM(Persistent Spell). Good to go.

Your wealth is spent on:
Spell Focuses
A Ring of Enduring Arcana (Complete Mage)
A Strand of Prayer Beads (two, actually - you want the Beads of Karma)
An Orange Prism Ioun Stone (for the caster level increase)
Nightsticks (Libris Mortis). Get as many of these as you can.

Also pick up a copy of Spell Compendium - it's got some crazy-useful spells, when you can make them last all day, and apply them to the entire party.

One problem with this well-known build...

It doesn't have Inspire Courage.

I know how to make the ultimate buff-bot. In fact, I practically invented 'the other Clericzilla', about a year and a half ago, although it didn't bother with Persist, and chose domains based on buff spells rather than as prerequisites to get Persist Spell and DMM Persist.

The problem is in combining it with something that does Inspire Courage, and hopefully DFI.

And the only reason why I don't bother with War Weaver on top of Bard is simply because of the lack of the spells I want to buff with on the Bard list.

Heliomance
2010-09-09, 05:37 AM
Better, but Fochluchan Lyricist requires, of all things, Evasion... how the frell am I supposed to get Evasion in what is supposed to be a Bard/Druid PrC that we are twisting into a Bard/Druid/UrPriest class?

A ring of evasion works, as long as you never lose it.

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-09, 11:25 AM
Geomancer can turn divine spells into arcane spells also. I have wanted to try this for a cleric buff bot.

Eldariel
2010-09-09, 11:30 AM
A ring of evasion works, as long as you never lose it.

Shadow-template [LoM] also gets it; it's a +2 but with buyoff you can afford it quite easily.

Trouvere
2010-09-09, 02:28 PM
Initiate of Milil feat, Champions of Valor: cleric levels stack to determine which bardic music abilities you can use. Doesn't give any more daily uses of bardic music, though.

kestrel404
2010-09-09, 02:54 PM
I've been working on this myself for a super-leader build. Here's what I've got:
Cleric 1/Bard 3/Marshal 1/Human Paragon 3/Mythic Exemplar 7/? 5
Mythic exemplar stacks with bard for inspire courage, Marshal to give you 3 auras, and advances cleric casting (slowly). Starting charisma is 18, and early feats are Persist and DMM Persist - I know that's not what you're looking for, but hear me out.
Domains are Planning and Purification. Purification gets you recitation as a 3rd level spell. THIS is what you want to persist. Grants +3 luck bonus to all of your friends, all day, to attack, saves and AC!
Hope that helps.

Quirp
2010-09-09, 03:47 PM
I think Ur-Priest is still the best way to go, although using the adaptation section would make this build usable in real play:
Bard 3/Marshal 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mythic Exemplar 9/X 4 , where X is a class that progresses divine spell casting for at least 3 levels to get ninth level spells. You get only +2 IC this way, so this might be not enough for you. If you can find a class for X that does advance IC by two more levels, you can get +3 IC.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-09, 09:15 PM
Initiate of Milil feat, Champions of Valor: cleric levels stack to determine which bardic music abilities you can use. Doesn't give any more daily uses of bardic music, though.

Perfect! This is exactly what I'm looking for. I'll have to look it up.

Thanks, man!

dextercorvia
2010-09-09, 10:33 PM
Initiate of Milil feat, Champions of Valor: cleric levels stack to determine which bardic music abilities you can use. Doesn't give any more daily uses of bardic music, though.

It also doesn't appear to advance your IC bonus either.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-09, 11:33 PM
It also doesn't appear to advance your IC bonus either.

Reading the feat over, I would say that it is open to interpretation. It says 'for purpose of determining what kinds of bardic music one can use'. It depends on if you consider a higher version of IC to be a kind of bardic music or not.