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Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-08, 07:05 PM
I bring you my next homebrew the base class Arcane Slayer (Still not sure on the name).
I am still working on the fluffier aspect of the class, but for now I leave you the mechanical aspect of the class. As the name implies this class comes from my love of the mage slayer archetype, which IMO is not so uncommon as far as concepts go.

Right now I am thinking on tying it with the way I fluff arcane magic working in my world, it is pretty similar to how chakra works in the Naruto universe, arcane magic is all arround the creatures in the planes but also inside them, arcane casters learn how to manipulate that energy to produce the desired effects. The idea behind this is that Arcane Slayers have deeper conection to this energy and learn to manipulate it on a finer scale than most arcanist and as such they can interfere with the flow of arcane energy in other beings.


I am aiming for a high tier 3/low tier 2 on Jaronk's Tier system; but I am not a good judge on whether I am succeding or not.
Arcane Slayer

”One Must Understand that the best weapon against arcane magic, is the arcane energy itself”


HD: d6
Table 1-1 The Arcane Slayer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|
Special

1st|+0 |
2|
2|
2|Arcane Hunter +1, Feel the flow.
2nd|+1 |
3|
3|
3 | Arcane Censure Strike.
3rd|+2 |
3|
3 |
3|Evasion
4th|+3 |
4|
4|
4 | Ecletic Learning.
5th|+3 |
4|
4|
4|Arcane Hunter +2
6th|+4 |
5|
5|
5| Fast Censure strike
7th|+5 |
5|
5|
5| Mettle
8th|+6/+1 |
6|
6|
6 | Ecletic Learning
9th|+6/+1 |
6|
6|
6| Arcane Death Attack.
10th|+7/+2 |
7|
7|
7| Arcane Hunter +3, See the Flow
11th|+8/+3 |
7|
7|
7| Swift Censure strike
12th|+9/+4 |
8|
8|
8| Ecletic Learning
13th|+9/+4 |
8|
8|
8| Non-detection
14th|+10/+5 |
9|
9|
9|Improved Evasion
15th|+11/+6/+1 |
9|
9|
9| Arcane Hunter +4
16th|+12/+7/+2 |
10|
10|
10| Ecletic Learning
17th|+12/+7/+2 |
10|
10|
10| Read The Flow
18th|+13/+8/+3 |
11|
11|
11|
19th|+14/+9/+4 |
11|
11|
11|
20th|+15/+10/+5 |
12|
12|
12| Arcane Hunter +5 Arcane Avatar 3/day.
[/table]
Table 1-2 Spells per day
{table=head]
Level|
1st |
2nd|
3rd|
4th|
5th|
6th

1st |3|-|-|-|-|-

2nd |4|-|-|-|-|-

3rd |5|-|-|-|-|-

4th |6|3|-|-|-|-

5th |6|4|-|-|-|-

6th |6|5|3|-|-|-

7th |6|6|4|-|-|-

8th |6|6|5|3|-|-

9th |6|6|6|4|-|-

10th |6|6|6|5|3|-

11th |6|6|6|6|4|-

12th |6|6|6|6|5|3

13th |7|6|6|6|5|4

14th |7|6|6|6|6|5

15th |7|7|6|6|6|6

16th |7|7|6|6|6|6

17th |7|7|7|6|6|6

18th |7|7|7|6|6|6

19th |7|7|7|7|6|6

20th |7|7|7|7|6|6

[/table]

Table 1-3 Spell Known
{table=head]
Level|
1st|
2nd|
3rd |
4th|
5th|
6th

1st |3|-|- |-|-|-

2nd|3|-|-|-|-|-

3rd |4|-|-|-|-|-

4th |4|3|-|-|-|-

5th |5|3|-|-|-|-

6th |5|4|3|-|-|-

7th |6|4|4|-|-|-

8th |6|5|4|3|-|-

9th |6|5|5|3|-|-

10th |6|6|5|4|3|-

11th |6|6|6|4|3|-

12th |6|6|6|5|5|4

13th |6|6|6|5|6|4

14th |6|6|6|6|6|5

15th |6|6|6|6|6|5

16th |7|6|6|6|6|6

17th |7|6|6|6|6|6

18th |7|7|6|6|6|6

19th |7|7|6|6|6|6

20th |7|7|7|6|6|6

[/table]

Class skills (6+ Int skill points per level; x 4 at 1st level) : Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha) Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge(Religion) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str),Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).

Weapons and Armours Proficiencies : As an arcane slayer you are proficient with all simple martial weapons and light armour including light shields.

Class Abilities

Spells : An Arcane slayer can cast a number of Arcane spells which are drawn from the Assassin’ spell list and from any spell from the abjuration, conjuration[Teleport], divination, illusion and transmutation schools of the Sorcerer/Wizard list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time just like a Sorcerer can.
To cast a spell an Arcane slayer must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell level (Int 11 for 1st level spells, Int 12 for 2nd level spells and so forth) The difficulty class for a saving throw against a spell cast by an Arcane Slayer is 10 + Spell level + the Arcane Slayer Intelligence modifier.
Like other spell casters an Arcane Slayer can only cast a certain number of spells per day, her daily allotment of spells is given on the Table 1-2. In addition an Arcane Slayer receive bonus spells for a high Intelligence Modifier
An Arcane Slayer has a limited selection of spell known. An Arcane Slayer begins playing with three 1st level spell of your choice. At each new Arcane Slayer level you gain knowledge of one or more spells as shown on the table 1-3; unlike spells per day your intelligence modifier does not affect your number of spells known (at certain level you can expand your spell known with your Ecletic Knowledge class feature.) Starting at level 4 and every level thereafter an arcane slayer [/1] can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In essence she “loses” the old spell in place of the new one. The new spell must be the same spell level as that of the spell being exchanged.
Because of the somatic components of Arcane Slayer spells are relatively simple, they do not suffer arcane spell failure chance when wearing light armour and/or light shield. This abilities does not extend to spells gained by virtue of multiclassing or prestige classing

Arcane Hunter (EX): Your have studied how creatures capable to alter the flow of the arcane energies act and react, this knowledge gives you an edge when fighting, interacting or tracking them, you gain the benefits of Favoured Enemy (Arcanists) except as follows, the bonus is +1/five levels, you gain the bonus against creatures capable to cast arcane spells or capable of using spell-like abilities (including invocations)
Feel the Flow (EX): You have started to feel how the arcane energies flow around you and other creatures, you gain the ability to use Detect Magic as a SLA, activating it is a standard action. Your caster level is equal to your character level.
Arcane Censure Strike (SU) : Arcane Slayers learn to harness their natural ability to read the flow of arcane energy coursing through them and every creature, by manipulating this flow, they can attempt to disrupt the flow of the arcane energies in other beings. As a full round action that doesn’t provokes attacks of opportunity, an arcane slayer can spend a spell slot of the highest level it can cast to make an Arcane Censure Strike. It must make an attack against creatures capable of casting spells, or using Spell like abilities (including invocations), this state is known as Arcane Censure, if the attack hits the creature is rendered unable to cast spells, use invocations or use spell like abilities till the end of the Arcane Slayer next turn.
At level 6 the number of rounds a creature struck by an arcane censure strike is unable to use arcane abilities is equal to the Arcane Slayer’s Int modifier. At level 11 the Arcane Censure last for a number of rounds equal to the arcane slayer’s ½ class level + Int Modifier. At level 16th the Arcane Censure last for a number of rounds equal to the arcane slayer’s full class level + Int modifier
Evasion (EX) : See rogue’s ability
Ecletic Learning: At levels 4, 8, 12 and 16 you can add any arcane spell to you list of spell’s known as long as the spell level is no higher than the highest spell level you are able to cast, in case the spell appears on different list at different spell levels use the one that is of highest spell level.
Fast censure strike (SU) : As their powers increase Arcane Slayers are able to harness the arcane energies more quickly, you can use the Arcane Censure Strike class ability as a standard action.
Mettle (EX): See the Hexblade’s ( Complete Warrior) ability
See the Flow (SU) : The arcane slayer’s studies on the arcane energies gives him a much more deep understanding of the flow of energies. You can use Arcane Sight at-will as a spell like ability with CL equal to the arcane slayer class level.
Arcane Death Attack (EX or SU) : You can use the Death Attack as the Assassin’s (Dungeon Master Guide) with a DC equal to ½ you class level (round down) + Int Modifier, in addition you can speed up the process; as a swift action you can spend spell slots to reduce the number of study rounds needed to launch a l Death Attack, for every 2 spells level you spend you can reduce the number of study rounds by one, to a maximum of 6 spell levels to make a Death Attack in the same round you decided to use the Death Attacks. If the creature passes the save it is instead stunned for a round.
Swift censure strike (SU) : You learn to harness the arcane energies even faster, you can now use you Arcane Censure Strike as an attack action.
Non-detection (SU) : Starting at level 13th you benefit from the effect of a Non-detection spell with CL equal to you class level)
Improved Evasion (EX) : See the rogue’s special ability.
Read the flow (SU) At level 14th you have completely learned to read the flow of arcane energies, you can use Greater Arcane Sight as an at- will Spell like ability with CL equal to your class level.
Arcane Avatar (SU) : Three times per day an arcane slayer of 20th level can enter an state where she becomes one with the arcane energy that infuses his being, while in this state an Arcane Slayer gain the following benefits.

Gain SR 45
Can use its Arcane Censure Strike without sacrificing spell slots
An Arcane Slayer can decide to modify his spells with the Quicken Spell & Extend spell Metamagic feats even if he does not possess them, he needs not to use a full round action to cast the spells affected by the metamagic.
An enemy struck by an Arcane Censure Strike must make a will save DC 20+Arcane Slayer int modifier or lose the ability to cast arcane spells, use Spell likes abilities (including invocations) forever. Only extremely powerful magic such as miracle or Wish can return the ability to use arcane abilities.
[I]Arcane Death Attacks DC increases to 20+ int modifier.

This state last for a number of rounds equal to the Arcane Slayer Int modifier + her Con modifier: she can end this effect prematurely, after the effect ends the Arcane Slayer is exhausted and can’t enter the Arcane Avatar stance until she has at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest.


Levels 18 and 19 seem dead, but I don't have even a remote idea on a good way to fill them, I am open to suggestions.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-11, 04:21 PM
OK, well... an Arcane Slayer is exceedingly difficult to do. Arcanists are just that powerful.

First, the spells are weak-ish but that's probably appropriate for Tier 3. I think that's OK.

Arcane Hunter is weaker than the Ranger equivalent, right? Well, Favored Enemy is ridiculously weak as it is, so that feature is basically a bit of flavor and little more.

Feel the Flow has a typo in the text, where it's called "Fell the Flow". Other than that, at-will Detect Magic is decent but not amazing. Still, fitting.

Arcane Censure has a few problems. One, it depends on hitting a spellcaster; most of the time, doing that is damn near impossible, and besides, most of the time, if you manage to hit a arcanist you can probably kill them. It's hitting them in the first place that's problematic. Secondly, if you do hit with it, it might as well kill the arcanist; few arcanists will have much ability to do anything after being hit with it. Neither is good. I suggest replacing it with some ability to interrupt spells at a range, but have to make a check to interrupt each individually.

Evasion is nice but not amazing. Mettle isn't even quite as nice.

Eclectic Learning seems pretty solid, though I worry that, for example, the fact that Clerics get some spells later than Wizards means that the Arcane Slayer gets them later than they ought to. Still, better to play it safe, I suppose.

Arcane Death Attack seems pretty cool, burning spell slots on it and getting Stunned on a successful save is pretty good.

See the Flow is kinda meh; it's not terribly expensive to just get Permanency cast on Arcane Sight at that level. Has the advantage in that it can't just be dispelled, I suppose. Still, it's a 3rd level spell at 10th level, so basically, it's fluff.

Non-Detection is meh, Read the Flow is OK ish, but not amazing. More mostly-fluff.

Arcane Avatar kinda comes out of nowhere. The SR is good - it's very high, but with Assay Spell Resistance and SR: No spells, that's not a problem. But up until now you've had no SR at all! That seems strange; you should lead up to this with some SR. Does the Extend/Quicken thing eliminate the spell level increase or not? At 20th, maybe it should. The "forever" Censure, though, is a really bad idea - imagine if a player got hit with that! You've just killed his character, permanently, no chance of resurrection. Not many players will appreciate that. As a PC ability, forever's just not that important - at 20th level you have plenty of ways of eliminating an enemy permanently. The Death Attack DC thing makes sense and I like that.


Anyway, overall, this is probably a low-ish Tier 3. Arcane Censure and the high-end dead levels are the biggest problems. Some SR at lower levels would also not be amiss. I hope that helps!

BladeofOblivion
2010-09-11, 04:39 PM
As an Idea, I remember seeing another anti-mage class that had an ability called Mage Finder at level 5. It allowed you to ignore miss chances related to spells and to always know which mirror image was real.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-11, 10:34 PM
OK, well... an Arcane Slayer is exceedingly difficult to do. Arcanists are just that powerful.

First, the spells are weak-ish but that's probably appropriate for Tier 3. I think that's OK.

Kinda the point, I got them the essential abilities to fight mages, defenses (abjuration and Illusion), buffs (transmutations) some mobility and a bit of versatility (cobjuration [teleport]) and the assassin spell to help with some offensive spells (ice knife and fire shurikens are good offenses and some of my favorite spells.

Arcane Hunter is weaker than the Ranger equivalent, right? Well, Favored Enemy is ridiculously weak as it is, so that feature is basically a bit of flavor and little more.
Didn't wanna to steal the Rangers thunder, plus it works against things that normal Arcane hunter don't work against (creatures with spell-like abilities)

Feel the Flow has a typo in the text, where it's called "Fell the Flow". Other than that, at-will Detect Magic is decent but not amazing. Still, fitting.
Thanks for the heads up on the typo.

Arcane Censure has a few problems. One, it depends on hitting a spellcaster; most of the time, doing that is damn near impossible, and besides, most of the time, if you manage to hit a arcanist you can probably kill them. It's hitting them in the first place that's problematic. Secondly, if you do hit with it, it might as well kill the arcanist; few arcanists will have much ability to do anything after being hit with it. Neither is good. I suggest replacing it with some ability to interrupt spells at a range, but have to make a check to interrupt each individually.
The first idea I had concerning this ability was something similar to Mage Slayer feat line; but without the CL penalty...maybe something along the lines of a ToB stance, that alerts the Arcane Slayer when someone/thing is trying to cast and let him make an immediate action attack to try to interrupt it...maybe scaling the DC and number of attacks.

Evasion is nice but not amazing. Mettle isn't even quite as nice.
Just something to make killing an arcane slayer trough spells (AoE and save or X mostly) more difficult

Eclectic Learning seems pretty solid, though I worry that, for example, the fact that Clerics get some spells later than Wizards means that the Arcane Slayer gets them later than they ought to. Still, better to play it safe, I suppose.
The RAI is that he could only take spells that are one arcane spellcasters list, I forgot about spells that are also divine...in that case it must use the arcane version (had to edit that in)

Arcane Death Attack seems pretty cool, burning spell slots on it and getting Stunned on a successful save is pretty good.
Glad you liked, death attack is one of my favorite abilities in the game; but it is HARD to pull it off, and even then is quite easy to become immune to it

See the Flow is kinda meh; it's not terribly expensive to just get Permanency cast on Arcane Sight at that level. Has the advantage in that it can't just be dispelled, I suppose. Still, it's a 3rd level spell at 10th level, so basically, it's fluff.
...I didn't know it was a third level spell, I thought it was a higher level, I'll see what I can come up with.

Non-Detection is meh, Read the Flow is OK ish, but not amazing. More mostly-fluff.
Would mind-blank and Non-detection be better? the purpose is enabling the arcane slaying use stealth against mage (nigh imposible thanks to many divinations)

Arcane Avatar kinda comes out of nowhere. The SR is good - it's very high, but with Assay Spell Resistance and SR: No spells, that's not a problem. But up until now you've had no SR at all! That seems strange; you should lead up to this with some SR. Does the Extend/Quicken thing eliminate the spell level increase or not? At 20th, maybe it should. The "forever" Censure, though, is a really bad idea - imagine if a player got hit with that! You've just killed his character, permanently, no chance of resurrection. Not many players will appreciate that. As a PC ability, forever's just not that important - at 20th level you have plenty of ways of eliminating an enemy permanently. The Death Attack DC thing makes sense and I like that.
To be honest the Arcane Avatar came up out of the blue when I was brainstorming the capstone, I though it needed to be something impressive. :shrugs:
The intent on the metamagic is to use it without spell slot adjustment, yeah the improvement on Arcane Censure just make the duration last 20 days or something like that (I did include that it can be "cured" through wish or miracle and it only works on arcane spellcasters.

Anyway, overall, this is probably a low-ish Tier 3. Arcane Censure and the high-end dead levels are the biggest problems. Some SR at lower levels would also not be amiss. I hope that helps!
...can you remind me does SR applies even when self targeting(buffing) or do you need it to lower like normal?

Also thanks I really appreciate that you looked into the Arcane Slayer :biggrin:


As an Idea, I remember seeing another anti-mage class that had an ability called Mage Finder at level 5. It allowed you to ignore miss chances related to spells and to always know which mirror image was real.

Maybe I'll include it in the rework of arcane censure. thanks for the idea.

Thanks for the insight given, now what do you think about the chassis? should I improve the HD? What about the saves/BAB? SKills list? Skill points?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-12, 06:05 PM
...can you remind me does SR applies even when self targeting(buffing) or do you need it to lower like normal?
Pretty sure you can lower it but it requires a Standard Action to raise and lower. I suggest getting rid of that as part of the class feature.


Also thanks I really appreciate that you looked into the Arcane Slayer :biggrin:
Not a problem!


Thanks for the insight given, now what do you think about the chassis? should I improve the HD? What about the saves/BAB? SKills list? Skill points?
d6 is kind of low; I'd go with d8. All saves is pretty damn rare, and the classes that have it are hideously bad; that said, I'm not sure it's bad here. Certainly fitting. You need to say "6+Int skill points per level", but otherwise that seems OK. I'd maybe consider Use Magic Device for this class, but otherwise it looks fine.

Zaydos
2010-09-12, 06:32 PM
DMG page 298: A creature's spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

It's on the right side of the page and there are two paragraphs between that sentence (and paragraph) and the subheader "When Spell Resistance Applies".

DragoonWraith
2010-09-12, 07:12 PM
Ah, good point.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-12, 07:54 PM
Pretty sure you can lower it but it requires a Standard Action to raise and lower. I suggest getting rid of that as part of the class feature.


Not a problem!


d6 is kind of low; I'd go with d8. All saves is pretty damn rare, and the classes that have it are hideously bad; that said, I'm not sure it's bad here. Certainly fitting. You need to say "6+Int skill points per level", but otherwise that seems OK. I'd maybe consider Use Magic Device for this class, but otherwise it looks fine.

Ok I'll consider bumping the HD, and abotu UMD I was thinking on it, but by virtue of its spellcastig he has access to many spells (certainly he is missing stuff from conjuration and necromancy) in wand/scroll form... I will consider it.


DMG page 298: A creature's spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

It's on the right side of the page and there are two paragraphs between that sentence (and paragraph) and the subheader "When Spell Resistance Applies".

Thank you very much for clarifying that.


I don't have time today to work on it, I'll try to work on it in the week.

Again thanks this is helping me a lot

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-21, 04:39 PM
Here are my first ideas on how to make a better/useable Arcane Censure.



Crunch-wise simiar to the marks of 4e, in the sense that the Arcane Hunter selects a target and activates an effect when certain trigger condition is met
When a marked caste, uses a spell or sla the Arcane hunter can spend a spell slot of the highest level to teleport next to the caster and make an attack as a immediate action
Scaling range of teleport, starting on maybe 30fts and then increasing it
Letting the Arcane slayer make more attacks per teleport
Adding 1/2 class level to the check to aboid fizzlineg the spell
Maybe give the benefits of ignore magical concealment and pierce magical protections, without the CL loss


Also thinking on adding SR = to HD+11 starting at level 5